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==Really Needed? Really?==
== Decision ==
This is about, the image of Tracy turning from water into herself. I don't think this should be in the article since it doesn't really have anything to do with freezing.--[[User:Scorvi12|Scorvi12]] 03:39, 30 April 2009 (EDT)
Don't you think it's about time to decide if what we're going to do? Season 4 had ended and season 5 was still hanging. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 01:45, 12 February 2010 (EST)
*It's pretty obvious that the woman in An Invisible Thread was Tracy, and her ability is freezing. So until her ability is changed, this is where the example belongs.--[[User:Laudo|Laudo]] 20:20, 30 April 2009 (EDT)
*Read RGS's post above.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 01:46, 12 February 2010 (EST)
**But it was still nominated for a split --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 02:26, 12 February 2010 (EST)
*** There's no consensus for a split. We were explicitly given a name for Tracy's ability. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 03:08, 12 February 2010 (EST)
*** Also, keep in mind that not every page nominated for a name change or split will get one.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:27, 12 February 2010 (EST)


==THE Discussion.  Ability Development, or New Power?==
== Phrasing ==
Lets get this over with.  Personally I think what makes the most logical sense is that Tracy's ability has always been what we are seeeing, some sort of water control. Making it a seperate ability from freezing and water mimicry altogether. We know from other character like [[Ted]], [[Matt Parkman, Jr.]], [[Peter]], and others that abilities are affected by the mindset and emotions of the user. So Tracy was simply unable to access the other aspects of her ability (rather than these being new aspects) when she was a "colder" person.  Micah comes, inspires her, she "warms" up to him, and now she can use this part of her power (which will likely lead to her being able to control and become steam as well). Some of you might not like it, but this is how abilities have been written since the beginning.  They have always been emotion and personality based.  I vote we create a new article for this ability.  It seems only hurtful to leave the topic undiscussed IN the articles for the most part, as this is more likely to be an answer someone is seeking since it was one of the cliffhangers from the finale. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 13:01, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
I've noticed that on several pages that mention a situation with this power, the phrased "turns into ice" or "became ice" or some variation of that is used. Turns into ice implies that Tracy is causing organic matter to become water with her ability, which I don't recall being mentioned. Is there any sort of evidence to back this word usage up?--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 15:58, 5 March 2010 (EST)
*I agree, I think Tracy's ability has always been something other than that, but she could only access the freezing part of it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:47, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
*Yeah, when she froze others, we saw their blood when they shattered. When ''she'' shattered, it was pure ice. So, my thinking is that she activated the water mimicry aspect as she was freezing, turning her to pure ice. Or are you talking about the other people and objects? In that case, I wouldn't use turns to ice, I think we'd be better saying freezes. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 17:34, 5 March 2010 (EST)
**I was refering to the other people and objects. Under the examples section it says that Tracy turns Claire to ice, and in Tracy's victims it says that she turned of the Building 26 fellows into ice. I didn't change it because I wasn't sure whether she was turning them to ice or not. But you're agreeing that she doesn't?--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 17:45, 5 March 2010 (EST)
**I just found one quote in particular "Tracy converts Wade Winslow's entire body into ice, killing him". Saying someone turned into ice could simply be an odd way of phrasing something, but saying an entire body was converted to ice leaves no room for interpretation.--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 17:47, 5 March 2010 (EST)
***Yes, the fact Nathan talks about that man's blood still being warm on the wall (though I would argue it was cold) means that guy wasn't ice, and when Claire's foot came off, it didn't melt, it just defrosted. About Wade Winslow, I think that should be frozen as well. We have no evidence that he was completely ice. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 17:49, 5 March 2010 (EST)


==An Invisible Thread==
== Files of Primatech, Part 4 ==
So over at [[Talk:Tracy Strauss]], the consensus has been reached that the woman in the finale was Tracy. So, until her ability is changed (if it ever is), can't we mention in her section that she can turn into water now? We have an image of it in the examples, so why not mention it? IT was the 'big' cliffhanger of the season, so no doubt people will want answers, and the may come here to get them. --[[User:Laudo|Laudo]] 12:28, 6 May 2009 (EDT)


== Water mimicry ==
They used to the term "abilities" to describe Mindy's power. I foresee a possible backlash, but doesn't this set a precedent to use the "water and ice manipulation" abilities to name Tracy's power? [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:25, 29 March 2010 (EDT)
It's not the same ability as freezing. The last image with Tracy's splashy return should not be there. -- [[User:Altes|Altes]] 13:21, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
* No. They use the term "abilities" in all of Primatech's personnel files. See [[Primatech's files#Personnel Files]]. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:37, 29 March 2010 (EDT)
*See above. Tracy's ability is listed as Freezing for now, and this was an example of whatever her ability is. So until her listing is changed, the image should stay, in my opinion. --[[User:Laudo|Laudo]] 17:03, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
** We are not even sure it's Tracy. I know, I know, we have discussed it before, but... -- [[User:Altes|Altes]] 11:34, 7 May 2009 (EDT)
*** Every page with talk relevant to the discussions has at least one post with a confirmation that it is Tracy. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:03, 7 May 2009 (EDT)
****Its an odd ability, they appear to be based on emotional status or mental status at points. Tracy was an Ice Queen and only knew how to be cold, but when Mica talked to her she realized that she did not have to be such a person. In that way she found a new way to use her ability. Water mimicry? probably not the best name, it is temperature based but with turning into a liquid it could be seen as changing of states. The human body is naturally solid but it is made up mainly of water. Using her ability she is able to turn her entire body into water as well as into Ice. Maybe we will see her turn into a gas at one point but so far she has moved from solid to liquid. Might be matter manipulation. If it had something to do with temperature I would think she could have broken out of the heat prison due to her sweating. --[[User:DontEatRawHagis|DontEatRawHagis]] 00:28, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
*****Matter manipulation is definitely out of the table, it would mean she can manipulate everything there is, everything that is matter. Her ability is clearly restricted to water, even if in its three states. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:13, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
 
****Just looked at the wikipedia pages for freezing and melting they can be called Crystallization and an increase in Molecular Vibrations respectively. She has the power to cause Crystallization in both herself and others(ie freezing) but seems now only to cause an increase in Molecular Vibrations in herself, sort of how Alex Mac in that Nickelodeon show could turn into a puddle. MAybe these will help discern a new name for her ability. --[[User:DontEatRawHagis|DontEatRawHagis]] 13:05, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
 
== I miss the old good Sylar ==
He was so good and badass with freezing... -- [[User:Altes|Altes]] 06:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
*That he was...Season 1 Sylar was pretty much the most badass villain on television. I think it was because he was surrounded in a lot of mystery. Now that they've delved into his life, he's become common and to well known. I think they should have killed him off in the first season. It would have saved him from "jumping the shark". -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 20:32, 10 July 2009 (EDT)
** Well, maybe they should have not. Sylar's return was brilliant. It was Volume Three that ruined everything, but now... Can't wait for Volume Five, huh? -- [[User:Altes|Altes]] 02:09, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
***I agree with you Altes, V3 Sylar wasn't the greatest, but V5 should be pretty cool.--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 02:16, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
*** :) -- [[User:Altes|Altes]] 09:59, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
****V2 Sylar was pretty good as well. The whole not having powers thing was pretty cool too. Maybe they should have had him return in the end of V2, but just made him dissipear again, becoming a guest star again. I think it would have made his character mysterious again. V3 Sylar was just too wimpy. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 09:12, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
***** Having an invincible villain is cool, but it should not last for too long. Arthur was killed off. Samson, I believe, used to be very powerful. Linda Tavara was killed. But Sylar lives no matter what. But, like I said, can't wait until Volume 5, I'm glad they've made something unusual. -- [[User:Altes|Altes]] 09:59, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
******They should have given him a power that dealt with force fields or something like that and not RCR. Sylar was cooler when he wasn't invincible as he actually thought about his plans, instead of just charging in. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 14:01, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
******* I agree.  I hate how Sylar keeps looking for redemtion. Here is the new line;  Sylar, Claire, and Gretchen= good guys.  Peter, Emma, Matt, Hiro, Edgar= good guys that get bullied around to the point of being bad guys. Samuel= bad guy, with his block headed Eli friends and all. HRG is questionable, like always.  It's a shame.  Sylar made such a good bad guy, he was sick and twisted and even a bit mad. Samuel is way to level headed to be bad as$.  But you are right, Sylar and Peter were way to powerful (and they went kill-joy on Peter's power), and the only ones that he realy uses are Telekinesis and Regenarating.  There needs to be some cool twist to his power, like to keep all his abilities he has to kill someone once a week, or something like that.--[[User:Dance4thedead|Dance4thedead]] 14:11, 6 February 2010 (EST)
*Samuel is FAR from level-headed. He sank a town because his girlfriend didn't want to live with him, destroyed his birth home because someone was rude to him, wrecked a police station because they killed someone he didn't even know, and plans to murder thousands of people so he and his kind can be respected and feared. I'd say Sylar's far more mentally stable then he is, and that's including the psychopathy and hunger. [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 15:05, 6 February 2010 (EST)
 
== this will be good against transportation and space-time manipulation ==
 
Freezing could be the only way of killing somebody with transportation and space time manipulation but only if the person has not had time to respond. 50000JH
:If the person has no time to respond, a bullet can do the job too. [[User:Mateussf|Mateussf]] 13:27, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
:: Or [[:Image:Powers_dl_lindermans_head.jpg|phasing]], if you can sneak up to the person. {{User:Altes/Signature}}
::: Well doesn't that apply to anything? If you've got the element of surprise, you don't even need a power to kill an evolved human! I don't think Hiro would respond well to a knife in the back. With Rapid Cell Regeneration and Impenetrable Skin being exceptions, of course :P--[[User:Kooliki|Kooliki]] 22:04, 3 October 2009 (EDT)
In the sense of abilities. {{user:50000JH/signature}}
 
