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Talk:Clairvoyance
Name
I would prefer to rename this Clairvoyance, but will await further discussion. --Ted C 10:58, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- Clairvoyance is a better term, but doesnt that imply visions that happen in the past? Like Sanjog Iyler? If not, then yeah my vote goes with Clairvoyance --Piemanmoo 11:02, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- Clairvoyance is generally regarded as the ability to see things happening far away. Merriam-Webster defines it as "1- the power or faculty of discerning objects not present to the senses, 2- ability to perceive matters beyond the range of ordinary perception." Molly could apparently see brief glimpses of Matt that told her where he was. --Ted C 11:06, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- My understanding of clairvoyance (or "clear seeing") is that it includes knowledge beyond just knowing someone's location. However, when it comes to the powers, I tend to defer to Ted. Clairvoyance is not my favorite name, but it's not a bad description. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:08, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- Move made. "Clairvoyance" is just so much more familiar a term to most people that I think it's much more useful. --Ted C 11:12, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- My understanding of clairvoyance (or "clear seeing") is that it includes knowledge beyond just knowing someone's location. However, when it comes to the powers, I tend to defer to Ted. Clairvoyance is not my favorite name, but it's not a bad description. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:08, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- As a note, postcognition and precognition are powers which are time-specific (seeing the past and future respectively) but leave the question of range open. "Clarvoyance" implies seeing at a distance but leaves the question of time open. A postcog, for example, most usually sees events that happened earlier in their current location or to a particular object, but a clairvoyant postcog could also have visions about past events in other locations.--Hardvice (talk) 14:46, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- Clairvoyance is generally regarded as the ability to see things happening far away. Merriam-Webster defines it as "1- the power or faculty of discerning objects not present to the senses, 2- ability to perceive matters beyond the range of ordinary perception." Molly could apparently see brief glimpses of Matt that told her where he was. --Ted C 11:06, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
- I want to through into the ring that we change it to remote viewing, she saw matt from far away and was able to establish a lication, for better desription check the discussion on molly--Addude 00:45, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- My perception of clairvoyance was always an ability to know something was going on at that particular moment, and I'm not one who's well researched on paranormal, nor do I look these names up. Instead, I like to go with what most people know (the stuff seen on Jamaican psychic nightlines). Personally, clairvoyance shows what Molly did in Landslide: see a person at that particular moment and know what was happening with that individual, including their location. The Company used her as a tracking system, but that doesn't mean her ability is limited to knowing just the location of the person, but any number of things. The episode shows her thinking of Matt, and a) his current/most recent location, b) actually seeing him, and c) being able to know, on a map, where he is. Clairvoyance, to me, sustains the examples shown in the show.--Bob 02:56, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- I agree with Addude. The power Molly demonstrates is closer to remote viewing than to general "clairevoyance". Remote Viewing is the purported ability for a viewer to gather information on a remote target consisting of an object, place, or person, etc., that is hidden from the physical perception of the viewer and typically separated from the viewer at some distance.--Skener47 14:19, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- The dictionary definition of "clairvoyance" is almost the same: 1- the power or faculty of discerning objects not present to the senses, 2- the ability to perceive matters beyond the range of ordinary perception. Clairvoyance is a somewhat more familiar term. --Ted C 14:29, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- "Clairvoyance" has the added benefit of not sounding like Molly has the power to look at a channel changer. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:00, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- It's also too general. Claivoyance can take any form of extra-sensory perception (precognition, postcognition, psychometry, remote viewing, the ability to see astral/invisible beings/objects, etc). Whereas remote viewing is the specific ability that Molly uses. Granted, remote viewing is an aspect of clairvoyance, but enhanced strength and enhanced speed are both aspects of enhanced physiology. Even your definition of clairvoyance lacks the two things that Molly's power deals with; people and locations. --Skener47 15:10, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- The definition provided for "remote viewing" is essentially identical to the definition of "clairvoyance". I see no reason to make a change, especially since my understanding of the term exactly matches the dictionary definition. The "vague" definition you describe fits the more ambiguous term "psychic", not "clairvoyant". --Ted C 16:46, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- I agree with Addude and Skener --- Remote viewing is EXACTLY what Molly Can do, Clairvoyance is just seeing --- meaning you do not innately know where people all -- you just know what is happening in another area, Remote Viewing you think of someone and can know what they doing and know where they are located (which is what Molly Walker can do exactly) an example of clairvoynace is knowing and seeing that your husband was in a car accident --- remote viewing --- would need to think about your husband at the right moment to know he was in a car accident. they seem similar but in fact they are very nuanced. Guy 21:48, 20 May 2007 (EDT)
