Talk:Enhanced strength - Revision history

imported>PJDEP at 04:47, 5 March 2010

2010-03-05T04:47:58Z

← Older revision	Revision as of 04:47, 5 March 2010
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imported>PJDEP at 04:47, 5 March 2010

2010-03-05T04:47:58Z

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imported>PJDEP: added signature

2010-03-03T20:01:47Z

added signature

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	******* Yup. Time consuming, but fun. :) --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 11:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)		******* Yup. Time consuming, but fun. :) --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 11:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	***On the subject of what constitutues a major difference...what about the fact that Knox's ability is active, while everyone else save possibly Micheal's is passive and there all the time? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:47, 12 February 2010 (EST)		***On the subject of what constitutues a major difference...what about the fact that Knox's ability is active, while everyone else save possibly Micheal's is passive and there all the time? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:47, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	****But we can't even argue that. The existence of fear is not something he turns on, it's just as passive as the rest of the ability.		****But we can't even argue that. The existence of fear is not something he turns on, it's just as passive as the rest of the ability.--[[User:Ricard Desi\|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi\|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi\|c]]) 19:48, 12 February, 2010 (EST)
	*****But Knox doesn't get stronger just when people are scared. He has to actually "draw in" the fear to boost his own strength, right? This is where all the hissing and so on comes from, and his AT states he has to actually take the fear and convert it into the strength. Therefore, it seems active to me. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)		*****But Knox doesn't get stronger just when people are scared. He has to actually "draw in" the fear to boost his own strength, right? This is where all the hissing and so on comes from, and his AT states he has to actually take the fear and convert it into the strength. Therefore, it seems active to me. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)

imported>Piemanmoo: /* Can we split this? */

2010-03-03T05:29:07Z

Can we split this?

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	****It does seem that is ability is activated by something hence the glowing tattoos (and eyes?). So with that and what Sylar said, it's safe to say that Micheal has Enhanced strength. --[[User:OutbackZack\|OutbackZack]] 01:22, 12 February 2010 (EST)		****It does seem that is ability is activated by something hence the glowing tattoos (and eyes?). So with that and what Sylar said, it's safe to say that Micheal has Enhanced strength. --[[User:OutbackZack\|OutbackZack]] 01:22, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	***** Yep, that's correct. Forgot about that. You cool with that, Pieman? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 01:36, 12 February 2010 (EST)		***** Yep, that's correct. Forgot about that. You cool with that, Pieman? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 01:36, 12 February 2010 (EST)
			******Michael seemed to be able to use his ability even though Sylar wasn't scared of him. It would also seem weird that two level 5 escapees would have the exact same ability. Even though Sylar said he has enhanced strength, from what we saw it was still more close to super strength. But whatever, I dont care either way.--[[User:Piemanmoo\|Piemanmoo]] 00:29, 3 March 2010 (EST)
	* I was asked to give my thoughts on this, so I've read the prior discussion to see if anything had been added recently. The only thing I noticed was regarding "freezing", where Ryan explained a guideline that we need to follow what was given to us for the name of an ability. Then, the discussion was brought up again here, pointing out again the explicit mentioning of 'super strength' in the show. For me, I haven't seen anything new mentioned that would change my mind into thinking that there needed to be a split. Since the assignment tracker (AT) overrules the episode character statements in naming the ability, if we had a new AT for someone else with another form of enhanced strength, then I could see splitting off Niki's ability. If say, a certain lumberjack named Paul Bunyan were to make an appearance, and someone noted him as having an ability called 'oxen strength' (being as strong as an ox), then I think he would also appear on the enhanced strength page (unless the ability name showed up in an AT). The point being that the main result of the ability was the same (enhancement of strength), even though the means might be different, and those are the abilities that we can group together.--[[User:MiamiVolts\|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts\|talk]]) 04:34, 12 February 2010 (EST)		* I was asked to give my thoughts on this, so I've read the prior discussion to see if anything had been added recently. The only thing I noticed was regarding "freezing", where Ryan explained a guideline that we need to follow what was given to us for the name of an ability. Then, the discussion was brought up again here, pointing out again the explicit mentioning of 'super strength' in the show. For me, I haven't seen anything new mentioned that would change my mind into thinking that there needed to be a split. Since the assignment tracker (AT) overrules the episode character statements in naming the ability, if we had a new AT for someone else with another form of enhanced strength, then I could see splitting off Niki's ability. If say, a certain lumberjack named Paul Bunyan were to make an appearance, and someone noted him as having an ability called 'oxen strength' (being as strong as an ox), then I think he would also appear on the enhanced strength page (unless the ability name showed up in an AT). The point being that the main result of the ability was the same (enhancement of strength), even though the means might be different, and those are the abilities that we can group together.--[[User:MiamiVolts\|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts\|talk]]) 04:34, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	** I agree with MV. I just don't see enough difference in the (super/enhanced) strength abilities to merit a split. At one point, Matt and Maury's usages of Telepathy were very different, but we didnt split Telepathy because the fundamental ability wasn't 2 different abilities. "Exceptional" Strength is still '''one fundamental ability''', not two different abilities, even if it's adherents arrived with it from different triggers.(Hulk=Gamma Rays and Rage, Superman=Yellow Sun, Popeye=Spinach, Niki=Synthetic untriggered, Knox=fear triggered). <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer\|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer\|talk]]) 02/12/2010 08:53 (EST)</small>		** I agree with MV. I just don't see enough difference in the (super/enhanced) strength abilities to merit a split. At one point, Matt and Maury's usages of Telepathy were very different, but we didnt split Telepathy because the fundamental ability wasn't 2 different abilities. "Exceptional" Strength is still '''one fundamental ability''', not two different abilities, even if it's adherents arrived with it from different triggers.(Hulk=Gamma Rays and Rage, Superman=Yellow Sun, Popeye=Spinach, Niki=Synthetic untriggered, Knox=fear triggered). <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer\|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer\|talk]]) 02/12/2010 08:53 (EST)</small>