== Tracy issue ==
Okay. The reason for my thinking is that Tracy is no longer limited to just freezing things, she can now transform her entire body into water and project water (Similar to Water Mimicry). I would suggest '''Hydrokinesis''' because by definition, it is the control over water (including temperature). The only reason I think Tracy should be classified as having a different power is because no other character has displayed the same aspects of her ability. The other characters with the ability '''Freezing''' have only demonstrated the ability to lower the temperature of selected targets. Tracy, on the other hand, can mimic, control, and freeze water. Proposition for a name change/merge/creation of a new ability should wait until season 4 starts, but I'm just throwing this out there now. Comments?--[[User:Bender|Bender]] 21:08, 15 September 2009 (EDT)
* Tracy can also freeze objects that contain no water, so I'd rather say she has two different powers - freezing and water mimicry. {{User:Altes/Signature}}
** Just a theory, but maybe she makes some water infiltrate the object before freezing it. [[User:Mateussf|Mateussf]] 16:08, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
*** No need for such a giant title, I've shrinked it. Now for the subject, I do agree that Tracy's ability no longer fits freezing as it is, but seeing that no other water mimics (Elisa, Essex, liquid man) showed cold and ice related abilities, I don't think Tracy should be moved over to water mimicry. That still leaves the issue of what to call her ability, so far she's shown water mimicry effects and freezing effects, accounting for control over water and temperature (since she has frozen things without water). I fear we may end up with "Tracy's ability". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:42, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
****Whats bad about Hydrokinesis?--{{User:Danko/Signature}} 16:45, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
*****Yeah, Hydrokinesis sounds good.{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 16:46, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
******It doesn't cover the freezing part of her ability, not entirely. She has frozen things that had no water in it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:18, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
*******Such as...(flowers and people contain water)--{{User:Danko/Signature}} 17:23, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
********IE is right.  She did freeze the tag on her stolen clothes in Cold Snap.  I guess Hydrokinesis isn't the best name for it.{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 17:28, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
*********A shame I like it--{{User:Danko/Signature}} 17:35, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
**********She also froze her telephone when she panicked over killing the reporter, when she was trying to turn herself in. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:19, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
***********Let's not forget that there is water in the very air we breathe so, there is water (however little there may be) on all the objects that have been frozen by Tracy, so Hydrokinesis is not a totally invalid name to call the ability she possesses. However, I would also propose Hydro-cryokinesis to deal with the "freezing" aspect of her ability if you think that the small amount of water idea is too far fetched. --[[User:Bender|Bender]] 21:58, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
* Regarding a name change: we were given a name for Tracy's ability in a canon source. We can redefine the limits of her ability and tell how it's evolved, but I really don't think we should change the name of it until we have some confirmation that that the power is actually a different or new power. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 22:19, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
** The best way to exaplain it is that her ability has never been freezing, though it looked a lot like it due to [[ability homology]]. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 11:50, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
*** Or maybe we should leave it as freezing after all. [[Edward]] can also produce electrical arcs with [[Accelerated probability|his ability]], although it seems to have no connection with seeing the variables of situations and moving oneself to the selected outcome. {{User:Altes/Signature}}
**** Actually, there is. By moving himself to the location so fast, he could pick up a lot of stactic electricity through friction, normally that would do anything (otherwise Daphne could also zap people), but since his ability involves probability, he can use probability to make the unlikely likely and so on. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 12:13, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
*** Explaining the phenomenon with the idea that Tracy never had the ability of freezing at all is not a good idea at all. Her power has been confirmed to be freezing numerous times. She definitely froze things. Her power is now evolving. She does not have a new power, just a power that has new limits and capabilities. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 17:14, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
**** Thing is, becoming water makes no sense in an ability named freezing. It's related to it, but it doesn't go with the name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:39, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::*'''''Water manipulation''''' or '''''H2O manipulation''''' (so noob-like) would fit if her ability really is evolving from '''Solid'''(''Freezing'') -> '''Liquid''' (''Water'') -> Then definitely the end will be '''Gas'''.
 
::::::Reply to Danko: "''Such as...(flowers and people contain water)''."
:::::::*When Tracy tried to drown Noah inside a car. She manage to seal the car by freezing the holes with ice. (By "''holes''", I mean anything that would cause the water to come out) --{{User:NiveKJ13/sig1}} 16:33, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:*I think Tracy should be removed from this page and given her own ability page. Clearly she can do more than freze things.  Like IE said, this seems like a case of Ability Homology.  Her power seemed like freezing, but was actually that and more. Unless we completely rename this page and note the fact that James Walker and Sylar never advanced their abilities as far as Tracy... --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 01:30, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
::* Tracy has been confirmed to have an ability called "freezing". We shouldn't be determining whether or not she has the same ability as others, but what the limits of the ability are. Similarly, we wouldn't remove [[Arthur]] from the page about [[telepathy]] simply because he hasn't cast an illusion, or [[Maury]] from the page because he hasn't painted the future. Abilities develop for some characters, but the name of the ability doesn't change. That doesn't mean we should remove the character from the page, either--it means we update the limits of the ability. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 02:59, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:::* Well then, the limits need to be updated, if we're leaving them all on the same page. I would do it, but I don't really know how to write it... --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 11:59, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
::::*I appreciate the fact that we follow Canon sources to name abilities, however, leaving it as simply Freezing defies Canon sources when you think about it. Yes, Canon-ly, we have a source which states her power is "Freezing" but surely the episodes which have displayed that her ability is more than simply Freezing are also Canon sources? Canon sources are listed as simply 'episodes'- well episodes have shown she can do more than Freeze so...--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 15:46, 25 December 2009 (EST)
:*I always assumed that Tracy can controll water - and freezing water IS controlling water. So in season 3 she simply didn't have access to her full potential --[[User:Sebi|Sebi]] 12:05, 9 January 2010 (EST)
I like the H2O manipulation: water is normally the liquid name and ice the solid name so H20 manipulation. User50000JH 15:57, 16 January 2010 (EST)
 
==Prodigals, part 1==
The graphic novel clearly states she has water and ice manipulation abilities, can we now change the name to cold water and ice manipulation. [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 07:28, 17 November 2009 (EST)
*The graphic novel doesn't state that, but the intro page does. The intro page is not written by any of the writers or graphic novel crew, so it isn't a canon source. --[[User:Radicell|Radicell]] 07:31, 17 November 2009 (EST)
**It is a more accurate name for her ability than the one we currently have though. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 12:54, 17 November 2009 (EST)
***I agree, I think Tracy's power should be '''Water and ice manipulation'''. It does indeed describe her power in more detail than '''Freezing''' does. I know many people aren't fans of splitting pages, but I've been thinking her power should be categorized as something other than '''Freezing''' since we learned she could manipulate and mimic water as well. --[[User:Bender|Bender]] 17:47, 17 November 2009 (EST)
****water and ice manipulation sounds the most accurate. It describes her ability best. [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 18:55, 17 November 2009 (EST)
***** I'm very torn because I really like the name "water and ice manipulation". However, I also believe that we should stick to canon (and near-canon) sources. The introduction to a graphic novel is not such a source. Nathan's files, as seen in ''[[Dual]]'', are a canon source. Begrudgingly, I think we should keep "freezing" until we receive a canon or near-canon source that renames the ability. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 22:57, 17 November 2009 (EST)
This has been discussed [[Talk:Healing touch|elsewhere]], but it deffinately applies here: [[Help:Naming conventions#Guidelines for names derived from Heroes sources|This section]] states:
*''When a possible name for an ability appears in a canon, near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications''
*''As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability.''
 
'''Freezing''' is only an aspect of her ability and does not fully describe what she can do. Therefore Freezing is not and accurate name for her ability. It describes James Walker's ability fully, but Tracy needs to be split from this page and given a new ability page (saying that [[James Walker]] was/would be able to mimic and control water is as speculative as saying that [[Rachel Mills]] will learn to control time as well). This page does not need a name change, but Tracy needs to have a new ability page called '''Water and ice manipulation'''. --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 00:49, 18 November 2009 (EST)
 
I think Skullman has a point, because the Company named Jeremy's ability before he discovered he could drain life - therefore, his power is more than just a "healing touch". Tracy's ability was named before she was shattered by Danko, so her ability is more than freezing, too. But still, I'm opposed against renaming any of these abilities, because there are other examples when a name doesn't properly describe an ability - gravitation manipulation, electric manipulation etc. These names are too wide, and the possessors of these abilities displayed very few effects. And it's okay... Dura canon, sed canon. Let it be. {{User:Altes/Signature}}
* I wanna draw some attention to how the intro page worded it.  "''Finally finding acceptance and freedom with her water and ice manipulation '''abilities'''.''" Abilities. With an S. I think we can keep Freezing and add a Water manipulation page, and accept that she has two separate (though connected) abilities. This extra page would also include [[Donald Essex]] since he can do more than just mimic water properties.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 01:37, 18 November 2009 (EST)
** I believe there were other examples like "telepathic abilities" or "healing abilities", I should look for them {{User:Altes/Signature}}
*It should also be noted that an intro has been used to name an ability. [[Talk:Bone_spike_protrusion]]. I don't see why it wouldn't apply here.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 05:57, 18 November 2009 (EST)
**The difference is that with the spikes, the GN source was a higher level than the previous name ("spike protrusion", which was a descriptive name). However, here we already have a level-1 name ("freezing"), which cannot change unless another level-1 name shows up. --[[User:Radicell|Radicell]] 06:02, 18 November 2009 (EST)
***But the level 1 name is outdated. It can only apply to her ability up until that point. Afterwards her ability has drastically change and a new description has been released. Even if it is a level 2 source. We need to not only factor in the level of the sources, but the time of reference as well.This isn't the first time we went from a level 1 to a level 2 [[Talk:Electric_manipulation]] --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 06:05, 18 November 2009 (EST)
****I'm all for  "Water and Ice manipulation", Freezing on Nathan's files was correct ''at that time'', but has since been outdated with the development of the ability. And if someone doesn't know exactly what an ability is, their say shouldn't count as cannon. Take Edgar for example, he calls Peter an empath, meaning he has empathic mimicry, although we all know that he has ability replication. He got it wrong. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 15:05, 18 November 2009 (EST)
***** I want to repeat that I believe we can create a page for '''Water manipulation''' and keep Freezing as it is, include [[Donald Essex]] on the Water manipulation page, and accept that Tracy has two connected abilities and put her on both pages.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 18:10, 18 November 2009 (EST)
******I would be all for it too. Anything to make it clear that "freezing" isn't her only ability. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 18:18, 18 November 2009 (EST)
*******I don't go with that, it would be the same as saying she has two abilities. No one has more than one natural ability. What she does have is an ability with multiple effects. Matt has [[telepathy]], yet he can [[Persuasion|make others do as he wishes]], make [[Mental manipulation|people forget stuff]], make people [[Illusion|see stuff is not there]], make people [[Nerve manipulation|don't see stuff it is there]], [[Precognition|see the future]]... It's the same with Tracy, though the link with between the different effects of her ability aren't as clear. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:27, 18 November 2009 (EST)
*******I would be in favour of this change, simply because it's a more accurate name for her ability then the current one. The fact the older name is used in an episode shouldn't really matter if that name is clearly unsuited for the purpose, as it seems to be here. For example, let's say Danko has the ability of Pyrokinesis, which has been clearly demonstrated. An episode names it as being Freezing, while it's called Pyrokinesis in a GN. Should we follow the pyramid and use what would clearly be a very wrong name, just because it's been in an episode? Clearly not. Why, then, would we do it here? The difference in names is less extreme, but ultimately it's a case of the same thing- less canonical but more accurate (Water/Ice Manipulation), vs more canonical and less accurate (Freezing). Radicell and Ryan's stance seems to lead to the latter, but since the ultimate goal of these articles seems to be to be as accurate as possible, I suggest we opt for the former. Not least because the point about Nathan's files, and the Company's AT for Jeremy being true ''at that time'' has merit. They were correct at the time because, as far as the authors knew, that was all they could do. Since they've since been proven wrong in that belief, at least in Tracy's case, the names we use shouldn't cling to them. That's my opinion, anyway. [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 18:19, 19 November 2009 (EST)
******** I agreed renaming Tracy's ability into "Water and Ice Manipulation", but I think the Freezing page should stay since James Walker have it and Sylar have it in season 1.--[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 00:10, 4 December 2009 (EST)
********* '''''AGREE''''' --01:24, 4 December 2009 (EST)
********** I second that. [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 01:50, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 
== Page renaming ==
 
