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Talk:Main Page/Archive 2

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WARNING: Talk:Main Page/Archive 2 is an archive of past messages. New messages should be added to Talk:Main Page.

Previews/Trailers/Videos Page

OK, maybe this isn't the best place to post this, but I looked around awhile, and couldn't find a more generic place to write about suggestions, so I opted for the main-page. I really like alot of what is being posted here, and what is available from a fan's perspective. One of the things however, that we don't have (and I couldn't find anything on), is a page dedicated to linking to the available episodes themselves, and the barrage of trailers that keep coming out. With the huge growth of popularity of the show, NBC is pumping out all kinds of cool trailers. Last week it was the Ted/Hana Preview during Deal or No Deal. Earlier this week, they came out with Previews (both US and Canada) of RUN. Later today I found a new trailer of a newly release scene between Sylar and HRG where they actually show HRG's Primatech Paper Company ID up-close (No, I couldn't make out his first name). My point is, I have to go to YouTube, or NBC, or several different Heroes sites to find all of the available trailers and preview clips that are out there, to stay caught up. What if we created our own 'Previews' page, and it could be ordered chronologically, with links to the Episode Streams on NBC, to the Previews Commercials (wherever they are found), and even the GNs? I personally, would like to have a one-stop page to go to that has all known available clips and previews for Heroes, and what better place to host that than the Heroes Wiki Fansite?

Is there any bad reason not to do this? Or is it a useful and good idea? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 17:07, 02 February 2007 (EST)

  • Right now, the episodes are linked from the individual episode pages, and there's a link to the whole NBC.com video page from Links. I like the idea of links to the upcoming previews, but they come and go pretty fast. I'm not sure what the best answer is ... putting them on the individual Spoiler pages for each episode makes the most sense (the page is already there, and then there's no need to maintain them ... just archive them instead). That said, it defeats the idea of having them all centrally located. Maybe we can make the current previews links a template (for easier maintenance) and add them to Links. That's the most logical place, I'd say.--Hardvice (talk) 16:39, 2 February 2007 (EST)
  • Come to think of it, we can put the episode links in the same template. Let me work something up.--Hardvice (talk) 16:43, 2 February 2007 (EST)
    • I just noticed that NBC has 'goofed up' their episode rewinds.....now they are no longer making available 2-8. Just Genesis, and then Homecoming forward. Bummer. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 18:07, 02 February 2007 (EST)
      • I doubt it's a goof. They said all along that they were online "for a limited time". In any case, I added a template: Template:videosplain. It's not formatted yet, but it should give you some idea of what the box will look like. Is that sort of what you had in mind?--Hardvice (talk) 17:00, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Portal Navbar (cont.)

The vertical bar looks... interesting. I would say keep it only if we change the Article of the Week format. That bulky format fills up the screen - fast. ---- 14:17, 3 January 2007 (EST)

  • The problem is definitely with the AOTW. It already looked like crap at anything below 1280x1024 because of the blurb + sidebar combo.--Hardvice (talk) 14:26, 3 January 2007 (EST)
  • Not a big fan of the veritical bar personally. Strikes me as out of place and difficult to read (left to right easier than top to bottom). Just my opinion. (Admin 15:15, 3 January 2007 (EST))
    • How about ... diagonal? (hehehe) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:19, 3 January 2007 (EST)
    • The horizontal one is just so freaking huge ... at low res it's like a third of the page. We can keep it, but it really makes me want to cry. (OK, maybe not...)--Hardvice (talk) 15:30, 3 January 2007 (EST)
      • Now maybe if we kept it one line and put it in a scroll box...--Hardvice (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2007 (EST)
        • I think I'd like the scroll bar less. haha. If you take the vertical bar with cells sized exactly like it is now and make it horizontal then it should fit in one or two lines, shouldn't it? (Admin 15:35, 3 January 2007 (EST))
        • Though more importantly, it comes down to what everyone else thinks of it. Do most people prefer it being vertical over horizontal? If so, let me suffer. :) (Admin 15:37, 3 January 2007 (EST))
          • Horizontal ---- 15:38, 3 January 2007 (EST)
          • Horizontal is best (for so many things...) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:46, 3 January 2007 (EST)
  • What about axeing the template-index? The navbar does its job - in style. ---- 15:38, 3 January 2007 (EST)
    • I can get behind that, but then I'm obsessed with the portals.--Hardvice (talk) 15:42, 3 January 2007 (EST)
    • I'd say if we can leave it, let's. I think it's nice to have one-click access to a lot of the popular topics like the template-index has. But if it ends up getting in the way I think we can kill it. I just wouldn't want to get rid of it unnecessarily even though the portals give you access to the same info. (Admin 15:50, 3 January 2007 (EST))
      • I like it better with, now that I've seen both. And since it's all the way at the bottom, it only adds length, which is no real problem.--Hardvice (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2007 (EST)
      • What would help, though, is moving Template:Todo to the bottom and making it horizontal. The right column is always longer than the left, and the tasks look out of place alongside all that content.--Hardvice (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2007 (EST)

