Talk:Neurocognitive deficit

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources	Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources	Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources	Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities	Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities	Descriptions
6. Possessor's name	If no non-speculative description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine neurocognitive deficit's name.
Source/Explanation
The term "neurocognitive deficit" is referred to in the Mozaic file (The Fix) and appears to match Anna's ability.

I'm sorry, but no.

"Lobotomize" was CLEARLY a description she gave, since she still doesn't quite understand what her power is. This page is pretty ridiculous (the most glaring bit being that a "lobotomy" is a specific type of surgery) --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:48, 24 December 2008 (EST)

• I don't agree with the split and it was not discussed on the mental manipulation page. See the discussion on Talk:Mental manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:49, 24 December 2008 (EST)
  • Kill it. Psilaq Remake 23:14, 24 December 2008 (EST)
    • If it's the split that's the issue, that's one thing. I understand somebody started a discussion in a place that may not be the most intuitive (Talk:Anna). However, it wasn't the "wrong" place to start a discussion, and doesn't negate the fact that we just don't know that Anna and the Haitian have the same power. There are a lot of things that fit, and a few that don't fit exactly. But until it's confirmed, we shouldn't assume.

      If it's the name of the ability that's an issue, that's another deal. Let's look at some other possibilities. Are there other options? Is there anything else from the iStory or Red Eye, Part 1 we can use to name the ability? Mohinder describes the ability as being able to disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought. (I'm borrowing from Miami's excellent summary at talk:mental manipulation.) "Sensory perception disorientation" seems both unwieldy and too narrow. Would something simpler like "disorientation" work? I think we have enough information that we don't need to simply say "Anna's ability". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:23, 25 December 2008 (EST)

      • At the absolute least the name is entirely wrong as she does not, in actuality, lobotomize anyone. She shuts down upper brain functions. On top of this, the description Mohinder gives sounds a lot like it can apply to mental manipulation just as easily. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 01:46, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • I think merging the abilities without pointing anyone there was 'wrong'. I don't see why the term 'mental manipulation' doesn't fit her. Based on Mohinder's description, manipulation minds appears to me to be what she does and I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise, just that we don't know for sure she has the Haitian's ability. I really think that should be irrelevant in naming her ability, but would we be able to compromise have the Haitian's ability be "mental manipulation (I)" and have hers be "mental manipulation (II)"? Isn't it clear that they are both forms of mental manipulation?

        Disorientation doesn't cut it as that doesn't really encompass all she can do. Mohinder's full quote:
        

        "[Anna] has a truly incredible ability to shut down the upper brain functions of those around her." "Her abilities have been known to affect and disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought."

