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Re: Keep it the same; "bliss and horror" is incomplete
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{{power names|2|eos=Text from ''[[It Takes a Village, Part 1]]'' explicitly names this ability}}
==Name Voting==
{| border="2" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="4" class="wikitable"
OK, let's try to keep this neat and clean. Only vote once, and follow the example. Add a new title if you don't see one you would vote for.
|-
! Archives
! Archived Topics
|-
| align=center | [[Talk:Bliss and horror/Archive 1|June 2007-July 2007]] ||<small>{{ArchiveLinks|Talk:Bliss and horror/Archive 1}}</small>
|}
==Power Names==
Here's the way I think about power names (not that it's an official position or anything--I just want to clarify why I feel the way I do in any given case).
* '''Is it named in an episode or graphic novel?'''--If so, we're pretty much stuck with that. "Induced radioactivity" and "rapid cell regeneration" are both mouthfuls that could probably have better names, but alas, that's what they're called. Now, it's possible these could change, but it would pretty much take a new canon example to override them (Mohinder to Claire: "My father was wrong! Your cells don't regenerate -- you steal cells from extradimensional copies of yourself!")
* '''Is it named in secondary sources?'''--A similar case can be made for calling Matt's ability "telepathy". It's been called that in interviews and promotional materials, as well as in his Heroes 360 dossier, so we're stuck with that, too, even though he can't project thoughts.
* '''Is there a common name for this power already?'''--Big examples of this would be "pyrokinesis" and "telekinesis". I wouldn't be a fan of either of these if they weren't already so well-established in comic books and parapsychology.


Once those two options are exhausted (and only then), it's time to consider making up a name. Here's how I look at it:
Note that the title that gets the most votes will not necessarily be the one chosen. The name will still have to be non-speculative about how the power operates and follow other standards and rules of the wiki. The admins will make determinations about whether a title is appropriate before implementing a change.
* '''Is the name speculative?'''--It's important to consider if the name is speculating about either the effects or the mechanics of the power. For example, we could call Nathan's power "self-propulsion" (which is much fancier than "flight", and therefore probably "better" to some minds), but we don't actually know ''how'' he flies, only ''that'' he flies. For example, Magneto was originally said to be able to fly by "severing magnetic lines of force" (whatever that means), effectively canceling gravity. He didn't propel himself. And Guardian was able to disengage himself from Earth's gravitational pull, allowing him to stay stationary while the Earth rotated under him, effectively letting him fly west (and only west) very fast. It's unlikely Nathan flies in either of these fashions, but the point is that observable flight doesn't necessarily mean propulsion.
* '''Is the name broad enough?'''--Does it cover ''everything'' we've seen the character do?
* '''Is the name too broad?'''--Does it imply an ability to do things we haven't seen?
* '''Is the name straight-forward?'''--I, personally, will always prefer a plain-English name to a neologism--mostly because most such words end up being either over- or under-inclusive, and people frequently abuse the hell out of Latin and Greek roots and affixes, using them to mean things they simply do not mean. This leads to a confusing power name. As a rule, if somebody needs to grab a dictionary--and particularly a foreign language dictionary--to understand why a power has a given name, it's a bad name for the power.
* The very last thing I consider is '''how the name sounds'''. The coolest-sounding name is no good if it's unnecessarily technical, speculative, or over- or under-broad.


With that in mind, my approach to this power is thus: 1) we have a name for it from the graphic novel; 2) even though a lot of people dislike that name, we don't have a compelling canon reason to override it; 3) there isn't another widely-accepted name for this ability; 4) the suggestions for alternatives are either speculative, overbroad, underinclusive, or unnecessarily technical.
'''Please''' do not use this section for discussion; keep that in the sections below.