I attempted to fix the article of the week - but now, it may be too small. ---- 15:15, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Fan Site

can http://www.heroes-forum.com be Placed on the box of the article?

It's reserved for sites that prominently link to us on their main page (or on all pages). I've contacted them before about crosslinking, but my emails are always apparently ignored since I never receive a response. (Admin 15:51, 5 January 2007 (EST))

Wikipedia vs Heroeswiki

  • I was browsing Wikipedia's version, and decided to pop over to their Discussion page. Apparently there's a mini-war going on over what they think of HW, and let's just say that they aren't very kind to us. Anyone mind if we start de-linking our articles from Wikipedia? I personally don't think they deserve any more traffic from us than the minimum... --Orne 15:49, 8 January 2007 (EST)
    • Actually, yes, I do mind. Just because there are a few (or many) small-minded folks over at the talk page on Wikipedia's Heroes article doesn't mean Wikipedia itself is bad. In fact, Wikipedia really is a very good resource, in my opinion. Not perfect, but neither are we. I don't think we should necessarily link to the Heroes article at Wikipedia, but I think it's just fine to link to other reference articles on Wikipedia. (I think that's primarily the only links we have Wikipedia on the main pages anyway, right?) Plus - lots of pages link to Wikipedia, that's a bigger task than its worth just because some people don't like our site. :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2007 (EST)
    • Wikipedia is still a good place for useful or neat information, even if there are a few vocal editors that don't like Heroes Wiki. I think that if a link adds to the article it should be kept (or added), there is no reason to withhold information just because they do. -Level 16:23, 8 January 2007 (EST)
    • Sounds like someone's acting a little territorial. Funny they should disparage HeroesWiki for being a fansite when it says on the front page that that's exactly what we are. --Ted C 16:52, 8 January 2007 (EST)
    • There are two things at play here. First off, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, Heroes Wiki is a fansite albeit one based on collecting information on Heroes. Wikipedia has more strict criteria for inclusion than we do. As such, it may or may not be appropriate for there to be a link from Wikipedia to here. That's up to their policies and personally it doesn't matter to me if they link to us or not. Secondly you've got some people on Wikipedia who have trouble detaching emotion from their work there. Perhaps frustrated by the popularity of Heroes Wiki since Heroes Wiki, by its very nature, is designed to be more oriented towards what fans want to see rather than being constrained by the rules of an encyclopedia. There are pros and cons to either approach. In any event Wikipedia is a good resource despite the actions of certain problem editors. We currently link to Wikipedia for non-Heroes content as any Heroes-related content we'd just add here ourselves. As far as the Heroes pages on Wikipedia go, I'd just suggest ignoring the discussions. Their opinions aren't really important to us. :) (Admin 18:25, 8 January 2007 (EST))
    • Lol, where have I seen all of this before? I know! This very same issue was going on with fellow sci-fi-hit-TV-show-devoted-wiki-based-fansite Lostpedia. I watched all of that unfold as it went, and it was a bloody battle in its own right. Remember, guys, being included in Wikipedia is nice, but it's not everything. This wiki doesn't exist to get into Wikipedia. Think of it as a really great indie band that the mainstream is ignoring. They're still great without the mainstream's favour. I like how we here are taking this stance against Wikipedia, and not trying to suck up like Lostpedia did (in a way, no offense to my second home).
Anyways, just my two cents/most likely meaningless advice. --Aero Zeppelin 03:40, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Do we place the comics in the "Next on Heroes" box?

