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Talk:Electromagnetism: Difference between revisions
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imported>Ryangibsonstewart redirect -- this page is already archived at Talk:Electromagnetism/Archive 3 |
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#redirect [[Talk:Electric manipulation]] |
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{| border="2" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="4" class="wikitable" |
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! Archives |
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! Archived Topics |
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| align=center | [[Talk:Electromagnetism/Archive 1|Nov/Dec 2006]] || <small>{{ArchiveLinks|Talk:Electromagnetism/Archive 1}}</small> |
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| align=center | [[Talk:Electromagnetism/Archive 2|Jan/Nov 2007]] || <small>{{ArchiveLinks|Talk:Electromagnetism/Archive 2}}</small> |
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{{tocright}}{{power names|5}} |
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<br><br> |
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== Electric propulsion == |
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* Electromagnetism is not the only type of [[wikipedia:electric propulsion|electric propulsion]]. I see no reason not to merge this back with [[lightning]]. -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 13:54, 29 November 2007 (EST) |
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** Wikipedia lists the others as a) electrostatic, b) electrothermal and c) vacuum arc thrusters... a) electrostatic force is the force between subatomic particles... The Agent isn't microscopic, he's not using a stream of particles to levitate, and he's not [[Wikipedia:Electrostatic levitation|charging the ground]]; b) electrothermal is described as using electromagnetic fields to heat a plasma to heat yet another propellant... no plasma or other propellant on the Agent, and this method still uses electromagnetism indirectly' c) vacuum arc thrusters require a vacuum... and the Agent is not in outer space. Electromagnetism is the only rl force known to cause said levitation. Think [[Wikipedia:Maglev train|MagLev train]]s.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 15:09, 29 November 2007 (EST) |
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*** MagLev's use two objects with the same magnetic charge (the track and the train), electricity works the same. Opposites attract and likes repel. Electric repulsion can and does happen as can be seen with some affects of a [[Wikipedia:Van de Graaff generator|Van de Graaff generator]], or even by rubbing two balloons in your hair and holding them near each other. The Agent doesn't have to charge the ground, just have the same charge, and how do you know he isn't charging the ground? Electric levitation is just as possible as magnetic levitation, it is just unstable and more dangerous. And it is called [[lightning]] in the graphic novel. -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 04:31, 5 December 2007 (EST) |
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**** Van de Graff generators and rubbing two balloons together are good examples of static repulsion. With a Van de Graaff generator, if you hold your hand on the metal conductor of the generator, your hair rises and you are okay; but if you remove your hand just a bit, you get shocked as the electric particles must then connect to you through the air (don't try this at home kids, it's not fun). Thus, if it is static repulsion the lightning should be flowing from his hands to the ground at all times to keep him in the air and it isn't. Also, if his power was somehow magically charging the ground, that would quickly be felt by those on the ground. And again, as you mentioned, static repulsion is an unstable form of repulsion, not very suitable for levitating in the air as the Agent clearly was. Future Peter calls his own ability "lightning" in the GN, and I agree ''Future Peter's ability'' should be named thus. But since Peter didn't levitate like the Agent, the Agent's power must be assumed a different ability.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 08:00, 5 December 2007 (EST) |
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***** The arcs would happen when there are parts of the objects that have opposite charges, it would happen frequently but not necessarily constantly. It would be easier to use electric levitation then to levitate in the earth's magnetic field, as earth's magnetic field is too weak locally to even levitate a very powerful magnet, in order for it to work the object would have to have a very large magnetic field. The insatiability would mean he would have to be constantly adjusting the field, not that it wouldn't work. It is actually easier to explain the Agent's levitation by electricity, then it is to explain [[Elle]]'s "sharp shooting", witch would require the two objects to be the strongest oppositely charged objects in the area, with nothing between them to interfere or conduct. Ted could produce an EM pulse, Peter hasn't, it doesn't mean they are different powers. -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 12:16, 5 December 2007 (EST) |
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*****# It would be constantly cause if the Agent was charging a portion of the ground and himself to match it as you suggest, then the uncharged ground closest to him would create an arc, not necessarily only towards him but potentially also towards the sky. There's also the problem of a charge affecting the others on the ground, which isn't a problem for magnetism. The earth is already one large magnet, so theoretically the Agent just has to have a strong enough magnetic field around himself to levitate. There is some cool info. about diamagnetism research performed at a [http://www.hfml.ru.nl/froglev.html Netherlands university], that shows how they made frogs levitate.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2007 (EST) |
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*****# With Ted, we saw him use radioactivity first. If Ted's first action with his ability was the EM pulse, we might have thought the radioactivity was a bonus effect and not the main power. With the Agent, we don't have the advantage to know which came first (the levitation or the lightning bolts), so we need to assume they came at the same time.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2007 (EST) |
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*****# And as for Elle's ability, this is fiction, so you have to suspend a certain amount of disbelief. My thought is that Elle charges herself and her target to opposite polarity in order to generate the lightning.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2007 (EST) |
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******# After more research it appears I was wrong, arcs would not be frequent or constant, with a properly managed field over a wide enough area, they would not happen unless something interfered. Yes it would affect others on the ground, which for the most part would be minor, but if they got in the way they would get struck. Magnetism could work but it would not just have to be strong enough, but large enough to displace the energy equivalent of the geomagnetic field needed to overcome gravity, see [http://www.spacemagnetics.com/home/aerospace/faq_aerospace.html here]. |
