Talk:Healing/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

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WARNING: Talk:Healing/Archive 1 is an archive of past messages. New messages should be added to Talk:Healing.

Villains images

Requesting an image of Linderman using his power to restore Angela's memory. --Ted C 10:02, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Heal vs Cure

Cancer is not just an injury that can be repaired. It's an ongoing disease condition in which mutated cells reproduce in an uncontrolled fashion. To cure cancer, Austin had to stop the uncontrolled growth of cancer cells as well as repair the damage to his mother's liver. To my mind, cancer is a disease you have to cure, not just an injury you have to heal. --Ted C 16:47, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

I know what cancer is, as having many family members with it. The reason why I reworded it was due to the nature of the narrative while the flashback occurred. He talked about organs failing, and how he healed them. In a way, he healed his mother by regrowing healthy cells versus cancer cells. For instance, research now in the field of "curing" cancer is regrowing healthy tissue instead of cancerous tissue, or organ cells instead of cancer cells, and removing the cancer cells. Again, the reason why I rephrased the description was because the ability is known as "healing", so I put it in terms of healing versus curing. Plus, who's to say that his mother was cured of cancer? She merely got better than her previous state, then he left. --Bob 16:56, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
- Given that we don't anything about how Austin's mother fared after he left home, then, I don't have any further objection either way. --Ted C 17:03, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
- I have tried to update the entry to reflect exactly what we know about th incident. --Ted C 17:06, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
  - Sounds like what I was trying to do. Good job.--Bob 18:59, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Nidia's Mexican healer friend (aka La Curandera)

She explicitly said "I am a healer".
She attempted to heal Maya in the same manner Linderman healed Heidi.
As she attempted to use her healing power, Maya's "blackness" blocked the healing, in the same way, and with the same reaction and sound effects as when the Haitian blocks Matt's power.
Her ability to know about Maya's blackness, and say no one could heal her, shows a understanding of healing, far greater than any 'fake' could be able to determine.--HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/1/2007 23:09 (EST)
- While she did in fact say she was a healer, what she really said is that she's a curandera. That's her occupation, not necessarily her power.--Hardvice (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

When I watched that scene, the sound effects sounded like those when Matt Parkman uses telepathy. I got the impression from that scene and both the visual and audio cues that while she may be a healer, her power itself is more along the lines of telepathy. (Admin 23:11, 1 October 2007 (EDT))

I thought telepathy, too. I doubt we'll find out anything more about her, and it's too speculative to say for sure. A note on her page at best. (Sounds like a good Behind the Eclipse question, though.) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:06, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
- Agreed. Her dialog could easily be thoughts Maya has on her ability (such as being filled with darkness that streams down from her eyes) and it sounds more like commentary than her actually identifying the problem. I think it's telepathy if anything.--Bob 00:08, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
  - I'll restate this again. Think about it carefully. There is no doubt, from the episode, that the Mexican woman used Telepathy. That power was not blocked. However, something else was blocked. Both of their reactions, as well as the sound-effects, showed something being blocked, while Telepath was working just fine. The lady specifically stated, "I am a healer". Exact Episodic quote. Then she took Maya's hands, and began to attempt to heal her, in the exact manner that Linderman began to heal Heidi. Only then, was a power blocked. And it wasn't Telepathy being blocked, she continued to use telepathy. None of her telepathic statements were ever cut-off, or blocked, or prevented. Based solely on what happened in that scene, and what was said in that seen, and how other episodic scenes in the past have dealt with those similar powers, this Mexican lady is both what she claimed to be, "I am a healer, and based on her results, "a telepath...a telepathic healer. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/2/2007 11:39 (EST)
    - Again, in Spanish, when she said "I am a healer", it's more like "I am a construction worker" (occupation) and less like "I am a telepath" (superpower). Curandera is a real, everyday occupation that real people have in the real world. They go around saying "I am a healer" all the time, and none of them have any superpowers. The abilities she displayed do not involve doing any actual healing. Maybe she's a telepath; maybe she has some kind of psychic ability to diagnose. But she does not display any sign of being able to heal people Linderman fashion whatsoever.--Hardvice (talk) 14:36, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
    - And she's still not Mexican. She was trying to cross into Mexico, not out. She's Guatemalan.--Hardvice (talk) 14:37, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
    - The confusion over what country the twins are in almost makes me want to create a map, a la Indiana Jones with a big red line from The Republic of Dominica to Guatemala, to Mexico, to wherever they go next. Then an article like "Event: Herreras' Flight" to help those without a good grasp on Central American geography follow them episode by episode. Being from Houston, I have enough friends from Central America that I'm fairly familiar with common migration routes. :P--NissanVersaDootDoot 00:48, 4 October 2007 (EDT)
      - Howdy fellow Texan. I bet you knew what a "coyote" was, too. As for the article--that actually sounds pretty helpful. It could be a good feature to include on Maya's victims if you don't want to write an entirely separate article.--Hardvice (talk) 00:53, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Notes

We have a couple entries in the Notes section about people who were called "healers", but haven't demonstrated any specific ability related to the power of Healing as it's being documented here. I think they should be removed, any other thoughts? (Admin 09:45, 2 October 2007 (EDT))
- While the scene with the healer did show more characteristics of telepathy, she specifically called herself a healer, and went through the same initial motions to heal Maya that Linderman did to heal Heidi. For me, trying to be the least speculative, it appeared that she showed two powers, Healing, (albeit claimed and attempted but not succeeded), and Telepathy. Maya's ability did not stop or block her Telepathy, because she was able to use it. The only blocking that occurred, was on her Healing power. If the only power she held was Telepathy only, then she wouldn't have gotten any readings, and we wouldn't even know she had telepathy because it wouldn't have worked if it were being blocked. Maya's ability blocked something, by her reaction, and by the blocking-sound effects. The only other power stated in the show, was Healing. "I am a healer". As cannonistically direct from the episode as it possibly could be. Maya's power didn't block Telepathy, it blocked Healing. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/2/2007 11:33 (EST)
  - The audio/visual effects were similar to Matt Parkman's when he uses his telepathy normally. So it does seem she used at least some version of telepathy to get an idea of what was wrong with Maya. But just because she calls herself a healer isn't nearly enough evidence to say she has the Healing special ability. It doesn't look like Maya's power blocked anything, the healer was just frightened by what she learned about Maya's power. In terms of canon, all that can be interpreted from that episode is that the womain claims to be a healer, not that she has the Healing special ability. Even as a note, this is misleading. (Admin 11:38, 2 October 2007 (EDT))
  - I watched the scene again and I'm not so sure anymore. Her power may be something like empathic or telepathic healing or something. So it's possible both are right and that the effect was Maya's power overwhelming the healer. :) (Admin 11:46, 2 October 2007 (EDT))
    - Also to consider, before dismissing this woman as a healer, is what Ryan posted over in the Lizards Talk. The credits specifically stated her daughter's name as 'the healer's daughter'. That's two specific episodic references to this woman being a healer....To say she isn't one, is more speculative than accepting what the episode redundantly stated otherwise. She wasn't successful in healing, so we didn't witness her heal....but the episode denotes twice, she is a healer. She was also power-blocked while attempting to heal, and she wasn't blocked from using her telepathic ability. HHHhhhmmm what was she blocked from doing? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/2/2007 11:49 (EST)
      - I'm not disputing that she was a healer. I'm disputing whether her special ability was that of Healing. Most healers don't have special abilities. They heal using herbs or medicines or even spiritual means. It's also unclear whether anything was blocked at all. She did appear to use a telepathic power to learn about Maya's condition. Whether that was plain telepathy or some type of telepathic/empathic component to a potentially healing ability is unknown. (Admin 11:57, 2 October 2007 (EDT))
        I would dispute that she was definitely a healer of any sort. Many people call themselves healers despite the fact that their practice is a bunch of malarky. It is just as possible that this woman was completely bogus as it is that she was completely genuine. She demonstrated no definite power and healed no one. Besides, the name "healer" can be equally applied to Claire, Linderman, Beth Lindall, or Dr. Witherson. Heck, even Sylar said he could fix or heal Brian Davis. I'm just not ready to make the leap that this woman was an evolved human yet, and certainly not that she has the power of healing. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:29, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
        I take the use of her title as "healer" pretty loosely, too. In fact when I first saw her I figured she was more of a "spiritual healer" or even, as you said, completely bogus. :) However if you check out the audio/visual cues you can see there is some sort of power at play. The audio is in fact very similar to Matt's telepathy specifically during moments of tension (they use a less tense version of the effect for other situations). Compare it for instance to the effects when Angela mentally screams for Matt to get out of her head. When it comes to audio cues that a power is in effect they've yet to try to mislead us. Audio cues have been pretty reliable so far (even if we sometimes mistake one for another). It definitely does seem that the "healer" has some power which if it's not a form of telepathy at least has a telepathic component and allowed her to sense the danger of Maya's condition. (Admin 12:46, 2 October 2007 (EDT))
        Devil's advocate here. This woman didn't do any of the so-called healer tricks, no herbs, no medicines, no spiritual conjuring or praying. Nada. None of that. She did however, go through the same process in attempting to heal Maya, as Linderman did when healing Heidi. A evolved human power was blocked, because of the sound-effect used in other shows to show power-blocking. Telepathy wasn't blocked, it kept on working. What power was blocked then? Was she trying to teleport? No. Was she trying to fly? No. Was she trying to turn metal into puddles? No. She was attempting to heal Maya when the power-block effect was manifested. Telepathy was never blocked. A normal shaman healers tricks wouldn't have been blocked using that power-block special effect. Bottom line, is we can brush her off under the rug of being an unconfirmed nobody, but the episode said she was a healer, twice, and she made no attempt to heal via conventional means; but did attempt to heal using the same evolved human technique that Linderman used, and was power-blocked from doing what she was attempting to do....heal Maya. She wasn't power-blocked from using telepathy. Had the show not used the power-block, then I would agree with you that there is no grounds to make a leap that she is an evolved human healer. But since she did use the evolved human power of Telepathy and it wasn't blocked, she is an evolved human in that right alone. No conventional means could have revealed those things to her like that. Since the of both the scene, and the power-block were in the context of her healing, that is the only thing the power-block could have been preventing. We shouldn't need tons and tons of episode appearances, and extremely tightly presented criteria to credit someone for being evolved. That one scene showed her being evolved on two different levels; and the lack of success of healing shouldn't prevent her documentation, no more than when the Haitian blocks Parkman or anyone else from not being evolved in regards to their powers. She should at the very least, be listed as an evolved human based on the telepathy she clearly showed, and noted as 'a suspected evolved human' in regards to the shows portrayal of her as a healer whose power(not telepathy) was blocked. JMO --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/2/2007 12:49 (EST)
        