- "Remote viewing" is exactly what hit says, seeing things that are not present; the definitions is essentially identical to "clairvoyance", so there's no reason to change it. "Remove viewing" does not necessarily imply locating anything seen. The term for locating things psychically is "dowsing", which Molly does do, but having seen her power in use, we know she also has brief visions of people as well. Clairvoyance remains a widely understood term for what Molly does, and it's broad enough to encompass things like locating people as well as seeing them. --Ted C 10:08, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
- I agree with Addude and Skener --- Remote viewing is EXACTLY what Molly Can do, Clairvoyance is just seeing --- meaning you do not innately know where people all -- you just know what is happening in another area, Remote Viewing you think of someone and can know what they doing and know where they are located (which is what Molly Walker can do exactly) an example of clairvoynace is knowing and seeing that your husband was in a car accident --- remote viewing --- would need to think about your husband at the right moment to know he was in a car accident. they seem similar but in fact they are very nuanced. Guy 21:48, 20 May 2007 (EDT)
- The definition provided for "remote viewing" is essentially identical to the definition of "clairvoyance". I see no reason to make a change, especially since my understanding of the term exactly matches the dictionary definition. The "vague" definition you describe fits the more ambiguous term "psychic", not "clairvoyant". --Ted C 16:46, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- It's also too general. Claivoyance can take any form of extra-sensory perception (precognition, postcognition, psychometry, remote viewing, the ability to see astral/invisible beings/objects, etc). Whereas remote viewing is the specific ability that Molly uses. Granted, remote viewing is an aspect of clairvoyance, but enhanced strength and enhanced speed are both aspects of enhanced physiology. Even your definition of clairvoyance lacks the two things that Molly's power deals with; people and locations. --Skener47 15:10, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- "Clairvoyance" has the added benefit of not sounding like Molly has the power to look at a channel changer. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:00, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
- The dictionary definition of "clairvoyance" is almost the same: 1- the power or faculty of discerning objects not present to the senses, 2- the ability to perceive matters beyond the range of ordinary perception. Clairvoyance is a somewhat more familiar term. --Ted C 14:29, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
I just got your joke Ryan--- lol --- though funny, it does not constitute naming it a non-inclusive power.
- I'm not sure I ever said that a farcically mistaken meaning for "remote viewing" was a reason for naming the power "clairvoyance", only that it was a reason to not name it "remote viewing". I happen to agree with you that "clairvoyance" is not the best name, and for similar reasons. I think "clairvoyance" connotes a bit more than just what Molly can do. The best suggestion I've heard so far is "telelocation". But I still think "clairvoyance" is better than "remote viewing" by a long shot. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:49, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
- Agreed. Though, ultimately I've yet to hear any term that actually seems to describe specifically her power. All of these terms could just as aptly describe the kid who can locate any cheese sandwich in the world just by thinking about it (based on the same reasoning people are using). Yet we wouldn't say that Molly and the cheese sandwich-locating kid have the same power, no? I know everyone wants to come up with an eloquent, cool, sounding technical name, but right some of the suggestions seem to be at the expense of what the power does and doesn't do. She somehow knows (by whatever mechanism -- doesn't necessarily seem to be that she sees them) the current location of people. And based on the finale, Molly seems to even know which map her hand is hovering over at any time though her eyes are closed and focused on the object person. --Glue 02:10, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
- The parapsychological operational definitions are as follows:
- Agreed. Though, ultimately I've yet to hear any term that actually seems to describe specifically her power. All of these terms could just as aptly describe the kid who can locate any cheese sandwich in the world just by thinking about it (based on the same reasoning people are using). Yet we wouldn't say that Molly and the cheese sandwich-locating kid have the same power, no? I know everyone wants to come up with an eloquent, cool, sounding technical name, but right some of the suggestions seem to be at the expense of what the power does and doesn't do. She somehow knows (by whatever mechanism -- doesn't necessarily seem to be that she sees them) the current location of people. And based on the finale, Molly seems to even know which map her hand is hovering over at any time though her eyes are closed and focused on the object person. --Glue 02:10, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
Remote viewing: Remote viewing is the alleged psychic ability to perceive places, persons, and actions that are not within the range of the senses. Remote viewing might well be called psychic dowsing. Instead of a twig or other device, one uses psychic power alone to dowse the entire galaxy, if need be, for whatever one wants: oil, mountains on Jupiter, a lost child, a buried body, a hostage site thousands of miles away, inside the Pentagon or the Kremlin, etc.
Clairvoyance: Clairvoyance is an alleged psychic ability to see things beyond the range of the power of vision. Clairvoyance is usually associated with precognition or retrocognition. The faculty of seeing into the future is called "second sight" if it is not induced by scrying, drugs, trance, or other artificial means.
