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Talk:Saving Charlie/summary
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Deletion discussion
I think this will also apply to the other for-pay novels (I'm talking about any for-pay book novels--electronic, hardbound, or paperback) that are upcoming. I think the question is whether we should include chapter-by-chapter summaries of these for-pay novels on Heroes Wiki. I am really torn as I think it may really help the newcomers to the Heroes "Universe" (if you will) right now to have these summaries (and perhaps the writers of the new episodes too), but I am also concerned to make sure we have permissions from NBC (I value the Heroes Wiki relationship with NBC), the author(s) of said work(s), and the publishing companies, if need be, as I see this as a gray area in terms of whether it is or not fair use, and in that respect I think it may be on a case by case basis whether we include them. I'm asking this now as I think it's an important discussion to be having, and I think input from other wiki users, especially Admin could be beneficial.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:12, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- I also pay for Heroes episodes since I don't have a TV and have to pay for the episodes individually. I'm sure I'm not alone with this. But I don't see an issue with the summary -- this summary, although long, is definitely not in depth. I don't think it's ever more than one paragraph to summary an entire chapter, which sometimes lasts 7 or 8 pages. But ultimately, since we are talking about a possible permission issue, or our relationship with NBC, you're right, we should probably pose this to Admin. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:56, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- If you have access to Hulu, the episodes are there too for a short period of time... I already left a message on Admin's talk page about this, since he posted online earlier today.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:06, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- Regarding the depth for this article, I think it important to note that this is still a stub, and that the plan appears to be to give chapter by chapter summaries for 55 chapters of the Saving Charlie novel.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:38, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- I think that I could essentially post word for word the book on Facebook or a blog or this site even and then people are still reading it without having bought the book. So I think that what we are doing with summaries is not illegal by any means. I agree with RGS that the summaries are basically the same as the summary for the episodes. It does not give the full effect that the book does. But yet you can still get the gist of it. Without having paid for the episodes. ~~IHH—Talk 17:47, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- I don't know about the legalities here, so I'll let Admin handle that. But I can't see a summary being a rights issue. There are hundreds of wikis out there that summarize for-pay books and for-pay movies. Wiki summaries are not just for "free" televised content. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:00, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- I think that I could essentially post word for word the book on Facebook or a blog or this site even and then people are still reading it without having bought the book. So I think that what we are doing with summaries is not illegal by any means. I agree with RGS that the summaries are basically the same as the summary for the episodes. It does not give the full effect that the book does. But yet you can still get the gist of it. Without having paid for the episodes. ~~IHH—Talk 17:47, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- Regarding the depth for this article, I think it important to note that this is still a stub, and that the plan appears to be to give chapter by chapter summaries for 55 chapters of the Saving Charlie novel.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:38, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- If you have access to Hulu, the episodes are there too for a short period of time... I already left a message on Admin's talk page about this, since he posted online earlier today.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:06, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- I've thought about this quite a bit and after doing research I don't believe these summaries violate copyright. As long as they continue to not take any text directly from the material and instead summarize the story itself I believe it's fine. The most material that is directly taken would be names of characters which, I believe, are owned by NBC and we're basically covered there on a few grounds already. Most copyright issues come into play when you're copying verbatim from another work. At that point the use of that content undergoes a few legal tests to determine whether it's infringing. Since these are simply summaries my understanding is those tests don't even come into play. So while none of us are lawyers (to my knowledge), I believe our goal has always been to comply with all laws to the best of our understanding which at the very least indicates that we're not willfully breaking any of them. If any of our content causes a legal issue in the future for any reason we'll promptly make changes as our copyright owners are members of the Heroes universe and we've always been here out of respect and appreciation for the wonderful work they've done. (Admin (talk) 18:17, 22 October 2015 (EDT))
- Thanks for the explanation. That sounds reasonable. And Hardvice would have been proud of your legal knowledge. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2015 (EDT)
