Talk:Heroism

OK, I finally felt someone had to write the article. It is one of the most wanted on the site. Do we want to link back to every single act of heroism on the show, or is that just too much info? I feel it would serve little purpose, possibly with the exception of acts of heroism so grand they have an article completely of their own. Cuardin 12:44, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Yes, we will want to link back to episodic and graphic novel recurrences of heroism. See Family, Moral ambiguity, Sacrifice, and Secrets and deception for other examples. If an article is still so grand that it would warrant it's own article, it would probably be an event (like train wreck). - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:01, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Ok, I added all the occurences I could find. In order to keep the list reasonably long, I decided to only include events where the person performing the act actually took a risk for someone else. Claire running Brody into the wall wasn't an act of Heroism. She knew, with absolute certainity, that she would make it out of there alive and unharmed. Punching Jackie could have lead to her being suspended from school though, and thus it qualifies, even if it is kinda cheesy compared to the epicness of the saga as a whole. -- Cuardin 15:04, 14 January 2007 (EST)

I think you did a great job finding some acts of heroism. I disagree that Claire punching Jackie (and Matt sucker-punching Tom) is heroism - I think that's moral ambiguity. If you need help looking for more examples of heroism, check out this page - it shows all the places that already have a "heroism" link (there's quite a few - the page is pretty well-linked already). - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:54, 14 January 2007 (EST)

I used that page as a starter, but very few of those pages talk about acts that were heroic, and many tank about things like Janice calling Matt her "hero". If you go strictly by my definition abouve with the "personal risk", then this is it. I didn't run through all the minor characters, but so far there hasn't been that much "minor role" heroics. Not like startrek where every single minor role died in the line of duty within one episode. - Cuardin 16:19, 14 January 2007 (EST)

I'm not sure every act of heroism needs to cause personal risk - perhaps we should broaden the definition. As for Janice calling Matt her hero, I don't know if we need to see every act of heroism to know why it is mentioned. But if you want to leave that one out, I guess that'd be fine. Other heroic acts you might want to remember (in absolutely no order other than the order in which they come to my mind):

• Hiro wanting to stop the explosion
• Claire rescuing the train wreck victim
• Nathan flying to save his falling brother
• Claire pulling Brody out of the crashed car
• Matt shooting (well, trying to shoot) Sylar to save Audrey
• Matt saving Molly - twice
• Mohinder pleading with the FBI to check out his father's list
• Nathan flying to save Sheila
• Isaac running after the bus accident victim (maybe?)
• Mohinder vowing to "slay the monster"
• Micah imploring his dad to go back and save Niki
• Eden defending Isaac's right not to use heroin, and then helping him escape (may be moral ambiguity?)
• Eden heroically sacrificing her life to keep Sylar from getting her power (even Bennet calls her a hero)

This is just a stream-of-consciousness list - use it if you want, or take some out if you want, doesn't really matter to me. :)

One other thing - for standardization purposes, try to follow the same format as the other recurring themes. In other words, maybe we should organize the list by episode rather than by character. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:40, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Indents are getting a bit cumbersome, so I am doing a wrap-around. The ones below are worthy of mention, as for the rest, the characters did not percieve any risk whatoever in doing it. Perhaps a category of "good deeds" would be appropriate if we want to honor these acts.

• Matt shooting (well, trying to shoot) Sylar to save Audrey

Definate candidate. I am gonna check the sequence out and judge. I think Audrey might be the real hero of that piece, though.

• Nathan flying to save Sheila

The fire was definately a risk here. Clear case.

• Micah imploring his dad to go back and save Niki

Does DL ever turn back, or does Jessica catch up? If they turn back, it is a gold star on DL, Micah had nothing to lose pleading.

• Eden defending Isaac's right not to use heroin, and then helping him escape (may be moral ambiguity?)

Well, I call it heroism, but it is awfully close to the two punches.....

• Eden heroically sacrificing her life to keep Sylar from getting her power (even Bennet calls her a hero)

Clear case. Eden deservs a statue.