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******# The Agent demonstrated the ability to manipulate electricity and [[Peter]] called it [[Lightning]]. The Agent did not demonstrate any other magnetic properties, it is speculation to say his ability had anything to do with magnetism. |
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******# I think that is the way [[Elle]]'s ability works, which I also think is the same way the Agent's ability works. It is fiction, I do have to suspend disbelief, which means they could say it was magnetism, forcefields, etc., they said [[Lightning]]. I just wish they did somethings with Elle a little more realistic, it wouldn't be to hard. |
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****** Now I want to do some experimenting, but the ground may be too wet with snow and water to be safe. -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 17:03, 10 December 2007 (EST) |
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******* 2. Peter produced an ability from his hands that shot out electricity, but he didn't levitate. Thus, he didn't replicate the Agent's ability and henceforth didn't name it. It is speculation to claim that the lightning he described could not have come from one of the other escaped prisoners. As further proof, in ''[[Powerless]]'', Peter was able to send thoughts back to Matt, so it appears Peter should absorb whatever level of experience of power is present in the person he absorbs it from. Thus, if Peter was to meet Maury, he should be able to replicate his visual (more advanced) telepathy.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 17:33, 10 December 2007 (EST) |
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******** Peter didn't send his thoughts to Matt, that was just him talking to Matt in his head, the same way that Noah did to Matt when they were breaking out of the company's prison. --[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 22:15, 25 December 2007 (EST) |
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********* How do we know this for sure? We don't. It could be either. It's actually more reasonable to say that Peter projected his thoughts. Matt projects thoughts, then Peter copies him. --{{User:Ice Vision/sig}} 22:19, 25 December 2007 (EST) |
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********* But from what we know Peter has only ever read thoughts, not sent them. Since we can't prove if he sent his thoughts to Matt or not, we'll have to assume that the sound what just Matt hearing them, not peter sending them out.--[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 14:59, 26 December 2007 (EST) |
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********** Yeah, but Peter mimicked telepathy. He has that power. This means that he can do whatever Matt can do, which includes projecting thoughts into others' minds. We can't prove either, but since it's consistent to say that they projected thoughts into each other, it's the most probable scenario. Is it irrational to say that Peter unlocked a new aspect of telepathy after Matt tries to uses that same aspect against him? --[[User:Ice Vision|<span style="font-family: tahoma; font-size: 10pt; color:darkgreen">Ice Vision</span>]] [[User talk:Ice Vision|<span style="font-family: comic sans ms; font-size: 8pt; font-weight: bold; color: blue">(talk)</span>]] 15:13, 26 December 2007 (EST) |
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********Even if it is probable, it's still just speculation. --[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 15:19, 26 December 2007 (EST) |
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*********True, just like your statement. --[[User:Ice Vision|<span style="font-family: tahoma; font-size: 10pt; color:darkgreen">Ice Vision</span>]] [[User talk:Ice Vision|<span style="font-family: comic sans ms; font-size: 8pt; font-weight: bold; color: blue">(talk)</span>]] 15:25, 26 December 2007 (EST) |
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== Lightning? == |
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* I might be wrong but doesn't Peter call this ability Lightning in the graphic novel? I know that there has been a discussion about Lightning earlier on but no one seem to do anything with that discussion, why was electromagnetism chosen? --<span style="font-size: 8pt; font-weight:bold;"> [[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] ( [[User:Futurepeter|U]] - [[User_talk:Futurepeter|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Futurepeter|C]] ) 07:08, 25 October 2008 (EDT)</span> |
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** Read [[Talk:Electromagnetism/Archive_2#.2Acough.2A.2C_.2Acough.2A|this archive topic]], which addresses exactly that. If you still have questions, I'll restate the reasons.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 12:07, 25 October 2008 (EDT) |
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*** So, the levitational aspect of this ability caused it to name it "Electromagnetism" if i understand correctly. Thanx! --<span style="font-size: 8pt; font-weight:bold;"> [[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] ( [[User:Futurepeter|U]] - [[User_talk:Futurepeter|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Futurepeter|C]] ) 08:51, 26 October 2008 (EDT)</span> |
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**** To bring attention to this topic again, I have to point out that we're relying heavily on what people say in some places and not so much in others. For Lightning, we have arguments against renaming it because Peter described it as Lightning. Here, we're going with a descriptive even though Peter explicitly called it Lightning. We're contradicting ourselves and discombobulating (wow, it wasn't underlined in red, that's a real word!) the naming conventions and our standards. For the arguments here that state it should be listed differently with a descriptive name because it has levitation, may I direct you to [[Enhanced strength]] and [[Accelerated probability]]. The former has a variation that requires fear. The latter has a variation that produces "Lighting". This variant of Lightning involves Levitation. We've lost consistency somewhere. Can anybody find it?--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 01:04, 6 December 2008 (EST) |
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***** The difference is this ability has something extra that is produced. When this ability was named, the paradigm we were working in was that every character only has one single ability and that byproducts were not possible. Now that paradigm is forever shattered due to Brendan Lewis's and Edward's abilities having other abilities as byproducts. So it might be appropriate to rename this lightning and add levitation as a byproduct, and I'm not opposed to compromise and allow this rename/split if we can keep lightning as being Edward's ability too. What do you guys think? Sound like a good plan?--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 01:18, 6 December 2008 (EST) |
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****** That sounds good. But I'm not liking these "By products" to be totally honest, though that's probably a discussion for another page. ...But what page?--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 01:23, 6 December 2008 (EST) |
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******* How about {{nowantedlink|Talk:Byproducts of abilities}}?--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 01:26, 6 December 2008 (EST) |
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Latest revision as of 02:34, 18 December 2008
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