        
        So she just doesn't disorient, she can presumably affect them in other ways.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:52, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • That's what Lobotomizing does so of course it would affect affect and disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought. Her ability is to shut down the upper brain functions. Mental manipulation can do much more than just shut down that part of the brain. Anna hasn't done anything else besides lobotomizing someone. Until she does something else it would be pure speculation that she has Mental manipulation that allows for much more to be done. --OutbackZack 02:00, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • You're right, Miami, the term "mental manipulation" does fit Anna's ability. But we're not matching terms, we're matching abilities. We just don't know that Anna and the Haitian have the same ability. "Mental manipulation" also fits for describing what Candice does and what Doyle does. I have absolutely no problem calling Anna's ability "mental manipulation"...but there is a big problem in listing her and the Haitian on the same page as having the same ability. It's speculative. I suppose doing a parenthetical note would work...but so long as we're using the term for one person, I really don't like the idea of using it for somebody else to describe what might be a different power. Isn't there another term we could use? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2008 (EST)
• Throwing my hat into the ring with these 2 cents; in It Takes a Village, Part 2, the Haitian does pretty much the same thing to his village when Guillame is beating him. He also is negating his father's ability, something Anna has not been shown to be able to do with her ability (I think Ricardo was able to use his ability whilst she was using hers, not sure on that). Take it for what you will. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • Anna didn't want to use her ability on Red Eye, as she feels sorry that he lost his family and doesn't want to harm him.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • Why does the Haitian get priority for the term over Anna, then? Shouldn't it be the other way around? We know that the Haitian can affect minds turning them into zombies, turn people unconscious and erase their memories, and we know all that deals with the mind. We are also saying he can block other's powers by affecting other people's minds, and that's speculative. For all we know, the Haitian blocks powers by blocking a person's ability to produce adrenaline. However, on the other hand, we have Anna who has done nothing but affect other people's minds. If we must separate them, I think the Haitian should be removed and have Anna be mental manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • I strongly believe the name should stay. What Anna said about her ability is now cannon and should be taken into account with naming her ability. No different than what we did for Ability supercharging. Also the term isn't at all wrong. All you have to do is do a search and right away you discover if fits. Here's an example. --OutbackZack 02:17, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • Anna didn't outright name her own ability, she described it and so has Mohinder. Based on the descriptions, I favor Anna's ability as "mental manipulation". I like the term "neurocognitive deficit" as a narrower term for Anna's ability too. It was suggested previously for the Haitian's ability, but rejected due to speculation about how the ability blocking was performed. There is as-yet no such speculation in using the term to describe Anna's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:38, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • Merge it back to Mental manipulation, this is not even close. Although knowing how things around here work, I won't be suprised if this stays it's own page for a few weeks.--Piemanmoo (talk) 02:45, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • The term that she used to describe does indeed make for a proper name for her ability. Lobotomization is a real term that describes exactly what her ability does. Ability supercharging] is the the ability to supercharge other evolved human abilities, Appearance alteration is the ability ability to change one's appearance, Dream manipulation is the ability to manipulate dreams, Healing is the ability to heal others, Lie detection is the ability to detect lies. So it would make logical sense to to call Anna's ability Lobotomization because it's the ability to lobotomize others, and when you lobotomize someone you shut down the upper brain functions. --OutbackZack 02:51, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • Lobotomization is done by cutting the nerve's in a person's brain. We don't know if that's what she does. In fact, in chapter 3 of Operation Bad Blood, she had begun using her ability on the Pinehearst contractor but got stopped due to the eclipse and the player had no lasting brain damage. That suggests to me that it's likely not a simple cutting that her ability performs but instead some kind of biochemical reaction. However, we don't really know which it is meaning it's not really the best name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:59, 25 December 2008 (EST)
            • But the term has also been use in other media (i.e. comics) resources to describe the same thing. --OutbackZack 03:01, 25 December 2008 (EST)
              • Scientific references are normally preferred over comics ones when available; also a common misnomer is still a misnomer.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:07, 25 December 2008 (EST)
              • What she said is a near cannon source and it ranks over coming up with a different term. Lobotomization is also scientific in itself. However, let's first worry about if we're going to keep this article or not. Then and only then should we worry about the name of the article. Because why worry about the name if the article may get deleted. --OutbackZack 03:10, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                • An administrator, Ryan, already said he preferred not to recombine the articles, so I doubt that's going to happen though I would like it to. He asked us to consider a different name. "Lobotomization" wasn't explicitly used, it's a name you're taking from a description that doesn't seem to apply based on what has occurred. If we cannot agree on a name, this will become "Anna's ability" as descriptive names must be completely agreed upon in order to be used by Admin's instructions.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:20, 25 December 2008 (EST)
• In the example for a definition I provided it is stated to make (someone or something) abnormally tranquil or sluggish. Is that not what she has done?--OutbackZack 03:26, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • No, she is also capable of making a person unconscious, not just sluggish and while under the effects of her ability, Red Eye was able to make the Kill Squad express rage (not tranquility) and they didn't seem sluggish. She also claims to have had enhanced senses when she first used her ability (chapter 4, Operation Bad Blood). That is more in line with what the Haitian said about being able to read minds while erasing them, but not necessarily the exact same thing.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:41, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • Did not know some of that (said somewhere, note sure if here, that I'm not too familiar with the iStores). Alright then I agree with the name you came up with earlier. Good debate my friend. --OutbackZack 03:46, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • Thanks. I've updated it to neurocognitive deficit for now. I still think the Haitian's and Anna's abilities are the same, but this is a good second choice and the name comes from an episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:05, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • Yeah I saw that you said it was from The Fix, but I'm not recalling it. What point was the name shown?--OutbackZack 04:07, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • It's on the Mozaic File that Mohinder shows to Nathan.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:19, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • Woah! since when was 2 people enough to rename something? We got some "Name A kinda sorta can describe Power B, so we'll call this by Name A" logical leaps going on here that just don't seem right. I'm calling for consensus on this. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 13:58, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • You don't really need a consensus check since this is a descriptive name and one person disagreeing with the name is all it takes to go to Anna's ability if that's what you want. Lobotomization isn't necessarily accurate and doesn't encompass the ability based on what we know, and Ryan, an administrator has said he prefers not to use "mental manipulation". I suggested we use 'neurocognitive deficit' since it has been discussed before for the Haitian's ability and the person who was supporting lobotomization supported the move so that was all the consensus that was necessary. No other names had been suggested.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • User:Shadowulf1 13:46, 25 December 2008 (EST) Wasn't her power already defined as mental manipulation? even if she only has one aspect of it, which she doesn't, it would still be classified as such... right?
        • See above comments by Ryan--being Anna's base ability isn't enough. It would be like saying Rachel Mills has time-space manipulation instead of teleportation without seeing her travel through time first.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Consensus check and argument restaments