I think we should change name of this ability to cryokinesis.
*This has been discussed many times.  Look around in this page for the answers other received.--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 11:51, 28 November 2009 (EST)
**See first couple sections of the page. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 11:52, 28 November 2009 (EST)
 
== Split Article ==
 
I'm sorry, but this talk thing is to confusing. So I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but i think we should split the articles like what they might be doing with Jeremy's ability. Because obviously these abilities are different, and the name freezing doesn't cover all of the things Tracy can do. --[[User:Scorvi12|Scorvi12]] 02:21, 9 December 2009 (EST)
 
* I agree, because on the naming convention page it says that: "When a possible name for an ability appears in a canon, near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications: 1) Some abilities allow for multiple effects; for example, Hiro's ability allows him to manipulate space-time, with separate effects of teleportation, time-travel, and chronokinesis. While all of these names have appeared in various sources (teleportation and time travel in canon sources, chronokinesis in a secondary source), each describes only an aspect of his ability. Therefore, none of the three can be considered a canon source name for his ability as a whole; 2) As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability; 3) Such a name may also include or imply aspects of the ability which have not yet been seen. This differs from a descriptive name, which should not imply aspects of the ability which have not been seen. So long as the name provided includes all that is known, it can be assumed to be a canon, near-canon, or secondary source name, and should be treated accordingly." --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 00:06, 10 December 2009 (EST)
*Okay, the writers have told us several times that abilities can manifest in different ways.  What's happening with Tracy is pretty clearly (to me at least) that she is able to freeze things as normal, but after freezing herself solid, is able to liquify herself.  Her main power is still freezing.  Suddenly everyone is majorly gung-ho about splitting off articles when there's no reason to jump the gun. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 22:59, 25 December 2009 (EST)
**I agree, the name '''Freezing''' really does explain her entire ability so well. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 23:58, 25 December 2009 (EST)
***I think it's fine the way it is. Until we get a canon source that says her ability is something other than freezing, there's no reason to change it. The show isn't here to help us, we're here to help the show. If that makes any sense. --[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 01:16, 26 December 2009 (EST)
****How does it help the show to leave her ability as '''Freezing'''? Sure most people who are on the wiki have seen the show and thus know Tracy does more than freeze things, but I think it is extremely important to make the information on the wiki understandable to a newcomer. Follow me for a minute: a newcomer is on the site and reading an article that mentions how Tracy "floods Noah's car" and the words "floods Noah's car" form a link to her ability. The newcomer would click on the link, which would lead him to a page titled "Freezing". This would confuse the heck out of the newcomer. ''What does flooding some guy's car have to do with freezing things?!'' This causes much confusion for the person. Now, if "floods Noah's car" links to a page titled "Water and ice manipulation", that makes much more sense. ''Flooding his car, oh, she can manipulate water, I get it.'' But if we blindly follow an outdated source, we cause confusion, and how does that help the show? Changing cases such as these ''would'' help the show, by making the show more understandable and less confusing when presented on the wiki. --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 03:34, 26 December 2009 (EST)
****It's a slipperely slope. We make exceptions for this one ability for the naming conventions, then all our hard work could come tumbling down. I say we press harder for the BTE questions to be about ability names. Only then should we be able to change the names of ability with canon names.--[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 04:06, 26 December 2009 (EST)
*****If someone sees "[[freezing|floods Noah's car]]", then sees the page is titled "Freezing", they can continue reading the page to see how this ability is capable of that.  I think you are vastly underestimating the overall intelligence of the random site visitor. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 04:16, 26 December 2009 (EST)
******I never said the random visitor couldn't keep reading, but there is still that initial confusion. And even if said visitor continues reading, does that mean it makes any sense to him or her? Why on God's green earth would anybody name an ability that gives the user control over water and the ability to freeze objects simply Freezing? It makes no logical sense whatsoever (and to be completely honest, it makes us as a wiki look ignorant). --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 05:08, 26 December 2009 (EST)
*******I have to agree with Skullman. It's not clear what's happened to Tracy's power (I suscribe to the thesis that her power was always water manipulation, but all she could do at first was freeze it), but Freezing (the ability to decrease the temperature of matter) is not an accurate name for what Tracy can do. May I also point out we have another canon source that gives her a power a different name (from the Prodigals GNs), so why not use a slightly-less-canon (on an arbitrary scale, remember) name that fits the power far better? [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 06:32, 26 December 2009 (EST)
********I agree --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 00:10, 27 December 2009 (EST)
********Actually, the phrase "water and ice manipulation" came from the ''description'' before the GN.  For starters, GNs are considered near-canon (while episodes are considered canon, obviously), and the descriptions on the comics are not always written by Heroes writers (and in many cases are written by NBC staff).  It could be outright incorrect.  --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 01:00, 27 December 2009 (EST)
*********Like that honestly stopped us from using them to name abilities. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 01:28, 27 December 2009 (EST)
**********When we've had no other alternatives, perhaps.  Can you give me an example of an ability named because of a GN intro? --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 02:40, 27 December 2009 (EST)
***********[http://heroeswiki.com/Bone_spike_protrusion Bone spike protrusion] (btw sorry that it comes off as external, idk how to link internal)--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 03:00, 27 December 2009 (EST)
************All ''[[Under the Bridge, Part 2]]'' says is that he sends bone spikes in every direction, a description (when "spike protrusion" was already a suggested ability name).  --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 04:10, 27 December 2009 (EST)
*************And if not for the description at the beginning of the GN specifying that the spikes were bone, the name would still be Spike protrusion. So, yes, the name does come from the description (if not extlicitly). --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 04:29, 27 December 2009 (EST)
**************But you're talking about the ultimately miniscule detail that the spikes he protrudes are in fact bone, not an entirely different ability in action. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 04:33, 27 December 2009 (EST)
***************Where has it ever been stated that her ability is an entirely different one from before? Both examples show more about their respective abilities. Therefore, '''both''' examples should change the name of the abilities based on new information. Not to say that it wasn't known Tracy could manipulate water before Prodigals, but where else has it been so explicitly stated?--[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 05:11, 27 December 2009 (EST)
************(And to link internally, you would do something like this: <nowiki>[[Bone spike protrusion]]</nowiki> and it'll look like this: [[Bone spike protrusion]]) --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 04:12, 27 December 2009 (EST)
*The name "water and ice manipulation" is clearly not outright incorrect. We've seen her manipulate both ice and water. It's perfectly accurate, and so it's irrelevent whether it was written by a Heroes writer or an NBC staff writer (and impossible to check). Yes, Freezing is technically higher up the hierarchy, but it now only describes an aspect of her power, like Healing touch with Jeremy. Therefore, it's invalid as a name for Tracy's power, and should only be used until we have an alternative. We now have said alternative, so we should use it. [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 06:22, 27 December 2009 (EST)
** We've always considered the GNs description as a secondary source; so "water and ice manipulation"'s canon level is indeed lower than that of GNs or episodes, but still better than a fan-created term. Regardless, as splitting/renaming Tracy's ability is directly connected with issues with the naming conventions, it's better to redirect this discussion to the current debate ([[Help talk:Naming conventions#Conflicting rules/guidelines |see here]]) on whether or not to alter the naming conventions.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 10:48, 27 December 2009 (EST)
*I think that the pages should definately be split into "Freezing" and "Water and Ice Manipulation".  The reason being that this description describes all aspects of Tracy's ability and not just the freezing/ice part.  Even though the term freezing was shown on the show which is a primary canon source it is outdated because this was before Tracy's ability evolved into her control of water.  The graphic novel while being a secondary canon source is more recent and describes all aspects of her ability.  I think it's better to change the name because this way it describes everything she can do and not just a portion of it.--[[User:Heroesfan110|Heroesfan110]] 2:48, 3 January 2010 (EST)
*Split! the Canon information (which I think we're too hung up on) is outdated. Surely in-show experts would reclassify her ability given the new information that we've seen. "Water and ice manipulation" sounds good to me. --{{User:SacValleyDweller/sig}} 01:43, 18 January 2010 (EST)
 
== Unofficial poll ==
Sorry to do this, but I've seen this unofficial poll everywhere in this wiki (on pages that was nominated for name change)
 
'''Keep at Freezing'''
#--[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 08:38, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:Vampirate68/sig}} | 08:53, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 12:23, 10 January 2010 (EST)
#-- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} I believe we should use the names that are given to us, even if they're not perfect.
#-- [[User:Dean Harper|Dean]] 22:41, 22 January 2010 (EST)
 
