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Talk:The Sanderses' home
Where did 9734 show what episode?
~ ~ ~ ~ Red = 20:57, 31 January 2007 (EST)
- I don't remember which episode (probably Genesis). IIRC, it was painted on the curb in front of the house. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:01, 31 January 2007 (EST)
Plural Possessives
I know there are other discussions on this but I can't find them. Because of the recent edit and revert and because Sanderses' sounds kind of weird to me, I did a search on this again. I found a site that explains that when a last name ends in a hard "z" sound, you usually don't add an "s" or the "-es" and simply add an apostrophe: "the Chambers' new baby." Here and Here. Is this correct? -Lөvөl 15:22, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
- It's wrong anyway. They're the Sanders', OR Sanderses. Since their last name is Sanders, Sanderses' would be Sand-er-ses-ses. --Riddler 15:52, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
- "The Chambers' new baby" is correct if the last name is simply "Chamber". If the last name is "Chambers", then the plural would be "the baby that belongs to the Chamberses". The plural possessive would be "the Chamberses' baby". The title of this page is read "The Sand-ers-es home" -- an apostrophe does not add any extra sounds. RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:10, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
- The apostrophe adds the extra "es" sound o_O --Riddler 00:10, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
- No, the apostrophe itself is not pronounced. The possessive of "dogs" (dogs') is pronounced "dogs", not "dogses" (although it's frequently mispronounced as such). In fact, it's pronounced the same as the possessive of "dog" (dog's). And an apostrophe is never used to make a plural; Sanders' would be the possessive of a group of people named "Sander". Since these people are named "Sanders" (ending in a sibilant), the plural is "Sanderses". Since it's plural and ends in "s", it takes only an apostrophe to become possessive, and it's Sanderses', and is pronounced the same as "Sanderses".--Hardvice (talk) 00:47, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
- You are wrong, I'm sorry. To make a proper noun that ends in -s possessive you add an apostrophe. So the the "Chambers' baby" would mean a baby of the family Chambers, NOT the plural of Chamber, the possessive of a singular noun that does not end in s would be the "Chamber's baby". Since their name is a proper noun that ends in -s you simply add an apostrophe. Adding -es AND an apostrophe is redundant and incorrect. Using Sanderses would mean the home owned by each individual Sanders family member, but unfortunately Sanderses is incorrect. That's why "keeping up with the Joneses" is a funny catchphrase, because it is not possessive and means that you are trying to keep up with the individuals of the Jones' family. I don't know where you are getting that plural nouns or ones that end in -s never receive an apostrophe, that is not correct. Plural nouns or proper ones that end in -s always, always receive an apostrophe to make them possessive. [1] Example: The Wilsons' house (The Wilsons live in the house.) Their last name (Wilsons) is already a plural noun, it doesn't need -es to make it plural. Same with Sanders, it is already plural! It doesn't need -es to make it more plural before you add the apostrophe showing possession. [2]
You add -es to words like dress, not to proper plural nouns.
Plural nouns don't need to be made plural, they already are!!! [3]
Just to give another example: You wouldn't say, "Colonel Sanderses' secret recipe", you would say "Colonel Sanders' secret recipe".
Bottom-line, the rule here is If a singular proper noun ends in s, add an apostrophe. http://grammar.uoregon.edu/case/possnouns.html
- This article refers to the home of the family named Sanders. It's plural, not singular. (Admin 19:44, 14 October 2007 (EDT))
- Wrong. "Sanders" is their name. It is a singular proper noun. Adding the apostrophe makes it plural and possessive identifying the home as the one in which the Sanders family lives. Leave it incorrect if you want, but it looks silly when it is a very basic grammar issue. Just because something incorrect is repeated doesn't make it correct. If everyone started typing "irregardless" I'm sure you wouldn't let it stand.
- Yes, but Colonel Sanders is singular. Colonel Sanders's (or Colonel Sanders', depending on the style manual you're using) recipe is correct. If the recipe belonged to his family, it would be the Sanderses' recipe. One Sanders, two Sanderses. One Jones, two Joneses. One plus, two pluses. See here or here or here or here or here or here or pretty much anywhere. Sanders is not already plural--it's a singular noun that ends in "s". Bob Smith is one of the Smiths and lives in the Smiths' home. Niki Sanders is one of the Sanderses and lives in the Sanderses' home. If her name was "Niki Sander", you would be correct. It's not. Her name, in the singular, ends in an "s".
- Wrong. "Sanders" is their name. It is a singular proper noun. Adding the apostrophe makes it plural and possessive identifying the home as the one in which the Sanders family lives. Leave it incorrect if you want, but it looks silly when it is a very basic grammar issue. Just because something incorrect is repeated doesn't make it correct. If everyone started typing "irregardless" I'm sure you wouldn't let it stand.