imported>MIDAS: /* Terrakinesis analogy */

2010-03-01T18:52:19Z

Terrakinesis analogy

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	***I'm not sure the Samuel/Knox analogy is an accurate one. Samuel's power behaves in exactly the same way as all other Terrakinetics- he can manipulate the earth. All that makes him different is that he can do this more adeptly and easily the more people surround him. Knox's power does ''not'' behave in the same way as Niki or Scott's. To use a computer analogy, for Samuel the process is the same (moving the earth), but the output is different (he can perform feats well beyond those of other Terrakinetics). Knox, on the other hand, has it the other way around- his process is entirely different to Niki's (in that he must suck in the fear, as indicated in his AT, and Niki doesn't need to do anything), but the output in both cases is the same (they gain larger-then-normal strength). Therefore, we are right to list Samuel with the other Terrakinetics, and wrong to list Knox with the rest of our strongmen (and women), because it's the mechanism of the actual power itself that determines what it is, not its effects. Does that make sense? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 06:58, 15 February 2010 (EST)		***I'm not sure the Samuel/Knox analogy is an accurate one. Samuel's power behaves in exactly the same way as all other Terrakinetics- he can manipulate the earth. All that makes him different is that he can do this more adeptly and easily the more people surround him. Knox's power does ''not'' behave in the same way as Niki or Scott's. To use a computer analogy, for Samuel the process is the same (moving the earth), but the output is different (he can perform feats well beyond those of other Terrakinetics). Knox, on the other hand, has it the other way around- his process is entirely different to Niki's (in that he must suck in the fear, as indicated in his AT, and Niki doesn't need to do anything), but the output in both cases is the same (they gain larger-then-normal strength). Therefore, we are right to list Samuel with the other Terrakinetics, and wrong to list Knox with the rest of our strongmen (and women), because it's the mechanism of the actual power itself that determines what it is, not its effects. Does that make sense? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 06:58, 15 February 2010 (EST)