        We don't know that a power was blocked. The reason you're associating it with a power being blocked is because it's the sound effect used when Matt Parkman reads a mind and no thoughts are spoken -- like when his power is blocked by the Haitian. But it's just as likely that she was simply reading Maya's thoughts and the producers chose not to let us hear those thoughts for stylistic purposes (like that it might ruin the story). The fact that she put her hands on Maya like Linderman does also doesn't necessarily mean anything because that's something she would do anyway in her everyday, real-world, non-superpowered occupation as a curandera. I can squint all I want, but it doesn't mean I have space-time manipulation. She didn't actually heal anybody, so there's no way we can claim she has the power of healing--especially bearing in mind that "healing" is just the name we have assigned to this power, so there's no reason to presume there's any special significance to the coincidence that they translated "curandera" as "healer" and we have an article called "healing".--14:43, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
The note on this page remains speculative by association. It would be like putting a note on rapid cell regeneration saying "Kaito fell 30 stories. Whether he survived or not remains unknown. Whether or not he has the power to regenerate is also unknown." Assuming the translated word for "healer" has anything to do with the power Linderman had is a neat stretch of imagination, but does not belong on this page. Doing so unnecessarily implicates the woman as having a power she may not have. Let's wait to see if this woman ever actually does anything other than state her profession before we write a manipulative note that leads people to question "what power, if any, the woman actually has". I'll remove the note now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:03, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

All I'm saying is, it's speculative to assume that she has this ability, or that she even has one period. Also, what's "devil's advocate" mean?--ERROR 21:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

"Devil's advocate" (a term which can be easily searched on Wikipedia and elsewhere) is a term used to describe a person who assumes an particular position in a discussion, just for the sake of the argument. Why are you resurrecting discussions that are almost two years old? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:21, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Peter?

In Out of Time, Future Angela refers to Peter as a "healer." While it's highly likely she was referring to his rapid cell regeneration (something she has witnessed), should it still be noted on this page, in the background/notes section, in order to prevent confusion? *cough*Or could Angela know something we don't?*cough* (It's likely that Peter met Linderman at some point).--Tim Thomason 20:38, 7 November 2007 (EST)

I'm no expert on Heroes' fictional superpowers... but i think he would have needed to meet him after he had manifested his ability. And since we see him manifest it and during that time he hadn't met Linderman i don't think he had absorbed his power. Sure Peter could have met him in the past... but i dont know if he was able to absorb Linderman's healing.--.Vault (talk) 11:43, 24 November 2007 (EST)
- Right. It's certainly possible he met Linderman before (his parents were both friends with him), but we just don't know. Until he demonstrates the ability or we learn more about his relationship with Linderman, we can neither say he has absorbed the ability nor that he was exposed to it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:11, 24 November 2007 (EST)

In addition, in the first episode of Villians, "The Second Coming", Peter kissed Nathan in the forehead, and then he's alive again, the same way Ishi heals, she kisses them...--NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 09:51, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Peter kisses Nathan...
...and he came back to life.

--NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 10:32, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I think Ishi's demonstration was much more deliberate--as if to say to the viewer "I have an ability in which I can heal". I think Peter was just kissing his brother. Plus, it was said that the bullet just went right through (I'm paraphrasing) as if he healed himself. I wouldn't add it to the wiki because it's speculative and theoretical, but I believe that Adam's blood that Nathan received in Four Months Ago... had a residual effect on Nathan's body such that he was able to heal right away. Ultimately, I wish that Nathan's recovery would have been a little better explained. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:52, 13 December 2008 (EST)
- I agree, specially as we were ready to believe it was Linderman as long as we did'nt know it was just Maury who cannot heal, but was sent by Arthur...User:Juba
  - I think it was Future Peter using Linderman's ability: he was exposed to Linderman at least once around the time he demonstrated Precognitive Dreaming, he probably absorbed it then and instintivly used it to heal Nathan. He may not have known what he was doing, but I wish the writters would make it clear for us.--WarGrowlmon18 00:13, 16 December 2008 (EST)

I thought Adam's blood healed him.User:50000JH/signature

Healing to the Limit!