- There's two separate questions here. The first--does a singular noun which ends in s take an apostrophe or an apostrophe and an s to become possessive--is a question of style and varies from style manual to style manual (i.e. is it D.L. Hawkins' car or D.L. Hawkins's car?) The second is does a family name which ends in s need to be made plural when referring to more than one family member? That's a question of grammar, and the answer is always "yes". "Sanders" is either singular (referring to a single person with the surname "Sanders") or plural (referring to more than one person with the surname "Sander"). The "Sanderses" refers to more than one member of the Sanders family. Now, their house could be "The Sanders home" (descriptive, not possessive--it's where the Sanders family live--compare "The Bennet home", not "The Bennets' home") or "the Sanderses' home" (possessive--more than one Sanders possesses the home), but not "the Sanders' home" (possessive--a home owned by more than one Sander)--Hardvice (talk) 19:59, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
- Sanders is their last name, but the family is made up of multiple members. I would call Tony Romo a Dallas Cowboy, but he is a member of the Dallas Cowboys. Similarly, Micah is a Sanders, but the group of them is the Sanderses. When calling them the Sanders' family, then you are saying the family is possessed by a Sanders, whereas the Sanderses is not necessarily a family, but multiple people with the last name Sanders. So, you could say "the Sanders' family home", meaning it is the family home, whereas the Sanderses' home is a home possessed by multiple people with Sanders as their last name.--Bob 20:01, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
- Well now you are just being silly. In reality, when speaking of a home, especially in this sense, you are not describing the home in terms of being owned by each individual family member. Even in this sense, "Sanders' house" still means the home of the Sanders family which includes each of the Sanderses. If they were the "Smiths" you wouldn't say the "Smithses'" house. It is redundant to add -es and have an apostrophe. You are basically combining both plural forms. Let me put it this way, you wouldn't say "Niki and Micah Sanderses' house." you would say "Niki and Micah Sanders' house." If you are wanting to be this technical then it should totally be renamed the "Sanderses/Hawkins" house since D.L. lived there too.
- You are totally missing the point. If they were the ""Smiths" it would be the "Smiths' home"--but "Smiths" is the plural of "Smith". Just because a proper noun ends in "s" doesn't mean you don't have to make it plural when referring to more than one. Two girls named Jess are "the two Jesses", NOT "the two Jess". Two swords, each called "the Vampire's Kiss" are "the two Vampire's Kisses", not "the two Vampire's Kiss". Two castles called "Caer Ross" are "the two Caer Rosses", not "the two Caer Ross". And two people with the surname Sanders are "the two Sanderses", not "the two Sanders". Sanderses' is exactly like Smiths'. Both are possessive plurals.--Hardvice (talk) 20:16, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
- And saying "Niki and Micah Sanders' house" is like saying "Claire and Noah Bennet's house", not "Claire and Noah Bennets' house".--Hardvice (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
- Not that anything about Google results imply gramatical correctness (instead just frequency of appearance), if you search for Sanderses' you'll find a pattern. Sanderses is used as a subject/object when referring to multiple people in the Sanders family. Sanderses' is used as a possessive when referring to an object that belongs to the family. (Admin 20:21, 14 October 2007 (EDT))
- Well now you are just being silly. In reality, when speaking of a home, especially in this sense, you are not describing the home in terms of being owned by each individual family member. Even in this sense, "Sanders' house" still means the home of the Sanders family which includes each of the Sanderses. If they were the "Smiths" you wouldn't say the "Smithses'" house. It is redundant to add -es and have an apostrophe. You are basically combining both plural forms. Let me put it this way, you wouldn't say "Niki and Micah Sanderses' house." you would say "Niki and Micah Sanders' house." If you are wanting to be this technical then it should totally be renamed the "Sanderses/Hawkins" house since D.L. lived there too.
- Sanders is their last name, but the family is made up of multiple members. I would call Tony Romo a Dallas Cowboy, but he is a member of the Dallas Cowboys. Similarly, Micah is a Sanders, but the group of them is the Sanderses. When calling them the Sanders' family, then you are saying the family is possessed by a Sanders, whereas the Sanderses is not necessarily a family, but multiple people with the last name Sanders. So, you could say "the Sanders' family home", meaning it is the family home, whereas the Sanderses' home is a home possessed by multiple people with Sanders as their last name.--Bob 20:01, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
You would NEVER say Bennetts' because their name does not end in an -s. You basically do not understand what to do with proper nouns that end in -s. The name Sanders is not plural, it is a singular proper noun. You had it right in the first line up there, "Smiths" would be the "Smiths' house" in the same manner "Sanders" is the "Sanders' house", you are not referring to more than one member of the family, youa re referring to the family house as it is occupied/owned by the family. So the house where the Sanders' live is the Sanders' house. My point is Sanderses with an apostrophe is redundant and wrong, it conveys that it is a house that belong to a family named Sanderses not a family named Sanders. If the family's name was Sanderses than Sanderses with an apostrophe would be correct, but their name is Sanders so to most people the correct form is Sanders'. I see you are going to leave it as is because you think you are correct, but I assure you that it is not.
- I assure you that the Chicago manual of Style, the AP Manual of Style, and Strunk & White all say that you always refer to more than one member of a family, or to their communal possessions, using the plural form of their surname. The plural form of the singular "Sanders" is "Sanderses". The possessive of that plural is Sanderses'. It's exactly the same as referring to more than one Petrelli as the Petrellis, and their home as the Petrellis' home. I'm sorry you can't be persuaded--if I had a functional scanner, I'd scan my style manuals for you. They even show examples exactly like this, using surnames which end in s in the singular. Fortunately, it's not my job to persuade you that you;re wrong.--Hardvice (talk) 20:35, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
- I know for a fact that Strunk & White says: "Form the possessive singular of nouns by adding 's." What I am trying to convey is that when you talk of a home, you do not speak in terms of it belonging to each individual member of the family. The family as a whole, every member, is represented by the proper noun Sanders's, which is what Sanders' represents. Now, you can argue about whether it should be Sanders' or Sanders's, but they are both the same thing. The idea that is being conveyed is that it is the home of the entire family, the family as a whole. The family known as the Sanders live in this home, the Sanders's or Sanders' home. Some of this is gray or debatable territory, but I'm very confident that the form of Sanderses' is at worst incorrect and at least very awkward and could be better conveyed. Sanderses' like that, with the apostrophe, is redundant. Just as you say up there you would nat say "the Petrellis'" because that is redundant, you already make Petrelli plural with the -s. Just like you are already making Sanders plural if you add -es, therefore adding an apostrophe is redundant. This is what that says, The Sanderses's house.