	Absolutely. I've always thought naming Niki's and Knox's abilities as the same is ridiculous, whatever the Assignment Tracker says. Micah has referred to it as Super strength only for Niki. Scott's ability was never really named. Michael and Knox's were both called Enhanced. As for Mohinder, I would say the same for Niki. If the page is nominated for a name change, then i think it should be changed, or decided on and the name change thing removed, as quickly as possible.		Absolutely. I've always thought naming Niki's and Knox's abilities as the same is ridiculous, whatever the Assignment Tracker says. Micah has referred to it as Super strength only for Niki. Scott's ability was never really named. Michael and Knox's were both called Enhanced. As for Mohinder, I would say the same for Niki. If the page is nominated for a name change, then i think it should be changed, or decided on and the name change thing removed, as quickly as possible. [[User:MIDAS\|MIDAS]] 13:52, 1 March 2010 (EST)

imported>MIDAS: /* Terrakinesis analogy */

2010-03-01T18:51:57Z

Terrakinesis analogy

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	** Though I do see your point, I think it's a bit different from Knox, since we know Samuel retains a minimal amount of power when alone, but there is no indication Knox has ''any'' ability when not in the presence of fear. And Knox's power isn't called 'strength...' some adjective is necessary. Also, tricky ground (pun intended) there, though. (('''This next part can be mostly ignored, as it is all completely hypothetical and does not need to be addressed...I just like seeing myself type sometimes''' ;))...It seems to imply that if we get another character that can manipulate the earth without the amplifying effect, we group them, and just say 'Samuel could do more because of the amplification part of his manifestation of the ability.' We'd also have to group characters that have more specific earth manipulation skills (eg - ability to cause earthquakes, but nothing else) there as well. The main problem would come, however, if we got an AT for someone else called 'seismic disruption' or something like that. Since we are effectively ignoring aspects of Samuel's ability in the name (meaning it is implied with plain old terrakinesis), we can assume they are byproducts and we'd have to change the page name if we got a better source (which isn't hard to do considering we don't have a canon one to begin with). --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 12:02, 12 February 2010 (EST)		** Though I do see your point, I think it's a bit different from Knox, since we know Samuel retains a minimal amount of power when alone, but there is no indication Knox has ''any'' ability when not in the presence of fear. And Knox's power isn't called 'strength...' some adjective is necessary. Also, tricky ground (pun intended) there, though. (('''This next part can be mostly ignored, as it is all completely hypothetical and does not need to be addressed...I just like seeing myself type sometimes''' ;))...It seems to imply that if we get another character that can manipulate the earth without the amplifying effect, we group them, and just say 'Samuel could do more because of the amplification part of his manifestation of the ability.' We'd also have to group characters that have more specific earth manipulation skills (eg - ability to cause earthquakes, but nothing else) there as well. The main problem would come, however, if we got an AT for someone else called 'seismic disruption' or something like that. Since we are effectively ignoring aspects of Samuel's ability in the name (meaning it is implied with plain old terrakinesis), we can assume they are byproducts and we'd have to change the page name if we got a better source (which isn't hard to do considering we don't have a canon one to begin with). --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 12:02, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	***I'm not sure the Samuel/Knox analogy is an accurate one. Samuel's power behaves in exactly the same way as all other Terrakinetics- he can manipulate the earth. All that makes him different is that he can do this more adeptly and easily the more people surround him. Knox's power does ''not'' behave in the same way as Niki or Scott's. To use a computer analogy, for Samuel the process is the same (moving the earth), but the output is different (he can perform feats well beyond those of other Terrakinetics). Knox, on the other hand, has it the other way around- his process is entirely different to Niki's (in that he must suck in the fear, as indicated in his AT, and Niki doesn't need to do anything), but the output in both cases is the same (they gain larger-then-normal strength). Therefore, we are right to list Samuel with the other Terrakinetics, and wrong to list Knox with the rest of our strongmen (and women), because it's the mechanism of the actual power itself that determines what it is, not its effects. Does that make sense? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 06:58, 15 February 2010 (EST)		***I'm not sure the Samuel/Knox analogy is an accurate one. Samuel's power behaves in exactly the same way as all other Terrakinetics- he can manipulate the earth. All that makes him different is that he can do this more adeptly and easily the more people surround him. Knox's power does ''not'' behave in the same way as Niki or Scott's. To use a computer analogy, for Samuel the process is the same (moving the earth), but the output is different (he can perform feats well beyond those of other Terrakinetics). Knox, on the other hand, has it the other way around- his process is entirely different to Niki's (in that he must suck in the fear, as indicated in his AT, and Niki doesn't need to do anything), but the output in both cases is the same (they gain larger-then-normal strength). Therefore, we are right to list Samuel with the other Terrakinetics, and wrong to list Knox with the rest of our strongmen (and women), because it's the mechanism of the actual power itself that determines what it is, not its effects. Does that make sense? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 06:58, 15 February 2010 (EST)