I think Linderman can heal himself. I think that the first time we saw him on screen in season 1 where Nathan had a gun and Linderman was making pot pies, Linderman siad something like "Are you going to kill me? Many have tried." Or something like that, I haven't seen that Chapter in about a year. Anyway, I think because of that line he can heal himself. Also Ishi's ability can be known as "Healing Kisses", since thats all we saw. --Isaac Mendez 13:46, 6 January 2009 (EST)
- He meant that no one managed it because of his moab connections, you're trying too hard. And healing kisses? If Linderman used his healing ability while beating the living hell out of someone would you call it "healing beating"? I think not. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:06, 6 January 2009 (EST)

Plus, Linderman only healed by touching with his hands, so are you going to call this ability "healing hand touch," or "healing fingers?" No. Why would we do that? Linderman and Ishi can heal people's injuries (And more, but that's not the point). Their abilities are identical, therefore, the same. And that ability was explicitly named in a canon source (Well, maybe not explicitly, but we got a name from it nonetheless.).--ERROR 21:25, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Telepathy

In Arthur's limits of this ability section it is said that he can erase memories. It goes on to say that according to Linderman, this leaves scars on the brain but can be countered by someone with regeneration or healing. To me this says that he can heal himself. Or is this not substantial enough info? --mc_hammark 15:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

Not enough information. We know he can heal others, but we simply don't know if he can heal himself. It's a great theory, but one that's unsubstantiated, and can be refuted by other equally valid theories. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, okay. Arthur can erase memories, and these telepathic alterations can be reversed by healing or regeneration. But how do these facts suggest that Linderman can heal himself? Or am I interpretting this wrong? I'm confused.--ERROR 19:34, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Explicit canon name

We've been given a very explicit canon name for this ability in Jeremy's file: "healing touch". That goes right along with everything else we've ever heard about this ability--Nathan asks Linderman what he knows about healing, and Hiro calls his mother a healer. But the name of the ability is "healing touch". Awesome. Gotta love those assignment trackers! -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

I agree 100%. Let's move it! -- Psilaq R.- \m/ -_- \m/- 21:56, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
- The only problem I can see is that this ability doesn't just heal, it can also kill.--Gibbeynator 22:26, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  - Are we really gonna starts this conversation again here?--Catalyst · Talk · HL 22:29, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
    - I disagree, I say that this ability is Healing and that Jeremy's power is more like Life-force manipulation. Linderman and Ishi only had the ability to heal, it isn't the same power. It would kind of be like calling Accelerated probability and Super speed the same ability because a person with one and a person with the other could both move fast. Mr. Bennett said that Jeremy could control life force, give it and take it away. It isn't healing, it may have only been when he was 13, but it is more than that now and it only proves that the assignment tracker is outdated and inaccurate to describe his ability. Also, on another note, this page should remain Healing because Linderman has demonstrated the ability to heal things (like the plant in the picture) without touching it. I say that a new power should be made for Jeremy that is Life-force manipulation and that this page should remain titled Healing. --Bender 23:08, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
      - I agree with Bender. I think the Company was mistaken when they were first evaluating Jeremy, and thus did not categorize his ability properly at the time. --Whizzles 23:13, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
        We use the information given to us in the show. If it was called "healing touch" in the show, that's the name we call it, too. We explain differences, changes, mistakes, etc. in the body of the articles, not in the titles of the articles. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        
        I just find it ironic that the ability name got more literal, and yet we've seen things healed without being touched (Linderman, in the lead image for the article; pretty oxymoronic, don't you think?) --Skullman1392 02:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        He touched it before that. Remember he rubbed the leaf. --mc_hammark 07:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        I still want to discuss this, please see my reply at Tabula Rasa's talk page, link is in Catalyst's message, just above. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:51, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        
        The usual scifi name for this power is called Biological Manipulation. In this case, Linderman doesn't even have to touch it. And if it's just Jeremy who just has healing touch pursay, meaning to give and take away life, well Lindermann and IShi don't have that so it's almost like majority rules in the case of Lindermann and Ishi. --Jason Garrick 20:31, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        
        We never actually got to see the limits of Linderman & Ishi's abilities, they could have had exactly the same thing -- Jenx222 · U · T · C 20:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        If we start saying "we never got to see the extent of their abilities" than we might as well do that for every power. --Jason Garrick 16:09, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

touch of life

In season 1 Mr. Linderman tells Nathan. "You can pull the trigger and that we can both die," this could indicate that linderman could kill people as well as heal User:50000JH/signature

And it does that how? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
- I think he meant the fact that Nathan was in Linderman's casino where, if one little Japanese man decides to nick a sword 754 guards come running to get him, what would nathan be able to do? --mc_hammark 15:50, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
  - I'm confused, what I'm trying to say is if Jeremy can kill people and Linderman saying that statement that his power can kill, he also said many people have tried killing me but failed. user:50000JH/signature
    - More likely that Rule of Ted doesn't apply to him and he's able to heal himself from gunshots. That and he was in the Vietnam war. --mc_hammark 16:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
      - While not explicit, Linderman clearly means that if Nathan shot him, his security guards, or maybe Linderman's own mobsters will kill Nathan, if not right then and there, later. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:08, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        At the time of watching it that Linderman ability could kill or was going to kill Nathan.user:50000JH/signature
        Now that you completely changed your comment; Linderman wasn't even thought to be an evolved human when that happened. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:45, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
        Seen it in a magazine that I bought and had all the people abilities as well as episdoe guides. Sound sad I know but linderman saying "we can both die." stuck out and wasn't in the magazine.
        Like I said, "we can both die" is clearly a reference to his mob connections. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Linderman had his ability for long time and wouldn't be surpise if he kill things as well as heal thing, why are people suggesting that only Jeremy is restricted to killing thing as well as healing.user:50000JH/signature

No one suggested Jeremy can only kill, nothing indicates that Linderman could ever harm with his ability, you say the wildest things without a shread of evidence. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Chinese woman

Since Noah mentioned her as having the same ability as Jeremy, I'll add her as an unconfirmed holder of this ability. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

...I really need to check pages before doing stuff. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:53, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
- When did noah say there was a chinese woman with the same ability? daevon 16:13, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
  - When he and Peter find Jeremy's parents, Noah mentions her. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:14, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

Kind of funny to think

It would be possible to use healing to kill claire. -\(O-o)/-Gamerelite1 22:55, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Actually I was just thinking about the same thing... would it be possible to kill Claire using this ability? --Skullman1392 23:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
- Ha ha I think it would be great to get rid of her this way once and for all, if Peter kills her... AltesUTC CH
  - lol, it seems you wanne kill alot of people eh :p -- (WaterRatj) 03:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Jeremy

I thought it was made cleared that Jeremy doesn't have "healing touch". Instead, I thought Noah said he had the ability to take or restore life. How does taking life count as healing?--OutbackZack 01:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

