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Fan Creation talk:Women in Refrigerators

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  • Since we moved the men over here, I changed the "Heroes in Refrigerators" title to "Victimized Female Characters". That makes it consistent with the "Victimized Male Characters" heading as well as a bit more descriptive. --Ted C 12:50, 17 January 2007 (EST)


I'm beginning to think we're letting this list get too "long and loose" by including the names of anyone and everyone in the show who has something bad happen to them. I think the original WIR list was for characters who suffered long-term consequences of victimization. Simply getting punched or injured didn't qualify: they had to be killed, permanently maimed, scarred, traumatized, or otherwise affected in a way that would have consequences for years. I think we can de-list characters who just "got punched" or "got cut" if there's no sign of lasting damage. --Ted C 11:00, 9 February 2007 (EST)

  • Since the list is a fan creation and reference to an already existing list, there's no reason why we couldn't pare it down to fit whatever criteria the original list offers. The layout looks clean, but the content needs some trimming, I agree. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:11, 9 February 2007 (EST)
    • First pass complete. I'm tempted to try to cut this down to names that are or have been on the major/minor/recurring list. --Ted C 12:17, 9 February 2007 (EST)
      • I think you did a good job, and the page looks much better and is more in keeping with the original. The only one I might take issue with is Hana ... arguably, since it made her a revenge-obsessed psycho, the suicide attack díd have a lasting effect. Also, I just think it's notable that none of her male relatives died ... why her mother and grandmother, and not her mother and father?--Hardvice (talk) 13:37, 9 February 2007 (EST)
        • Went after those specific points in an updated version. --Ted C 13:48, 9 February 2007 (EST)
  • If not the characters who are victim to minor assault (like being punched in the face or whatever), can we at least gid rid of the ones who aren't even assaulted at all? I mean Sabine's listing says "tricked by the Company, lied to by Hartsdale duplicate, witnessed Julien Dumont's death". Really? She's a victim here? That's a little ridiculus. And come on, Zach's says "brainwashed by order of Mr. Bennet, teased by Jackie Wilcox". Ok, maybe the mental manipulation, but being teased by an annoying bitch doesn't really make someone a victim, does it? --ElleFanBoy 02:39, 14 May 2009 (EDT)
  • OK, I won't argue about the broken-nosed guard. I suppose he exists specifically to be example of Jessica's violent tendencies. --Ted C 14:06, 9 February 2007 (EST)
  • I take it back, I will argue about the guard. He is now the only un-named character on the whole page, and that bothers me. --Ted C 15:01, 16 February 2007 (EST)
    • Well, maybe that's part of the reason he's on the list: "Severely beaten by Jessica, has no name" ... poor guy. :) — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2007 (EST)
      • Unlike most of Jessica's other victims, though, he should make a full recovery. No name and relatively light damage; he just doesn't measure up like the other victims on the list. Hal and Micah aren't really an worse off, but at least they have names. --Ted C 16:17, 16 February 2007 (EST)

Women not on the list

Just a side list I thought I should add (maybe for future reference?):

It's amazing how skewed these lists are - and how many women on the list above are very very minor players. Hmm. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:29, 11 January 2007 (EST)

OK, I think we should separate the list into first-class refrigirator women, and the more fuzzy cases. Charlie is the prime example. She had absolutely no point except to die to Hiro could become a Real Man (I loved the arc, but I can't deny the sereotype it fulfills). Eden's stepmother just is a dead woman, but she doesn't nearly fulfill the criteria as well as Charlie and a few others. Cuardin 11:45, 12 January 2007 (EST)