I think it's important that we work through this now because chances are better than not that, with the emphasis on other cultures next season (to say nothing of a story set centuries in the past), we'll be getting lots more canon power names that might not sound fancy or formal enough--and that, as far as I'm concerned, is tough. We're just going to have to deal with "the drunken monkey's kiss" or "stench of a thousand corpses" or whatever they throw at us and avoid the impulse to come up with things like "putrification manipulation" or "biodegradokinesis" and the like. Canon wins, plain and simple.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 16:32, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
'''As of Wednesday, June 27, voting on this topic may be considered closed.''' The admins are discussing the results and whether or not the popular titles a sufficiently non-speculative based on what we know.
* Sounds like the beginning to a standard, which is just what I was hoping to see come about. I found your mentioning of different cultures to be interesting. It occurs to me that with these special abilities having a global scope and existing throughout time that the name of the power itself reflects the culture in which it was exhibited. Our original powers originated from Chandra's research who, as a scientist, applied scientific names to each of the powers. Since his research was the basis for our original naming, it stuck as a general convention. As we see how different cultures interpret these powers, I can see a certain value in preserving the cultural interpretation of that power when naming it here instead of requiring everything to conform to what was essentially Chandra's method of naming the powers. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 16:46, 2 July 2007 (EDT))
*Thank you for breaking that down, Hardvice. I think you outlined nicely a general guideline for power naming conventions, which has been informally adhered to in the past, but may need to be a stricter guideline in the near future. I believe that you touched on the heart of why this page is so long--"bliss and horror" is a good name given to us, but it's odd as hell. (Incidentally, I'm enjoying how much discussion this one GN power has generated--it's fantastic that it's brought up some bigger issues, too.) You're right, we as a community really need to come to a consensus not so much on the name of this power (although we definitely do) but on the big picture of naming powers altogether. Your breakdown seems logical and in keeping with the philosophy of our site, though I'd personally rank speculation above being too broad or too narrow, but that's a minor point. :) And, for the record, I'm really looking forward to "the drunken monkey's kiss". -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:53, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
** Good point re: the order of the questions. I didn't actually intend for it to be hierarchical, but since I mention that I consider the "coolness" of the name last, it probably should be (and I've edited my original comment to reflect this).--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 17:08, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
*** To bad this is a wiki and not a church....we could just form a 'name the power committee' and let the populace embrace or detest the naming-committee's choice. Perhaps eventually, with a guideset for naming similar to what you've started above, that might be a workable approach. <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 07/2/2007 18:14 (EST)</small>
**** Thanks, Hardvice. I've repeatedly ask for those guidelines and had been waiting for that for a while. But there's one more thing, and that's that some of the answers can have a degree of personal bias, and that's okay--but Admin needs to state clearly who gets the final say on the name: if the fans (not-the-admin), then we either change it to "emotion manipulation" or hold a new vote; if it's by admin majority, there are still a few left who haven't chipped in; and if it's The Admin himself, then we should change to "psychoactivity" and put this one to sleep for now.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 18:27, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
**** PS: I am no way agreeing that canon provides the best name, but I thought I mention another possibility. Thru the magic of redirects, can we have both names? Ie. Could we list on the page both the canon and fan-chosen name when they differ?--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 18:52, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
***** Canon doesn't provide the "best" name, it provides the name. Canon power names are actually the only part of this that is already an established rule. I mean, if they say it's called "induced radioactivity", then it's called "induced radioactivity". We can't change that any more than we could decide Mr. Bennet's first name is really "Abraham" instead of "Noah". Accurately reporting canon content is our first function.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 19:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
***** I don't see any reason why we couldn't have a redirect from a reasonable description to a canonical name. I'm not opposed to that, especially if other sites refer to the name that particular way. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 19:56, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
****** Not talking about other sites. If Admin isn't willing to come to a decision as to who has the final say, we could name the power page "Guillame's power" with redirects from "emotion manipulation" and "Bliss and horror". On the page itself, we would list both names (fan and canon) in the description and infobox. The advantage of this is that it avoid arguments as to which should be the page's name and it still has some teeth (as Hardvice so delicately put it).--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 22:11, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
*******I'm not a fan of needlessly calling it "Guillame's power" just to avoid people getting upset at the name. I don't like the name "rapid cell regeneration", but I wouldn't think about changing the page to "Claire's power". For better or worse, we have a name that works. I personally don't mind an "emotional manipulation" redirect (or whatever), but I don't think the power should be called "Guillame's power". -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 22:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
******** Are you okay with calling it "Emotion manipulation" and redirecting from "Bliss and horror"? If you are, then maybe we've made progress...--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 22:58, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
*********No. "Bliss and horror" was given in a canon source. "Emotional manipulation" was not. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 23:01, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
********** Then we're still left with Admin determining what has final say (the users' vote, the admin vote or his personal opinion).--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 23:05, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
*********** In cases like this where after considerable effort there is no community consensus then it comes down to administrative consensus. If there is no administrative consensus, then I make the decision. We've heard from Ryan and Hardvice. I would like to see other administrators discuss this as well to see if we already have administrative consensus. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 00:20, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
************ Thanks for commenting Admin, but for the record, "emotion manipulation" won the users vote over "keep it the same" by almost a 2:1 margin. That doesn't qualify as consensus? This is totally about admin appeal (not community consensus), imho. Assuming the administrators vote proceeds, Ted has also already piped in today. We're mainly waiting on [[User:Baldbobbo|Bob]]. Orne's been gone since March.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 01:37, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
************* Voting is only a mechanism to help determine whether consensus already exists, it does not determine consensus. Wikipedia has some info on [[wikipedia:consensus decision-making|consensus decision-making]] to help clarify. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 01:42, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
************** There's different models listed in that help. But if we're going by the rough consensus model, the help says "the question of consensus is left to the judgment of the working group chair"--that's why I asked.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 01:56, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
************* Sorry for the delay. Work's been killing me (just got off less than an hour ago). I put earlier in the talk page that I wanted to stay with "bliss and horror" because it's not speculative and clearly states what the ability is. I still hold that true since the other proposed names do not fulfill this. So my apologies for not chiming in earlier, but I've just been really bogged down with work and trying to rest.--[[User:Baldbobbo|Bob]] 03:33, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
************* As admins, we enforce the standards of the wiki. Community consensus can't override a standard -- if everybody agreed to speculate that Hiro is Peter's dad, or everybody agreed that the recently-published Season Two ending wasn't a spoiler, it wouldn't matter. In this case, the administrators are in consensus that "bliss and horror" is the canon name given (and that's really the question--not "is 'bliss and horror' the best name?", but "is 'bliss and horror' meant to be a name for the power?", since we always use canon names when given) and that the other suggestions are speculative.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 04:01, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
************** It is questionable whether "bliss and horror" is meant to be a power name. The admin vote is 3-2, unless Ted and Admin changed their minds and I don't know about it; and it's Admin that determines whether that defines admintrative consensus.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 09:20, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
*************** For what it's worth, I'm going to say "leave it be", at least for now. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 09:39, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
*************** I say leave it be as well. I am ok with it as the name for the ability. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 09:44, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
* Wow. That's one hell of a read. I was totally persuaded by the "It's canon" argument. I didn't realize so much thought really went into this. "Bliss and Horror" FTW!!! --[[User:MishBaker|Mish]] 00:29, 14 November 2007 (EST)
**Either a lot of thought, or a really boring summer. :) -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 00:32, 14 November 2007 (EST)
*I vote for Emotion Manipulation. --[[User:Snow Leapord|Snow Leapord]] 07:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)


== emotional manipulation ==
*Bliss and horror (keep current title)
** -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:09, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 14:47, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Ice Vision|Ice Vision]] 20:18, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Baldbobbo|Bob]] 01:51, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Tisco|Tisco]] 13:29, 14 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:AverageMan|AverageMan]] 14:33, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
*Pain and pleasure induction
** (vote)
*Sensation control
** --{{User:addude/sig}} 11:45, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 23:53, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Renenarciso|Renenarciso]] 17:55, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Aero Zeppelin|Aero Zeppelin]] 18:58, 18 June 2007 (EDT)
*Sensation manipulation
** --[[User:GuitarHiro|GuitarHiro]] 14:10, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:59, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
*Emotion(al) Manipulation
** --[[User:Ehsteve23|Ehsteve23]] 11:16, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** <small>-- [[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 06/14/2007 13:33 (EST)</small>
** --[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 12:02, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:DocM|DocM]] 12:09, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 13:17, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Jason Garrick|Jason Garrick]] 14:59, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 15:18, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:SacValleyDweller]] 23:18 19 June 2007 (PDT)
** --[[User:Bettyfizzw|Bettyfizzw]] 15:02, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Fcphantom|Fcphantom]] 18:36, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
** --[[User:Jaybenad|Jaybenad]] 15:45, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
*Guillame's power
** (vote)
*Hallucination Projection
** --[[User:Totallycharged|Guy]] 20:56, 22 June 2007 (EDT)