His ability is named on his assignment tracker, a canon source, so we stick onto it. AltesUTC CH
- Noah said to Jeremy that he'd be sticking around until he was sure Jeremy was ok, so hopefully Jeremy will have some questions about his ability. --mc_hammark 06:33, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
I agree with OutbackZack, the company thought his ability was a healing touch because that's all they saw him do (ie heal dying flies). When Noah sees/smells the death in the house he explains that they had found a girl who could take life and give it. The AT based his ability as healing touch because that's all they saw him do before. It's old non updated info.. Btw I thought it was cool how they showed the assignment tracker during the episode :) --Peter
- Right or wrong, the name we've been given is "healing touch". That's the name we use. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:03, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
  - Even if the circumstances in which the name was given is flawed? Sounds like a flaw in our ability naming system. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 08:15, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
  - Yes, if the system is flawed, then you fix it. That's what makes us different from computers. We can fix these flaws. --mc_hammark 10:46, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
    - Thing is, it doesn't feel like other people want to fix it as well. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:54, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
    - I hope Amanda shows up in the carnival next week and someone calls her ability pyrokinesis! That would make it canon and ruin our naming system!!! --mc_hammark 11:07, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
We should rethink the naming convention and consider the fact that Jeremy's assignment tracker was outdated. There's gotta some sort of rule that whatever name was given to the ability can only describe that ability up to that point in time. Anything about the ability that changes would call for the possibility of renaming the ability. I don't know where we would go from here to possibly add such rule to the naming convention. --OutbackZack 17:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
IMO Jeremy's ability should have its own page. His ability is too different to be a "healing touch" in the sense that he also has a "killing touch". "Healing" (touch or no) is an aspect of his ability; not the ability itself. The same, i think, is true for precognition and precognitive dreaming. P is an aspect of PD but they're different abilities (according to heroeswiki). How can we have two cases that are so similar with two opposite outcomes? --Peter 20:26, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
- Jeremy had the ability to heal. That ability evolved. This is common in the world of Heroes--see ability development. The new aspects of the ability don't mean that the person has an entirely new ability, just that they can do some extra things with it. Matt and Maury still have the same ability, even though Matt could do more with it. We've been explicitly told by writers that Santiago and Edward had the same abilities, even though Edward could do incredibly different things with it than Santiago. Just because Samuel can do more with his ability than Sparrow does not mean they have different abilities. And the natural evolution of Jeremy's ability does not mean that it's different than Ishi's--it only means that Jeremy learned to do more with it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:06, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
  - But the new aspect makes he name of the ability unfit, as per the naming convention. Matt and Maury do have the same ability, but they both started at the same point. Jeremy clearly started way ahead of Linderman and Ishi for him to have the same ability. If negative emotions (anger, fear, and the like) are the trigger for kill part of the ability, then why didn't Linderman kill anyone when he was in the army? Sparrow and Samuel still have the same trunk ability, but comparing Jeremy to Linderman and Ishi, he already started with a branch. Man I miss BTE. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:54, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
    - Perhaps an example from the world of physics can help? In physics, there's no such thing as deceleration... merely acceleration in the negative direction. 'S why you can achieve the same outcome (to some extent) by speeding up through a curve as you can by slowing down through one. Jeremy's ability to take life is just this- healing in the negative direction. Just because we never saw Ishi or Linderman kill with their power doesn't mean they couldn't, nor does it mean they didn't develop that ability at some point... it could go some way towards explaining why Linderman was so in control of his emotions. To use another example from the world of Heroes, we list Arnold and Hiro as having the same power of space-time manipulation. Arnold can use his ability to summon people from other points in time, and send them back without accompanying them... Hiro cannot. Does this mean Arnold and Hiro have different powers? Of course not. It merely means Arnold has more fully explored his ability than Hiro did. So, in summary: I think "healing touch" is a good description of the power- it's the way the ability first manifests, and the way most of the examples we've seen have used it. To me, the deaths Jeremy caused are another cautionary tale of uncontrolled abilities. Product Placement 16:29, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
      - Your argument doesn't work all the time though. 1) People with freezing (no matter how good they are at it) cant heat things too. If I'm pissed off at someone and act cold to them, when I touch them they should freeze and when I'm happy and feel warm and fuzzy, when i touch people their skin should start to burn. But it doesn't. Emotions can't suddenly make your ability to the opposite things. 2) When Maya was happy people didnt just start to come back to life (after being previously dead), they stayed dead. Because her ability cant do that... Jeremy can kill people because his ability is different. It's "Jeremy's ability" not healing touch (because he can also kill!!). --Peter 19:02, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
      - Are you responding to my comment? If so, I think you missed the general thrust of it. No, someone with freezing can't cause fires, but Tracy's ability grew from mere freezing to full control of water. Water freezes when its molecular energy reaches a certain point- thus, she is able to "calm" the molecules to a point where they freeze. Boiling would require the introduction of energy into the system, and would therefore require a source of said energy- and the energy required to heat every molecule of water in a human body by around 70 degrees C would be astronomical... where freezing only requires that she reduce absorb 30C of energy from each of the molecules. Enough to raise her temperature a few degrees in the short term, but maybe she just steams it off. The point I'm trying to make is that powers evolve. For Tracy, her ability to manipulate water allows her to freeze things, at first, but later became what it is now. In other words, her power is two sides of the same coin. It is the same with Jeremy. Life and death are simply two sides of the same coin- death is only the absence of life. I see your point about emotion, but you're missing the bigger one: strong emotions, such as anger and fear, can cause unexpected, uncontrolled, and sometimes disastrous ability activation. Tracy was scared and angry, and accidentally froze a reporter solid. Jeremy was angry, and accidentally killed his parents. And need I mention good old exploding Ted? Product Placement 19:55, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        Nothing suggests Arnold can summon people from different times. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:14, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        True, it is never explicitly stated on screen, but Tracy and Samuel disappear from Georgia in broad daylight, appear outside Baltimore in the night time, and return to Georgia not long after they left. It heavily hints to me that he can. Regardless, he can push people through time without having to travel with them, and Hiro could not. We've never seen him stop time either, but it's assumed that he can... Product Placement 01:53, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
        
        Product Placement, emotions directly affect abilities. Had Maya never cried she never would've used her ability and killed anyone. But that doesnt mean she didnt have the ability to. Its in your DNA. Jeremy's ability didn't suddenly change from healing to killing when he got mad. Its the same ability. But that ability isnt "Healing touch". Its "life force controlling" or something else. His ability lets him control people's life forces. Yes that included having a "healing touch" but being able to teleport doesnt mean you can also move through time if you were mad or scared or any emotion. --Peter 20:46, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        It seems we're saying the same thing to different purposes. Emotion doesn't change the power, but it can cause it to activate and/or behave outside expectations. I don't necessarily think "healing touch" is the best name for it, but I'm making this argument for two reasons: 1) the conventions state that we're stuck with canon names, and it's this or "Life and Death"- as someone who has always loathed the name "Bliss and Horror", I'd rather not see that happen; 2) I don't think Ishi and Linderman's power was different in any way from Jeremy's. My personal take on the name is that it should be something akin to "Cell Manipulation"; "life force" isn't going to knit a shotgun wound closed, but accelerating the regeneration of someone's somatic cells will... similarly, causing all their cells go in to apoptosis would be quite an effective way of killing them. I do think it's a stretch to say if Maya had never cried, her power would never have activated... it's a bit like saying Emma's power would never have activated if she hadn't gone deaf. Product Placement 01:53, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Just had a look at the naming conventions:

This section states:

When a possible name for an ability appears in a canon, near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications
As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability.

Healing touch describes an aspect of this ability. That's what the convention states, so is this name not wrong for an ability name? --mc_hammark 15:12, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

Very good point mc. I don't think this is the best name. I still think Jeremy should be listed as having a different ability, but at the very least, the name needs to be changed. --Skullman1392 17:12, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
- If we don't use "healing touch," the only other option at this point would be "Jeremy's ability". All other names that I have seen so far have been speculative. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:47, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
  - We could take a page from Matt Jr's ability and call this "healing and killing". For me anything like along the lines of "life manipulation" or "biological manipulation". I know someone else mentioned this, but what Jeremy does reminds me a lot of Shawn Farrel from The 4400. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:12, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
    - I agree. Any one of those names would be fine by me. If we came to a consensus we don't have to use the name "Jeremy's ability", and if we did, it would be more accurate either way.--OutbackZack 04:45, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
      - My only question: Would Jeremy have his own abillity page, or would Linderman and Ishi's ability names be changed again? Because I still think their abilities are different. --Skullman1392 10:20, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
      - I would be opposed to "healing and killing," and very much opposed to "life manipulation" and "biological manipulation". I don't think that's what Jeremy's power is. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:24, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
      - Didn't Bennet specifically say to him: "You can control life" or something close to that? Being able to control life definitly isn't the same as healing touch. --Skullman1392 10:28, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
        sorry, he said "you can control it" my bad. But I still think his ability is different.
        
        PS I think the initial statment can apply elsewhere. --Skullman1392 10:44, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
        
        It can apply to a LOT of elsewheres, but trust me, I've fought the good fight for a bunch of them before and its a losing battle. And most likely will be one here, too. --Action Figure 13:14, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Notes about tumor

On the notes section it's said that if a person with a tumor was injected with regerenative blood, it wouldn't heal the tumor, but instead make it grow faster. As it's not canon, I think it should be removed. Mateussf 16:00, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Noah said that's what would happen, but it has nothing to do with healing touch. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:03, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
- In which episode did he say this? Mateussf 16:05, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
  - Tabula Rasa, the latest episode. Claire offered to give Hiro some of her blood, but Noah said that it wouldn't work. He said that Hiro's tumor is living tissue, so it would only make the tumor grow faster. However, I removed the line from this page because it really has nothing to do with Jeremy's ability (or Linderman's ability, which is what the note was talking about). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:09, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
    - Ok, thanks. I haven't watched it yet. Mateussf 16:11, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Noah, why?!

