Talk:Loyalty vs. treachery

To me, this page seems too close to secrets and deception to merit its own article. I'm not sure there's enough unique examples of loyalty and treachery that won't already fit on other pages. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:14, 16 February 2007 (EST)

• "Treachery", as we're using it here, does not necessarily equal deception. Simone disobeys Nathan's request by showing Peter the missing painting, but I wouldn't say she deceives him in doing so ... she's just loyal to Peter instead. Eden goes rogue, but she's not particularly sneaky about it. Sure, the Haitian's loyalty is brought into question because of his deception, but even that disloyalty is separate from the deception itself--if he's not loyal to Mr. Bennet, where does his loyalty lie?
  
  Treachery aside, there are even more example of loyalty to consider. Hiro sticks with Ando when Kaito's men catch him. Mohinder's mother puts her husband's needs above her own. I'd say if it's done properly, this is quite a separate theme: who are people loyal to? When faced with a choice, with whom do they side? In Eden's story alone, I'd say her primary quest is figuring out who to side with.--Hardvice (talk) 09:41, 16 February 2007 (EST)
  • I see what you're saying. I'm not opposed to the page, I just don't think it's necessary. That, or I'm lazy. :) — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:31, 16 February 2007 (EST)

AFD

I figured this article has been a stub for a long time without any input for it, and as stated earlier, it resembles Secrets and deception enough to where any examples of loyalty vs treachery can be put there. Treachery seems to be the main focus of the article since people's loyalty shift a lot in the show (I think it was Beeman or Arkus who stated that it's intentionally done).--Bob 03:55, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

• I don't have any problem merging the two--sounds like a good idea to me. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:36, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
• If people's loyalties shift a lot in the show, shouldn't that be part of the focus of this article? Again, I think Secrets and Deceptions fits the one example we have; I don't think it necessarily fits all examples of shifting loyalties. There's nothing deceitful about, say, the tension between Hiro's loyalty to his family and his loyalty to his quest in Distractions. I just have the feeling that if we merge the two, a lot of examples of shifting or conflicting loyalties are going to be ignored because they don't fit very well with Secrets and Deceptions.--Hardvice (talk) 13:15, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
  • Point taken ... but if we only have one example right now, is it really a recurring theme? — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:37, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
    • Again, there are a ton of examples that just haven't been added. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's one of the most prevalent themes. For some characters (Eden, Mr. Bennet, the Haitian), the question of where their loyalties lie is pretty much their entire storyline, while for others (Nathan, Claire, and Hiro), it's a big part of their storyline. This is exactly the case where we're voting to delete a stub that could have a ton of content, which seems silly, instead of arguing over an article that would have, even if expanded, little content (and most of it redundant), like the story arcs.--Hardvice (talk) 16:02, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
      • Great point about discussing deletion. I'm right there with you about the story arcs -- I can't believe there's been that much discussion about it, and nobody's tried to write any content to support keeping it. As for L&T, I personally don't see this as a recurring theme, but if you do, more power to you. :) — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:13, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
        • You honestly don't see the question of who or what the characters choose to be loyal to as a recurring theme? Wow. I don't know what to say. I really think that's probably the biggest theme for many of the characters. Perhaps we should change the name ... people seem to be getting hung up on the "treachery" part.--Hardvice (talk) 16:16, 9 April 2007 (EDT)