			Absolutely. I've always thought naming Niki's and Knox's abilities as the same is ridiculous, whatever the Assignment Tracker says. Micah has referred to it as Super strength only for Niki. Scott's ability was never really named. Michael and Knox's were both called Enhanced. As for Mohinder, I would say the same for Niki. If the page is nominated for a name change, then i think it should be changed, or decided on and the name change thing removed, as quickly as possible.

imported>PJDEP: /* Poll */

2010-02-18T09:29:41Z

Poll

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	#::::: Not really, enhanced hearing and memory, at first followed this rule, but both were named as such in Sylar's AT profile, and memory was named in Matt Neuenberg's AT. Synesthesia is on the verge of a rename, so there is no trouble at all. We also changed enhanced speed to super speed without renaming all abilities, no reason to do this now. [[User:Intuitive Empath\|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath\|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath\|Contributions]] 14:29, 23 January 2010 (EST)		#::::: Not really, enhanced hearing and memory, at first followed this rule, but both were named as such in Sylar's AT profile, and memory was named in Matt Neuenberg's AT. Synesthesia is on the verge of a rename, so there is no trouble at all. We also changed enhanced speed to super speed without renaming all abilities, no reason to do this now. [[User:Intuitive Empath\|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath\|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath\|Contributions]] 14:29, 23 January 2010 (EST)
	# Knox & Michael are both defined as having "enhanced strength." Michael & Niki have their tattoos linked to their power in a mysterious, undefined way. So those three have the same ability, making this debate very odd, as Niki is the source of the term "super strength." Mohinder was defined by the writers as having "enhanced strength" as well, so, if we were fair in the split, it'd be Niki, Mohinder, Knox, Michael (Enhanced strength / Super strength) vs. Scott ("Scott's ability?"). That doesn't seem like it's worth a split to me.--[[User:Tim Thomason\|Tim Thomason]] 04:20, 18 February 2010 (EST)		# Knox & Michael are both defined as having "enhanced strength." Michael & Niki have their tattoos linked to their power in a mysterious, undefined way. So those three have the same ability, making this debate very odd, as Niki is the source of the term "super strength." Mohinder was defined by the writers as having "enhanced strength" as well, so, if we were fair in the split, it'd be Niki, Mohinder, Knox, Michael (Enhanced strength / Super strength) vs. Scott ("Scott's ability?"). That doesn't seem like it's worth a split to me.--[[User:Tim Thomason\|Tim Thomason]] 04:20, 18 February 2010 (EST)
			#:The motion has been defeated, so don't worry about it :)--[[User:PJDEP\|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP\|Need further explanation?]] 04:29, 18 February 2010 (EST)

	== "Super" and "Enhanced" ==		== "Super" and "Enhanced" ==

imported>Tim Thomason: /* Poll */

2010-02-18T09:20:42Z

Poll

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	#:::: Eh, I guess you're right, but if the argument to split is that "Enhanced means made better by something else and super means naturally better", then we're gonna have to rename everything else. Seems like a hassle to me.--[[User:Riddler\|Riddler]] 14:22, 23 January 2010 (EST)		#:::: Eh, I guess you're right, but if the argument to split is that "Enhanced means made better by something else and super means naturally better", then we're gonna have to rename everything else. Seems like a hassle to me.--[[User:Riddler\|Riddler]] 14:22, 23 January 2010 (EST)
	#::::: Not really, enhanced hearing and memory, at first followed this rule, but both were named as such in Sylar's AT profile, and memory was named in Matt Neuenberg's AT. Synesthesia is on the verge of a rename, so there is no trouble at all. We also changed enhanced speed to super speed without renaming all abilities, no reason to do this now. [[User:Intuitive Empath\|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath\|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath\|Contributions]] 14:29, 23 January 2010 (EST)		#::::: Not really, enhanced hearing and memory, at first followed this rule, but both were named as such in Sylar's AT profile, and memory was named in Matt Neuenberg's AT. Synesthesia is on the verge of a rename, so there is no trouble at all. We also changed enhanced speed to super speed without renaming all abilities, no reason to do this now. [[User:Intuitive Empath\|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath\|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath\|Contributions]] 14:29, 23 January 2010 (EST)
			# Knox & Michael are both defined as having "enhanced strength." Michael & Niki have their tattoos linked to their power in a mysterious, undefined way. So those three have the same ability, making this debate very odd, as Niki is the source of the term "super strength." Mohinder was defined by the writers as having "enhanced strength" as well, so, if we were fair in the split, it'd be Niki, Mohinder, Knox, Michael (Enhanced strength / Super strength) vs. Scott ("Scott's ability?"). That doesn't seem like it's worth a split to me.--[[User:Tim Thomason\|Tim Thomason]] 04:20, 18 February 2010 (EST)