Why'd you have to go and say "Dual ability: life and death"? D:--Riddler 20:09, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

It just means that the ability encompasses two different things. Sort of like how tracy can manipulate water and ice.
- It's what he stated that made it interesting. Not once, can I recall, that anyone has pointed out that a person can have a dual ability. It was always stated that everyone has only ONE ability unless your ability is to adsorb other abilities. --OutbackZack 21:33, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
  - Well he still only has one ability. It's just merely stating that it's like having 2 in 1.
    - Which is why I think his ability isn't healing touch as Noah tried to point out. --OutbackZack 23:15, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
      - I would much rather have "life and death" over "healing touch", and if life and death isn't the way, I'd still rather have it as "Jeremy's ability". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:54, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        I think "Life-force Manipulation" is more appropriate name if the name was going to be changed--Darkfiremaster13 18:29, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        Biological manipulation is my vote and first choice, and if that doesn't work out, my second vote is Life-force Manipulation.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 18:31, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        Whatever name we choose will come from the show, and will not be a descriptive name in this case. Noah never said that Jeremy has two abilities--he said that Jeremy has "dual ability", which I take to mean it's an ability that can do two things. (The Haitian is another person who, in my theory, has a dual ability--he can erase memories and block powers.) Anyway, Noah also said "life and death". I think that's a good name for the ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:13, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        Life and death kind of sounds like a recurring theme instead of an ability name. I mean watch this conversation, "So, what's your ability?" -- "My ability is life and death, what's yours?" Sounds a bit awkward.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 22:20, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        I agree, it's not smooth...but it's the only choice other than "healing touch". It comes down to those two names: "healing touch" or "life and death". I don't care one way or the other. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:54, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        Well of those are the only options, my vote is to stay where we are.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 22:56, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        I think Noah just said "Life and Death" to describe Jeremy's ability, not as the ability name itself. But I think we can't do anything about it if they named it "Life and Death".--Darkfiremaster13 05:18, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
        Uuuum, perhaps his ability simply evolved? This has been said before but, like Tracy, Jeremy had one original ability, Healing. As he grew older, this ability evolved and also allowed him to decrease the health of living things. So, his ability is still Healing, he just has an advanced form of it. Remember Santiago and Edward? They could do different things with their powers but it is still Accelerated Probability. Even though Noah said "Dual ability" or "life and death", it is just describing his actual ability: advanced healing touch. Josh KorolenkoUTChronicles
        Noah already confirmed that abilities do evolve when he stated that the woman from China managed to evolve her healing ability to total life control. To end the discussion, my suggestion is to create a page for abilities that have evolved. And simply insert in the character infoboxes about these abilities, similarly to what we've done for synthetic abilities. Here's a page (User:NiveKJ13/Ability Evolution) that I have created and everyone is free to contribute until it would be enough for Wikipedia standards. --NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 10:10, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
        I rather have "life and death" over listing him as having an ability he doesn't possess. We have "bliss and horror" and "activation and deactivation" already, we're not breaking new grounds here. And Noah said that the woman manifested an ability that they considered to he healing, but that wasn't all it could do. There was no indication of a time skip in which she her power evolved. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:37, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
        But it sound right with activation and deactivation because of the tion. It makes it sound like something you can do. Manipulation; something you can do. You can't do life and death. And I have never been fond to the name bliss and horror.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 11:41, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
        Both of these names sound either wrong, or clunky. Healing touch sounds wrong because he can kill with his power, and don't even get me started on Life and Death! Out of these though, I'd rather have Healing Touch, with an infobox detailing how Jeremy's power evolved. But, I REALLY like Life-Force Manipulation. To bad nobody in an episode has said it yet! :-(--Hiroman 13:14, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
        I would also rather see Jeremy as the only person having this ability. Keeping Ishi and Daniel with him after a rename would imply they also are capable of killing, something which was never suggested. Take Linderman, he was in the war, certainly had a fair share of negative emotions, yet he never killed with his ability. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:42, 28 October 2009
        I agree! Perhaps we should create a new page for Jeremy's ability and leave Linderman's and Ishi's as it is.What does everybody else think?--Hiroman 13:18, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Jeremy's power was defined quite clearly as originally being able to heal people. The same way Linderman and Ishi did it. Then it evolved. They are the same power, in the way that Sylar and Tracy's freezing powers are the same power. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:47, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

I vote to stay the same. No reason to change the name that was explicitly given to us. Gamerelite1 19:52, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
- I agree, keep it the same as it is, no need to change --Jenx222 · U · T · C 19:55, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
  - Keeping things like they are means saying that Linderman and Ishi could kill with their abilities, which they couldn't. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:57, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
    - No I mean the name, just keep it as healing touch, but expand on Jeremy's version of the ability saying that it's adapted or progressed to the point where he can reverse the affects. Maybe the others could do it as well, but I doubt we'll ever find out --Jenx222 · U · T · C 20:03, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
      - According to our ability naming convention, an ability name must be able to include all of the effects of the ability. Healing touch covers only one aspect of the ability. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:04, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
        But that name came from a cannon source, so maybe we should split linderman and ishi's healing touch from jeremy's ability, maybe the company mis-diagnosed his ability when his assignment tracker was completed --Jenx222 · U · T · C 20:13, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

To say that Linderman and Ishi have the same ability as Jeremy is speculation at best. That's like saying Hiro and Rachel have the same ability. If, and I vote for this, change Jeremy's ability name to something like "life and death" then it's a separate ability from both Linderman and Ishi. Just because they share the same aspects doesn't mean they share the same ability. --OutbackZack 20:28, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

What should we do with linderman and ishi's abilities then? keep them as healing touch or change them back to just healing? --Jenx222 · U · T · C 20:37, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
- I say leve them as just Healing, that was fine before, and nobody ever stated that touch was neccessary to heal. But Jeremy should definitely be split; these abilities would go under Ability homology, there is no evidence they have the same power... that is like saying Hiro and Rachel have the same power, but Rachel's hasn't evolved as far as Hiro's has... it is too speculative. --Skullman1392 20:57, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
  - I actually never thought of that Skullman. That is very true. They should be split into two abilities, "Healing", and I think "Jeremy's ability" ("Jeremy's ability" for now).--Catalyst · Talk · HL 21:27, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
    - I agree, let's split them and change healing touch back to healing --Jenx222 · U · T · C 21:30, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Wouldn't it be easier if we do it like this? And why is the name being changed to "life and death", didn't Noah mention that the woman from China "managed to evolve her ability to total life control".--NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 05:44, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

I think "Life Control" was not appropriate, if he can control life he can just revived his parents rather than being caught by the sheriff. I think he can only heal injured people and those nearing death like what happened to Peter. I'm still voting for the "Life-force Manipulation" death people don't have a life-force in them right, that's why he can't revived his parents and the others that he killed. I also agreed that Jeremy must have another page and not included on Linderman and Ishi. --Darkfiremaster13 06:19, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

If it is properly interpreted, it is a correct name, see my reasoning: Jeremy can control life, meaning he can heal by "increasing life" and harm by "taking life". However, he can't resurrect people because once they're dead, there's no more life he can control. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:22, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

I think it was kinda the same as my interpretation right? --Darkfiremaster13 17:32, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

Not exactly. You implied that we cannot name the ability "Life Control" because it somehow means that Jeremy should've been able to revive his parents, which he didn't manage to. While Intuitive Empath disagreed with you somehow, he said that it is possible to name the ability "Life Control" because what you implied is flawed. It is not possible for Jeremy to resurrect his parents since the is no life on them, since he is only able to control "life". PS, Linderman did rub the plant before it was healed back to life. --NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 08:28, 30 October 2009 (EDT)

I think it was the same, because now that I think of it "Life Control" and "Life-force Manipulation" were kinda like the same. Sorry my bad. --Darkfiremaster13 06:43, 11 November 2009 (EST)