bliss and horror is not a poper name for his power can we change this name to emotional manipulation or empathic projection , since i watched an episode of x-men i saw the similarties between what he can do with annalee, either empathic projection or emotional manilulation would be a good name for his power--[[User:Zoga78|Zoga78]] 19:17, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
==Name Discussion (Part 1)==
* Check out the archive discussion [[Talk:Bliss and horror/Archive_1|here]] as emotional manipulation has already been mentioned and it was decided to go with "Bliss and horror" since that's how the power was referenced in the story.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 19:30, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
The name used is the one given a few times in ''[[It Takes a Village, Part 1]]''. It can be changed if/when we find out more details about the power. As with any new power page, I tried to keep all speculation off, of course, and stick to what can be observed. If there's any speculation, it can be removed and/or discussed here. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:16, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
*Um, if the description is "the ability to manipulate moods of others", why didn't you go for mood manipulation? --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 21:24, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
** Why are you ressurecting dead duscusions? --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 01:29, 19 April 2008 (EDT)
***Maybe because they didn't know. Probably why. [[User:Jason Garrick|Jason Garrick]] 18:13, 30 April 2008 (EDT)
**I guess I was just throwing something in there. Like I said, feel free to change something that needs to be changed. I'll go ahead and fix it now. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:29, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
**I wish I could change it into something that sounds a bit more scientific than something like "Bliss and Horror" if the subject ever comes up again or you guys would like to take a look into voting again, I would try emotion projection or inducement. However if people feel that calling Sound Manipulation "Super Screaming" instead, then by all means keep it this way. --[[User:DontEatRawHagis|DontEatRawHagis]] 00:19, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
***Lets just wait for the end of the hatians story maybe they will give us the correct name if nor I would like to suggest emotion control for a name--{{User:addude/sig}} 22:37, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
*** Actually, I kind of like that it's not a scientific-sounding name. The ''[[It Takes a Village]]'' arc was very much ''not'' a scientific-based story. In fact, it was quite religious and spiritually based. I like that the name of the power reflects that. It reflects the essence of [[Guillame]], in my opinion. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 00:39, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
****I vote we put a more realistic name for the power until more details become available. It's obvious that "Bliss and Horror" won't be the permanent name for it, so we might as well ditch it now. Emotional Manipulation is a better placeholder until more details become available.--[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 23:21, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
*****I don't know if it's obvious that the name won't stay. Hopefully the next two GNs will enlighten us a little more. However, if they don't, then we're stuck with what we know, which is not much. In any case, I'm not sure it's emotions that Guillame manipulates. Possible, but not sure. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 23:35, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
******Personally, I highly doubt that he manipulates emotions. Nausea and vomiting are purely physical sensations. One of the Tonton Macoutes also seems to be grimacing in pain. If he manipulated emotions and used that ability to "attack" someone, I would expect the victim to become depressed or (more useful in that situation) extremely fearful. He seems to be able to make the villagers euphoric, but he might be doing that without manipulating the emotions directly. For instance, he might be able to make people relaxed and/or energetic. [[User:Conduit|Conduit]] 00:36, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
*******Is it at all posible that he has the same power as his son, mental manipulation. I mean, it makes sense. He would project mentally the feelings of "bliss and horror" into others minds. And with the guy that puked his guts, thats another example I have. Project the feeling of nausea into his mind and eventually he will feel that way. Anyone get what I'm saying?--[[User:Dylankidwell|The Empath]] 20:56, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
******** The similarities in their powers seem to be that they both somehow affect the mind. However, the Haitian blocks the powers of others and erases memories. Guillame hasn't shown that he can do that--instead he makes people feel great or feel like crap. The Haitian has never shown that he can do that. Well, at least not directly. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:10, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
********* "Mind manipulation", perhaps? It's a different name than "mental manipulation". The mind would then relate to all the emotions, feelings, etc. people have, rather than their memories and what they can do. --[[User:DocM|DocM]] 08:43, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
**********Yes, but "mind manipulation" sure sounds a lot like "mental manipulation" (and really means just about the same thing), and I wouldn't want to name the power anything that would be potentially confusing. Besides, are we sure it's the people's ''minds'' he's manipulating? It's a pretty good bet, but we're still just not quite sure yet. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 08:48, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
***********I'd take anything over "Bliss and Horror" right now. It's destroying my online OCD. What about "Health Manipulation"? It's mainly mental health, but health nonetheless. <br>-- [[User:GuitarHiro|GuitarHiro]] 22:49, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
* Well so far Emotion Manipulation is winning....--{{User:Heroe/sig}} 19:58, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

==Name Discussion (Part 2)==
My impression is that he affects the pain and pleasure centers of the brain. I'm not sure what you'd call that, though. "Pain/Pleasure Induction" violates my aesthetic rules. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 16:21, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
* I'd like to see that rule book. :) Yeah, I think you're on the right track, Ted. I have a feeling it'll be something like "mood manipulation" when we're done with all four GNs. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:52, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
** Thing is, I don't think the power affects mood, at least not directly. I don't think he's making people feel happy or sad: I think he's making them feel physically sick ("horror") or like they're having a continouous orgasm ("bliss"). Moods swings will probably follow, but they're indirect effects --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 17:59, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
***Good point, and exactly the reason we probably shouldn't come up with any name right now--you know, that whole avoiding speculation thing. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 18:58, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
****Thanks, Ted, for semi-agreeing with me. As I noted before and hinted below, I agree that it's too early to change the name.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 19:08, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
*****How about "Pain &Pleasure Induction"? I don't see anything wrong with a three-word power. --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 23:57, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

==Name Discussion (Part 3)==
* I still think it could be hormone manipulation, but I'm starting to think he'd have to both cause a lady to grow a mustache and help a mom to breast feed in order to convince the majority of that. LOL.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 17:12, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
**Not that hormone manipulation couldn't have the effects we've seen, but I doubt we'll ever get '''that''' exact an explanation of just how he causes pain or pleasure. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 09:38, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
*** I kind of like "bliss and horror" but if you want something more like the others, I was thinking "[[wikipedia:Psychoactive drug|perception alteration]]" but that is probably to speculative, how about "sensation manipulation" -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 11:49, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
**** I would tend more toward "sensation control". "Mental manipulation" has alliteration going for it, but "sensation manipulation" just gets long and tedious to say without any redeeming poetic features. Naming a power in a way that both looks good on paper (or screen) and sounds good when said aloud can be surprisingly difficult. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:19, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
**** "sensation manipulation" Rimes ;), "sensation control" could work. -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 12:30, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
***** If we don't get any better proof of it being a hormone-related power, you can consider my vote the third for "sensation control".--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 13:48, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
****** My vote is for Mental Manipulation, but I don't read the online comics.--[[User:Dylankidwell|The Empath]] 14:01, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
*******The problem with using [[Mental manipulation]] is that it's already taken: we've assigned that name to [[The Haitian|The Haitian's]] power (although I might argue that "mental interference" describes what he does better). --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 15:46, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
******** I like "sensation control". It seems to fit with what we know about the power right now. --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 19:50, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
********* Just for the record, it is quite possible that he is projecting hallucinations, and not controlling emotions or sensations, though it is also quite possible of the latter. This is why I feel it should remain as named.[[User:Totallycharged|Guy]] 23:46, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