	== "Super" and "Enhanced" ==		== "Super" and "Enhanced" ==

imported>Swmystery: /* Terrakinesis analogy */

2010-02-15T11:58:46Z

Terrakinesis analogy

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	*That actually does make a lot of sense, hadn't thought of it that way. --[[User:Ricard Desi\|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi\|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi\|c]]) 10:13, 12 February 2010 (EST)		*That actually does make a lot of sense, hadn't thought of it that way. --[[User:Ricard Desi\|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi\|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi\|c]]) 10:13, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	** Though I do see your point, I think it's a bit different from Knox, since we know Samuel retains a minimal amount of power when alone, but there is no indication Knox has ''any'' ability when not in the presence of fear. And Knox's power isn't called 'strength...' some adjective is necessary. Also, tricky ground (pun intended) there, though. (('''This next part can be mostly ignored, as it is all completely hypothetical and does not need to be addressed...I just like seeing myself type sometimes''' ;))...It seems to imply that if we get another character that can manipulate the earth without the amplifying effect, we group them, and just say 'Samuel could do more because of the amplification part of his manifestation of the ability.' We'd also have to group characters that have more specific earth manipulation skills (eg - ability to cause earthquakes, but nothing else) there as well. The main problem would come, however, if we got an AT for someone else called 'seismic disruption' or something like that. Since we are effectively ignoring aspects of Samuel's ability in the name (meaning it is implied with plain old terrakinesis), we can assume they are byproducts and we'd have to change the page name if we got a better source (which isn't hard to do considering we don't have a canon one to begin with). --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 12:02, 12 February 2010 (EST)		** Though I do see your point, I think it's a bit different from Knox, since we know Samuel retains a minimal amount of power when alone, but there is no indication Knox has ''any'' ability when not in the presence of fear. And Knox's power isn't called 'strength...' some adjective is necessary. Also, tricky ground (pun intended) there, though. (('''This next part can be mostly ignored, as it is all completely hypothetical and does not need to be addressed...I just like seeing myself type sometimes''' ;))...It seems to imply that if we get another character that can manipulate the earth without the amplifying effect, we group them, and just say 'Samuel could do more because of the amplification part of his manifestation of the ability.' We'd also have to group characters that have more specific earth manipulation skills (eg - ability to cause earthquakes, but nothing else) there as well. The main problem would come, however, if we got an AT for someone else called 'seismic disruption' or something like that. Since we are effectively ignoring aspects of Samuel's ability in the name (meaning it is implied with plain old terrakinesis), we can assume they are byproducts and we'd have to change the page name if we got a better source (which isn't hard to do considering we don't have a canon one to begin with). --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 12:02, 12 February 2010 (EST)
			***I'm not sure the Samuel/Knox analogy is an accurate one. Samuel's power behaves in exactly the same way as all other Terrakinetics- he can manipulate the earth. All that makes him different is that he can do this more adeptly and easily the more people surround him. Knox's power does ''not'' behave in the same way as Niki or Scott's. To use a computer analogy, for Samuel the process is the same (moving the earth), but the output is different (he can perform feats well beyond those of other Terrakinetics). Knox, on the other hand, has it the other way around- his process is entirely different to Niki's (in that he must suck in the fear, as indicated in his AT, and Niki doesn't need to do anything), but the output in both cases is the same (they gain larger-then-normal strength). Therefore, we are right to list Samuel with the other Terrakinetics, and wrong to list Knox with the rest of our strongmen (and women), because it's the mechanism of the actual power itself that determines what it is, not its effects. Does that make sense? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 06:58, 15 February 2010 (EST)

