Talk:Neurocognitive deficit

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources	Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources	Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources	Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities	Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities	Descriptions
6. Possessor's name	If no non-speculative description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine neurocognitive deficit's name.
Source/Explanation
The term "neurocognitive deficit" is referred to in the Mozaic file (The Fix) and appears to match Anna's ability.

I'm sorry, but no.

"Lobotomize" was CLEARLY a description she gave, since she still doesn't quite understand what her power is. This page is pretty ridiculous (the most glaring bit being that a "lobotomy" is a specific type of surgery) --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:48, 24 December 2008 (EST)

• I don't agree with the split and it was not discussed on the mental manipulation page. See the discussion on Talk:Mental manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:49, 24 December 2008 (EST)
  • Kill it. Psilaq Remake 23:14, 24 December 2008 (EST)
    • If it's the split that's the issue, that's one thing. I understand somebody started a discussion in a place that may not be the most intuitive (Talk:Anna). However, it wasn't the "wrong" place to start a discussion, and doesn't negate the fact that we just don't know that Anna and the Haitian have the same power. There are a lot of things that fit, and a few that don't fit exactly. But until it's confirmed, we shouldn't assume.

      If it's the name of the ability that's an issue, that's another deal. Let's look at some other possibilities. Are there other options? Is there anything else from the iStory or Red Eye, Part 1 we can use to name the ability? Mohinder describes the ability as being able to disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought. (I'm borrowing from Miami's excellent summary at talk:mental manipulation.) "Sensory perception disorientation" seems both unwieldy and too narrow. Would something simpler like "disorientation" work? I think we have enough information that we don't need to simply say "Anna's ability". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:23, 25 December 2008 (EST)

      • At the absolute least the name is entirely wrong as she does not, in actuality, lobotomize anyone. She shuts down upper brain functions. On top of this, the description Mohinder gives sounds a lot like it can apply to mental manipulation just as easily. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 01:46, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • I think merging the abilities without pointing anyone there was 'wrong'. I don't see why the term 'mental manipulation' doesn't fit her. Based on Mohinder's description, manipulation minds appears to me to be what she does and I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise, just that we don't know for sure she has the Haitian's ability. I really think that should be irrelevant in naming her ability, but would we be able to compromise have the Haitian's ability be "mental manipulation (I)" and have hers be "mental manipulation (II)"? Isn't it clear that they are both forms of mental manipulation?

        Disorientation doesn't cut it as that doesn't really encompass all she can do. Mohinder's full quote:
        

        "[Anna] has a truly incredible ability to shut down the upper brain functions of those around her." "Her abilities have been known to affect and disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought."