'''Split the page into Freezing and Water and Ice Manipulation'''
#--[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 23:57, 8 January 2010 (EST) (Same as what the others are saying, let's split the page since we already do it on Ando and Paulette)
#--[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 01:48, 9 January 2010 (EST) Ando and Paulette were split, but Tracy and James aren't? Doesn't make sense to me.
#--[[User:Hiroman|Hiroman]] 09:40, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 05:58, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 09:35, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:Tanderix/sign}} 16:25 (Italy), 9 January 2010 (EST) (James Walker freezing and Tracy Strayss Water and Ice Manupulation)
#--[[User:Sebi|Sebi]] 12:13, 9 January 2010 (EST) (same as Tanderix)
#--[[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:56, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#-- [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 15:59, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:BoomerDay/Signature}} 16:10, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--<span class="nounderlinelink" style="border: 2px black dotted; background-color:green;">[[User:Push Pipe|<span style="color:black;padding-left:4px;padding-right:4px;font-weight:bold;">PUSHPIPE</span>]]</span> 16:17, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 16:22, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Ratclaws|Ratclaws]] 17:36, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Scorvi12|Scorvi12]] 23:01, 15 January 2010 (EST) - If Ando and Paulette's abilities are being split, then so should Tracy and James.
#--[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 07:45, 16 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Heroesfan110|Heroesfan110]] 17:00, 17 January 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:SacValleyDweller/sig}} 01:46, 18 January 2010 (EST) the outdated name would surely be changed to something like this by an in-show expert if one were in a position to.
#--[[user:"The Listener"|"The Listener"]] I think it should be changed and I am gonna make a page to show this? Enough people support it PLUS [[Ability augmentation]] and [[Red lightning]] were split without consensus so I think this is fair???? any objections?
#--[[User:ERROR|ERROR]] 22:40, 21 January 2010 (EST) - For all reasons stated above. Also, if Tracy's ability was the same as James Walker's ability, you'd think Sylar would have done the things Tracy has done, i.e. water mimicry. That would have been very useful for him to have, yet he didn't use it. The only conclusion, therefore, is that he could not have done those things.
#: Honestly, I feel like the intense heat torture, followed up by her cold snap, is what caused Tracy's ability to evolve.  She was put into such an extreme situation, that her ability was forced to evolve in some way to survive.  Had Sylar been put through the same, he might have evolved as well, but he had freezing for only 35 days before he lost it. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:22, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#::I agree. I don't see her developments as an entirely new ability; I see it has her ''reversing'' her ability. Freezing makes water solid, turning things (including herself) into liquid would be the reverse of that. "Poison emission" does not account for absorbing poison, which would be considered the "reverse" of that ability, but we use the name regardless. Now, I'm not suggesting that's a bulletproof argument, I'm just sharing my particular view on the matter.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:20, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Still the same ability, but the name wouldn't account for it. Using the poison emission example, it's just emit and absorb. Water isn't just water and something else. If Tracy's ability was what she had and the opposite she'd have temperature manipulation, freezing things and heating things. Her ability is about water, be it liquid or solid, and who knows, maybe even vapor, but that is for the next power upgrade if she ever gets it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:45, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#::::Freezing makes things solid, the reverse of that would be turning something into liquid. But I was only offering a personal opinion above.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 17:14, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::Actually, freezing things slows down the atoms/molecules to a slower rate of movement, which can have the effect of turning liquids into solids. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 17:17, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::I never said that it didn't....--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 17:18, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::::No, you said it makes things solid, which it doesn't always... some things are already solid and they don't ''become'' solid. If anything, by looking at physics, the opposite of freezing would be heat generation by speeding the molecules up, which would result in solid things melting, and the water would evaporate into gas. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 17:32, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::::That's depending on how her power works, it looks like she just freezes water in or around an object, and doesn't directly manipulate molecular movement. Regardless, I never meant the above to be a debatable point, I was simply stating my opinion.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 22:45, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::::: I'm in favor of the split, but that explanation of freezing is not exactly correct.  Without getting into phase diagrams, densities and pressures and what's going on at a molecular level, freezing (except in one case...liquid helium) denotes a phase change from liquid to solid, due to lowering of temperature.  You don't 'freeze' a solid, because that does not represent any phase change.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 23:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Heroesobsession|heroesobsession]] 17:14, 10 February 2010 (EST)
# --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 23:58, 10 February 2010 (EST) I believe once liquid water was involved, freezing no longer describes the ability.
 
== Image ==
 
Should we use this image?[[Image:Powers Tracy Freezing Flower.jpg|thumb|right]]--{{User:Yoshi n1/sig1}} 13:57, 15 January 2010 (EST)
*Nope, we used to use that image. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:10, 15 January 2010 (EST)
 
== Surely If... ==
 
Surely if Ando and Paulette's abilities were split, Tracy and James' deserves to be split! --[[User:Scorvi12|Scorvi12]] 04:55, 18 January 2010 (EST)
 
I agree, let's split Tracy and James ability. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 06:31, 18 January 2010 (EST)
* Difference is an explicit "expert-given" name for Tracy's ability.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 08:11, 18 January 2010 (EST)
** But, it was given before her ability had evolved into having control over and becoming water/ice. --[[User:Scorvi12|Scorvi12]] 08:16, 18 January 2010 (EST)
**Who said Nathan is an expert on ability names? --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 11:46, 18 January 2010 (EST)
***An explicit name is of no value if it fails to accurately describe the ability in question. I favour a split. [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 11:52, 18 January 2010 (EST)
****Out of the Heroes "reality", Nathan did not come up with Freezing in those files he handed to the president.  The writers or whoever said freezing because it was near an entire volume until they chose to giver her water mimicry.  Those files on her seem pretty clear that they are out of date.--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 11:55, 18 January 2010 (EST)
***** ''Seem'' pretty clear that they're out of date. We don't know for sure. The difference between Tracy and James/Ando and Paulette is that, since freezing is an actual phenomenon in the real world, it was pretty easy to tell that James and Tracy had the same ability at first, whereas something like "ability supercharging" is not something to can be clearly observed to be the same, if that makes any sense. Also, neither Ando or Paulette had their ability explicitly named, but Tracy did.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 13:10, 18 January 2010 (EST)
******Ando's ablity was like Paulette with an addition of its property to act as an electricity. Ando was the "charger" and the evolved human was the "appliances", an appliance like a cellphone was needed to be charge with electricity to be used. On Heroes case he amplify the ability of others through the electricity that he produce, but like normal electricity it was dangerous to normal people that's why his ability was dangerous to normal people but can help the evolved one. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 00:12, 19 January 2010 (EST)
 
== Weakness ==
 
Since Tracey has evloved her ability to water, I wonder what is her weakness, since it is like Claire Healing ability but better.--50000JH 16:37, 19 January 2010 (EST)
*[[Electric manipulation|Electricity]] to electrocute her? [[Heat generation]] to evaporate her? [[Ability augmentation]] and [[Red lightning]] would probably permenantly turn her into water. [[Dehydration]] is probably an obvious one. [[Gravitational manipulation]] - enough said. [[Microwave emission]] - does just as well as heating. [[Poison emission]]. [[Puppet master]] to stop her from using her ability then kill her. [[Sedation]] to weaken her then kill her. [[STM]] - stop time and kill her. [[Telepathy]] to destroy her mind. There's probably others too. She's really only safe from ''physical'' harm like punches. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 16:48, 19 January 2010 (EST)
 
Thank you for answering the question, I feel bad for disagreeing with some of your descisions and I don't blame you if you say why did you ask it then.
I see Telekinesis and telepathy could work against puppet master as it doesn't stop the thoughts only their movements. This is just a thought because she activates the ability using her thoughts than her actions so she is not using an action she could turn into water. 
Even through it been shown on the show Elle electrocuting when Kyle pour water on her this in my experience is false.
In school I remember doing an experiment, where we had two metal or carbon rods, a battery water in a bowl and a bulb which was connected with Crocidle clips and wires, just using pure water with no minerals to ionzise the water in the bolw, the light didn't conduct, but when salt was added the light bulb did as it sodium in the water.
Heating and Mircowaving she just evorapates and just condensate and cool back into water.
Sorry I should put this in the question, Claire had a spot in which she could be killed, do you think Tracey would have anything similiar.--50000JH 11:52, 20 January 2010 (EST)
 