==Cmon guys, admit it==
*I think I got the problem. No one likes the name bliss and horror, that's why everyone is complaining. If everyone just feels a hatred then why don't we discuss a list of possible names. We did it with Molly. [[User:Jason Garrick|Jason Garrick]] 16:28, 9 June 2007 (EDT)
**Actually I don't mind the name. I don't think it's the best, but I think it's a fine description and I like the poetry of the name. Sure, we could discuss the name all we want, but in the end, anything we come up with will be speculative. Hopefully we'll learn more about the power in the next two issues, and then we can find a name that won't be assuming anything. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 17:26, 9 June 2007 (EDT)
***That's a good point. I remember reading the ordeal about "Being who can see Molly who is worse than the Boogeyman and can possibly mirror clairvoyance" article. I just hope the next comic has Guillame explaining to his son or his people what it is he can do. One can only hope! -- [[User:GuitarHiro|GuitarHiro]] 03:25, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
** I'm very much in favor of the current name. I dont like it, but anything else is too speculative right now and if we never get more insight as to his power then I'd opt to just leave it as is. As far as I'm concerned, if we want a better name for the power then the writers are interviewed often and they should be asked directly as to the nature of his power so that we can give it an accurate name. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 12:54, 11 June 2007 (EDT))
***...speaking of which, I haven't heard back from Staz yet, but there's no surprises there. It doesn't look like CBR will be any more Q&A sessions until season two starts. Maybe the next GN will be done by one of the Kotzebue brothers or Micah, who seem to be bit more responsive. :) -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:00, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
**** I agree with Admin. I absolutely despise the name but everything else is speculative (unlike molly [still bittered faced over clairvoyance]) and for right now it is the best description (right now) I do not like perception or sensation control (manipulation whatever) because he has to this point only produced ecstasy or horror. I don't even think it is pain and pleasure(might be, but just as well could not be) when I first read it I thought it was about a projection or hallucination of sort, much like drugs that cause both blissful and horrifying hallucinations. And for the guy who thinks it is hormone control, substance p, dopamine, and serotonin are the causes for pain and pleasure (which I am not agreeing that pain and pleasure are synonymous with bliss and horror). Though many other neurotransmitters exist in hormone form, dopamine is the only one out of these three that has a counterpart. I think it should remain bliss and horror until more (if any) is revealed about the causes and what the bliss and horror involve whether it is hallucinations or pain and pleasure. If it is hallucination, I would move toward hallucination projection.[[User:Totallycharged|Guy]] 23:40, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
**** Cast my vote. "Sensation Control" is the best option IMO. It's generic enough to not imply too much, and I don't see why it's a problem that he has only produced ecstasy or horror. Many of the other powers listed here have limitations that are not hinted by their names ("Mental Manipulation" and "Clairvoyance" being two of them). I also don't think it's particularly relevant if Guillame is causing sensations through hormones, mind tricks, illusions or whatever. The end result is that targets of the power feel great or crappy. And I have a feeling we'll not learn the specifics of it in future stories. "Bliss and Horror" shouldn't be used because it sticks out like a sore thumb. All the other powers have scientific-sounding names, while Bliss and Horror sounds like the poetic description of an ancient spell. Just doesn't sound like Heroes. [[User:Renenarciso|Renenarciso]] 18:05, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
*****That's exactly how I feel, Rene. --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 19:30, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
*****I'm going to have to disagree. Must we always complicate things? Not every name has to be "scientific" or "professional". It may not sound like ''Heroes'', but it's in the ''Heroes'' graphic novel, so it's ''Heroes''. Seriously, Guillame states, "I am bliss and I am horror..." The Haitian says, "Bliss and horror. My father's tools. My father's gift." I don't know how simple they have to make it. They said the name telekinesis a few times, and it was simple. Bliss and horror is simple, and we should leave it at that.--[[User:Ice Vision|Ice Vision]] 22:21, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
******Great points, Ice Vision. The name ''is'' different from some of our other powers, but it's wrong to say it doesn't sound like ''Heroes''--the name is ''from'' the ''Heroes'' world. It doesn't sound like Heroes Wiki, and that's fine with me....I should also point out that "clairvoyance" comes from the show (see [[Genesis Files]]), and "mental manipulation" is the only way we could come up with a name to describe one power that seemingly has two aspects to it. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 22:41, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
******The blunt of the story is couched in scientific terms, and most powers here have been named after the Sureshes' and the Company's research. If the story branches into different times and different cultures, as I'm sure it will in the second session, we can have many more power names in different styles. A metahuman in ancient Japan may have "The Five Ancient Gods Vitality" when he is really just invulnerable, while a street thief in Ireland may have "My Mojo", when all he has is Enhanced Charisma. Will we use the names these characters give their abilities themselves? Or the names a Western scientist would give them if he were researching them? I don't think it's encyclopedic or ellegant to use mystical or slang terms for the powers' names, when most of the powers are viewed through a scientific paradigm. Many powers have never been named (or at least I don't think they were), and in those cases we used names that sounded like the ones that WERE named. We still don't know if Niki Sanders is using a variant of telekinesis, or if her body produces some super-adrenalin-like substance, or if there is something about her tissues that is different from a normal human's and Niki didn't use it because she was holding herself back and never even tried punching somebody. Whatever the exact mechanism is, we just named it Enhanced Strength, because that is the effect. Why bother if Guillame is producing hormones or images or emotions, when the effect is simply that he makes people feel stuff (Sensation Control)? Well, in any case, it seems like Sensation Control is winning.[[User:Renenarciso|Renenarciso]] 23:02, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
****** Just my final words on it. May I also point out that "Bliss and Horror" is as "vague" as the other names, beyond sounding unscientific? I can see the bliss part, okay okay, but the horror bit? One guy seemed to be having a headache and the other was vomiting. They weren't cowering in fear or muttering with their eyes shut, as you'd expect of someone feeling abject horror. "Horror" can mean so many things that as a power name it's effectively meaningless. Someone could name Sylar's power theft as a "Horror", or even Ted Sprague's powers, or even aspects of Candice Willmer's abilities. They're all as "Horror" as what Guillame does. [[User:Renenarciso|Renenarciso]] 23:11, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
*******Carts before horses. "Horror" is not a word we chose to describe the power, it's a word used more than once in the novels that shed light on what the guys were feeling. We wouldn't call Sylar's or Ted's or anyone else's powers "horror" since that's not how they refer to the power....As for the idea that we would use names for powers that the characters give, well, yes, we would. Provided it's not a nickname like "My Mojo", if a character somehow says the name of his power (both Niki and D.L. have called D.L.'s power "phasing, for instance), yes, we would most likely use it. Thank goodness we are not an encyclopedic site, and are not bound by using scientific terms to describe supernatural powers. We are a fan site, and we use the canon of the show as much as we can. I don't like the name of Claire's power at all, but I didn't name it--Chandra did. Where it becomes necessary to deviate from canon (for the purposes of naming an article, for instance), we try to use as little speculation as possible. I haven't heard a name for Guillame's power that does that. And though "bliss and horror" is not perfect (though it's growing on me), it's what's given to us. We don't have a charter to sound scientific--our goal is to document the show as accurately as possible. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 23:43, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

== Voting deadline ==

Are the admins going to set a deadline for this vote or the one for Molly's villain? Also, I [[Talk:Current events#Add Voting Events.3F|suggested]] adding voting to current events, but no one has replied...--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 12:26, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
*I don't think a deadline is necessary for this article. As it is, it shouldn't be changed. We have two more graphic novels that will presumably shed more light on Guillame's power. If that's the case, then we'll go forward with a name change, most likely based on the above voting. If they flash forward and never talk about Guillame's power again, then we should probably keep "bliss and horror" since everything else is a little too speculative. The discussion can continue, of course, but I don't think a deadline is necessary--it all kind of depends on what's revealed to us. As for a link on current events, I don't think it's a bad idea, but I'm not really that gung ho about it. I didn't respond because I'm somewhat ambivalent. I think a better place to have a link for [[:Category:pages to be renamed|pages to be renamed]] would be on [[Template:Todo]] or [[Template:Todo2]]. But that's just me. If you want a link on [[current events]], there's nothing stopping you. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 12:39, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
** Thanks for the input, but ''Pages to be renamed'' are not the same to me as ''Pages with active name voting''. Some pages may have the <nowiki>{{rename}}</nowiki> tag but have not begun voting, so I've added the links to current events.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 14:00, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
*I think it's safe to say we won't make a decision on the name until after [[It Takes a Village, Part 4]], at least. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:56, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

== There is an established name. ==

I feel that this should be the name, really because it's concise and rather simple.