  • OK, I wrote up a Men in Refrigerators page which shows how I see the * in Refrigerators phenomenon. Unless someone objects, I want to format this page in the same way. - Cuardin 13:01, 12 January 2007 (EST)
    • I believe when Gail Simone started her list, it was very much not to be a commentary or a judgment or anything, but just "an observation, draw your own conclusions". Obviously it has implications for our society. It's dangerous if we try to analyze, categorize, or somehow make judgments based on this list, especially in our wiki. I wouldn't separate the list (keeping in line with Gail Simone's original list) - I don't want to speak for Hardvice, but I'm sure he was just cataloguing similar instances, in essence adding to Simone's list. I'd just be careful if we try to interject our thoughts or judgments too much on the list. I think it stands as a pretty good testimony of - well, of whatever people want/need to make of it. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:23, 12 January 2007 (EST)
      • That's it exactly. I was trying to make the list as much like the original as possible.--Hardvice (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2007 (EST)
        • OK, I checked the link someone provided to what claims to be her original mission statement. Previously, I had only read the Wikipedia article about the WiR. You were right, I was wrong. The WiR is not in itself a political statement. This list, as well as the MiR list should, to follow suit, just be an account of every single person seriously hurt. Unfortunately, after having read her original statement, I feel I have to claim Gail to be somewhat of a chicken and her list to say very, very little. She could, and I think she should should, have been far more explicit. -- Cuardin 09:48, 14 January 2007 (EST)
          • It's tempting to want to editorialize the list, isn't it. I think part of its power is that there is no agenda attached. The list speaks for itself. Either way, it's created quite a discussion, hasn't it? - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:47, 14 January 2007 (EST)
          • Personally, I think it's admirable to merely observe the phenomenon and let people draw their own conclusions. For me personally, looking at the two lists here says volumes. How many men on the list are trivial characters who have only been seen dead? Why are all of Sylar's on-screen victims women? Why is Nathan's big tragedy that he has to watch helplessly while his wife is crippled? And bear in mind that I think Heroes is much less sexist than most shows. It just goes to show how far ingrained the "damsel in distress" model of storytelling is in our culture that most women's stories are about having things done to them and most men's stories are about doing things. I mean, look at Niki and Jessica: Niki, the "good" one, is a perpetual victim, but Jessica, the "bad" one, is a victimizer. Claire and Charlie are in constant need of saving and protecting, Simone's just a foil so far, and Eden died trying to play with the boys. No sign of an active heroine yet. I have high hopes for Hana; let's hope she just occasionally manages to kick a little ass.-- Hardvice (talk) 14:30, 14 January 2007 (EST)
          • Sexism cuts both ways. It can equally be said that our society just isn't as moved by male suffering. If a young woman suffers, it's a big deal, it's a tragedy. But if a young man suffers, that is just the breaks, shit happens, and sometimes people even feel disgusted because the character comes across as "wimpy". It's harder to make the audience care for a male's suffering. If you want the audience to care for a male dying, you need to develop the character much more. With a female it's easier and can be done in a few minutes (like with Charlie). I'm pretty leery of the sexism card myself. If you look hard enough, you can make any case. For instance, we could also say that Heroes is predisposed against males, because all the fathers in the show are depicted pretty negatively: Peter's dad was a manic-depressive and corrupt politician, Hal Sanders is a drunken murderer, Nathan Petrelli cheats on his wife, Chandra Suresh had harsh words for his son when he left his family to do crazy research in another country, according to spoilers Hiro's dad will be a major jerk, Eden's dad abandoned her, Mr. Bennet loves his family so much that he brainwashes them into zombies. The only good father is the ex-con, it seems? Renenarciso 08:05, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Comparing to Men in Refrigerators

I notice that the list of Men is specifically restricted to men who are victimized as part of another character's story arc. The Women's list is not so restricted, merely listing women who suffer as a "plot device". Is that intentional? The "patient zero" for this concept is the girlfriend of Green Lantern, who was victimized as part of his story arc. Many characters, male and female, become victims as part of their own story arcs, although the nature of their suffering may be unbalanced in some fashion. I'm just wondering if we're creating the illusion of more disparity than actually exists by limiting how we put people on these lists. Given the number of men who have died or been injured in the Niki/Jessica storyline and the fairly even distribution of victims in the Sylar storyline, I'm not sure I see significant sexual discrimination in the body count. --Ted C 16:20, 12 January 2007 (EST)

  • Incidentally, at the time I write this, the lists are approximately equal in length. --Ted C 16:23, 12 January 2007 (EST)
    • I agree that it's odd to say "part of another character's story arc" - it's unnecessary, unquantifiable, and probably untrue (if somebody is victimized, it's their own story arc, right?). I'll fix the wording. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:11, 12 January 2007 (EST)
      • I think it is certainly plausible to say that someone was harmed "as part of another character's story arc", the reasoning being that the event occurred as a demonstration of one character's villainous nature, or it occurred to force a change in behavior by a protagonist associated with the victim. In the Daredevil movie, for example, Elektra is a secondary character, and her death occurs for its signficance to Daredevil's character. Of course, the same could also be said of her father's death. --Ted C 17:46, 12 January 2007 (EST)
        • Yes, as a plot device, a character's sole purpose (or the death therof) may be completely to serve the purpose of a larger (read: more important) story arc. Who cares about the Walkers - they were only there to let the audience know more about Matt. But in the context of the show and our site, each character is equally important - that's why Matt gets his own page, as does James Walker - we treat them (generally) the same. Plus, Walker's death is still part of his own story arc, even if the reason behind its inclusion in the show was for a storytelling device to further Matt's arc. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:56, 12 January 2007 (EST)
  • From what I got out of the articles on this, it is characters who have died or been injured as a motivating personal tragedy, or to cement the hatred between the hero and the villain responsible. In most comics there are lots of male thugs that are beat up and few female, while females are often injured as a personal attack on a hero. These List are currently most of the characters who have been injured, and not those who were personal to a Hero. (that probably doesn't sound right but I can't think of a better way to put it) -Level 17:45, 12 January 2007 (EST)
    • It is interesting to note that men and women are victimized quite equally in the show. I guess that's what happens when you have a main villain who doesn't care if his vics are male or female, and an aggressive female bully. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:56, 12 January 2007 (EST)
      • Of course, there are a lot fewer women to begin with, and so far zero men have been subjected to sexual violence.--Hardvice (talk) 03:45, 14 January 2007 (EST)
    • If we want a list of all people injured or killed, I think we should not call it "Women in the Refrigerator", but something else. "Women in the Regrigerator" is a quite speciffic political concept.
      • The purpose of the article is to add to the list started by Gail Simone. Agree with the name or not, I don't think it's something we should change because it directly references her list, and is essentially an extension thereof. It's not my favorite name, either, but I'm not Gail Simone. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:20, 12 January 2007 (EST)