- Thanks, Admin, for checking and responding on this. Admin, if it matters, there are proper names (such as characters' names) exclusive to the book that may end up in the finished article. RyanGibsonStewart, I knew Wiki summaries are not just for "free" televised content--but it is this novel being for-pay content that emphasized it (to me at least) as being commercial use. Non-charged/non-commercial use content can be and is often copyrighted as well, as Level pointed out. Also, I think HeroesWiki is different from the other wikis due to its relationship with NBC.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- If this summary is deemed a violation of copyright, then I imagine that every episode, graphic novel, istory, etc. summary would also be a violation of fair use. And if NBC asked us to take something down, we would comply. But they haven't. In fact, they have seen our content here, including our summaries, and have applauded us for it. I don't know why there would be a difference or a question now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 06:22, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- Well, for one thing, the chapter previews that existed before for this novel on NBC.com have been removed for a while along with the novel's page at NBC.com. I just updated the links, adding one without the chapter previews that I found at the NBC Universal Store, and the order page at Penguin Random House (the publisher). Another, it's my thought that different properties can have different terms of use/copyright restrictions, and since this is a text-only property published outside of NBC, we need to keep in mind that there could be different terms of use for it.--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:31, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- I think we all have that in mind. But unless we know something definite, or unless we are asked to take down our summaries for some reason by NBC, there's no reason to nominate the page or any of the summaries for deletion. You're just speculating that there might be different terms of use. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:39, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- Just as you might be speculating the terms of use allow for such chapter by chapter summaries--I'd rather be sure if that were possible, or at least to allow the wiki time to provide their thoughts on the matter. There could be other reasons to not do chapter by chapter summaries, such as the maturity nature of the novel.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:35, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- After reading the discussion here and on Ryan's talk page, I have little to add other than I agree with him and Admin on all points. As for maturity nature, there is nothing in the novel more adult than anything else on the show to I fail to see why that would be an issue. The chapter summaries are extremely useful and it would be a great shame to delete them based on speculation as to their legality, which this wiki (or any other wiki I am part of which contains book summaries) has never had a problem with before. -Kon (talk) 17:48, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- Just as you might be speculating the terms of use allow for such chapter by chapter summaries--I'd rather be sure if that were possible, or at least to allow the wiki time to provide their thoughts on the matter. There could be other reasons to not do chapter by chapter summaries, such as the maturity nature of the novel.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:35, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- I think we all have that in mind. But unless we know something definite, or unless we are asked to take down our summaries for some reason by NBC, there's no reason to nominate the page or any of the summaries for deletion. You're just speculating that there might be different terms of use. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:39, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- Well, for one thing, the chapter previews that existed before for this novel on NBC.com have been removed for a while along with the novel's page at NBC.com. I just updated the links, adding one without the chapter previews that I found at the NBC Universal Store, and the order page at Penguin Random House (the publisher). Another, it's my thought that different properties can have different terms of use/copyright restrictions, and since this is a text-only property published outside of NBC, we need to keep in mind that there could be different terms of use for it.--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:31, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- If this summary is deemed a violation of copyright, then I imagine that every episode, graphic novel, istory, etc. summary would also be a violation of fair use. And if NBC asked us to take something down, we would comply. But they haven't. In fact, they have seen our content here, including our summaries, and have applauded us for it. I don't know why there would be a difference or a question now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 06:22, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- Thanks, Admin, for checking and responding on this. Admin, if it matters, there are proper names (such as characters' names) exclusive to the book that may end up in the finished article. RyanGibsonStewart, I knew Wiki summaries are not just for "free" televised content--but it is this novel being for-pay content that emphasized it (to me at least) as being commercial use. Non-charged/non-commercial use content can be and is often copyrighted as well, as Level pointed out. Also, I think HeroesWiki is different from the other wikis due to its relationship with NBC.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2015 (EDT)
- Thanks for the explanation. That sounds reasonable. And Hardvice would have been proud of your legal knowledge. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2015 (EDT)