'''Nimpathy''':

"A sharing of sensations; a ''community of feeling''. One is able to transmit ''actual'' sensations to any group of people." I mean, is that not what Guillame does? (That is an actual definition, btw.)
* That sounds made up. Where did you find it? --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 17:17, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
*It's not in any dictionary I've ever found and google returns only seven results. I believe somebody on [http://www.ghosts.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2637 Obiwan's UFO-Free Message Board] made it up. To the best of my knowledge, there is no Greek suffix ''nim'', either. It looks like somebody was trying to be clever. I highly doubt the authenticity of the "actual definition". Besides, even if it were an actual word, I'm still not sure "community of feeling" describes what Guillame did to the Tonton Macoutes. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 17:26, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

== The power in pt 4 ==

In pt 4 of ''It takes a Village'', the Haitian names the power ''bio-chemical aberrance''.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 09:39, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
*I'm not sure he's "naming" the power. I think he's referring to powers in general, not to his father's specific power. He says he knows nothing of genetics first; in that context, it's difficult to say whether he's being specific or general. "Abberance" just means a deviation, so it's even more difficult to tell. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 09:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** He also says that his father's power has returned, and that he experienced shame instead of bliss or horror. It's very clear, imho, that the old power name is incomplete and that we should use ''bio-chemical aberrance'' instead.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 10:16, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
*** I don't think ''shame'' is something induced by Guillaume's power. It's just a natural feeling that Haitian has when his father tells him that he needs to be destroyed. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 15:08, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
**** Agree. I don't think Guillame tried to actively make his son feel ashamed. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 17:55, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** I also don't believe he was talking about Guillame's power specifically, but instead collectively referring to special abilities as "biochemical aberrances". "Biochemical aberrance" doesn't accurately describe Guillame's specific ability, but it does describe the cause of his ability. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 10:28, 19 June 2007 (EDT))
** In context, ''biochemical aberrance'' '''could''' describe Guillaume's power, but it could also describe a mental illness that affected Guillaume's behavior enough to drive him to attack his son, or it could refer to the foundation of superhuman powers in general. We unfortunately never got anything very clear from this graphic novel. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 11:16, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

== The Guillame series is over, and the name is not clearly resolved ==
The power 'Bliss and horror' now also contains a new emotion in Part 4, -- '''shame'''.
Therefore, I would like to suggest being consistent with our other named powers.
* See above. I don't think the Haitian's shame is something induced by Guillaume's power; it's just something he feels because of the situation: his father regarding him as a "poison" and a "cancer". Because his power slips, his father is able to incapacitate, but also keep him from suffering. Still, I can see how it might be interpreted the other way. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 15:12, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
*xxx-kinesis would be my most desirable choice, but we haven't come up with any xxx terms that best fit this power and fit with the kinesis suffix.
** I simply do not understand why everyone loves "-kinesis" names for powers that have nothing to do with movement. It's like having the ability to talk to plants and calling it "plant garbage can" -- "-kinesis" is derived from an actual word with an actual meaning, and can't simply be appended to any available root word to give "the power to (do thing x)". Sometimes a "-kinesis" word will make sense (pyrokinesis -- the ability to move fire; cryokinesis -- the ability to move cold), but usually it won't.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 15:42, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
*xxx-Control is somewhat more palatable, but we only have one power using this form ('Plant Control'), and I think it too, should be changed to be more consistent with the other named powers.
*xxx-Manipulation seems to be the most consistent choice. I think if we renamed 'Plant Control' to 'Plant Manipulation' and then also renamed 'Bliss and Horror' to 'Emotion Manipulation' we would make the powers list more consistent. This would leave us with the following related abilities in the power list:
**'''Emotion Manipulation:''' (Guillame) The ability to manipulate the emotions of others
**'''Dream Manipulation:''' (Sanjog) The ability to manipulate the dreams of others
**'''Mental Manipulation:''' (Haitian) The ability to manipulate the minds of others
**'''Plant Manipulation:''' (Au Co) The ability to manipulate plants
**'''SpaceTime Manipulation:''' (Hiro) The ability to manipulate the SpaceTime Continuum
IMO, the more consistent we are with how we name the powers, the better. <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 06/19/2007 11:42 (EST)</small>
*You make some good points, HDS. As the admin seem unlikely to accept ''bio-chemical manipulation'' or ''hormonal manipulation'' for the time being, I'm going to switch my vote again to ''Emotion Manipulation''. Plus, shame is more of an emotion than a sensation.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 12:00, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** Changed my vote. --[[User:DocM|DocM]] 12:09, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** I'm also more inclined to go with "emotion manipulation" or "emotional manipulation" at this point as well. (Admin 12:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT))
** I'm good with it, too. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:57, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
*** Actually, thinking on it, I think "sensation" is more accurate than "emotion", although I'll still accept the latter without complaint. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 13:00, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
**** I agree as well. Changing my vote. --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 13:16, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** EC sounds good, though I still kind of like "Bliss and horror".--[[User:Baldbobbo|Bob]] 13:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

* I'll take accuracy over consistency every day. I don't think "plant control" is the best name for what Au Co did, but it's loads better than "plant manipulation", which sounds like the ability to make already grown plants move or something. I don't like the idea of getting caught up in having all of our power names fall into the same pattern--to me, it's far more important that they accurately describe the power in question than that they look nice with the other power names. That said, I think "emotion manipulation" is acceptable (though I agree with Ted -- "sensation manipulation" seems more accurate with what we know about it).--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 15:48, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
** Actually, the more I think about it, the less satisfied I am with either emotional manipulation or sensation manipulation. We simply don't know enough to say with any authority whether he's altering emotions (and the physical reactions are an effect), or whether he's altering sensations (and the emotions are an effect). In other words, we don't really know if the power is psychological or physiological (although it clearly has both effects), and emotion/sensation manipulation each imply one or the other. Bliss and horror, for all its shortcomings, doesn't. It merely suggests that he can bring about both positive and negative reactions without specifying how he does so.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 22:13, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
*** It's a hard call, isn't it. I think [[user:Admin|Admin]] gave up trying to pin it down. :) Incidentally, I just emailed [[Joe Kelly]] to get his take on it. I'll let everybody know if he gets back to me. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 22:34, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