ok, just so we can clear things up from the above mess...--SacValleyDweller (talk) 14:04, 25 December 2008 (EST)

• Can we also clarify: Is this consensus to "change to neurocognitive deficit", since it was split from mental manipulation without consensus, or is this consensus to "merge to mental manipulation"? They seem to be in a dead heat, and which one we're debating makes a big difference. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:36, 26 December 2008 (EST)
  • Saying there is a dead heat is misleading. There is no dead heat as consensus does not work by voting. Also, mental manipulation isn't really an option as it is being considered speculative by Ryan and others (who posted on Talk:Anna) that Anna and the Haitian have the same ability due to her not blocking abilities. I disagree that that should exclude Anna and prefer mental manipulation, but without his agreement there cannot be consensus to move this ability back there. Thus, the options are really neurocognitive deficit, Anna's ability or something else. No one has yet suggested going back to Anna's ability and no one has suggested anything else.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2008 (EST)
  • I'm not planning on getting involved in this until I have a chance to catch up on the iStory (and it will probably be over by then), but I think this should be a special case. Since information was moved without reaching a consensus first, it seems to me this should be vote-based rather than needing a consensus to revert. This is, of course, up to the administrators, but since protocol was not followed initially, it seems unfair to follow it now, imho. --Stevehim 21:54, 26 December 2008 (EST)
    • Voting isn't ever used in determining ability names (if you want to ask for that to change, the best place to ask for a consensus to do so is on Help talk:Naming conventions). There have been prior name moves without consensus that the administrators have supported that either stayed or were changed to something else like the current situation. In this case, there was a consensus on Talk:Anna, including Ryan's opinion, to remove Anna's ability from mental manipulation but that was essentially forum shopping as no notice was made on any ability page that a move was being considered before the move occurred. After the move occurred to lobotomization, I asked for it to be moved back on the mental manipulation talk page and was directed instead to discuss it here. Ryan pointed out here that he didn't feel it was right for Anna's and the Haitian's ability to be named the same and asked for another name. Then, the person who had supported lobotomization and moved the page to that name agreed with me on moving it to "neurocognitive deficit" creating a new consensus so it was moved to the current name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2008 (EST)
      • I don't really want that change; I was just mistaken about what the history was. I didn't realize it was discussed at all before being moved, nor that an administrator was involved. My only point about a vote was that if something gets mvoed without discussion/consensus/administration approval, then the move should be considered void, even if it's not reverted. With that mindframe, I was suggesting that even though this is listed under neurocognitive deficit now, it really should have never been moved from mental manipulation in the first place, and so would not be fair to have to gain a consensus before reverting it back (as that sets a very dangerous precedent...we don't want people moving things and then taking a consensus to move them back, after all  ;)). I only saw the move made and your initial request to have it moved back (which, had there not been discussion on Anna's page, should have happened immediately), but since it was discussed and supported by an administator, it seems valid to me. Thus, I withdraw my suggestion about voting, and plead ignorance on this one.  ;) --Stevehim 23:26, 26 December 2008 (EST)
• Since I brought this up, the way this whole thing started with this ability always seemed a little fishy for two reasons. One, as mentioned before, no discussion was brought up at the proper place, Talk:Mental manipulation, to perform the split in the first place. It was only brought up at Talk:Anna. Still, I kinda liked the new "lobotomization" page as a whole, so I let it slide and marked everything patrolled. Then came the second reason I brought this up; the flawed logic in the rename from the straight forward naming of this page as "Lobotomization," a name based on Anna's description, to "Neurocognative deficit," based on the premise that said term from the, Genesis files (was it?), not seen since Season One, could describe Anna's ability. The term wasn't used anywhere near it during the iStory (reading from our transcripts of it), nor when Anna was describing it. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2008 (EST)
  • It's not that it could, SVD, but that neurocognitive deficit does describe Anna's ability as far as we have witnessed it (read the description), that this name has been discussed in prior conversation on the naming of the Haitian's ability, and that lobotomization doesn't fit Anna's ability as far as we know. The reason the Haitian doesn't use this name is due to speculation on the source of his power blocking, but since Anna hasn't been described as having that, we don't have to speculate about it and can use that name. As Ryan pointed out earlier in this discussion, Candice's and Matt's abilities could also be thought of as forms of mental manipulation, but as far as we know they don't have the same ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:56, 27 December 2008 (EST)
  • Based on that, and the fact that I just looked at the "discussion" on Anna's page, I have to agree, and repropose that this needs to be hammered out in a more detailed discussion rather than a consensus. It's extremely speculative to say her ability is neurocognitive deficit, and even moreso to somehow claim that's canon. The only reference I can see is the Mozaic file folder cover, which simply has that name scribbled across it. Unless I'm mistaken, nowhere is this associated with Anna, and nowhere is it even defined as an ability beyond name, so it's speculative to even say it applies to what she can do, as it may mean something else entirely. Further, the file itself is specifically about empathic mimicry, so for all we know the names on the cover are things that Chandra supposed could be mimicked, or things he thought possible and needed scratch paper for, or any number of other things. I can understand moving her ability off the mental manipulation page, and can even understand assigning it lobotomization with a 'description' canonical level, but claiming her ability was referenced in an episode is highly suspect, imo (I'd be surprised if they even knew Anna, or the iStories, existed, back when that was done).