Definitions taken from [1]. Notice Ted C's assertion of Molly's power being "psychic dowsing" actually appears in the remote viewing definition. --Skener47 09:45, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
- All that said, I'm not inclined to change it at this time. If we find another character competing for the power name, then I'd say we need to make the switch, but until then, Clairvoyance just sounds better. --Ted C 09:49, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
- Wow ^that is a very power hungry statement I say we make it democratic, I would agree with Ryan that Telelocation (though essentially a created power) is better than clairvoyance -- remote viewing is my personal favorite so
Telelocation 1 Clairvoyance 1 Remote Viewing 0
so continue Guy 18:01, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
- You know my vote's for remote viewing. --Skener47 6:50, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
- In the past, we've gone towards a "guide" if you would for naming certain abilities. For Claire, "rapid cellular regeneration" was used. For Ted, "induced radioactivity" was also called upon. These names came from the the Genesis files. The reasoning behind this was a canon source for the name of an ability. Clairvoyance is listed in this file. It describes aspects of this ability. Clairvoyance allows for someone to a) see the surroundings of an event as its occurring just from thought, and b) locate the individual being thought about with relative ease (as with the case of locating Sylar in Kirby Plaza when Mohinder warns Molly that he's coming). Remote viewing seems to just allow for viewing, not much else. Remote location seems to just allow for location, but not much else. Clairvoyance allows for a knowledge of some event outside of their normal awareness just through thought. Location and viewing is encompassed by clairvoyance and it's a terminology already used within canon sources. So to agree with Ted, it's quite the nomenclature. --Bob 08:23, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
- That's a great point, Bob. I'm still not a fan of the name, but one of the reasons I haven't lobbied harder against it is because it's a name Chandra used. In fact, of all our power names, Ted's power (um, Ted S, not Ted C) and Claire's power have some of the worst names on this site. But changing it would be to ignore canon sources. Unless Mohinder says something to Molly like, "Molly, I really like how you're able to telelocate people" or "I need to heal the remote locator!", I think we're stuck with "clairvoyance," for better or for worse. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:48, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
- Unfortunately, the clairvoyance that appears in the Genesis Files is just a word on a page. It is used in conjunction with an unnamed female in 1978, not Molly Walker, nor is is ever witnessed in the show. We shouldn't assume that the two are the same since the definitions are different. For all we know, the clairvoyance the Files are referring to could be the classic "second sight" or precognition. Perhaps, Isaac's ability should be renamed to clairvoyance instead of having it listed as precognition? Bob's description of how "clairvoyance" is used to locate people (seeing people's surroundings and interpretting where they are) is actually the same as what he says about remote viewing (seeing surroundings). An example of remote viewing: The CIA and the U.S. Army thought enough of remote viewing to spend millions of taxpayers' dollars on research in a program referred to as "Stargate." The program involved using psychics for such operations as trying to locate Gaddafi of Libya (so our Air Force could drop bombs on him) and the locating of a missing airplane in Africa. Notice the similarity to Molly's power. --Skener47 09:09, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
- "Induced radioactivity" is just a word on a page too. Isaac's power isn't clairvoyance. Clairvoyance has never been used to describe the ability to see the future. --Heroe!(talk) (contribs) 10:38, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
- Unfortunately, the clairvoyance that appears in the Genesis Files is just a word on a page. It is used in conjunction with an unnamed female in 1978, not Molly Walker, nor is is ever witnessed in the show. We shouldn't assume that the two are the same since the definitions are different. For all we know, the clairvoyance the Files are referring to could be the classic "second sight" or precognition. Perhaps, Isaac's ability should be renamed to clairvoyance instead of having it listed as precognition? Bob's description of how "clairvoyance" is used to locate people (seeing people's surroundings and interpretting where they are) is actually the same as what he says about remote viewing (seeing surroundings). An example of remote viewing: The CIA and the U.S. Army thought enough of remote viewing to spend millions of taxpayers' dollars on research in a program referred to as "Stargate." The program involved using psychics for such operations as trying to locate Gaddafi of Libya (so our Air Force could drop bombs on him) and the locating of a missing airplane in Africa. Notice the similarity to Molly's power. --Skener47 09:09, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
- That's a great point, Bob. I'm still not a fan of the name, but one of the reasons I haven't lobbied harder against it is because it's a name Chandra used. In fact, of all our power names, Ted's power (um, Ted S, not Ted C) and Claire's power have some of the worst names on this site. But changing it would be to ignore canon sources. Unless Mohinder says something to Molly like, "Molly, I really like how you're able to telelocate people" or "I need to heal the remote locator!", I think we're stuck with "clairvoyance," for better or for worse. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:48, 24 May 2007 (EDT)