== The problem is... ==

...that a lot of the names sound great, but are we really sure any of them are what he's doing? We've seen some great examples, but we know no more about the power than we did 3 weeks ago. I love the sound of "emotion manipulation" (but not "emotional manipulation", mind you), but I can't help but think that it's still speculating on exactly what Guillame is doing.... We've been given a fine name (and poetic, too). Even if it doesn't fit with the more scientific-sounding names that we've developed (or that Suresh has developed), it's still an acceptable name and description for the power. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 17:48, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
*I think it's not too much of a stretch to go with Emotion Manipulaition. He has been shown to pretty much manipulate people's emotions. I personaly prefer anything but Bliss and Horror. --[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 17:54, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
** I don't think it's a stretch at all to go with Emotion Manipulation. Besides the questioned shame (which I think was a valid use of his power), there is also the "sexually hot" emotion he used to seduce woman (I doubt that it was simply bliss). Yes, I know that evidence is also circumstantial but you got to admit the circumstantial evidence is stacked pretty high.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 18:12, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
***I guess I'm just not sure, though the other names sound very good and are possibly good descriptions of the power, what is so wrong with "bliss and horror"? Other than personal preference or an opinionated dislike (which shouldn't be factors in choosing a name), I'm not sure why the name we were given--more than once--is so distasteful. Rather than trying to guess, conclude, or find evidence as to what he's doing, why not go with a fine description that the writers gave us? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 22:54, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
**Emotion Manipulation sounds good to me. That title sounds more formal (which this site is aiming for, right?) than Bliss and Horror. -- [[User:SacValleyDweller]] 19 June 2007 23:05 (PDT)
***I'm not so sure we ''are'' going for formality, but rather accuracy. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 02:23, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
****Taking a step back what would a non-Heroes fan expect to see here as the title of this article? A formal sounding title, like "Emotion Manipulation", that is consistent with other article titles here or this informal "Bliss and Horror" tile? I suppose the bigger issue is: How seriously do we want to be taken? The more formal we sound, the more seriously we can be taken elsewhere on the internet, in my opinion. [[User:SacValleyDweller]] 20 June 2007 15:45 (PDT)
*****IMO Accuracy is more important that formality and respect. Plus Bliss and Horrors seem to me to be more hallucination projection than emotion/sensation control, it reminds me (a psychiatry candidate) of someone having a psychotic break. Therefore I believe it should remain Bliss and Horror. [[User:Totallycharged|Guy]] 19:52, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
******Hmm... Never thought that was what his power did but, Heck, that sounds just as plausible as Emotion Manipulation [[User:SacValleyDweller]] 20 June 2007 23:05 (PDT)
*****I'm not concerned with being taken seriously. If our content is good, then people will take us seriously. If not, then they won't. But that's not really the issue. And to be honest, if I were a casual reader of the graphic novels and was looking for information on Guillame's power, I would probably search for "Guillame's power". If that only turns up an [[:Image:Effects of guillame's power.JPG|image]], or nothing substantial, I'd search for "Guillame", which would get me to this page all the same. But if I were still stuck, I'd probably search for the way the power is described in the novel. But if your concern is what a non-''Heroes'' fan would think, I wouldn't be too concerned, this being a ''fan''site and all. Even still, it wouldn't hurt to have appropriate redirects from "emotional manipulation" (or the better "emotion manipulation", or more accurate "sensation manipulation") to this page. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 19:56, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

==Haitian and Guillame skit==
*This is my intake on what someone would say to Guillame (Or however you spell his name) if the haitian asked his dad what is power is. This isn't to affend anyone. Just to bring a little joy to the subject in the heated discussion.
*Haitian: Hey daddy, what's your power?
*Guillame: My power, well my power son is Bliss and Horror.
*Haitian: *stares blankly at Guillame* hey daddy, what's your power?
*Guillame: I just told you haitian... hmmm... you need a name...
*Haitian: Oh god, i hope it isn't Bliss and Horror.
*Guillame: There is nothing wrong with Bliss and Horror. I make people think of bliss and horror! See it fits.
*Haitian: Yea I guess. But what about the vomiting and worrying about mothers. What is your power then Vomit and Mothers? C'mon dad!
*Guillame: Ok, ya know what. I'm going to use my power of bliss and horror. *tries to*.
*Haitian: hahahaha. Well i guess until you tell me more about your power we'll have to leave it... How about Bliss and horror manipulation.
*Guillame: To the fields now!
*Haitian: Fine I'm going!
I hope this brings light to the subject and makes everyone laugh. Until then *flies away, hits tree* I'm okay! If this is against rules, you can delete it. Until then, enjoy. [[User:Jason Garrick|Jason Garrick]] 13:29, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
*That's great! When does he ask his father which of those many women is his mother? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:12, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
*Thanks ryan, I decided I'm going to post little skits about the confusing and weird stuff in Heroes on my profile page. [[User:Jason Garrick|Jason Garrick]] 23:33, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
**Don't forget to include something about how Nathan was able to hear Peter say, "Shoot me. There is no other way," from a really far distance...and then answered ''Claire''. Hmm. Oh, and riddle me this: Audrey had been chasing Sylar for, what, four months, and knew his case inside out, and even chased him through the streets of Chicago, wouldn't she have recognized him when he tipped off the FBI about Ted? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 00:05, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

== I've got the perfect solution!! ==

How about we just call it "Guillame's power"? That way, there's no speculation, no controversy, and no debate. Perfect solution! :) --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 21:59, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
*Guillamekinesis.--[[User:MistressMerr|Leshia]] 01:23, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
** I do hope you're kidding. --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 12:36, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
***See, I was hoping for "Haitianfication". -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 13:30, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
****That's the best one. It sounds more formal.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 13:51, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
***** So I guess nobody wants to call it "Guillame's power"? Hmmph. :( --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 14:12, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

== ... from [[Joe Kelly]] ==

I just got an email from [[Joe Kelly]]. He wasn't very helpful as for the name, but he certainly gives a nice perspective on the power.<blockquote>As far as Guillame's power - no one would have named it in his village because they think of it as a spiritual power given by the Loa. However, I pitched it to the guys that he was a "Walking drug." So essentially, he could send you on a "good trip" (as he does during the ceremonies) or a "bad trip" (as he does to the Tonton Macoutes.) Not sure if that helps to codify it, but that's my take.</blockquote>Interesting ... -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:09, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
* So does anyone get any ideas from that? --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 14:13, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
**No, just a cool take on it. Like he said, the villagers wouldn't have named the power. We only do because we have to for the sake of the article. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:15, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
*** Heh, call it "psychoactivity", or "psychotrophicity". Or "behaviour manipulation". Or "psychopharmakinesis". Oh, the amount of names that are capable of describing this power in weak ways. --[[User:DocM|DocM]] 14:23, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
**** Actually, "psychoactivity" and "behaviour manipulation" aren't that bad...--{{User:Heroe/sig}} 14:25, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
***** "[[wikipedia:Psychoactive drug|Psychoactive alteration]]"? -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 15:16, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
******Man everyone has been ignoring my posts obviously. I thought from the beginning that is what he did --- but that it was Hallucination Projection. I am changing my vote to Hallucination Projection now with this information. [[User:Totallycharged|Guy]] 20:54, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
******* Actually, I think we ought to ask Joe if 'hormone manipulation' would fit as a description of Guillame's power. If we get a non-clear or no answer, then we should use emotion manipulation cause it definately fits and has the most votes as of now.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 03:45, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
******Psychoactvity. It's short, and it fits. Even in the worst-case senario, that a few days after we change the name someone from the writing staff says "oh yeah the official term is emotional manipulation, lol" or whatever, then we can just change it right back. Wikis were built for frequent changes. So let's not keep a ridiculous power name in the meantime, hoping that we'll hear the real name in a interview soon. Especialy since Betty is moving forwards, and people will start asking less questions about Guillame.--[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 20:53, 28 June 2007 (EDT)
*******What's "ridiculous" about "bliss and horror"? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:26, 28 June 2007 (EDT)
********I don't think that the current name's ridiculous, but I guess what they mean is that it doesn't fit with the technical names of all the other powers. To me, "Bliss and Horror" is like calling Empathic Mimicry "Power Copying" and Electronic Data Transception "Mind E-Mail and Instant Messaging." I don't agree with "Emotion Manipulation" that much (I'd rather it be called "Induced Psychoactivity" than anything), but anything's fine as long as the giganormous "THIS PAGE NEEDS A NAME CHANGE" thing is gone. XD [[User:AvadaNella|AvadaNella]] 03:41, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