Summing up...this ability should either be renamed to lobotomization with a descriptive canon level, renamed to Anna's ability, or kept here with the canon level being switched to descriptive (as it currently implies that we were told in an episode that this is what the ability is, which we weren't). In any of those cases, I feel this should be discussed and decided upon, sans consensus (otherwise, the debate is essentially over, since it's unlikely the minority is going to convince the majority to change their minds, making a consensus to change it near impossible to achieve). --Stevehim 00:44, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Please hold off Stevehim and read what I said above and read the prior conversation about the term on the Haitian's page. This is not something I dragged up out of the blue, this has been discussed before for the Haitian and the Mozaic file is not just about empathic mimicry. The term is an actual commonly used scientific term in the real world for when parts of the brain are impaired or shut down, which is what Anna does. So it's a common term that was used it the show and it applies to Anna's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:56, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Didn't imply

I didn't mean to imply that you brought it up out of the blue, or that I was planning on changing anything. I do see several problems though. First, if the Mozaic file is about other powers, then the description here is very misleading, and should probably be clarified. Second, I couldn't find the term 'neurocognitive deficit' anywhere on the Haitian's talk page. I'm guessing you're talking about the Amnegenesis discussion, which is interesting with regards to the science behind things, and I appreciate that in the real world the term might be used to aptly apply to Anna's ability, but we can't go by real world definitions (at least not in terms of canon). I also don't like the idea that we made a pretty big logical leap...