imported>EvilMaldini: /* Poll */

2010-02-14T22:08:03Z

Poll

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	# Split it. As we argued awhile ago, Niki and Knox plainly do not have the same power, for several reasons, not the least of which is that without fear being present, Knox has no power at all, whereas Niki/Jessica does not need any catalyst. --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 13:09, 2 February 2010 (EST)		# Split it. As we argued awhile ago, Niki and Knox plainly do not have the same power, for several reasons, not the least of which is that without fear being present, Knox has no power at all, whereas Niki/Jessica does not need any catalyst. --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 13:09, 2 February 2010 (EST)
	# Split the page. Think about it- Niki's power is passive, and is just active all the time, whereas Knox's is active and must be consciously activated. Are there any other cases in the world of Heroes where this is true and the powers are the same? Not that I know of. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 12:32, 5 February 2010 (EST)		# Split the page. Think about it- Niki's power is passive, and is just active all the time, whereas Knox's is active and must be consciously activated. Are there any other cases in the world of Heroes where this is true and the powers are the same? Not that I know of. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 12:32, 5 February 2010 (EST)
			#--[[User:EvilMaldini\|Evil Maldini]] 17:08, 14 February 2010 (EST)
	'''''Against the split'''''		'''''Against the split'''''
	#--[[User:Riddler\|Riddler]] 14:05, 23 January 2010 (EST) Only because the argument of "Enhanced" doesn't apply to our other enhanced abilities. See [[Enhanced (disambig)]]		#--[[User:Riddler\|Riddler]] 14:05, 23 January 2010 (EST) Only because the argument of "Enhanced" doesn't apply to our other enhanced abilities. See [[Enhanced (disambig)]]

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	******* Yup. Time consuming, but fun. :) --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 11:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)		******* Yup. Time consuming, but fun. :) --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 11:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	***On the subject of what constitutues a major difference...what about the fact that Knox's ability is active, while everyone else save possibly Micheal's is passive and there all the time? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:47, 12 February 2010 (EST)		***On the subject of what constitutues a major difference...what about the fact that Knox's ability is active, while everyone else save possibly Micheal's is passive and there all the time? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:47, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	****But we can't even argue that. The existence of fear is not something he turns on, it's just as passive as the rest of the ability.		****But we can't even argue that. The existence of fear is not something he turns on, it's just as passive as the rest of the ability.--[[User:Ricard Desi\|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi\|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi\|c]]) 19:48, 12 February, 2010 (EST)
	*****But Knox doesn't get stronger just when people are scared. He has to actually "draw in" the fear to boost his own strength, right? This is where all the hissing and so on comes from, and his AT states he has to actually take the fear and convert it into the strength. Therefore, it seems active to me. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)		*****But Knox doesn't get stronger just when people are scared. He has to actually "draw in" the fear to boost his own strength, right? This is where all the hissing and so on comes from, and his AT states he has to actually take the fear and convert it into the strength. Therefore, it seems active to me. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 18:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)