==Just a note==
 
If this page would be called as Water and Ice Manipulation, wouldn't that not explain how she can turn into water, freeze things and create torrents of water? By what I uderstand with the name WaIM, if I were to first glance at it, I would think she could manipulate  EXTERNAL(already exsisting) sources of water and ice, and not create, induce or turn into them. We have yet to see her actually controlling ice blocks or anything like that. Yes, I know the name's near-cannon as it was said in a GN but still...--[[User:Realistic|Realistic]]
*As far as canon goes, it's the best name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:39, 27 January 2010 (EST)
**She has been shown to manipulate water outside of her own body... --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 17:29, 27 January 2010 (EST)
***Not ice blocks, but we've seen her create and manipulate both her own body and external sources of water. It's a far better name then Freezing for what she can do, in any case. [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 17:43, 27 January 2010 (EST)
****I don't know what exactly you guys mean for controlling ice blocks. I know she made ice spikes in one of the Ice Queen GNs.  --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 17:47, 27 January 2010 (EST)
*I'm saying that she actually "created" both water and ice from her body. With WaIM, it implies simply manipulating existing ones. In example, you cannot say you "manipulated" an icerberg when, in fact, you actually created one. "Manipulation" would be another action besides "creation". What Tracy does is to <i>create</i> water/ice and then manipulate it thus resulting in freezing objects and flooding cars. The name also won't account her "turning into water". Anyhow, I'm just pointing out my views about it. No need to take me seriously here. --[[User:Realistic|Realistic]]
**I agree, and beside the poll have many votes that favors the split even though it was unofficial. Why don't we made it official? --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 07:21, 28 January 2010 (EST)
***Because the show gave us "Freezing" explicitly, and one GN said "water and ice manipulation abilities" (which, if you'll notice, is using the phrase "water and ice manipulation" to describe the word "abilities", not as an explicit name). --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 08:58, 28 January 2010 (EST)
****Well, "Touch and Go" was also said by Hiro and Ando many times on the series "a canon source" why didn't we use it then? Instead we used a name given by one of us on the wiki. "Water and Ice Manipulation" was given on the graphic novel even though it was only on the beginning phrase, a near-canon source. Much higher than Matt Jr.'s "Activation and Deactivation" that was only given by us. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 07:51, 3 February 2010 (EST)
*****Freezing was clearly shown on a file, "Touch and go" is a colloquial phrase, which was used to describe the baby and not the ability, if I'm not mistaken.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:32, 3 February 2010 (EST)
******And in show, freezing is outdated, the fact characters don't discuss her ability doesn't change that. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:36, 3 February 2010 (EST)
*******Didn't say that it did, I was only explaining why we currently use freezing but not "touch and go".--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:37, 3 February 2010 (EST)
******** I think we didn't use "touch and go" because it didn't include the deactivation aspect.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 17:06, 3 February 2010 (EST)
********* We do not change an ability name to "cover all aspects", that rule is in regard to descriptively-named abilities not given explicitly.  [[Freezing]] was shown in [[Tracy]]'s file, and as such, it would take another explicit source (at least as definitive as a file) to change it. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:37, 3 February 2010 (EST)
**********You know, I can't wait until they release an Heroes Encyclopedia that details everything we didn't know about the company, ability names, that sort of thing. I will be epic. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 17:39, 3 February 2010 (EST)
***********Ricard, when all Tracy could do was freeze, that would be a solid argument. Since then, her ability has developed, and a new name has been shown, in the GN entry. It's not as high in the canon scale, but since an ability change invalidates the old name, that what we should go for. Let's say that someone had heat generation, and was so called. If that person developed developed the ability to become fire along the way, we wouldn't be able to call it heat generation anymore. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:47, 3 February 2010 (EST)
************And another thing, imagine if tracy had died, if another character entered with this ability, we would not under any circumstances name it under this as it would be called speculative. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 17:50, 3 February 2010 (EST)
*************Addition to what Mc hammark said, Noah said that the ability could evolved into something else. The best examples or only examples for this was [[Freezing]] for [[Tracy]] and [[Healing touch]] for [[Jeremy Greer]] --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 08:28, 4 February 2010 (EST)
************"''Since then, her ability has developed, and a new name has been shown, in the GN entry.  It's not as high in the canon scale...''"  Which is why this name cannot change.  --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 09:29, 4 February 2010 (EST)
*************The previous name has been invalidated by the ability change, it no longer applies to the current ability, which means the one in the GN is the top name for Tracy's ability. I remember someone making a very good case about the flaws of putting sources in a hierarchy. If Tracy could become water as well as freeze things when she was first introduced, would we call her ability "freezing"? Of course not. René was introduced as being able to erase memories and block powers. If he could only block powers and then developed memory erasing, we wouldn't keep his ability as "power blocking". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 09:35, 4 February 2010 (EST)
**************Would ''they'' have called her ability freezing?  It's not our job to speculate.  The show said "Freezing", so we say "Freezing". --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 09:39, 4 February 2010 (EST)
***************GN calling it "water and ice manipulation" isn't speculation. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 09:47, 4 February 2010 (EST)
****************GNs also get extraordinarily basic things wrong, like [[The Crane|periods]] of [[Graphic Novel:Doyle|time]], [[War Buddies, Part 1|names]] [[War Buddies, Part 2|of]] people and places, [[War Buddies, Part 3|inconsistencies]], [[The Death of Hana Gitelman, Part 1|mis]][[The Sting of Injustice|spelled]] [[A Lesson in Electricity|names]] [[Moonlight Serenade|and]] [[The Death of Hana Gitelman, Part 2|words]], etc.  The cover page in particular is rarely a reliable source. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 10:05, 4 February 2010 (EST)
*****************And episodes also show some pretty bad continuity as well from time to time, the latest episode in particular sparked some discussion because of the wonkiness of dates. Just because GNs can get things wrong it doesn't mean they can't get things right. GNs complement info given on the show, ability names included. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:12, 4 February 2010 (EST)
******************I would also just like to point out this same writer ([[Foz McDermott]]) is responsible for ''[[Boom]]'' (which featured a bizarre time inconsistency involving [[Level 5]]) and ''[[Yang & Yang]]'' (which featured the truly weird [[spider mimicry]]).  Now, perhaps he's not responsible for writing the cover page synopsis (which has been the case in the past), in which case we now have someone totally removed from the equation making the claim. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 10:16, 4 February 2010 (EST)
*******************There was a "timeline inconsistency" in boom as we were confused as to what year it was meant to be. Now we know it was in 2009 (when they said A year ago) it kinda makes more sense. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 10:23, 4 February 2010 (EST)
********************Not that, I'm referring to "Level 5 Compromised. Situation FUBAR." --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 10:46, 4 February 2010 (EST)
*********************Wait, what inconsistency was there? --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 11:08, 4 February 2010 (EST)
**********************Bennet was '''''in''''' Level 5 when the escape happened, and no other major events occurred until they had already returned to Primatech, gearing up to take down Pinehearst. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 11:14, 4 February 2010 (EST)
***********************There was Daphne opening up the cells, trying to recruit Sylar, and she recruited Flint. That would account for it. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 11:42, 4 February 2010 (EST)
*******************"Spider mimicry" wasn't created by Foz McDermott, it was created by one of the writers of the Slow Burn webisodes. He wanted it to actually be in the webisodes, but there was no logically way to include it, so he asked for it to be in on of the GNs. --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 20:27, 4 February 2010 (EST)
 
== Can I just ask ==
 
I just want to ask (especially to those who voted above to keep as freezing) who thinks that the ability ''has'' changed (but don't want to change the name of the page because it's canon, and who thinks that the ability still is the same one.
 
'''''Same ability'''''
# --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:24, 10 February 2010 (EST) If precognition is accepted as an aspect of Parkman's telepathy (but no one else's), then water mimicry is an aspect of Tracy's freezing (but no one else's).
 
'''''Different ability'''''
# I personally think the ability has changed, but can understand why people want to keep it under a canon name. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 20:22, 10 February 2010 (EST)
 