Anna impairs brain functions

neurocognitive deficit is a term used in the real world to describe impairment of brain functions

neurocognitive deficit was seen on a file folder

therefore it is canonical that Anna's ability is neurocognitive deficit.

Based on that, several other things are called into question (eg - the snake mimicry vs constriction debate, listing parapsychology as a/k/a under telepathy or, prior to Dual, listing it above telepathy since it appeared on two files, etc). My main objections are:

1. the level of canon we are assigning this is inaccurate, as it was never directly associated with Anna's ability. If we keep this name, it should be assigned level 4, and a Note about how the name appeared on the file should be added to the page.
2. once the ability was renamed to lobotomization, it should have required a consensus to change it, based on the naming convention rules. This didn't occur, so it's unfair to claim that one needs to happen now, imo (though, despite my apparent fervor, I don't really care that much  ;)).-- Stevehim 01:27, 27 December 2008 (EST)

• With the Mozaic file, Mohinder was showing Nathan a list of powers from his father's research that he thinks might exist to convince him of what he was saying. He wasn't claiming Peter had those abilities. Also, it isn't being claimed that it's canonical that Anna's ability is called neurocognitive deficit, just the the name is given in a canon source. Similarly, the reference for flight isn't claiming that that Nathan's ability is called flight. Flight is actually descriptive and common name for the ability that is derived from a canon source, an episode where Peter says he can fly. The power names template is meant only to show what level the source is, not the level of canonicity of the name. Finally, a second consensus did occur when everyone who voiced support for lobotomization voiced support to the new name. There were only a few people, so it was rather quick in forming. As Admin has said previously, a consensus check is not necessary to form consensus. In fact, imho, it only encourages there not to be one.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:54, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Merge back with Mental manipulation

1. was there any consensus to split it apart from MM in the first place? Why do we need one to correct it?--Piemanmoo 20:17, 25 December 2008 (EST)
2. There was no consensus to split it in the first place, and the description given by Mohinder fits the profile of Mental Manipulation. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:24, 25 December 2008 (EST)
3. If there wasn't a consensus before splitting the article, I say we merge it back before deciding on any further course of action. --Ciwey 21:42, 25 December 2008 (EST)
4. Psilaq Remake 21:50, 25 December 2008 (EST) No reason not to re-merge.
5. Same reasons as the people above. --Mike N. 18:39, 26 December 2008 (EST)
6. Yamawhata? 21:42, 26 December 2008 (EST) If nothing else, move MM to this one instead. I still think Neurocognitive Deficit provides not only a description, but a mechanism for the Haitian's power. I haven't yet seen any good reason to separate the two other than 'Anna has not wiped someone's memory.' That should be a good enough reason to split Knox's ability from enhanced strength - Knox hasn't used his ability without someone being afraid. Besides, we have plenty of examples of people with the same ability doing things that others can't, but we never disputed those, did we? If we're going to use a level 5 name (description) we made up, I don't think we can differentiate between two abilities which both fit our description - this manipulates the mind, so it is mental manipulation plain and simple. --Yamawhata? 02:42, 27 December 2008

Keep as Neurocognitive deficit

1. --NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 14:15, 25 December 2008 (EST)
2. --Max 15:58, 25 December 2008 (EST)
3. --laughingdevilboy 17:47, 25 December 2008 (EST)
4. --Dracomaster4 20:38, 25 December 2008 (EST)
5. --Litox 14:20, 26 December 2008 (EST)
6. --Henryp
7. --Witchy2006 15:52, 26 December 2008 (EST)
8. --Ikkian 17:19, 26 December 2008 (EST)

Keep as Lobotomization

#-- laughingdevilboy 16:16, 25 December 2008 (EST)

• Lobotomization isn't an option since it does not accurately encompass her ability based on what we know. Would you rather her ability be called just "Anna's ability"? That is the only other option at this time unless you suggest another.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:43, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • sorry I didn't realise, if that's the case I will add my name to Neurocognitive deficit --laughingdevilboy 17:47, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • The term itself is wrong, regardless of accuracy. A lobotomy is a specific type of surgery. This is not. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:24, 25 December 2008 (EST)