Or do they manage to keep all info about it under wraps so that there would be nothing for us to write about them before they are released? Cuardin 15:24, 10 January 2007 (EST)

  • Unfortunately, that's generally how it works. The comics usually aren't even released on NBC.com until like 3AM on Tuesday morning (I'd check, but I'm lazy, but I think it's after the Hawaii broadcast). Someone somewhere knows what the next one will be, but they're tight-lipped. The only reason we get the blurb we do is that TV Guide publishes the blurb several weeks in advance. --Orne 15:29, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Spoiler warning on the 'Next on Heroes' infobox

I think it may be useful to add a -very- brief spoiler warning to the "Next on Heroes" infobox. Although this information does come from the widely-read TV Guide, some fans (like me) try hard to avoid exposure to information about future episodes before airdate. So, it may be appropriate to add a two word blurb like: "Warning: Spoilers" to the top line of the box. (If MediaWiki had a better tool for collapsible/expandable boxes, that would probably be best.) Thoughts? -- DTM 15:23, 18 January 2007 (EST)

Similar concerns have been raised on Template talk:Nextepisode. The Next on Heroes box has always included either the TV Guide listing or (during the break) information blurbs from the NBC site. Personally, I do not feel the information is too spoilerish, but then again I practically breathe this stuff. --Orne 16:01, 18 January 2007 (EST)
Well, I have mixed opinions on this. I've obviously gone back and forth on the idea, but ultimately took out the spoilers warning because I thought nobody cared. But I'm flip-flopping again, now that somebody else shares my opinion. I think the warning is unobtrusive, and good to have to possibly warn those that want to be warned, and also just for CYA. I'll swtich it now. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2007 (EST)
Speaking of spoilers, I now noticed that someone has placed info on the site that comes from the promos. SO I have two questions:
  • Are these to be cosiddered spoilers?
  • Are these promos to be considdered full canon? After many years following TV series I have learned that things in an ep can be changed up untill jus hours before broadcast. Not often, but it happens.
-- Cuardin 04:47, 20 January 2007 (EST)
They're not considered canon until they officially air. The info can be included with a proper spoiler warning, but should not be included in the main article space until it airs. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:37, 20 January 2007 (EST)

We really need edit-locks

As we now are a bunch of people regularly editing the articles, we need a way to lock articles so that two people don't edit the same article at the same time. There was just now an incident where I was working on expanding an article as Hardvice came in and did some (Much needed, I admit) spelling corrections. The problem is that meant i couldn't save the expanded parts of the article without some major manual hassle. Is there a way to fix this? -- Cuardin 11:27, 21 January 2007 (EST)