- - - - If we're going to split it, then we need to keep Linderman's and Ishi's ability named "Healing Touch". That's the cannon name given to their ability (an it's what the company thought Jeremy had but he didn't) and I agree to keep Jeremy's ability page as "Jeremy's ability". --mc_hammark 17:02, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
        Linderman can heal without touching, he healed the plant even though he didn't touch it and Ishi was trough a kiss, lets put it back the way it is as just Healing.--Darkfiremaster13 17:32, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
        He did touch it, he spent a couple of seconds rubbing the leaf with his thumb and finger. --mc_hammark 17:34, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
        I think his hands were in the air just near the plant. --Darkfiremaster13 18:22, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
        Nope, he definitely rubbed the plant. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:00, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
        Yes, he did rub the plant. I will agree to keep it as healing touch (though I still prefer healing) and split to Jeremy's ability until we have an agreed name for it.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 20:29, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
        Ok, it was just a thought --Darkfiremaster13 08:39, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
        Just watched the episode and the plant didn't move just "healed". If Linderman really rubbed the plant wouldn't the plant move slightly on the direction where his hand are moving. P.S. His hand were circling on one side of the plant. --Darkfiremaster13 06:43, 11 November 2009 (EST)
I'm going to say this again: We have several listings of non-identical uses of the same power (see telepathy). What is speculative is to suggest that Linderman or Ishi could never have the ability to take life away. We have absolutely no proof to back up such a claim. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:21, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
- Telepaths can do what illusionists do, but illusionists can't do what telepaths do. It doesn't work both ways. The same applies here. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:40, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
  - We can't really know if they would ever be able to take life but from what we currently know their abilities are different so let's just split the article and make a separate page for Jeremy's ability - Jenx222 | U / T / C 14:16, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
    - I agree too, let's have a different page for Jeremy --Darkfiremaster13 08:39, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
If we seperate Jeremy's power from Linderman and Ishi's power, then we'll have to do the same as Tracy's. We have no evidence that James Walker could turn himself into a puddle of water, and we are therefore forced to keep Tracy's ability as freezing, even though her ability obviously lets her do more than simply freeze things. Same with Jeremy, obviously he can do more than heal, but for now let's leave the power names as they are.--Piemanmoo 01:21, 3 November 2009 (EST)
- Well then if we're going by that, lets change Rachel's ability to Space-time manipulation, except she's never stopped or traveled through time. I think that is too speculative, just like saying Jeremy has the same ability as Linderman or Ishi and that Tracy has the same ability as James Walker. --Skullman1392 11:43, 3 November 2009 (EST)
  - I've supported splitting Tracy from freezing the moment we had confirmation it was her that formed out of water. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:17, 3 November 2009 (EST)
'Life and Death' seems like a misnomer. Only two of the healers in the series have been able to take life as well as give it. -D and D 123

Split the article/Keep Healing Touch

Let's summarize the arguments and where they seem to stand at the moment.

-Split the article: Jeremy has demonstrated the ability to heal and kill living things. Linderman and Ishi has demonstrated the ability to heal things. At this point in time it would be speculative to assume that both Linderman and Ishi could kill someone with their ability. All that we know is what we seen form them, and that is to heal living things. This would mean a split between the articles thus giving Jeremy's ability its own page. This follows under the naming convention rule the the name of the ability has the describe all aspects of the ability. If the name doesn't, even if it's canon, then there's a need for a new name. Since Jeremy's ability has demonstrated more than Linderman Ishi it's safe to assume it's a different ability. Refer to the case of Rachel's teleportation as oppose to Hiro's Space-Time manipulation.

-Keep the name Healing Touch: The name Healing Touch came from a canon source and was used to described Jeremy's ability which was believed to be the same as Linderman's and Ishi's at the time of Jeremy's discovery. Just because this name no longer describes Jeremy's ability it doesn't mean it wouldn't describe Linderman's and Ishi's ability. Both of which had to touch (even in the case of the flower) the living thing in order to heal it.

-Life and Death: I believe this is an argument that should be saved for when we agree that Jeremy has a separate ability. Once the page is created then we can set the debate to rename his ability. Otherwise we'll get lost and never take a step in any direction.

Any agreements or disagreements on this? --OutbackZack 05:57, 9 November 2009 (EST)

This rule: "naming convention rule the the name of the ability has the describe all aspects of the ability" has been chewed on with freezing: Tracy can do more than freeze stuff, yet we keep it because it is canon. Also, I believe the killing part to be simply a "dark side" of Jeremy's ability and not part of his innate ability at all. --Radicell 06:27, 9 November 2009 (EST)
- I do not agree with the Tracy-still-has-Freezing thing and it does not follow the naming convention specifically stated above and on the naming conventions page. Either way, Jeremy should be split and this page could be left as "Healing touch". --Skullman1392 08:13, 9 November 2009 (EST)
  - I've also supported splitting Tracy from freezing and giving her ability its own page since we had confirmation the water turning woman was Tracy. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:29, 9 November 2009 (EST)
    - To be honest, I agree with Radicell about it being a "dark side" of the ability. I would think it would be best to rename the ability "health touch" since it all users of the ability have been known to affect the health of people through touch. --mc_hammark 14:16, 9 November 2009 (EST)
      - I don't understand the "dark side" thing. Anyway, Tracy's freezing is another issue that should be probably be tackled later because "freezing" indeed doesn't cover all aspects of her ability.--Referos 14:39, 9 November 2009 (EST)
        How does this look? --Skullman1392 17:07, 9 November 2009 (EST)
        Looks great. Still a few things to fix, but overall an excellent start if we decide to split his ability. --mc_hammark 17:11, 9 November 2009 (EST)
        I like it. It seems to me that the company was simply wrong about Jeremy's ability, and it does need to be changed.--Ratclaws 17:14, 9 November 2009 (EST)
        Thank you. And feel free to tweak it if you think I missed something or spelled something wrong or stuff like that. --Skullman1392 17:26, 9 November 2009 (EST)
I understand the case with Tracy. However, can we please keep that separate from this? Otherwise will keep running around in circles and never resolve any of the issues. As for the "darkside" of Jeremy's ability; that's not a good enough argument. Every ability has a "darkside" depending on how it's used. However, Jeremy's ability is able to heal and kill. The killing was never an aspect of Linderman's and Ishi's ability. To assume that it was or ever could be is speculative at best.--OutbackZack 22:08, 9 November 2009 (EST)
- More proof that Jeremy didn't have this ability, is that Peter is getting tired because of it. Neither Linderman nor Ishi got tired when using the ability, and Ishi was a dying woman. That goes to show that it's not the same ability, the fact Peter said it drains him makes me believe this more similar to age transferal, though not exactly it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:03, 10 November 2009 (EST)
  - Peter's getting tired because his using the ability on so many people during the day. I don't think we've ever seen Linderman or Ishi use the ability on more than one person in the same episode. (Yes, Ishi used it on a bird then Hiro, and look it killed her!) --Powermimic 23:02, 10 November 2009 (EST)
    - Hey, that's a great theory! AltesUTC CH
      - Ishi was already in bad shape to begin with, and nothing suggests that using the ability tires her. She looked perfectly fine after healing Hiro, she died after passing the catalyst to him, something completely different. There are any number of reasons for why she was sick, her ability being the unlikeliest of them for me. Linderman also healed Heidi's paralyzis, a long time after the injury happened, and he didn't look remotely tired. In fact, he looked quite satisfied. And Linderman also used his powers a lot in the war, when he met Arthur Petrelli. Between a war and four or so victims Peter healed, Linderman definitely healed more people in less time than Peter did. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:31, 11 November 2009 (EST)
        Did you ever think that it may be, before the power wasn't important, but now that Peter has it they need some limits? It's the same ability. Jeremy just evolved it differently because of his negative emotions. Just like the writers have confirmed Arthur's and Peter's original ability was the same but Peter being empathic didn't steal abilities, but if his emotions ever turned, he could of stolen them too. --Powermimic 19:50, 11 November 2009 (EST)
        That argument is flaw with the fact that Peter and Arthur have been listed as having separate abilities. In any case, that supports the notion to split this ability page.--OutbackZack 22:45, 11 November 2009 (EST)
  - I agree with Empath. The fact that Peter is drained by this ability and Linderman was not, despite being shown to heal far more then Peter did, and the fact that Jeremy could kill with his ability, which (as far as we know, and we don't speculate) Linderman could not, seems to indicate they were different. I'd split the powers. Swm 06:02, 13 November 2009 (EST)
    - You'd also have to split freezing, ability supercharging, electric manipulation, telepathy and accelerated probability too. But I'm starting to think it would be completely OK if we wrote that some characters have two powers. Less pain in our asses. AltesUTC CH
      - I've always supported splitting freezing. However, I don't understand how splitting this would mean we have to split the others. I would have thrown accelerated probability there too, but we were told that Edward might have had his ability tampered with, which would explain his extra effecs. Other than that, all of the other abilities have reasonable effects which can be explained by what the ability does, it's a matter of actually trying to do something different with it, or do you want us to list Samuel as having an earth power and an ink power? Sparrow didn't control ink, so Samuel can't possibly have her ability. That's an out of proportion conclusion of this reasoning. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:35, 13 November 2009 (EST)
I would like to see other articles split too. However, they need to be focused on and debated about as a case by case. Grouping them would only cause a run around debate. Does any DISAGREE with splitting the article? If so, please explain as to why that hasn't already been countered. --OutbackZack 10:54, 14 November 2009 (EST)