        
        So she just doesn't disorient, she can presumably affect them in other ways.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:52, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • That's what Lobotomizing does so of course it would affect affect and disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought. Her ability is to shut down the upper brain functions. Mental manipulation can do much more than just shut down that part of the brain. Anna hasn't done anything else besides lobotomizing someone. Until she does something else it would be pure speculation that she has Mental manipulation that allows for much more to be done. --OutbackZack 02:00, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • You're right, Miami, the term "mental manipulation" does fit Anna's ability. But we're not matching terms, we're matching abilities. We just don't know that Anna and the Haitian have the same ability. "Mental manipulation" also fits for describing what Candice does and what Doyle does. I have absolutely no problem calling Anna's ability "mental manipulation"...but there is a big problem in listing her and the Haitian on the same page as having the same ability. It's speculative. I suppose doing a parenthetical note would work...but so long as we're using the term for one person, I really don't like the idea of using it for somebody else to describe what might be a different power. Isn't there another term we could use? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2008 (EST)
• Throwing my hat into the ring with these 2 cents; in It Takes a Village, Part 2, the Haitian does pretty much the same thing to his village when Guillame is beating him. He also is negating his father's ability, something Anna has not been shown to be able to do with her ability (I think Ricardo was able to use his ability whilst she was using hers, not sure on that). Take it for what you will. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • Anna didn't want to use her ability on Red Eye, as she feels sorry that he lost his family and doesn't want to harm him.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • • • • Why does the Haitian get priority for the term over Anna, then? Shouldn't it be the other way around? We know that the Haitian can affect minds turning them into zombies, turn people unconscious and erase their memories, and we know all that deals with the mind. We are also saying he can block other's powers by affecting other people's minds, and that's speculative. For all we know, the Haitian blocks powers by blocking a person's ability to produce adrenaline. However, on the other hand, we have Anna who has done nothing but affect other people's minds. If we must separate them, I think the Haitian should be removed and have Anna be mental manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • I strongly believe the name should stay. What Anna said about her ability is now cannon and should be taken into account with naming her ability. No different than what we did for Ability supercharging. Also the term isn't at all wrong. All you have to do is do a search and right away you discover if fits. Here's an example. --OutbackZack 02:17, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • Anna didn't outright name her own ability, she described it and so has Mohinder. Based on the descriptions, I favor Anna's ability as "mental manipulation". I like the term "neurocognitive deficit" as a narrower term for Anna's ability too. It was suggested previously for the Haitian's ability, but rejected due to speculation about how the ability blocking was performed. There is as-yet no such speculation in using the term to describe Anna's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:38, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • Merge it back to Mental manipulation, this is not even close. Although knowing how things around here work, I won't be suprised if this stays it's own page for a few weeks.--Piemanmoo (talk) 02:45, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • • • • • The term that she used to describe does indeed make for a proper name for her ability. Lobotomization is a real term that describes exactly what her ability does. Ability supercharging] is the the ability to supercharge other evolved human abilities, Appearance alteration is the ability ability to change one's appearance, Dream manipulation is the ability to manipulate dreams, Healing is the ability to heal others, Lie detection is the ability to detect lies. So it would make logical sense to to call Anna's ability Lobotomization because it's the ability to lobotomize others, and when you lobotomize someone you shut down the upper brain functions. --OutbackZack 02:51, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                  • Lobotomization is done by cutting the nerve's in a person's brain. We don't know if that's what she does. In fact, in chapter 3 of Operation Bad Blood, she had begun using her ability on the Pinehearst contractor but got stopped due to the eclipse and the player had no lasting brain damage. That suggests to me that it's likely not a simple cutting that her ability performs but instead some kind of biochemical reaction. However, we don't really know which it is meaning it's not really the best name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:59, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                    • But the term has also been use in other media (i.e. comics) resources to describe the same thing. --OutbackZack 03:01, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                      • Scientific references are normally preferred over comics ones when available; also a common misnomer is still a misnomer.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:07, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                        • What she said is a near cannon source and it ranks over coming up with a different term. Lobotomization is also scientific in itself. However, let's first worry about if we're going to keep this article or not. Then and only then should we worry about the name of the article. Because why worry about the name if the article may get deleted. --OutbackZack 03:10, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                          • An administrator, Ryan, already said he preferred not to recombine the articles, so I doubt that's going to happen though I would like it to. He asked us to consider a different name. "Lobotomization" wasn't explicitly used, it's a name you're taking from a description that doesn't seem to apply based on what has occurred. If we cannot agree on a name, this will become "Anna's ability" as descriptive names must be completely agreed upon in order to be used by Admin's instructions.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:20, 25 December 2008 (EST)
• In the example for a definition I provided it is stated to make (someone or something) abnormally tranquil or sluggish. Is that not what she has done?--OutbackZack 03:26, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • No, she is also capable of making a person unconscious, not just sluggish and while under the effects of her ability, Red Eye was able to make the Kill Squad express rage (not tranquility) and they didn't seem sluggish. She also claims to have had enhanced senses when she first used her ability (chapter 4, Operation Bad Blood). That is more in line with what the Haitian said about being able to read minds while erasing them, but not necessarily the exact same thing.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:41, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • Did not know some of that (said somewhere, note sure if here, that I'm not too familiar with the iStores). Alright then I agree with the name you came up with earlier. Good debate my friend. --OutbackZack 03:46, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • Thanks. I've updated it to neurocognitive deficit for now. I still think the Haitian's and Anna's abilities are the same, but this is a good second choice and the name comes from an episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:05, 25 December 2008 (EST)