Talk:Space-time manipulation

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources	Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources	Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources	Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities	Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities	Descriptions
6. Possessor's name	If no non-speculative description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine space-time manipulation's name.
Source/Explanation
Hiro says he can "bend space and time" in Genesis.

This article could use an image and references. --Ted C 15:16, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Examples Limit

The Examples section is way too long. Heroe 14:43, 3 January 2007 (EST)

• We've already discussed the possibility of limiting the number of examples in Powers pages, as they would grow out of control over the course of a 5-year plotline. Identify which examples you think are best, and how many you think should be the max for one Powers page. --Ted C 14:46, 3 January 2007 (EST)
• I agree it's at its max, but not that it's too long. I think if we add any more examples, we'll have to take some out (perhaps some of the less dynamic examples, like teleporting into the ladies room). Let's discuss possibilities before deleting examples, though.

  Just another suggestion - perhaps, for the completionist in me, we could have just a few illustrative examples on each individual power page, and then a link to another full and complete list, perhaps something called "List of Space-time manipulation examples"? Thoughts? - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:26, 3 January 2007 (EST)

  • See here for further discussion.

Manipulation is misnomer

"Exactly how this ability works is unclear." Using the phrase "stopping time" is actually a misnomer. We can only venture into speculation this early in the series, but we can't jump to the conclusion that he can affect time or space in any manner. In fact, time is but a measurement, from the limited perception of we linear temporal beings. Time doesn't really exist any more than a 'meter' or a 'fathom' exists. Comparing the time he stopped time in front of Micah & DL to the time he failed to stop time to get the sword and slowed it instead, I believe it safe for us to presume that Hiro is not stopping and starting time. He is only realigning his place in time, much like moving a needle on the grooves of a record. To be honest, if he literally stopped all time in the universe, that would include gravity, causing him to hurl out into space like an ant being thrown off a spinning orange. Since gravity is not affected, and he can breathe normally, and other laws of physics seem to affect him like the size and weight of surrounding objects, he's not altering reality in any manner, just his relation to it. In fact, it's really the only rational explanation based on what we've thus far observed. He doesn't stop time. He speeds up or slows down, puts himself in reverse, or fast forwards himself through reality, outside temporal constraints. In fact, I would go so far as to say whatever Hiro does has nothing in common with people whose genetics have been affected. Hiro's ability is not merely a genetic mutation. It's something beyond mere humanoid biology. -- ZachsMind 15:56, 3 February 2007 (EST)

• I don't think it is necessary to try to describe any of the abilities on Heroes in a way that agrees with real life science. We can take for granted that none of them will stand up to that scrutiny. I don't agree with everything you say about time on a philosophical level. But it really isn't necessary to even get into that debate here, because when Hiro describes his own power he says that he can bend time and space. So I think "space-time manipulation" is about as good as we can get for now.--E rowe 16:06, 3 February 2007 (EST)

Character section

If you are not going to allow the Peter comment on this section, then also a change in the Episode description should also be amended as it says "but Peter manages to stop time right before the probes reach him and causes them to drop to the ground". Now, do consider that when he used TK the background sound was entirely different as when he "allegedly" stopped time. When he "allegedly" did so, the sound and animation effect used were more consistent with Hiro's abilities. (which happened to have a "trademark" sound/effect) --Cjfer

• I didn't know it was there. I'll fix. --Ted C 11:12, 20 February 2007 (EST)
  • Please double check Episode's discussion tab. Admin made the same argument I am making. --Cjfer 12:36, 20 February 2007 (EST)
    • Already working on it. --Ted C 12:39, 20 February 2007 (EST)

Comparisons between Hiro, Sylar and Peter when faced with a shooting object shows that Peter stopping the taser probe at the rooftop has more to do with Telekenesis den time-stopping. If he just stops the time around the probe, the probe will still go through when time resumes so a better choice with time-manipulation is to reverse the time around the projectile so it returns to the chamber(like when hiro did it)... Sylar stopped Mohinder's bullet with TK and it fell on the ground after spinning and hanging in midair.. from this we can get the conclusion that Peter is using TK and not time-manipulation..--Zenithdoom 03:08, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