How am I going to phrase this? I believe Tracy's ability has always been what it is, she just didn't know what she could do, or had some sort of mental block on it because of the trauma of killing someone when she manifested. I don't think that her ability ever changed, but that due to her experiences, Tracy learned to access more of her ability. Hope I made sense. I believe that puts me in "same ability". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:26, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*Couldn't have said it better. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:33, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**Right, so you're going along the lines of, she never had freezing in the first place, but just displayed that aspect of her own ability first. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 20:40, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**Agree with IE and Richard.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:47, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***Mc hammark said what I think in simpler words. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:53, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****I agree.  Same ability since Volume 3, but was never the actual ability [[freezing]], like what Sylar/James Walker had.--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 21:00, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*****EXACTLY!! Jeremy got split from Linderman and Ishi, why not Tracy from James and Sylar? --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 21:03, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******Even if we split, ''Tracy'' is the one who'd remain with freezing, same as how Jeremy stayed with "healing touch".--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:05, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*******Then what would we call this ability? Have a Freezing touch and a Freezing page? haha --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:29, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********Hahaha not a bad idea -[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 21:31, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***Whoa, hang on.  I definitely wasn't saying she never had freezing.  Entirely the opposite.  I think it's a legitimate extension of freezing. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 21:59, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****So are you saying that her ability was always freezing and that the water control evolved from it? Or are you saying that freezing and control water was her ability the entire time, but she just wasn't experienced enough to use it?--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 00:05, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*****I am suggesting that her ability was always freezing and that the water control evolved from it. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 01:39, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**** Ah, but isn't deciding what is ''''a legitimate''' extension of freezing' speculation on our part?  If Tracy suddenly stopped time, would we just list that as an aspect of freezing, because that is the name her power was given?  While 'freezing' and 'water' may ''feel'' similar because you can freeze water, it really doesn't make any sense that I can see, either from a scientific standpoint or from general uses of the word.  The argument being made for freezing seems to be that we were given a canon name and that trumps describing all aspects of her ability.  As such, if she were to stop time, read minds, or emit poison, the same argument should be applied.  Is that what we would do?  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 00:08, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*****Even if all those things were to happen, until we got an explicit "It's not actually freezing." we would stay with Freezing.  On top of that, even less convincing than with Healing Touch, no one on the show has even ''suggested'' that her ability is different than freezing. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 01:39, 11 February 2010 (EST)
****** That's something I very much disagree with. First, one could argue that they did suggest her ability is different from freezing when they showed her turn into liquid, which has nothing to do with freezing.  Are we now saying that verbal canon trumps visual canon?  On what basis?  If we're going to be that strict with canon, then many things could be revisited based on that.  How do we know that Peter got flight from West?  Nothing in canon states that.  I'm not sure we even have anyone saying that Peter's current power is different from his old one, do we?  I know he lost his power and then took the formula and now can only replicate one ability at a time, but that's still speculative to claim it's different from EM.  Maybe he can only access part of EM.  How do we know the formula gave him a new power instead of restoring his old one?  The list goes on and on of things that we have to speculate somewhat on, because they are not directly addressed, verbally, in canon.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 04:45, 11 February 2010 (EST) 
******* Yes, we are saying that "verbal canon" trumps "visual canon".  Because "verbal canon" is explicit, and "visual canon" is implicit.  We assume Peter got flight from West because he asks Claire if he knows where he is, and other than Sylar, he's the only known EH with flight.  Additionally, it's very possible that AR is just a weakened EM.  But we don't know that for sure, so we can't say that.  We don't speculate on things when the show TELLS us what's happening. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 10:15, 11 February 2010 (EST)
********* "We '''assume''' Peter got flight from West because he asks Claire if he knows where he is, and other than Sylar, he's the only known EH with flight."  -- How is that not speculation? <br />
*********Also, visual data is not implicit.  We routinely base our findings on things we see, and don't hear (eg - acquiring of powers).  If Peter suddenly took off into the air and Claire said, wow, he can fly, and Mohinder responded with "No he can't.  That's just not possible based on his DNA. There must be some other explanation"...wouldn't we take what we saw over what we heard, and assume Mohinder (who is about as expert a canon source as there is) was mistaken?  Implicit, in the sense you are using it, means implied, which means 'indirectly expressed,' which is not the same thing as interpreting visual data.  "Sylar is more powerful than Doyle" is implicit in him overpowering Doyle several times.  Sylar having the ability of mental manipulation if we see him block powers and erase memories is not implicit..it is visually explicit (meaning there is no proviso in the definition of 'explicit' that denotes it has to be verbal..it just has to be unambiguous).    --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 13:01, 11 February 2010 (EST)
********** It's not speculation because the evidence overwhelmingly supports it.  There is no feasible rationality to support an opposing claim.  And I have to ask, what is it with people arguing their point with ridiculously exaggerated ideas?  "What if Peter flies, and Mohinder says 'He can't fly, it's impossible.'" or "What if Tracy could suddenly stop time." or "What if someone with super speed made everyone else slow down?" etc etc.  We don't deal in "what if"s.  The show says something, we write it down.  Simple as that. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:06, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*********** The show says things that don't go together. "What if"s is what we use for sake of argument, setting up scenarios similar to things that happened to see what the course of action would be, and them apply the logic to the original scenario. I never thought I see myself telling this to someone, but you are way too hung up on rules. There's no point in having them if they don't work properly, meaning they need to be changed or adapted. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 13:24, 11 February 2010 (EST)
************* With regards to West and Peter...on what basis are you deciding that Peter and Claire's conversation is 'overwhelming evidence' of where Peter got flight, but that Tracy suddenly turning into liquid is not 'overwhelming evidence' that freezing doesn't cover her ability (or that she doesn't have a second ability)?  Further, there is a feasible rationality to support an opposing claim to Peter getting flight from West, and that is Peter getting flight from an 'unknown source,' and noting his conversation with Claire in the Notes section, which is something we always do as well.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 13:36, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**************Regarding West and Peter:  Peter asks Claire if she can contact West.  West and Sylar are the only two known EHs in the show who have flight.  Peter obviously didn't rep flight from Sylar.  Thus, we can safely assume (well within reason) that Peter replicated flight from West.  To claim that Peter randomly met someone else with flight and replicated it from them, rather than West, whom he asked Claire about, is horrifically speculative.
**************Regarding Tracy: No one in the show has two abilities, as stated by the writers.  "Freezing" was explicitly given in a file as her ability name.  The only opposing name given was the term "water and ice manipulation abilities", and it was stated in the intro to a GN (so it's not even an in-GN reference).  Based on this, it is not acceptable to overturn an explicit, canon name in favor of a less-than-explicit, near-canon, not-in-universe name. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:47, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***************Regarding West and Peter...You admit you're making an assumption, but saying it is the obvious assumption to make, and yet you constantly say that we should not be making any assumptions, just documenting what we see.  Maybe Peter got it from someone else with flight; maybe he did get it from Sylar...how do you know he didn't?
***************Regarding Tracy:  I can name 4 people off the top of my head who have been shown to have more than one power...Peter, Sylar, Linda Tavara, and Arthur...and that's not counting future versions.  Again I ask, when was the last time the writers commented that each character has only one ability?  If it was their comment back in season 1 or 2, I don't think you can use that to support things that have come since.  As for her ability, it is as explicit as it gets, more accurate to what we've seen her do in all types of sources, more recent information than freezing, and at the very least direct evidence that she has the ability of water manipulation (it is explicitly stated, apparently).  I brought this up earlier, I'll do so again...Let's say that we get an interview with the writers and ask them about ability names, and they correct things we have seen on the show (eg - they say We know what it said in the file, but Tracy's power has evolved and is now officially called 'Water manipulation).  According to our naming conventions (and the point that canon trumps all that you are forwarding), we would not listen to a direct comment from the writers, because 'Interviews' is a Secondary source and trumped by canon.  That makes no sense to me.<br />  Heck, even in the naming conventions there are provisos for not simply accepting names explicitly given in canon:  "When a possible name for an ability appears ''in a canon'', near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications:  As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability."  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:03, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**************** Incorrect.  Peter, Sylar, Linda, and Arthur have one ability apiece.  It just so happens that their ability allows them to copy other abilities.  And even if they said it in Season One, Peter had already mimicked several powers.  The phrase "water and ice manipulation abilities" was in the intro of a GN.  Nowhere in the context of the actual show/comics/webisodes/etc has any character even suggested that her power is a new one.  Additionally, there are known exceptions to the naming conventions.  Explicit naming in an interview would trump everything.  Assignment Trackers fall immediately after that.  Files immediately after that.  Then it's episodes as normal, etc etc.  "Interviews" as a Tier 3 is so we don't take an off-hand comment like "I guess he points at glasses and makes them explode" and say the ability is therefore "glass-exploding".  Clear, explicit names trump everything, regardless of source.  And in regard to "all aspects": '''The rule is intended for use in Descriptive Names.  The admins have made this clear on numerous occasions.'''  This is not an issue of descriptive names, thus the name '''''does not''''' need to encompass every aspect.  See [[telepathy]] for a perfect example. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:03, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***************** I'll address these in reverse order this time.  <br />
******************  Telepathy can be said to encompass every aspect of Matt's ability, as defined by Bob in the show, or really anywhere else. See IE's post in the next section for clarification on that.
******************  UPDATE:  The exceptions are on the naming conventions page...hell they're even in a conversation I started...lol...just goes to show how fuzzy my memory is...now we just need a link to where it was stated that describing all aspects of an ability doesn't apply to explicitly named abilities...).......When have the admins made it clear that it applies to descriptive abilities only?  It must've been on a talk page somewhere, because the current naming conventions page makes it clear it applies to all levels of reference.  If they have adjusted the policy via discussion, it needs to be updated (with a link to where they specified this) on the naming conventions page.  If you can provide a link to where they said this, I will be glad to fix it.  The same with exceptions to the naming conventions...if it's not on the naming conventions page, how is anyone supposed to know what the rules are?  Until I can go and see the conversations where admins explicitly stated exceptions to the rules, I have to follow what is plainly printed on the appropriate page.  Since this has always been a hotbed of controversy, I am very surprised nothing has been updated, or even linked to, and it should be, if we're supposed to take it to heart.  Otherwise, many of the editors on the site, including all new ones, would be confused as to why the rules weren't being followed.  (Note:  Not sure if it's on the naming conventions talk page...I was involved in many of the old discussions, but don't recall if anything was ever officially decided on that front...I don't think it was).
******************  Again, I would say that 'she has water and ice manipulation abilities' is as specific as saying 'person X has ability Y.'  It's essentially the same sentence, grammatically.
******************* Actually, grammatically speaking, it is a collective noun being used as an adjective to describe "abilities".  It's effectively saying "She can freeze things, and she can turn herself into manipulable liquid.  These are her water and ice manipulation abilities."  It's describing the aspects, not defining the power itself. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:45, 11 February 2010 (EST)
******************  As for replicative abilities, I counter that your interpretation is incorrect.  We list (and always have) the characters with these abilities as having more than one ability.  That's why we call their primary ability 'original ability,' and don't designate the ones they gain as aspects of it.  There has been no evidence whatsoever that I've ever heard of that if Sylar were to lose his IA he'd lose his other abilities as well.  That's pure speculation, afaik.  Additinally, they are listed on the ability pages themselves as having that ability.  The bottom line is that there is any amount of evidence throughout the site that we consider these characters to have more than one ability, and none that states they have one.  IE even provided a direct canon quote right here stating that a character '''has more than one ability.'''
*******************Actually, we list them as having one ability.  Under that, we include "Absorbed abilities" or "Current replicated ability".  None of the "replicators" are listed as having more than one core ability. And actually, Sylar DID lose all his abilities (minus TK, a very special case) when he got the Shanti virus in Season 2.  When he was healed, all he had was IA and TK. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:45, 11 February 2010 (EST)
********************No, we list them as having many abilities, with one original ability.  The adjectives 'absorbed' and 'replicated' denote how the abilities were attained, not that they aren't really abilities possessed by the characters.  As for Sylar, I am aware of his loss of abilities due to the Shanti virus...but I am not sure what that has to do with the idea that if he loses his core ability (IA) everything else goes with it.  There is no evidence at all that I've ever heard of that indicates the virus took his IA and everything else went along with it.  In fact, you just pointed out that TK is a separate ability...it doesn't matter if it's a 'special case.'  To boot, we have an explicit canon source (Noah's comment) that Sylar ''has more than one ability.''  I don't really see how you can claim that is not to be trusted when the crux of your freezing argument is based on having an explicit canon source.  On top of that:  "Power absorption is the ability to steal the abilities of other evolved humans through physical contact, rendering them powerless."  The stealer of abilities now has those abilities as well.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:05, 11 February 2010 (EST)
****************Ah, I just remembered where it came from now.  It was when [[Parkman]] gained [[precognition]].  There were NUMEROUS questions about whether he now had two abilities or not, and the resounding answer was "Everyone has one ability."  It was during ''Volume Four''.  Looking for the BTE now. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:09, 11 February 2010 (EST)
:::::::::::You forgot [[Samson]].--{{User:Yoshi n1/sig1}} 14:08, 11 February 2010 (EST)
************ I'm sorry, but "What if Tracy could suddenly stop time?" is about the most ridiculous argument I've seen on here yet.  There is nothing gained by positing an idea like that.  The rules do what they're intended to do.  They keep this wiki accurate to the show, not combative to it.  --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:29, 11 February 2010 (EST)
************** This is the discussion page, not the article pages and, as IE pointed out, 'what if's' are used to make the point, not to claim we need to document the theoretical idea posited.  In this case the point is that if we see a character manifest something that is generally not covered by the previous ability name, we should not expect the writers to have to use up their air time finding a way to explicitly rename it for us, especially when the new power already exists on the site.  The other point I think some of us are trying to make is that the current rules are not sufficient to keep wiki accurate to the show.  (incidentally, I believe there was something similar to the Mohinder claiming impossibility thing, even beyond when he did so, repeatedly, in season 1). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 13:36, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**** Also, I think there is a problem with the idea that canon sources trump near-canon sources that come after.  Basically, you are saying that if the writer's want to change or clarify anything that's been in the show, they '''have''' to do it ''in the show,'' and not in any of the other mediums they provide.  That ties their hands unnecessarily in providing us with information.  Additionally, we have broken that rule before, namely with the AT's, so simply stating that 'canon source = end of story' should not be a valid argument on its own (I realize there may be other supporting arguments in this particular case, but I'm only referring to the times where anyone has stated it was canon, end of story).  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 00:13, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***** The GNs have a LONG history of being outright ''wrong'' about certain things.  Keep in mind that the television show is the primary medium. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 01:39, 11 February 2010 (EST)
******Also, GN intros are not GN's.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 01:44, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*******But we still used them to name abilities. We just can't be choose and pick which are right and which are wrong. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 02:53, 11 February 2010 (EST)
******** Agreed.  Whether or not the GNs have been wrong in the past is something of a moot point.  They are considered a near-canon source, written by the writers of the show, and have supplied us with much that we take to be as valuable as that of the show (eg - Is Peter any ''more valid'' of a character than Linda Tavara?).  However, my point was not to treat them as equal to the show...my point was that by saying a canon source ''always'' trumps anything else, even after things change, you are effectively saying that ''the writers '''cannot''' supply us with new information anywhere other than in the show'' (or that they can supply it...we're just not going to listen).  <br />  Look at it this way...let's assume the writers do an interview and explicitly state that Tracy's power is called water and ice manipulation.  They further state that they know they called it freezing in the show, but that it has changed.  According to our naming conventions and the arguments being presented here, this doesn't matter, and we should keep the ability freezing until it's actually stated in the show, because writer interviews are not canon sources, and would be trumped (just like the GNs) by the only canon source (ie - broadcast episodes).  That doesn't seem remotely right to me.
********Finally, the show itself is far from infallible, and has retconned and directly contradicted itself time and again.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 04:45, 11 February 2010 (EST)
********* The GN intro referred to her power as her "water and ice manipulation abilities".  Problems with this: 1. "water and ice manipulation" is being used to describe the word "abilities" (grammatically speaking).  This implies that "water and ice manipulation" is '''''not''''' a stated name, but is being used to describe her ability.  2. "abilities" is plural.  Every writer who has ever been asked has stated that everyone has exactly one ability.  This kind of an obvious error severely drops the credibility of this GN intro as a naming source.  3. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that Tracy's freezing naturally evolved to the point of being able to liquify herself.  She does not control liquid that is not a part of herself.  Like I said at the top of this section, if Parkman is the only telepath who can paint the future, then I posit that Tracy may be the only freezer who can liquify herself. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 10:21, 11 February 2010 (EST)
********** If someone said Hiro had "space and time manipulation abilities", that would still refer to one ability. Tracy has manipulated water that is not her, she used geysers against Eli. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 12:01, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**********<br />
**********#Re: 1.  I would then take that as a near-canon statement that she has two powers, one called ice manipulation (rather than freezing) and another called water manipulation.  In fact, the quote you provided:  "The GN intro ''referred to her '''power''''' as her "'''water and ice manipulation abilities'''"." is about as explicit as it gets.  It's the same thing as Noah saying 'He has the ability of flight.'  Once the word 'ability' is used, it pretty much takes away the idea that it is a description rather than a name. 
**********#Re: 2.  Several problems with this.  First, GN's trump writer interviews according to canon rules, so when they contradict each other, the GNs are to be trusted.  Second, we have seen several characters with multiple abilities, so obviously there are exceptions.  Third, what is the time frame on the writers' comments?  Was Tracy even around when they've made those claims?  Things obviously change in the Heroes Universe, all the time, so we can't base things on old interviews (meaning that, technically, anyone or anything introduced ''after'' an interview, would not be subject to what was said,m unless it was explicitly stated that the comments would apply to future events).
**********#Re: 3.  What I am saying is that freezing does not account for liquefication anymore than freezing would account for reading minds.  I agree with IE that we need to consider accuracy as well as canonicity, otherwise you run into problems (eg - Referos' poit of how we know a character isn't a shapeshifted Sylar, how we know Peter's phasing was mimicking DH's ability instead of an offshoot of something he already had (or for that matter, why we interpret EM as 'giving new abilities' instead of just incorporating them as aspects of Em once the holder has been around other EHs, etc). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 13:28, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***********No one has two abilities (without a replicative core ability).  Period.  The writers have made this very clear, on MANY occasions.  Re: 1. If someone looks at Parkman and says he has "mindreading abilities", do we then change his ability name to Mindreading?  It's a description, not a definition.  Re: 2. The GNs are to be trusted unless they contradict Episodes, in which case (like this one), the episode trumps the GN.  Re: 3. We've never seen anyone with freezing freeze themselves solid before.  It is entirely possible that liquefaction is a natural evolution of the ability, only accessible after the body experiences this effect. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:53, 11 February 2010 (EST)
************ Now you've added a rider, but it's still not even totally accurate, as Linda Tavara did not have a replicative ability (nor did Arthur, technically).  Please source the latest instance of the writers making that claim, if possible.  1.  It would certainly be a point to argue changing Matt's ability name, yes, to be measured against the canonicity of 'telepathy.'  2.  I have made my point about the levels of naming conventions, the problems therein, and the rider that's stated in the naming conventions for canon sources not always trumping lower sources when not encompassing all aspects of an ability.  3.  Sure it's possible...there's just no evidence of it.  Lots of stuff is possible, but I know you hate 'what if's,' so I'll just say that power evolution being related to freezing oneself is a 'what if.'  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:21, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*************I don't know if there is a more recent example, but when Sylar was first captured after homecoming, Noah told him that everyone has only one ability, but Sylar had several. It's all about finding a name for a core ability, from which secondary effects can be derived. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 14:24, 11 February 2010 (EST)
************** That's the one I was thinking of (and I think there was a BTE around then too), and if that's the latest one, it is completely outdated and should only apply to what we (or what the Company) had seen/knew up to that point.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:30, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*************** The BTE that stated this was actually during '''Volume Four''' when Matt's precognition came into question. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:12, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***************That's not what he said though, he said that all the individuals the company had encountered only had one ability. It's very plausible that the company never met someone with multiple abilities. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 14:31, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*Considering that this discussion now has very little to do with the power itself, and is only concerned with its designation, can I suggest that this debate move to the naming conventions article? Someone has already started one.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:02, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**Ok, I'm putting this here because the multiple indents is making me slightly dizzy. While I agree that Tracy's ability has never been freezing, I do believe that "water and ice manipulation" is a viable name. The fact that it says "abilities" is a moot point, this is the same as saying Hiro has "space and time manipulation" abilities. I agree with Desi on the count that even replicators/mimic/empaths all need to have an ability which allows them to acquire other abilities. On their own, I also agree that people have only one ability. And Desi, you just said yourself that WaiM describes the effects. Usually, I wouldn't say that this should be used to name an ability, but in this case, the description of effects is wide enough to account for all known effects of the ability. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:54, 11 February 2010 (EST)
 