== Keep it the same argument==
<blockquote>I agree with Admin. I absolutely despise the name but everything else is speculative (unlike molly [still bittered faced over clairvoyance]) and for right now it is the best description (right now) I do not like perception or sensation control (manipulation whatever) because he has to this point only produced ecstasy or horror. I don't even think it is pain and pleasure(might be, but just as well could not be) when I first read it I thought it was about a projection or hallucination of sort, much like drugs that cause both blissful and horrifying hallucinations. And for the guy who thinks it is hormone control, substance p, dopamine, and serotonin are the causes for pain and pleasure (which I am not agreeing that pain and pleasure are synonymous with bliss and horror). Though many other neurotransmitters exist in hormone form, dopamine is the only one out of these three that has a counterpart. I think it should remain bliss and horror until more (if any) is revealed about the causes and what the bliss and horror involve whether it is hallucinations or pain and pleasure. If it is hallucination, I would move toward hallucination projection.Guy 23:40, 12 June 2007 (EDT) </blockquote>

== When does voting end? ==
There are eleven votes and over 50% more votes for '''Emotion Manipulation''' than the next vote-getter. It's no more speculative a name than many of the other power-names that have been arrived at. We've waited for all 4 series to complete, and we've given several weeks for voting and discussion.....When/Who makes the call to heed the vote? <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 06/26/2007 08:21 (EST)</small>
* Voting may be considered closed. The admins are discussing whether to make a change based on popular opinion. We waiting until after the upcoming interview, in case they reveal something more definitive. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 13:55, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
** The voting is over and now so is the interview--Ryan decided not to ask again about the power again, so I think we should change the name now to '''Emotion Manipulation'''.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 02:39, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
*** Short of "bliss and horror", I find "psychoactivity" (or a variation thereof) to be the most accurate description of his power. Plus this fits in nicely with Joe's explaination of a good or bad "trip." ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 03:11, 30 June 2007 (EDT))
**** Could we just go for psychoactivity? If we went for psychoactivity right now, then people would stop complaining about "bliss and horror". And then it'd be more accurate, and thus this entire debate could end. --[[User:DocM|DocM]] 08:04, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
***** Ok, I'll third the motion to change to "psychoactivity". I'm not totally happy with the term, but I like it better than "bliss and horror".--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 09:11, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
***** I'll fourth it. --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 11:24, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
== Keep it "bliss and horror" ==
Not me. I prefer the term that Joe Kelly gave us and used more than once in the graphic novels. I don't see anything wrong with "bliss and horror", in fact I find it to be a much more accurate description of the power. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:57, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
* Imho, the current name is incomplete. Besides not describing the cause, "bliss and horror" leaves out the seduction and shame casting. I doubt that "bliss, horror, seduction and shame" will fly since the seduction and shame is doubted, so that's why I'm rooting for "psychoactivity".--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 17:17, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 04:39, 10 May 2009

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources Episodes
Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine bliss and horror's name.
Source/Explanation
Text from It Takes a Village, Part 1 explicitly names this ability.
Archives Archived Topics
June 2007-July 2007 [[Talk:Bliss and horror/Archive 1#

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Power Names

Here's the way I think about power names (not that it's an official position or anything--I just want to clarify why I feel the way I do in any given case).

  • Is it named in an episode or graphic novel?--If so, we're pretty much stuck with that. "Induced radioactivity" and "rapid cell regeneration" are both mouthfuls that could probably have better names, but alas, that's what they're called. Now, it's possible these could change, but it would pretty much take a new canon example to override them (Mohinder to Claire: "My father was wrong! Your cells don't regenerate -- you steal cells from extradimensional copies of yourself!")
  • Is it named in secondary sources?--A similar case can be made for calling Matt's ability "telepathy". It's been called that in interviews and promotional materials, as well as in his Heroes 360 dossier, so we're stuck with that, too, even though he can't project thoughts.
  • Is there a common name for this power already?--Big examples of this would be "pyrokinesis" and "telekinesis". I wouldn't be a fan of either of these if they weren't already so well-established in comic books and parapsychology.

Once those two options are exhausted (and only then), it's time to consider making up a name. Here's how I look at it:

  • Is the name speculative?--It's important to consider if the name is speculating about either the effects or the mechanics of the power. For example, we could call Nathan's power "self-propulsion" (which is much fancier than "flight", and therefore probably "better" to some minds), but we don't actually know how he flies, only that he flies. For example, Magneto was originally said to be able to fly by "severing magnetic lines of force" (whatever that means), effectively canceling gravity. He didn't propel himself. And Guardian was able to disengage himself from Earth's gravitational pull, allowing him to stay stationary while the Earth rotated under him, effectively letting him fly west (and only west) very fast. It's unlikely Nathan flies in either of these fashions, but the point is that observable flight doesn't necessarily mean propulsion.
  • Is the name broad enough?--Does it cover everything we've seen the character do?
  • Is the name too broad?--Does it imply an ability to do things we haven't seen?
  • Is the name straight-forward?--I, personally, will always prefer a plain-English name to a neologism--mostly because most such words end up being either over- or under-inclusive, and people frequently abuse the hell out of Latin and Greek roots and affixes, using them to mean things they simply do not mean. This leads to a confusing power name. As a rule, if somebody needs to grab a dictionary--and particularly a foreign language dictionary--to understand why a power has a given name, it's a bad name for the power.
  • The very last thing I consider is how the name sounds. The coolest-sounding name is no good if it's unnecessarily technical, speculative, or over- or under-broad.

With that in mind, my approach to this power is thus: 1) we have a name for it from the graphic novel; 2) even though a lot of people dislike that name, we don't have a compelling canon reason to override it; 3) there isn't another widely-accepted name for this ability; 4) the suggestions for alternatives are either speculative, overbroad, underinclusive, or unnecessarily technical.

I think it's important that we work through this now because chances are better than not that, with the emphasis on other cultures next season (to say nothing of a story set centuries in the past), we'll be getting lots more canon power names that might not sound fancy or formal enough--and that, as far as I'm concerned, is tough. We're just going to have to deal with "the drunken monkey's kiss" or "stench of a thousand corpses" or whatever they throw at us and avoid the impulse to come up with things like "putrification manipulation" or "biodegradokinesis" and the like. Canon wins, plain and simple.--Hardvice (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