• You can't conclude that. Both powers have been used to stop bullets already. Sylar used it to stop a bullet that Mohinder fired, Hiro used it to stop a bullet that Hope fired. The difference is that when Peter stopped the probes you heard the classic sound of time slowing down plus the clicking of the tazer slows and stops. Once the probes fall the sound resumes. Telekinesis would not have caused the clicking noise to slow down, stop, then restart anyway. I'm not saying he didn't use telekinesis to throw the darts to the ground, it seems reasonable that he may have. I'm just saying the darts initially stopped due to him slowing/stopping time. (Admin 03:16, 11 March 2007 (EDT))
  • You may not be able to conclude that it must be telekinesis, but there's also no proof that it was time manipulation. Points: 1. if Peter could manipulate space time, why would he fly away not teleport, which would be much safer? 2. How could he possibly use Hiro's power more easily than Hiro himself on Peter's first and ONLY use of it? 3. Most importantly, he automatically reacted as was neccesary in the situation to save his life, right? now if he could stop time for that, how is it that he couldn't reverse time a bit to save Simone? The woman he loves dies, and he doesn't use one of his powers that he ABSOLUTELY has, to fix it??? in fact if memory serves says he CAN'T fix it, which surely after seeing Hiro come back from the future, he must no that time can go backwards. That makes absolutely no sense... Now the sound effect is a nice point, but not a do all and end all of this argument, they use the sounds because they sound cool, and they've done that before and since, such as when Peter's voice sounds much the same as Eve's did when he's yelling at Isaac, he wasn't using Eve's power, they just wanted it to sound cool! I accept that there is a possibility that it was Time manipulation, however it doesn't make much sense at all, and so should be listed as a possible usage, not a definite one, because that just doesn't stack up.(Koruzarius 00:02, 13 March 2007 (EDT))
    • My input on this is that you hear Peter breathing even when the darts are stopped. Second, when they drop, you see the suprised look on Bennet's face as in "What the hell just happened?" versus an immediate reaction if stopped solely with telekinesis, wherein they could just shoot him again or chase after him then. Also, Claude's moving in the background, as is Peter. My vote is that it's space-time. I originally thought he dropped the darts with telekinesis after he stopped time, and I still stay with that observation (since the darts on their timeline were never on the floor, Hiro's reversal trick doesn't apply, but stopping certainly does). --Baldbobbo 01:17, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
      • Look how slow Claude is moving when Peter stops time. He doesn't look like anyone writing with voltage moving or just recently moving through is body. I however don't think that Peter stopped it completely. It seems he used chronokinesis and then telekinesis, since he doesn't have a grasp on his powers. His CK was like Hiro's when he made time go really, really slow. Also, why would Peter unconsciously absorb EVERYONE ELSE'S power, but not Future Hiro's? It's time control.OUChevelleSS 19:36, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Montecito / Corinthian

I got the impression they're two different casinos. I mean, they'd be hard pressed to say that the scenes from Collision & Run! took place in the Corinthian, since everything has "Montecito" plastered all over it. Also, the sets are completely different. It's also worth noting that the Corinthian website calls it Linderman's newest casino.--Hardvice (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2007 (EST)

"How it's done" section?

• Do we think we should have a section which explains how the time-freezing scenes are actually accomplished (green screen + actors miming)? --   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  08:40, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
  • You mean for the visual effects? I think we could have a note about it, and then a link to Inside Heroes or Heroes Unmasked, since that's the source of the information. Those articles are better suited for explaining away the intricacies of the VFX, and this article, if anything, should only briefly summarize the process. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:47, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
    • Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. --   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  08:56, 19 August 2007 (EDT)

Intense concentration?

The page mentions at the start of the limits section for Hiro that "All of Hiro's space-time manipulation abilities require intense concentration." I think this is obsolete; in recent episodes, Hiro seems to have a much better handle on his power, using it with apparently little effort. This is also somewhat noted later in the limits section: "Upon obtaining the sword of Takezo Kensei, he was immediately able to teleport himself and Ando through both time and space with relative ease." However, after that, there's no mention of his using the power with less effort, even though it does mention him using it without the sword. My point is, should we amend the article, to mention Hiro's apparent mastery over his power? We would still keep the "intense concentration" note at the top, but make it more past-tense, as in "When he first manifested his power, and for some time afterward, Hiro needed intense concentration to use his power.", with a mention of Hiro using it with more ease later on? Perhaps mention how his power seems to have developed a fair bit with practice, for example: he mentioned in his blog at one point (Mudslide, to be precise) that he couldn't hold on to the time-freeze for more than twenty seconds, then in a later episode, he froze time for long enough to either fold 1000 origami cranes for Charlie, or to transport them all from somewhere else, if he'd already folded them. I'd be happy to make these changes myself, I'd just like to have a green light first. --Anomaly 06:07, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

• While Hiro's power use is much more reliable than it used to be, I'm still noticing that he usually closes his eyes and furrows his brow when he activates it. I can moderate the statement some, though. --Ted C 09:51, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

Opium

"Hiro's ability has been subdued by giving off fumes of opium, thus disabling him from stopping time or teleporting." I'm not sure this is accurate. Did the opium subdue his powers, or just make him too zonked out to summon up enough concentration or willpower to use them?N W 11:59, 6 November 2007 (EST)

• It had to do with breaking his concentration, not disabling his powers. Hiro was still able to teleport after inhaling all that opium fume. Yaeko also told him that he needed to concentrate.--Ice Vision 16:37, 17 November 2007 (EST)

I

Other Teleporters

We have a couple of other people who "teleport" listed in the notes. I put them back there after someone moved them under the Characters heading. It is our policy that we don't list someone as a "Character" with the power until they demonstrate it in an episode or GN, correct? Also, we don't know if their teleportation abilities work on the same principles. --Ted C 13:11, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Confirmed/Unconfirmed

SAC, Like they subHeadings. Putting the unconfirmed at the top just keeps them from getting buried and lost at the bottom of ever-growing pages, and makes it quick and easy for anyone coming to a power page to see who "all" of the people who may have the power are.--HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 05/24/2008 09:31 (EST)

Teleportation page

Just wondering because it seems as if we are going to have more teleporters now should we create a seprate page for Teleportation instead of redirecting it. They are actually two seprate abilities that Hiro and Peter just so happen to posess in a different way. Just a thought. Shoyru1177

• I don't think so. There are a ton of pages that link to teleport, teleportion, teleports, and teleporting, and it would be silly to go back and change all those links just because we have some people we are told can teleport. If those others demonstrated their ability, there might be a weak argument for a subpage or something, but even then, teleportation is teleportation. I'd rather just create a separate section on the page for teleportation if it ever becomes something that we see as a unique power. But until then, the page is fine as it is, if you ask me. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:20, 11 June 2008 (EDT)