-- Cuardin 15:04, 15 January 2007 (EST)

Just a quick comment about Matt and Audrey shooting at Sylar. I would refrain from trying to label one or the other as "The Hero" of the situation. Undoubtedly, they both were heroic. Ultimately, this will be taken care of when we reorganize the list by episode (to be standardized) and not by character .... Good thoughts about the others. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:28, 15 January 2007 (EST)

I see you've already reorganized the list. Nice work. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:30, 15 January 2007 (EST)

Allready done. Check it out and give any feedback. Cuardin 16:30, 15 January 2007 (EST)

Well, Ryan, I still think your definition of a hero is so watered out you can take it intraveneously. Some of those examples you put in are, all things taken into account, about as heroic as if I were to help an old lady across the road. Admirable deeds, I admit, but not even close to being called "heroic". -- Cuardin 05:23, 17 January 2007 (EST)

That's fine - if you want to take them out, go ahead. I'm not tied to the examples I added. :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:38, 17 January 2007 (EST)

How about we make a list called "good deeds"? Because these things definitely should not be swept under a rug. -- Cuardin 10:29, 17 January 2007 (EST)

That's cool too. I don't suggest changing the name of the article - but if there's something you don't feel is particularly heroic, maybe you could make a new section called "Other Good Deeds" and include them there (using parenthetical cites).- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:45, 17 January 2007 (EST)

"Heroes" The Show as analysis of The Concept "Heroes"

I was trying to ascertain from this article just how many characters in the story really are heroes. Based on this article, one could hypothesize that up to the point of "Distractions" there are only nine characters which have certainly performed indisputably heroic actions. Claire saved the man in the train. Nathan saved his brother from falling. Matt & Audrey saved Molly from Sylar. Hiro and DL saved that couple from the car wreck. Niki realized after Jess struck Micah, that the only 'right' action left available to her was to turn herself in. Eden put herself in harm's way to try and kill Sylar, and when she failed in her effort she destroyed her grey matter hoping that would keep Sylar from aquiring her ability. Didn't work, but still, heroic effort. Other characters performed other actions which can be added to this list.. and as I review my own list of unselfish actions where risk was involved, I question even these examples. Claire had figured out she couldn't take permanent damage, so what was she risking when she went into that train? The answer to that is normality. The world could have found out she wasn't normal. She dodged that bullet by allowing another cheerleader to take the credit, and ultimately get killed in her stead, because Sylar thought Jackie was Claire. So there were consequences for her initial actions which led to Homecoming. In that moment however, when Claire was faced with entering a burning train to save a dying man, she was not risking herself physically. She knew she'd be okay. So to her, the risk was equivalent to saving a drowning puppy from a babbling brook. There are certainly risks, but they are negligible. Would we still consider that heroic? If you have special powers that allow you to know things others don't know, go places others can't, or withstand pressures that would kill normal people, is it heroic to use these abilities? Is Audrey more heroic than Matt because she goes into danger without any telepathic abilities alerting her to other dangerous people potentially in a room. She doesn't know what her enemy is thinking, so she's comparatively blind. Does that make her more of a hero? Does Matt having this crutch make him less of a hero? Or is he just as heroic cuz given the opportunity but not the power, he'd probably rush in there anyway where fools fear to tread? And what of the motive? Is Matt doing heroic things because he honestly wants to do the right thing, or like Audrey is he playing hero because he thinks it will improve his chances of advancement and allow him the notoriety offered to a hero? Does telepathy improve the odds of being seen a hero, or being seen a weirdo mutant crazy guy, or worse a pathetic liar pretending to have abilities? If he's a hero in the eyes of his wife, does it matter that the entire police department thinks he's a loser? Nathan either couldn't or didn't save his wife in that car wreck, but he did and could save his brother from falling. Then he told everyone that Peter was suicidal and didn't die by stupid luck, in order to protect his own reputation. Does lying about a heroic deed negate the act, or amplify the humility of the do-gooder? Was Nathan trying to protect both him and Peter from being dissected by people like Bennet, or was he just selfishly protecting his own reputation as a public figure? In that nanosecond of fight or flight, he didn't rescue his wife. He instinctively flew out of harm's way, and then helplessly watched his wife become a parapeligic. Had he spent that nanosecond trying to pull her with him out of the car, perhaps they'd both be dead now. Would that have been heroic, or just stupid? I didn't include Isaac in my above list of nine, as he hasn't done anything particularly heroic yet, but he has managed to successfully (for now) defeat an addiction to heroin. That alone is arguably a Herculean task, and therefore arguably kinda heroic - anyone related to a person who beats drug addiction could compare it to an heroic act. However, is that really objectively an action that one could say makes a hero? Did his time at the paper company serve as an heroic act, or were the facilities there what did most of the work for him? Is Eden or Bennet responsible in any way for getting Isaac off the stuff, and does that lessen Isaac's heroism for himself? I could go on and on citing each example and looking at the ramifications and permutations of each act but this thing got too long already. Are any of these people really heroes? ...is what I'm trying to ask. -- ZachsMind 13:34, 11 February 2007 (EST)