  • Sounds like the beginning to a standard, which is just what I was hoping to see come about. I found your mentioning of different cultures to be interesting. It occurs to me that with these special abilities having a global scope and existing throughout time that the name of the power itself reflects the culture in which it was exhibited. Our original powers originated from Chandra's research who, as a scientist, applied scientific names to each of the powers. Since his research was the basis for our original naming, it stuck as a general convention. As we see how different cultures interpret these powers, I can see a certain value in preserving the cultural interpretation of that power when naming it here instead of requiring everything to conform to what was essentially Chandra's method of naming the powers. (Admin 16:46, 2 July 2007 (EDT))
  • Thank you for breaking that down, Hardvice. I think you outlined nicely a general guideline for power naming conventions, which has been informally adhered to in the past, but may need to be a stricter guideline in the near future. I believe that you touched on the heart of why this page is so long--"bliss and horror" is a good name given to us, but it's odd as hell. (Incidentally, I'm enjoying how much discussion this one GN power has generated--it's fantastic that it's brought up some bigger issues, too.) You're right, we as a community really need to come to a consensus not so much on the name of this power (although we definitely do) but on the big picture of naming powers altogether. Your breakdown seems logical and in keeping with the philosophy of our site, though I'd personally rank speculation above being too broad or too narrow, but that's a minor point. :) And, for the record, I'm really looking forward to "the drunken monkey's kiss". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
    • Good point re: the order of the questions. I didn't actually intend for it to be hierarchical, but since I mention that I consider the "coolness" of the name last, it probably should be (and I've edited my original comment to reflect this).--Hardvice (talk) 17:08, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
      • To bad this is a wiki and not a church....we could just form a 'name the power committee' and let the populace embrace or detest the naming-committee's choice. Perhaps eventually, with a guideset for naming similar to what you've started above, that might be a workable approach. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 07/2/2007 18:14 (EST)
        • Thanks, Hardvice. I've repeatedly ask for those guidelines and had been waiting for that for a while. But there's one more thing, and that's that some of the answers can have a degree of personal bias, and that's okay--but Admin needs to state clearly who gets the final say on the name: if the fans (not-the-admin), then we either change it to "emotion manipulation" or hold a new vote; if it's by admin majority, there are still a few left who haven't chipped in; and if it's The Admin himself, then we should change to "psychoactivity" and put this one to sleep for now.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:27, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
        • PS: I am no way agreeing that canon provides the best name, but I thought I mention another possibility. Thru the magic of redirects, can we have both names? Ie. Could we list on the page both the canon and fan-chosen name when they differ?--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:52, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
          • Canon doesn't provide the "best" name, it provides the name. Canon power names are actually the only part of this that is already an established rule. I mean, if they say it's called "induced radioactivity", then it's called "induced radioactivity". We can't change that any more than we could decide Mr. Bennet's first name is really "Abraham" instead of "Noah". Accurately reporting canon content is our first function.--Hardvice (talk) 19:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
          • I don't see any reason why we couldn't have a redirect from a reasonable description to a canonical name. I'm not opposed to that, especially if other sites refer to the name that particular way. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:56, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
            • Not talking about other sites. If Admin isn't willing to come to a decision as to who has the final say, we could name the power page "Guillame's power" with redirects from "emotion manipulation" and "Bliss and horror". On the page itself, we would list both names (fan and canon) in the description and infobox. The advantage of this is that it avoid arguments as to which should be the page's name and it still has some teeth (as Hardvice so delicately put it).--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
              • I'm not a fan of needlessly calling it "Guillame's power" just to avoid people getting upset at the name. I don't like the name "rapid cell regeneration", but I wouldn't think about changing the page to "Claire's power". For better or worse, we have a name that works. I personally don't mind an "emotional manipulation" redirect (or whatever), but I don't think the power should be called "Guillame's power". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                • Are you okay with calling it "Emotion manipulation" and redirecting from "Bliss and horror"? If you are, then maybe we've made progress...--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:58, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                  • No. "Bliss and horror" was given in a canon source. "Emotional manipulation" was not. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:01, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                    • Then we're still left with Admin determining what has final say (the users' vote, the admin vote or his personal opinion).--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:05, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                      • In cases like this where after considerable effort there is no community consensus then it comes down to administrative consensus. If there is no administrative consensus, then I make the decision. We've heard from Ryan and Hardvice. I would like to see other administrators discuss this as well to see if we already have administrative consensus. (Admin 00:20, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
                        • Thanks for commenting Admin, but for the record, "emotion manipulation" won the users vote over "keep it the same" by almost a 2:1 margin. That doesn't qualify as consensus? This is totally about admin appeal (not community consensus), imho. Assuming the administrators vote proceeds, Ted has also already piped in today. We're mainly waiting on Bob. Orne's been gone since March.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                          • Voting is only a mechanism to help determine whether consensus already exists, it does not determine consensus. Wikipedia has some info on consensus decision-making to help clarify. (Admin 01:42, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
                            • There's different models listed in that help. But if we're going by the rough consensus model, the help says "the question of consensus is left to the judgment of the working group chair"--that's why I asked.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:56, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                          • Sorry for the delay. Work's been killing me (just got off less than an hour ago). I put earlier in the talk page that I wanted to stay with "bliss and horror" because it's not speculative and clearly states what the ability is. I still hold that true since the other proposed names do not fulfill this. So my apologies for not chiming in earlier, but I've just been really bogged down with work and trying to rest.--Bob 03:33, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                          • As admins, we enforce the standards of the wiki. Community consensus can't override a standard -- if everybody agreed to speculate that Hiro is Peter's dad, or everybody agreed that the recently-published Season Two ending wasn't a spoiler, it wouldn't matter. In this case, the administrators are in consensus that "bliss and horror" is the canon name given (and that's really the question--not "is 'bliss and horror' the best name?", but "is 'bliss and horror' meant to be a name for the power?", since we always use canon names when given) and that the other suggestions are speculative.--Hardvice (talk) 04:01, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                            • It is questionable whether "bliss and horror" is meant to be a power name. The admin vote is 3-2, unless Ted and Admin changed their minds and I don't know about it; and it's Admin that determines whether that defines admintrative consensus.--MiamiVolts (talk) 09:20, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                              • For what it's worth, I'm going to say "leave it be", at least for now. --Ted C 09:39, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                              • I say leave it be as well. I am ok with it as the name for the ability. (Admin 09:44, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
  • Wow. That's one hell of a read. I was totally persuaded by the "It's canon" argument. I didn't realize so much thought really went into this. "Bliss and Horror" FTW!!! --Mish 00:29, 14 November 2007 (EST)
    • Either a lot of thought, or a really boring summer. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:32, 14 November 2007 (EST)
  • I vote for Emotion Manipulation. --Snow Leapord 07:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)

emotional manipulation

bliss and horror is not a poper name for his power can we change this name to emotional manipulation or empathic projection , since i watched an episode of x-men i saw the similarties between what he can do with annalee, either empathic projection or emotional manilulation would be a good name for his power--Zoga78 19:17, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

  • Check out the archive discussion here as emotional manipulation has already been mentioned and it was decided to go with "Bliss and horror" since that's how the power was referenced in the story.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:30, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
    • Why are you ressurecting dead duscusions? --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 01:29, 19 April 2008 (EDT)
      • Maybe because they didn't know. Probably why. Jason Garrick 18:13, 30 April 2008 (EDT)
    • I wish I could change it into something that sounds a bit more scientific than something like "Bliss and Horror" if the subject ever comes up again or you guys would like to take a look into voting again, I would try emotion projection or inducement. However if people feel that calling Sound Manipulation "Super Screaming" instead, then by all means keep it this way. --DontEatRawHagis 00:19, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
      • Actually, I kind of like that it's not a scientific-sounding name. The It Takes a Village arc was very much not a scientific-based story. In fact, it was quite religious and spiritually based. I like that the name of the power reflects that. It reflects the essence of Guillame, in my opinion. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:39, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
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