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	****It does seem that is ability is activated by something hence the glowing tattoos (and eyes?). So with that and what Sylar said, it's safe to say that Micheal has Enhanced strength. --[[User:OutbackZack\|OutbackZack]] 01:22, 12 February 2010 (EST)		****It does seem that is ability is activated by something hence the glowing tattoos (and eyes?). So with that and what Sylar said, it's safe to say that Micheal has Enhanced strength. --[[User:OutbackZack\|OutbackZack]] 01:22, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	***** Yep, that's correct. Forgot about that. You cool with that, Pieman? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 01:36, 12 February 2010 (EST)		***** Yep, that's correct. Forgot about that. You cool with that, Pieman? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 01:36, 12 February 2010 (EST)
			******Michael seemed to be able to use his ability even though Sylar wasn't scared of him. It would also seem weird that two level 5 escapees would have the exact same ability. Even though Sylar said he has enhanced strength, from what we saw it was still more close to super strength. But whatever, I dont care either way.--[[User:Piemanmoo\|Piemanmoo]] 00:29, 3 March 2010 (EST)
	* I was asked to give my thoughts on this, so I've read the prior discussion to see if anything had been added recently. The only thing I noticed was regarding "freezing", where Ryan explained a guideline that we need to follow what was given to us for the name of an ability. Then, the discussion was brought up again here, pointing out again the explicit mentioning of 'super strength' in the show. For me, I haven't seen anything new mentioned that would change my mind into thinking that there needed to be a split. Since the assignment tracker (AT) overrules the episode character statements in naming the ability, if we had a new AT for someone else with another form of enhanced strength, then I could see splitting off Niki's ability. If say, a certain lumberjack named Paul Bunyan were to make an appearance, and someone noted him as having an ability called 'oxen strength' (being as strong as an ox), then I think he would also appear on the enhanced strength page (unless the ability name showed up in an AT). The point being that the main result of the ability was the same (enhancement of strength), even though the means might be different, and those are the abilities that we can group together.--[[User:MiamiVolts\|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts\|talk]]) 04:34, 12 February 2010 (EST)		* I was asked to give my thoughts on this, so I've read the prior discussion to see if anything had been added recently. The only thing I noticed was regarding "freezing", where Ryan explained a guideline that we need to follow what was given to us for the name of an ability. Then, the discussion was brought up again here, pointing out again the explicit mentioning of 'super strength' in the show. For me, I haven't seen anything new mentioned that would change my mind into thinking that there needed to be a split. Since the assignment tracker (AT) overrules the episode character statements in naming the ability, if we had a new AT for someone else with another form of enhanced strength, then I could see splitting off Niki's ability. If say, a certain lumberjack named Paul Bunyan were to make an appearance, and someone noted him as having an ability called 'oxen strength' (being as strong as an ox), then I think he would also appear on the enhanced strength page (unless the ability name showed up in an AT). The point being that the main result of the ability was the same (enhancement of strength), even though the means might be different, and those are the abilities that we can group together.--[[User:MiamiVolts\|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts\|talk]]) 04:34, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	** I agree with MV. I just don't see enough difference in the (super/enhanced) strength abilities to merit a split. At one point, Matt and Maury's usages of Telepathy were very different, but we didnt split Telepathy because the fundamental ability wasn't 2 different abilities. "Exceptional" Strength is still '''one fundamental ability''', not two different abilities, even if it's adherents arrived with it from different triggers.(Hulk=Gamma Rays and Rage, Superman=Yellow Sun, Popeye=Spinach, Niki=Synthetic untriggered, Knox=fear triggered). <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer\|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer\|talk]]) 02/12/2010 08:53 (EST)</small>		** I agree with MV. I just don't see enough difference in the (super/enhanced) strength abilities to merit a split. At one point, Matt and Maury's usages of Telepathy were very different, but we didnt split Telepathy because the fundamental ability wasn't 2 different abilities. "Exceptional" Strength is still '''one fundamental ability''', not two different abilities, even if it's adherents arrived with it from different triggers.(Hulk=Gamma Rays and Rage, Superman=Yellow Sun, Popeye=Spinach, Niki=Synthetic untriggered, Knox=fear triggered). <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer\|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer\|talk]]) 02/12/2010 08:53 (EST)</small>