  • The way MediaWiki already does this is really the optimal way of handling concurrent editing. Any system that allows multiple people to edit an item inevitably runs into some sort of issue. Out of curiosity, when you edit an article do you make sure to use the Edit link for only the section that you're working on? If you use the page-level Edit function you're more likely to run into problems when editing a section. Using the section Edit links gives you section-level granularity which is less prone to conflicts. (Admin 11:31, 21 January 2007 (EST))
    • The aricle in question was very short, so it wa pretty much an all-or-nothing deal. Are you saying there is a way concurrent editing is handed at this time? -- Cuardin 11:33, 21 January 2007 (EST)
      • I meant a wiki ipso facto is a concurrently-edited system. The alternative to the way MediaWiki does it would be for a lock to be placed on an article/section once someone starts editing it. Of course if someone places a lock, how long does it last? With such a method anyone could pretty easily DoS an entire section, article, or potentially a whole wiki by continually requesting locks. Also if the locks expire in the middle of an edit then you'd be back in the same situation. This is why locks aren't extremely common in concurrent editing systems. In most systems the burden is placed on the latest editor to resolve any conflicts that their contributions make. I've run into conflicts before and usually it's not too difficult to just copy my contributions, refresh the version I'm working with, and then paste my contributions back in. (Admin 11:40, 21 January 2007 (EST))
        • It is true that real locks tend to be burdensome, but some sort of notification that omeone is allready editing the page might be in order. I believe MoinMoin has something like that. -- Cuardin 11:45, 21 January 2007 (EST)
      • Editing just a section is a great idea. There's a few other things you can do, too.
        1. If you scroll to the bottom of the page, you'll see the difference between your edits, and then you can cut and paste and put your edits back in. (Even just now, 2 other edits were done in the time it took me to write this post - I just went to the bottom, and cut & pasted.)
        2. In the case that you're describing, you can also override the previous edits, and then go back and restore them - i.e., make your edits, see the edit conflict, save yours over Hardvice's, and then go back and restore his spelling corrections. (This would only be best if the other edits are minor, like spelling corrections).
        3. Finally, if you're saving your work before you're finished, make a note of it in the edit summary (something like "saving work" or "still working"). This is not foolproof, but will generally alert other users that you're in the middle of a project, and we (hopefully) won't touch it until you're done.
Hope that helps! - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:47, 21 January 2007 (EST)
  • MediaWiki does have built-in editing conflict resolution. Even if you're editing the whole article, it will generally process multiple edits concurrently unless there's a direct conflict (i.e. two people edited the same text differently). Edit conflicts are actually kind of rare, and are fairly easy to resolve manually using cut-and-paste and the two versions displayed on the conflict screen.--Hardvice (talk) 12:58, 21 January 2007 (EST)

Official Wiki

I just noticed http://boards.nbc.com/nbc/wiki/index.php/Main_Page --Joshtek 17:38, 24 January 2007 (EST)

See Heroes_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#NBC's New HeroesWiki -- Cuardin 07:03, 25 January 2007 (EST)
Not that we are either, but I wouldn't call it an "official" website. :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:57, 25 January 2007 (EST)
I am, however, pleased to note that the bulk of their edits seem to consist of vandalism (and you've got to love the white-on-white diff page -- highlight it to read). They really need to pay better attention.--Hardvice (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Do you have a problem with white-on-white? — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:51, 3 February 2007 (EST)
NS + DLH 4 EVA--Interracial Kids Are Cuter (talk) 01:00, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Plus, I'm not so sure that's vandalism. I'm pretty sure it's from an upcoming episode. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:54, 3 February 2007 (EST)
I think Ryan's right. I think it's their emergency series finale in case the show ever gets cancelled without warning. ;) (Admin 00:56, 3 February 2007 (EST))

Alternate languages

I think the alternate languages should be near or above the Google translations (or Google translations as part of the alternate languages box?), then maybe they would be updated once in a while. Visitors may only see the Google translations and think there is nothing else. -Level 14:33, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Unwatch option in watclist?

I noticed my watchlist is getting a bit long and some of those articles aren't so interesting to follow any more. At the moment, in order to unwatch an article I have to go into the article and unwatch each one separately. Would it be possible to add a linkt o each article on the watchpage that allows one to unwatch that article? -- Cuardin 16:51, 8 February 2007 (EST)

If you go into your watchlist, there should be an edit option at the top to "Show and edit complete watchlist". Go there and check the ones you don't want to watch anymore. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:57, 8 February 2007 (EST)
Cool. Thanks. Just what I wanted. -- Cuardin 01:13, 9 February 2007 (EST)

Reverting edits and signature

How do you revert an edit? I've tried figuring this out, to no avail

and on a different note, I want to make my sig green, how do I do that? (Heroe) 22:58, 16 February 2007 (EST)

  • The revert function is restricted to sysops. The new "undo" is available to all users in the diff screens, and is similar to revert but only unwinds one step (revert removes all sequential edits by the last contributor). You can also always find the edit you wish to revert to in the history, click edit, and save, and it will revert.

