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Talk:Judaism

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Significance

  • I may be jumping the gun here like usual, but is this a significant item within the realm of Heroes? If not we'd just add a link to wikipedia's article on it where necessary. (Admin 16:43, 10 February 2007 (EST))
    • As it stands, no, it's not really relevant. I'd like to add some content reflecting Hana's Jewish background affects her, as well as a gallery of all the Stars of David that appear. Give me a bit to work on it, and we can make a decision then... — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:10, 10 February 2007 (EST)
      • Okay, I added some content. Actually, after having written it, I think maybe the article should be renamed "Judaism". ... If it's still deemed insignificant, let's delete it. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:42, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Formatting

We need some better organization on this page. I don't like the nonstandard headings "General Occurrences" or "Hana Gitelman". We should probably just make it into an "About" section with GN and ep headings. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:38, 21 April 2007 (EDT)


Judas

Should Judas Iscariot be considered part of an article on Judaism? While Judas and Jesus were Hebrew, the role the former plays in religion is more rooted in Christianity than Judaism. -- Paronine 13:05, 15 July 2007

  • I don't care that it's on this page--the argument could be made that it belongs or that it doesn't belong. We don't have a page about Christianity (nor do I think we necessarily need one), but it is mentioned on our page about faith and religion, right here. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:16, 15 July 2007 (EDT)
  • In fact they are ONLY rooted in Christianity. Discussions of Jesus and Judas no more belong on a page about Judaism then they do on a page about Islam or Hinduism. Judaism doesn't believe that the Jesus that Christians believe in ever existed, or any of the stories told in the Gospels. The New Testament does not appear in the Bible, that is, it doesn't appear in the Jewish Bible. Baradrae 20:30, 15 July 2007
    • If that's true that the story of Judas is not part of Judaism then, yes, it does not belong on this page. I think the fact that we mention Peter's quote on faith and religion as an example of religious influences on the show is sufficient. (Admin 13:57, 15 July 2007 (EDT))
      • In truth, there are different sects of Judaism, and it depends on who you're talking to whether or not they accept the story. Also, Judas and Jesus were Jewish. The argument could be made either way. Personally, I don't care where it's included, as long as it's mentioned is somewhere on the site, which it is. If someone wants it off, that's fine with me. If others express an interest in keeping it on, that's also acceptable. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:44, 15 July 2007 (EDT)
        • It probably should be removed. Just remember, always leave an edit summary, especially when removing an entire sub section. -Lөvөl 02:06, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
          • I don't see a problem with it. Whether he has a role in Judaism or not, he was still Jewish himself, so it doesn't seem too out of place.--Leshia 02:14, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
            • But according to Judaism, Jesus and Judas were not Jewish - they are imaginary characters. And there are NO sects of Judaism that accept that Jesus or Judas were real. By definition, if you accept the stories in the New Testament as real you are no longer Jewish, you are a Christian. - Baradrae 10:00, 16 July 2007
              • While true for most major sects, it it not necessarily true for all sects, in fact I have talked with Jews (Christian (yes there are Christian Jews) and non Christian) who believe Christ existed, they may not believe he was divine though. By the way Hana is an imaginary character. But I think this would be better on faith and religion, as it is not an example of Judaism and someone could take offense. -Lөvөl 03:36, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
                • I'm tending to agree that it doesn't need to be on this page--not because it's potentially offensive, but because the reference really isn't about Judaism. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 04:23, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
              • Accepting the New Testament as real is not the definition of Judaism and does not make one Christian. Again, I don't care one way or the other (though my gut says to take out the reference simply because it's about Judas who was Jewish and is not directly about Judaism anymore than a reference to Barbra Streisand or Ben Stiller is about Judaism), but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. After all... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 03:15, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
              • To say that all Jews believe that is incorrect. Every individual is entitled to their own belief, and I know plenty of Reform Jews who believe Jesus was a prophet. Regardless, it seems to be a subject that encompasses more than one faith, so it should be on the religion and faith article. Personally, I think this particular page has some insight specific to a faith. Since there aren't that many Christian-specific references in the show, the Judas reference should remain on the faith and religion page until more Christian references should arise, in which case it should be on that page.--Bob 05:00, 16 July 2007 (EDT)

Okay. I don't mean to sound condescending or anything, but I have to explain something to you all here. 1) Reform Judaism isn't actually a form of Judaism. 2) So called "Christian" Jews are definitely not a form of Judaism. In order to call your religion Jewish, there are 13 principles of faith laid down by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides">Maimonides</a>. These are not optional. These are not open for discussion. If you don't believe in these, you are NOT Jewish. You can call yourself whatever you like, but you are not Jewish. Which means that you CANNOT accept the New Testament as real and still be Jewish. You are violating the prohibition of idolatry (which, by the way, is one of the three things Jews are supposed to give their life for before they violate). And as for Jesus' existence, I have no problem with that. There was a person named Jesus who live about 160 b.c.e. who is referred to in the Talmud. However, this is obviously not the Jesus referred to in the New Testament. The religious issues arise when you claim that the Jesus referred to in the New Testament existed as he is told about there. And as I keep on repeating, you CANNOT believe in both Jesus and Judaism.

  • I know quite a few Jews who would disagree with you. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 09:45, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
    • As I said, they may call themselves Jews, but they aren't. You cannot be two religions at once. And Judaism does not believe in Jesus.
      • To say someone isn't a Jew is irrelevant. The point is that there are many Americans and people worldwide that have these beliefs. I'm Catholic, but I don't go to mass regularly. I'm still Catholic in the eyes of the Church because I was baptized. To say someone isn't Jewish is somewhat offensive if you were telling that to someone. I knew plenty of Jewish people who went to temple regularly and were raised properly, but eat pork and think Jesus was a prophet. They received awards from their synagogue. To say they CANNOT be Jews is looking from a very restricted point of view. Regardless, this isn't a theological website, it's a fan site for a television show that features two Jewish characters (Greg Grunberg says Matt is Jewish). It's an article to help explain some references to the belief. Continuing this argument doesn't help with the discussion.--Bob 02:53, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
        • You are correct. But this still doesn't justify putting talk about Jesus and Judas on a page about Judaism. And just because there are people of Jewish ancestry out there who believe that Jesus was a prophet, that does not make Jesus any part of Judaism. Baradrae