Shouldn't Rapid Cell Regeneration....

Shouldn't rapid cell regeneration be under the see also page? They are incredibly similar abilities.--PJDEP 21:41, 15 November 2009 (EST)

Consensus

I know this isn't normally what consensuses are for, but since we've had so much debate on this page, I propose a consensus. Do we split Jeremy and Peter from the page and create a new page for them, or leave them here?

I wonder what name you're going to give Jeremy's power once it's split? Life and death? That's ridiculous, there's no canon name to give apart from "healing touch", which, too, describes Linderman and Ishi's ability. AltesUTC CH
- Healing touch would still apply here. Once and if the article splits then a name for the ability will be decided on. Even if we only use "Jeremy's ability" it is still more accurate than "healing touch". --OutbackZack 15:45, 18 November 2009 (EST)
  - Noah called it life and death in a episode. Skullman1392 made a good page for it. Everybody should take a look at that and see what they think (not saying the fact he made a page for it is a reason to switch, just take a look at it). It seems pretty clear that the company just got Jeremey's ability wrong when they first looked into it.--Ratclaws 16:51, 18 November 2009 (EST)
    - But "life and death" is just a description of Jeremy's ability's aspects, and a vague one. What can you tell about an ability by hearing its name? What can "life and death" mean? It would be as if we called Hiro's ability "space and time" or Rene's "memory and suppressing". AltesUTC CH
      - What about Activation and deactivation and Bliss and horror? But, it could be called Life force manipulation.--Ratclaws 09:17, 19 November 2009 (EST)
        Bliss and horror is a canon name, we couldn't think of anything better than A&D, and life force manipulation isn't good to use because no one knows for certain what life force is. Seriously, let's leave everything as it is. AltesUTC CH
        'Health Manipulation' or 'Health Transferral', perhaps? Health, however, implies an exclusion of injury healing(/causing?), which Jeremy and Peter demonstrated. Noah describes it as one point as (paraphrasing) 'the ability to control the flow of life', I believe. So, perhaps instead of 'life force', 'life flow manipulation'? Tricky. --EkimCF 15:09, 19 November 2009 (EST)
        
        And yet, Leona's power is all about "Life Force" and her ability page references it several times. --Skullman1392 01:41, 25 November 2009 (EST)
        Life force was mentioned in iStory, judging by Leona's ability's page. AltesUTC CH

Split Jeremy and Peter

--Skullman1392 00:42, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--daevon 01:09, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--Scorvi12 01:18, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--OutbackZack 03:57, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:37, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--Ratclaws 12:37, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--Jenx222 | U / T / C 13:19, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--mc_hammark 14:32, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--Fourletterfame 18:17, 18 November 2009 (EST)
--EkimCF 15:06, 19 November 2009 (EST)
--PJDEP 17:09, 21 November 2009 (EST)
--Swm 07:06, 22 November 2009 (EST)
--Darkfiremaster13 01:23, 25 November 2009 (EST)
--Peter 21:35, 25 November 2009 (EST)
--Referos 11:14, 26 November 2009 (EST)

Leave Jeremy and Peter

This is ridiculous, it was explicitly stated to be the same ability. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 02:05, 18 November 2009 (EST)
- No, it was stated to be "healing touch" when he could ONLY heal. This name could no longer apply to the ability since the ability has become something more that does healing and killing. Thus the name is outdated. That's like calling "ice" "water", because it started out as water. It just defies logic. --OutbackZack 03:57, 18 November 2009 (EST)
  - A brief list of powers that have evolved: ability supercharging (red lightning), accelerated probability (electric manipulation), enhanced synesthesia (sonic burst), induced radioactivity (electromagnetic pulse), intuitive aptitude (empathic aptitude), rapid cell regeneration (painlessness), shape shifting (extension to clothing), and telepathy (persuasion, precognition). Since when did an extension of a power make it an entirely separate one? The only reason freezing is up for debate is because the "making things cold/freeze" and "turning into water" aspects of the power are so radically different. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:59, 18 November 2009 (EST)
    - Jeremy is capable of doing the exact opposite of what his ability is supposed to do. If his ability is healing touch, he shouldn't be able to kill with it. It's a related extension, but it's a whole other extreme. Think of this as a string. Healing is one end of the string, and killing is the other. We can't call the entire string just by one end, we need a name that covers end to end. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:20, 18 November 2009 (EST)
      - This is the same baffling reasoning that left us with activation and deactivation as an ability name. Additionally, we have had abilities that incorporated its inverse before (poison emission, for one). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 00:58, 19 November 2009 (EST)
        Maya stops emitting the poison, it's different. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:14, 19 November 2009 (EST)
        Not exactly true. If you observe how her power works, she draws the poison back out. It's not simply stopping it (as those dying would continue dying), it is removing it (hence the sudden return to life of many of her victims). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 16:44, 19 November 2009 (EST)
        That would be a separate debate in itself. We need to focus on this. --OutbackZack 15:59, 25 November 2009 (EST)
Don't split anything. If a name is given for a ability in a canon source, that name should be used, regardless of whether it is the best description or not. AltesUTC CH
- This section states:
- When a possible name for an ability appears in a canon, near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications
- As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability. --OutbackZack 05:46, 18 November 2009 (EST)
~~Seeing as Peter copied Jeremy's ability there's no need to split them. Peter copied his ability which would mean they have exactly the same ability~~ - Jenx222 | U / T / C 13:04, 18 November 2009 (EST)
- I think they mean splitting both Jeremy and Peter from this page to a new one together. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:07, 18 November 2009 (EST)
  - Wow I should really read the whole section before making a comment, lol. I'm sure this was discussed before, I don't think there was a consensus - Jenx222 | U / T / C 13:14, 18 November 2009 (EST)
-- Same as above comments.Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs | 15:49, 18 November 2009 (EST)

What I find particularly interesting is that we have three against splitting it, all with fairly reasonable arguments, and fourteen who simply signed their names under splitting the article, with no argument at all. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:54, 25 November 2009 (EST)