    What's in your "nickname" field on Special:Preferences? Do you have "raw signatures" ticked or unticked?--Hardvice (talk) 23:05, 16 February 2007 (EST)

Ticked. All my sig says is 

([[User:Heroe|Heroe]])
  • Try 
    [[User:Heroe|<span style="color:green;">(Heroe)</span>]]
    . --Hardvice (talk) 23:41, 16 February 2007 (EST)
  • Thanks that worked See: Heroe 18:36, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Main Page layout suggestion

I was looking at wikipedia's home page and was I think the Heroes wiki Main Page might be improved if some of the sections were rearrnaged a little:

  • Move this week's episode summary into the top left where the welcome message is. (and maybe use a bigger thumb for the episode graphic)
  • Move the welcome message into top right where next week's tease is posted
  • Move next week's summary in the lower left where this week's summary is now

This would move an image 'above the fold/scroll' and also make it so the weekly summary is placed higher than the next week's summary. I've made a mockup on my user page. Anyways just a thought. :) --Frantik (Talk) 22:59, 23 February 2007 (EST)

  • That's quite nice...I agree--it's always bugged me a bit that the AOTW is so low, and the somewhat bland teaser is so prominent... I would actually switch your left and right columns so the welcome is on the left and the AOTW is on the right. For size consistency, that means the news would be on the left and the teaser on the right. Well done! — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:10, 23 February 2007 (EST)
    • I tried out your suggestion here.. the only problem with that format is the one side tends to run a lot longer.  :\ --Frantik (Talk) 23:22, 23 February 2007 (EST)
      • I for one like your first version better. The AOTW just looks crap in the right column ... it's too narrow, even at hi-res, and at 1024 it's a nightmare. Plus I think the welcome message looks fine on the right.--Hardvice (talk) 00:08, 24 February 2007 (EST)
        • Actually, I was suggesting that just the content switches, but the column widths stay the same. In other words, the AOTW and teaser should be on the right and take up 2/3 of the page width, and the welcome and news should be on the left and take up 1/3 of the page width. I think that would look a lot better. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:14, 24 February 2007 (EST)
          • Ok I changed the column widths but I have to say I like that even less. I think the wider column should definitely be between the two skinnier columns on the page (ie the left hand menu and the thin column in the page text) regardless of what text is in them. --Frantik (Talk) 00:39, 24 February 2007 (EST)
  • I personally prefer the Main Page as it is now, though it could use something relevant beneath News to fill in that empty space. (Admin 00:55, 24 February 2007 (EST))
    • I don't think the way we have it now is bad; I do wish the AOTW were more prominent. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:05, 24 February 2007 (EST)
      • I don't think it's bad, though it could be better :D I don't really care about the specific location of anything, though I agree the episode summary ought to have more prominence, and next week's tease should have less than this week's. I also think a graphic in the top row would spice up the page a little. --Frantik (Talk) 01:13, 24 February 2007 (EST)
    • You could move the fan sites under the news to fill up the space a little :) --Frantik (Talk) 15:14, 25 February 2007 (EST)

Fan Sites Section

Any reason there isn't an edit link on the Fan Sites section? -Zeckalpha 19:04, 24 February 2007 (EST)

  • Yes, so people aren't tempted to edit it. :) Only a limited number of sites go on the main page Fan Sites section and they're typically sites that work with me to link to Heroes Wiki prominently. (Admin 19:07, 24 February 2007 (EST))

Sunday's Early Canadian Run (Damage Control)

With Canada playing Company Man a day earlier (tonight in Canada), would it be worth considering to do a read-only lockdown of the entire heroeswiki until tomorrow night after the regular schedule show is aired? Can you even do this? I'm just concerned about over-zealous folks getting on tonight and during the day tomorrow, and adding all kinds of 'new stuff' that we won't get to see until tomorrow night. Just wondering if this is doable and a worthwhile idea...--HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 18:37, 25 February 2007 (EST)

  • Or just don't look at the site until after the show? Seriously though, perhaps for early airings editing should be restricted to the Spoilers sections -Zeckalpha 19:33, 25 February 2007 (EST)
    • We tend to not lock pages here except when absolutely necessary. I'll put a notice at the top of the site to discourage any early edits before the US airing. Any premature edits can just be reverted. (Admin 19:38, 25 February 2007 (EST))
      • Where in gods name are they showing it early here!! I have to know! If it is my local listings don't show it TELL ME! T E L L M E N O W ! ! !--WolvenSpectre 23:14, 25 February 2007 (EST)
        • I believe it aired on GlobalTV Sunday night. (Admin 00:54, 26 February 2007 (EST))
          • I checked from early in the afternoon to several hours from now in the Global listings, and no listing, however they had a double of both "King of the Hill" and "The Simpsons". This means they could have lost one of each and not messed up their schedule. The Global channel I get is basically the 'mothership' of the network because it is broadcast from its home base (although they have expanded allot into the Vancouver market because of all the productions out there).