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	*That actually does make a lot of sense, hadn't thought of it that way. --[[User:Ricard Desi\|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi\|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi\|c]]) 10:13, 12 February 2010 (EST)		*That actually does make a lot of sense, hadn't thought of it that way. --[[User:Ricard Desi\|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi\|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi\|c]]) 10:13, 12 February 2010 (EST)
	** Though I do see your point, I think it's a bit different from Knox, since we know Samuel retains a minimal amount of power when alone, but there is no indication Knox has ''any'' ability when not in the presence of fear. And Knox's power isn't called 'strength...' some adjective is necessary. Also, tricky ground (pun intended) there, though. (('''This next part can be mostly ignored, as it is all completely hypothetical and does not need to be addressed...I just like seeing myself type sometimes''' ;))...It seems to imply that if we get another character that can manipulate the earth without the amplifying effect, we group them, and just say 'Samuel could do more because of the amplification part of his manifestation of the ability.' We'd also have to group characters that have more specific earth manipulation skills (eg - ability to cause earthquakes, but nothing else) there as well. The main problem would come, however, if we got an AT for someone else called 'seismic disruption' or something like that. Since we are effectively ignoring aspects of Samuel's ability in the name (meaning it is implied with plain old terrakinesis), we can assume they are byproducts and we'd have to change the page name if we got a better source (which isn't hard to do considering we don't have a canon one to begin with). --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 12:02, 12 February 2010 (EST)		** Though I do see your point, I think it's a bit different from Knox, since we know Samuel retains a minimal amount of power when alone, but there is no indication Knox has ''any'' ability when not in the presence of fear. And Knox's power isn't called 'strength...' some adjective is necessary. Also, tricky ground (pun intended) there, though. (('''This next part can be mostly ignored, as it is all completely hypothetical and does not need to be addressed...I just like seeing myself type sometimes''' ;))...It seems to imply that if we get another character that can manipulate the earth without the amplifying effect, we group them, and just say 'Samuel could do more because of the amplification part of his manifestation of the ability.' We'd also have to group characters that have more specific earth manipulation skills (eg - ability to cause earthquakes, but nothing else) there as well. The main problem would come, however, if we got an AT for someone else called 'seismic disruption' or something like that. Since we are effectively ignoring aspects of Samuel's ability in the name (meaning it is implied with plain old terrakinesis), we can assume they are byproducts and we'd have to change the page name if we got a better source (which isn't hard to do considering we don't have a canon one to begin with). --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 12:02, 12 February 2010 (EST)
			***I'm not sure the Samuel/Knox analogy is an accurate one. Samuel's power behaves in exactly the same way as all other Terrakinetics- he can manipulate the earth. All that makes him different is that he can do this more adeptly and easily the more people surround him. Knox's power does ''not'' behave in the same way as Niki or Scott's. To use a computer analogy, for Samuel the process is the same (moving the earth), but the output is different (he can perform feats well beyond those of other Terrakinetics). Knox, on the other hand, has it the other way around- his process is entirely different to Niki's (in that he must suck in the fear, as indicated in his AT, and Niki doesn't need to do anything), but the output in both cases is the same (they gain larger-then-normal strength). Therefore, we are right to list Samuel with the other Terrakinetics, and wrong to list Knox with the rest of our strongmen (and women), because it's the mechanism of the actual power itself that determines what it is, not its effects. Does that make sense? [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 06:58, 15 February 2010 (EST)

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	# Split it. As we argued awhile ago, Niki and Knox plainly do not have the same power, for several reasons, not the least of which is that without fear being present, Knox has no power at all, whereas Niki/Jessica does not need any catalyst. --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 13:09, 2 February 2010 (EST)		# Split it. As we argued awhile ago, Niki and Knox plainly do not have the same power, for several reasons, not the least of which is that without fear being present, Knox has no power at all, whereas Niki/Jessica does not need any catalyst. --[[User:Stevehim\|Stevehim]] 13:09, 2 February 2010 (EST)
	# Split the page. Think about it- Niki's power is passive, and is just active all the time, whereas Knox's is active and must be consciously activated. Are there any other cases in the world of Heroes where this is true and the powers are the same? Not that I know of. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 12:32, 5 February 2010 (EST)		# Split the page. Think about it- Niki's power is passive, and is just active all the time, whereas Knox's is active and must be consciously activated. Are there any other cases in the world of Heroes where this is true and the powers are the same? Not that I know of. [[User:Swmystery\|Swm]] 12:32, 5 February 2010 (EST)
			#--[[User:EvilMaldini\|Evil Maldini]] 17:08, 14 February 2010 (EST)
	'''''Against the split'''''		'''''Against the split'''''
	#--[[User:Riddler\|Riddler]] 14:05, 23 January 2010 (EST) Only because the argument of "Enhanced" doesn't apply to our other enhanced abilities. See [[Enhanced (disambig)]]		#--[[User:Riddler\|Riddler]] 14:05, 23 January 2010 (EST) Only because the argument of "Enhanced" doesn't apply to our other enhanced abilities. See [[Enhanced (disambig)]]