== Aspects ==
 
I would like to counter much of this rename argument with a question.  [[Matt Parkman]]'s ability is [[telepathy]].  However, after his spirit walk, [[precognition]] became an aspect of his ability, despite there being no precedent for a telepath to suddenly become precognitive.  We have all come to accept this as a unique aspect of Parkman's telepathy.
 
[[Tracy Strauss]]'s ability is [[freezing]].  However, after her cold snap (in which her body was frozen solid), [[water mimicry]] became an aspect of her ability, despite there being no precedent for a freezer to suddenly be able to mimic water.
 
My question is: How is it so difficult to accept the idea that, as a result of her freezing herself solid (something Sylar and James Walker never did as far as we can tell), Tracy was capable of evolving her ability to have a new unique aspect?  --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:58, 11 February 2010 (EST)
* Precognition is more readily defined as an aspect of telepathy than turning into water is of freezing, imo.  Telepathy, canonically, encompasses 'anything the mind controls,' according to [[Bob|one of the most well-informed sources]].  Other than the idea that you can freeze water, there is no connection between turning your body liquid and solid.  I would be more comfortable with freezing being an aspect of water mimicry, which makes much more sense to me.  I state it in the mess above, but I'll do so again here since it may have gotten lost in the vast discussion...our naming conventions seem to state that an ability named in canon should not necessarily be used when it doesn't describe all aspects of the ability.  I've yet to see anyone argue how freezing actually explains the ability to mimic water.  I'm also not sure why we'd assume that freezing oneself solid has anything to do with power evolution anymore than using telekinesis on oneself as opposed to other things would.  I apologize if it seems I am being difficult in all of this, but this is the forum for debate, and I can assure you it is all intended to be friendly on this end.  :) --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:13, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**"All aspects" is a descriptive name (Tier 5) rule.  The admins have clarified this point on dozens of occasions now.  However, this is not a descriptive name.  Also, "anything the mind controls" has nothing to do with "seeing and drawing the future".  But we've accepted it as an aspect, despite the borderline complete unrelatedness of it. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:35, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*** '''"Also, "anything the mind controls" has nothing to do with "seeing and drawing the future".  But we've accepted it as an aspect, despite the borderline complete unrelatedness of it."'''  See IE's post below...it does have a lot to do with 'anything the mind controls.'  Technically, based on Bob's words, Matt could control other EH's powers when they're around him, though we won't record that until it happens.  I bring it up only to further illustrate the scope of Bob's statement. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 17:57, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**Matt's seeing the future has been clearly explained in BTEs. He can use telepathy to enter the same state on consciousness that precogs do when they paint. It's a sound explanation on how one aspect is derived from the core ability, something that doesn't happen with Tracy's ability. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 14:19, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***However, the BTEs also state that it was the event of going on the spirit walk that "unlocked" that aspect.  A single event.  Therefore, we accept that a single event can cause an ability to evolve in strange ways.  Thus, I ask how it is so hard to accept that a single event like Tracy freezing herself solid and being shot/shattered can "unlock" a control of water inherent in the ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:35, 11 February 2010 (EST)
****Because unless a writer confirms that water manipulation evolved from Freezing, it's speculation. What we see isn't always everything, def in the world of Heroes. There's always that equal chance that she had one "big" ability all along and just didn't know how to use that. Which is also speculation too. In truth, we're just caught up in something that is speculation left or right. The only way this debate will ever end is if a writer confirms one way or another, or some aspect of the show/GNs itself. In which case, if something within a GN (the story itself) does state her ability as more than Freezing, we'll still have a big debate due to this belief that canon will always trump everything. Even IF that everything comes after a change in the story element (which is flaw imo). We honestly have ourselves in a mess right now and should just take the moment to step back and ask "Are we doing this right?"--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:52, 11 February 2010 (EST)
 
== Poll/consensus on ability name ==
 
I thought about putting this on the naming conventions page, but since it also applies here, I thought I'd do it where more people will see it.  Basically, even though I know this has already been discussed, I just wanted to see what people felt about the GN that referred to Tracy's ability.  Please note, this is not a consensus or poll on changing the name of her power, nor should the issue of how this relates to the canonical name of the ability (freezing) be debated here (though discussion of why it would be considered a description vs a name should be).  This is simply a poll to see how people interpreted the passage...whether it was an explicit naming of an ability, or a description of one.  Here is the passage and source in question:
 