            It wouldn't be the first time they made this type of a change and then didn't let the viewers or the people making listings until it was to late.

            Oh well, like most Canadians I get all of the Main 4 US channels as part of basic cable. I'll just watch on Monday on NBC.

            I also think that when we (for once) have the advantage of having an earlier broadcast, we should be able to post, but keep all the stuff in the spoilers section, and have it moved to its appropriate place after/during the US broadcast. Maybe a better thing would be to create a temporary (limbo) section. If you look at it the other way, then everything for people in countries with a later show date the whole wiki becomes a spoiler section and they would have to go and use the history tab to not see that. If you were just starting to use the wiki would you want to put up with having to do that?

            I can understand for spans of time of more than a couple of weeks you can't do anything, but for a day or two, I think you should change your warning to "Because of an earlier broadcast date in" whatever country or channel "there may be spoiler content on this page. If you wish to avoid this content please return when NBC broadcasts the episode:" name and number here. It would also be a good idea for a warning in case of a leaked episode on 'The Scene'.

            • Yeah, I was thinking earlier that we may need to discuss how we handle it in the future. This time around I think it's ok to say no info from the early airing until Heroes airs in the US, but we should figure out if that's the best way to go on doing it. While it may be possible to say that the episode page can be updated as long as it's marked with a spoiler tag it would create a double standard since character pages couldn't necessarily be updated (without potentially having spoilers). Personally, I just wish they showed the episode across the world on the same day, it would solve a lot of this. I'm not in favor of essentially "spoilering" the whole wiki just because a single station outside the US decides it wants to air Heroes a little early. While, yes, the wiki has always proven spoilerish to those in places where new episodes haven't aired, the wiki is still primarily targeted towards US audiences. The localized versions of Heroes Wiki have an advantage here in that they're free to only translate material up to the point where it's aired in their country, however for the English wiki the source of information is the US airing. For instance the air date for Company Man will be Monday, not Sunday even though it supposedly aired in Canada on Sunday. Of course if people in different countries where Heroes is way behind (perhaps the UK for instance) wanted their own localized wiki (even in English) and only wanted to move info from here pertaining to episodes that have aired, I'd have no problems setting up a wiki for them. (Admin 01:46, 26 February 2007 (EST))
              • I just hope that what happened to shows like Stargate SG-1 doesn't happen to Heroes. Stargate a show started by Americans and shot in Canada quickly became a very Canadian production, but like many spec-fic shows of the time got very poor support from the networks, even as it became popular. The company restructured or was bought by someone. The only way it could get the stability and funding it needed was to go exclusive. Soon a show that had more creative, environmental, and technical content from Canada than most of our top shows was blocked out of Canada. It took several years for us to start catching up, and then we couldn't see all of the early episodes either. If their was a SG-1Wiki back then I couldn't have used it even if I had a friend sending me tapes from the US because I'd be soooo behind.

                If this (knocking on every wood or wood based product) were to happen to Heroes here in the Great White North, I will take you up on that. (assuming I can)--WolvenSpectre 02:10, 26 February 2007 (EST)

                • I'm not positive, but I think something similar to what's happening with Heroes also happened for Lost. I remember Lostpedia having some site notice saying that Lost was airing early in a particular area (possibly Canada as well) and asked people not to post information on it until it aired in the US. In any event I hope this is just temporary and Global stops airing them early. (Admin 02:15, 26 February 2007 (EST))
  • Ooh looks like the internet got the episode early too :D :D Just a heads up for all those who don't want to wait till tonight ;) --Frantik (Talk) 04:08, 26 February 2007 (EST)
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