All the reasons for splitting it have been discussed and stated multiple times, and also in refuting those who argue against it. --Skullman1392 22:03, 25 November 2009 (EST)
- On top of that we have a section from the naming abilities convention that backs up the proposal for the split. Any argument against it is just ignorance. --OutbackZack 03:13, 26 November 2009 (EST)
  - What we have is the show calling this "healing touch". Canon. Period. Any argument against that is just ignorance. Powers evolve. Claire can't feel pain. Tracy can turn into water. Sylar can take powers empathetically. But the power is still the same. Healing touch is healing touch. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 10:10, 26 November 2009 (EST)
    - Claire not feeling pain can easily be seen as an extension of regeneration. Tracy's ability should be discussed elsewhere, since it's also an issue. Intuitive aptitude is the ability to understand how things work, including emotions, which is a phenomenon called empathy. But all this is irrelevant. The naming conventions clearly say that, as a general rule, a name for an ability must encompass all aspect of said ability. However, this is a "general rule", meaning it can have exceptions (in fact, we have one: telescopic vision). Thus, the point is that the community should discuss whether or not "healing touch" is an appropriate name despite the fact it does not cover all aspects, instead of simply "it's canon, so all possible arguments against it is ignorance". Given that 1) Jeremy's ability was named by the Company when its "death aspect" was unknown, 2) claiming that Ishi and Linderman have the same ability as Jeremy is speculative and 3) "healing touch" does not cover all aspects of the ability, I think there's a very strong argument in favour of applying this general rule against "healing touch". Besides, "life and death" was also explicitly named by a canon source, so, again, the "it's canon, end of discussion" argument is not valid. The real point is then: is "healing touch" an appropriate name? No. Do we have a better alternative with the same canon level? Yes.--Referos 11:14, 26 November 2009 (EST)
    - You're right, RicardDesi, healing touch is healing touch. However, it's NOT touch of death! Again, you fail to site any reason why we should ignore the section of the naming abilities convention that back up our notion to split this article. --OutbackZack 12:14, 26 November 2009 (EST)
      - The very first rule for ability names: "If a name is given for a ability in a canon source, that name should be used, regardless of whether it is the best description or not." --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:20, 26 November 2009 (EST)
        Than a change in those might be a good call as well. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:51, 26 November 2009 (EST)
        So it's been made clear that the rules and standards contradict each other. Yes? Can we agree on that? If so, I say this problem should be solved first before we continue debating on this issues and other like issues. --OutbackZack 20:28, 26 November 2009 (EST)

You know, Jeremy's ability CAN be split. His ability was named "healing touch" in the show. His, not Linderman's or Ishi's, who don't have assignment trackers. We can list their abilities just as "healing", and since we already have disintegration and disintegration touch, it's no big deal. AltesUTC CH

Very true. However, it's been made clear in the show that Jeremy's ability evolved, and as far as I know we've never outright changed a name after it has naturally evolved (I say naturally because Tracy's ability has... well, unnaturally evolved thanks to a bullet from Danko). Take Matt's telepathy, for example. He has extended it to thought projection, persuasion, illusion, memory manipulation, and even puppet master to a degree, and we still just list it as "telepathy". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:44, 27 November 2009 (EST)
- Matt's telepathy makes perfect sense to still be called telepathy. Telepathy is the push and pull of thoughts, everything else he does is an application of the pull and push of thoughts, even the seeing the future thing used in fugitives. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:44, 27 November 2009 (EST)
  - Actually, in the traditional sense, telepathy is strictly hearing people's thoughts. Even in the world of Heroes, Matt had to be told that it was possible to push thoughts onto others (and even that it was possible to rip thoughts out of someone). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:12, 27 November 2009 (EST)
    - Maury told him that there was more to do, he never said something like "you can push instead of pull". Matt pushed thoughts on his own. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:24, 27 November 2009 (EST)
- And Tracy's ability did evolve naturally, she practiced her cold snap in her cell in Building 26. Ando can use his ability like electric manipulation - he discharged a taser. Edward can generate electricity, too. Another electric agent could fly. Knox could sense fear. All of them have displayed multiple aspects of one ability, but are listed as having the same powers as others who have displayed a single aspect. So if we split Jeremy, we'll have to do the same for many other characters. Do we want to? AltesUTC CH 11:38, 29 November 2009 (EST)
  - I've always supported splitting Tracy and Knox. Her ability is clearly more than freezing, and I remember a very good explanation for splitting Knox. His ability was listed as enhanced strength by his AT profile. His strength is enhanced by fear. Once she got control over the ability, Niki could smash things whenever she wanted, she had super strength all the time. The energy Ando uses to supercharge others is simply being used in a different way as far as I'm concerned. Edward was hinted to have had his ability tampered with by the company he worked for. Electromagnetic repulsion explains future agent's flight. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:51, 29 November 2009 (EST)

Ability and Ability: Just combine the two already

Life and Death or Healing = Vitakinesis, which can modify a person's health causing healing relief from affliction or servere damage to body organs. The fact that Peter actually was fatigue (like he ran a mile) indicates that energy input was involved in this healing process, particularly his. It seems that Jeremy either drained the life out of the people he killed or kinetically injured them internally. - Mphyire 2:15, 29 November 2009 (EST)

"-kinesis" means motion. There is no motion involved. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:09, 29 November 2009 (EST)
- There must be some motion involved, even if it's only at a cellular level. The parts of a cell or organ or whatever must come together to heal, or kill in Jeremy's case. It's not entirely accurate but the suffix "kinesis" seems to be used as an ending for any super power, whether appropriate or not. I have also heard the term "biokinesis" used.--PJDEP 14:22, 29 November 2009 (EST)
  - As far as I can tell, "-kinesis" on this wiki is exclusively used for powers that involve explicit motion (telekinesis, terrakinesis, pyrokinesis, etc.) --Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:28, 29 November 2009 (EST)
    - I'm continuing this discussion for the sake of the argument, as the name of this ability has a very small chance of being changed. The prefix "vita" means life (I think), and kinesis has been said to mean movement, so together it's the movement of life. Jeremy Greer moves life in and out of people by either healing or damaging them. True, it's figurative as opposed to literal but it could be considered appropriate. And as for pyrokinesis, user don't actually move fire. In my mind at least, moving fire would imply manipulating existing sources of fire. Pyrokinetics generate fire, and move it as a result of that I suppose, but those with electric manipulation generate and move electricity in a similar manner. However, we don't call that ability "electrokinesis" or something like that.--PJDEP 17:28, 29 November 2009 (EST)
- If this ability is renamed, it would have to be either "life and death" or "life control", which were explicitly named in the episodes. A fan-invented name like "vitakinesis" would be inappropriate given that names from canon sources exist.--Referos 21:07, 29 November 2009 (EST)

@@ Line 336: / Line 336: @@
 **** I'm continuing this discussion for the sake of the argument, as the name of this ability has a very small chance of being changed.  The prefix "vita" means life (I think), and kinesis has been said to mean movement, so together it's the movement of life.  Jeremy Greer ''moves'' life in and out of people by either healing or damaging them.  True, it's figurative as opposed to literal but it could be considered appropriate.  And as for pyrokinesis, user don't actually move fire.  In my mind at least, moving fire would imply manipulating existing sources of fire.  Pyrokinetics '''generate''' fire, and move it as a result of that I suppose, but those with electric manipulation generate and move electricity in a similar manner.  However, we don't call that ability "electrokinesis" or something like that.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] 17:28, 29 November 2009 (EST)
 ** If this ability is renamed, it would have to be either "life and death" or "life control", which were explicitly named in the episodes. A fan-invented name like "vitakinesis" would be inappropriate given that names from canon sources exist.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:07, 29 November 2009 (EST)
-For all those fellow comic nerds, vitakinesis refers to manipulation of one's state of health, which is a great way to categorize this ability.  However, we understand that Jeremy's ability is the same ability that Linderman and Ishi Nakamura possessed, although Noah explained the ability of healing power to evolve into a general life-manipulating power.  There's no reason to keep Jeremy's ability separate from Healing.  Charles Deveaux did not demonstrate the illusion aspect of telepathy, and Maury did not perform telepathic commands, but they still possess telepathy.  Jeremy has the ability originally introduced by Linderman, but ABILITIES EVOLVE!!  I say we combine the two articles again, but list this as Biokinesis or Vitakinesis, because whether the user has limited understanding or extensive knowledge of their ability and its limits, whether the user is healing or killing, it is always the control of one's life or health.  Vitakinesis sounds best, I think.--[[User:Cerebro|Cerebro]] 07:41, 25 December 2009 (EST)