From the introduction of [[Graphic Novel:Prodigals, Part 1|Prodigals, Part 1]]:<br><br>
''After a conversation with Samuel in Washington, D.C.; Tracy heads out on a mission for the leader of the carnival. Finally finding acceptance and freedom with '''her water and ice manipulation abilities''', her quest seems much more her style than she first thought. But who, and why she is searching remains a mystery...''<br><br>
 
'''This was an explicit naming of the ability:'''
# --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 17:53, 11 February 2010 (EST)
# --[[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:57, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 18:03, 11 February 2010 (EST)
 
'''This was a description of the ability:'''
#--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 17:54, 11 February 2010 (EST) - Although I'm starting to question whether this should remain freezing or not, I still believe that this is a description, that may not have even been written by anyone affiliated with the show.
#--[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:07, 11 February 2010 (EST) I have corrected where this comes from.  It does not come from the GN proper, but its introduction.
#*The only flaw with that aurgement is that we had used a GN intro to name an ability.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 18:12, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#**Not when the ability already had a name. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:13, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#***Which became outdated the moment she developed something that the name of her ability can't account for. Unless they give us a description on par with the one they gave for how telepathy can account for precognition, this is outdated and therefore unfit to name the ability. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:15, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#****A canonically-given name need not account for all aspects of the power.  It is speculative to suggest that Nathan got it wrong. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:18, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#*****When Nathan got it, there was no reason to believe she could do anything other than freeze things, so no reason to give it a more encompassing name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:22, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#* I know there have been discrepancies with the intros, but aren't they the same exact level by our naming conventions (and, in fact, actually part of the GNs)? --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:20, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#** Actually, in many circumstances the intros are written by people ''other'' than the comic's author, sometimes simply someone at NBC, otherwise unaffiliated with the show. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:25, 11 February 2010 (EST)
#*** True, but what I mean to ask is whether we list GN intros as a different source level than the GNs themselves...and if they are ''sometimes'' written by the writers, I don't see how we can, unless we have access to that information.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:33, 11 February 2010 (EST)
 
*I'd like to note that the very fact that this poll is at all necessary is proof that "water and ice manipulation abilities" is not sufficiently definitive to overturn "Freezing".  Additionally, we also cannot say definitively that there is no way this could be an extension of freezing.  All of this is speculation. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:09, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**Not at all, it's a way to quantify who thinks like that. And as I pointed out a couple sections above, even if it's descriptive, it's viable for ability naming because the description accounts for all known effects of the ability. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:13, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***"All aspects" does not come into play with canon or near-canon names. Only Tier 5 descriptive names. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:14, 11 February 2010 (EST)
****Stevehim has been to the naming policy many times already, according to him, that is not the case. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:17, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***** It's certainly not the case on the actual article page...whether or not this was clarified during some discussion on some other talkpage is beyond my scope of knowledge, but Ricard has said that it has been clarified many times (I just don't know where).  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:22, 11 February 2010 (EST)
** It's more seeing how to interpret things than speculation.  I don't agree with the conclusion that the fact that I created a poll somehow equates to the phrase not being enough to overturn freezing (even though that's not the point of the poll).  I'm a quackpot, and things I do or say should not carry nearly that much gravity.  ;)  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:20, 11 February 2010 (EST)
***I understand that, don't worry.  My point is that if we can't even agree whether it was explicit or not means it's not definitive enough to move forward from there. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:23, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**** Can't agree with that, because the same thing could be applied to consensus checks/polls for determining name changes...it is not currently a valid argument to say that 'since we have to have a poll to decide if a name change is appropriate, that's evidence that it is not.' --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:33, 11 February 2010 (EST)
****From the [[Help:Naming conventions#Guidelines for names derived from Heroes sources|Heroes source naming guideline]]: "for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:26, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*****Yes, that is how the rule is presented in the guidelines.  I've asked RGS to take a look at the debate and weight in (I honestly cannot find where he initially brought it up.) --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:28, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*****Actually, he may not need to.  The very first rule on that page, for ability names: "Names given in canon sources: If a name is given for a ability in a canon source, that name should be used, regardless of whether it is the best description or not."  The rules also state that these rules are to be observed ''in order''.  Meaning, we have a canon name, so we stick with the canon name, until we get a new canon name.  GNs are near-canon.  --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:30, 11 February 2010 (EST)
******* No, he should probably weigh in.  ;)  The Guidelines section denotes how to apply the general rules stated above (ie - the one you quoted), so should be taken, from my POV, as instructions on how to apply the rules stated in the first section.  As for the 'canon needs canon to overturn it,' that's sort of what we have been debating...in this case, what happens when we have new information that doesn't fit with what we've been told canonically.  You have already pointed out 2 ''de facto'' exceptions to the stated rules...A.T's and Interviews...'outdated canon info' certainly seems to be a good candidate for a third exception to me.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:39, 11 February 2010 (EST)
********But you see, that's the problem.  ATs and interviews are explicit.  Claiming outdated info is speculative. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:41, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*********In any case, the very naming policy has contradicting terms, this debate can never be resolved until these cracks in the naming policy are dealt with. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:47, 11 February 2010 (EST)
 
 
== Naming Convention Guidelines ==
 
Under "Ability names":
 
''The following criteria should be considered '''in order''' when deciding the name for a new ability:''
*'''''Names derived from Heroes sources:'''''
**'''''Names given in canon sources:''' If a name is given for a ability in a canon source, that name should be used, regardless of whether it is the best description or not.''
 
The very first rule makes it clear.  We have exactly one canon name ("freezing").  "Water and ice manipulation" is a near-canon name.  It is irrelevant if it is the best description of not, "freezing" is the only canon name we have, thus we must use it. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:37, 11 February 2010 (EST)
* As I said above, there are two exceptions to this rule already, as you pointed out earlier...Interviews that give explicit names and AT's.  Neither of which is addressed in the actual rules themselves.  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:42, 11 February 2010 (EST)
** I'm not actually altogether certain that interviews or ATs have ever overturned anything canonically stated in the show.  Do you know of any? --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:43, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*** Gravitational manipulation trumped someone saying that Stephen Canfield "created vortexes". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:45, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**** I do remember that one being a particularly heated debate.  I think what it came down to was that "created vortexes" is vague enough to lead to several possible names, whereas "gravitational manipulation" was explicit (and considered canon as a Company file).  ... Wait, now I remember how this worked.  I believe once ATs were shown on the show itself (at the beginning of Volume Three), they were considered to be weighed equal to the show in canonicity.  I may be wrong. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:47, 11 February 2010 (EST)
*****I'm fairly certain that only Flint's and Knox's assignment trackers were shown. We saw Sandra holding Stephen Canfield's, but we didn't get a good look at it, unless I'm mistaken.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 18:49, 11 February 2010 (EST)
******The file was never shown like Flint's or Sylar's. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:50, 11 February 2010 (EST)
********* Not always.  In fact, Ryan addressed this on the talk page of naming conventions.  When things change in the Heroes Universe (eg - the future has been altered) we can adjust things accordingly, just as long as we keep the information that we had at the time on the old pages (eg - we don't go back and change the Season 1 pages when Sylar kills Charlie (which was shown and stated in canon), but we do use the new information as we move forward (even though in my example case, it was also shown and stated).  To take a more recent example...Angela outright stated that Peter could not stop Emma from killing thousands of people...explicitly, canonically, etc.  But he did (indirectly), proving her statement false.  Iirc, she even maintained her position after he told her that Sylar was the one who was going to save her.  Of course, these aren't the greatest examples, as they all involve the same sourcing level (canon), but it (hopefully) illustrates that data can be outdated and need changing.  Whether or not the new manifestation of Tracy's ability qualifies is a separate point.  (As a side note, the writers are notorious for sarcasm in interviews, even when explicitly stating things).  --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:49, 11 February 2010 (EST)
**********I'm confused as to what plot details have to do with ability names.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 18:52, 11 February 2010 (EST)

Latest revision as of 19:37, 29 March 2010

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible

Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine freezing's name.
Source/Explanation
Tracy's ability is explicitly listed on the file Nathan gives The President (Dual).


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Decision

Don't you think it's about time to decide if what we're going to do? Season 4 had ended and season 5 was still hanging. --Dark Master 01:45, 12 February 2010 (EST)

  • Read RGS's post above.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 01:46, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • But it was still nominated for a split --Dark Master 02:26, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • There's no consensus for a split. We were explicitly given a name for Tracy's ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 03:08, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • Also, keep in mind that not every page nominated for a name change or split will get one.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:27, 12 February 2010 (EST)

Phrasing

I've noticed that on several pages that mention a situation with this power, the phrased "turns into ice" or "became ice" or some variation of that is used. Turns into ice implies that Tracy is causing organic matter to become water with her ability, which I don't recall being mentioned. Is there any sort of evidence to back this word usage up?--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:58, 5 March 2010 (EST)

  • Yeah, when she froze others, we saw their blood when they shattered. When she shattered, it was pure ice. So, my thinking is that she activated the water mimicry aspect as she was freezing, turning her to pure ice. Or are you talking about the other people and objects? In that case, I wouldn't use turns to ice, I think we'd be better saying freezes. --mc_hammark 17:34, 5 March 2010 (EST)
    • I was refering to the other people and objects. Under the examples section it says that Tracy turns Claire to ice, and in Tracy's victims it says that she turned of the Building 26 fellows into ice. I didn't change it because I wasn't sure whether she was turning them to ice or not. But you're agreeing that she doesn't?--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 17:45, 5 March 2010 (EST)
    • I just found one quote in particular "Tracy converts Wade Winslow's entire body into ice, killing him". Saying someone turned into ice could simply be an odd way of phrasing something, but saying an entire body was converted to ice leaves no room for interpretation.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 17:47, 5 March 2010 (EST)
      • Yes, the fact Nathan talks about that man's blood still being warm on the wall (though I would argue it was cold) means that guy wasn't ice, and when Claire's foot came off, it didn't melt, it just defrosted. About Wade Winslow, I think that should be frozen as well. We have no evidence that he was completely ice. --mc_hammark 17:49, 5 March 2010 (EST)

Files of Primatech, Part 4

They used to the term "abilities" to describe Mindy's power. I foresee a possible backlash, but doesn't this set a precedent to use the "water and ice manipulation" abilities to name Tracy's power? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:25, 29 March 2010 (EDT)