The list is probably a good commentary on how our society in general views the sexes. When something bad happens to a man, he's expected to endure it and come out stronger. When something bad happens to a woman, a man is expected to go to her rescue. Audiences react more strongly to victimization of women than victimization of men. You see this disparity play out in virtually all entertainment, not just comics and comic-related shows or movies. --Ted C 11:56, 12 January 2007 (EST)

Section Titles

  • I'm not sure everybody fits under a "victimized" section title. It's hard for me to swallow that, say, Brody or Tom McHenry are "victimized" when their own actions (rape and adultery) lead to a consequence in the same way that, say, Charlie or Lori Trammel is victimized when they are randomly murdered or date raped. However, I'm not sure there's a good way to distinguish this point without overly editorialising.--Hardvice (talk) 17:27, 17 January 2007 (EST)


I believe "Women in Refrigerators" is a theme. Women (and okay, yes, men) are victimized routinely throughout Heroes. If we called it "Victimization", it would be a theme. But we've taken Gail Simone's list and adopted her name for female victimization. This is certainly a recurring theme--not just in Heroes but comic book culture. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:39, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

  • I just took it down because although it's a theme in comic books, it isn't in television or real life (though victimization is). It doesn't make sense for something to be a fan creation and a theme at the same time.--Bob 01:45, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
    • To my mind, it's more a theme than a fan creation. Just because fans are observing the phenomenon doesn't mean they're authoring something. It's a "fan creation" only inasmuch as the producers aren't (hopefully) including the theme on purpose. It's really more a "fan observation".--Hardvice (talk) 03:03, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
      • Agree. I think it makes perfect sense for it be a fan creation and a recurring theme at the same time. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 06:30, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Minor characters

  • Something bugs me about removing so many of the minor characters: most of them were introduced for the explicit purpose of suffering some horrible fate. That seems almost worse than having the occasional bad thing happen to a more significant character: a character whose entire purpose is to play victim. Hmmm. From an editorial standpoint, I'm not sure how I feel about this, really. The article is kind of unwieldy, but the minor characters certainly seem to fit the the theme--sometimes better than the major ones.--Hardvice (talk) 16:20, 5 October 2007 (EDT)
    • Also, and unrelated, I find it humorous that things like "witnesses his sister's death" and "witnesses his wife's accident" are ways in which men are victimized.--Hardvice (talk) 16:42, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

Man not on the list

Could I just say about 1 man that is not on the list? Usutu was killed by Arthur Petrelli, so shouldn't he be on the list?

Yh and what about arthur.

Elle Bishop

I think Elle is the main example of sexual violence against men, or at least as close as there'll ever be. She is a sadist who objectifies men she's attracted to and torments them in a sexual manner. Her attraction to Peter involved treating him like her pet boyfriend, she explicitly said "he could be" a "toy", seemed to get off on electrifying him, and told him "You'll get used to it... and then you'll start to like it" with a seductive look. If you reversed the genders, making Elle a boy and Peter a girl, Elle the boy would seem so creepy and horrible. Think about it. She later tries a similar thing with Mohinder, going "He's adorable... Can I keep him?".

Besides Elle, though, I can't think of anything approaching sexual violence against men. I would argue that's more realistic, though. This isn't really the Women in Refrigerators trope, though, as Peter's suffering doesn't really go anywhere. It doesn't help her story arc, and is basically forgotten by season three. I imagine Elle Bishop should be a main subject in arguing about Heroes depicting violence against men, however. --Nogard 15:14, 3 November 2009 (EST)

Another dead woman

We have know since 6 main or reoccurring female characters die on heroes. Eden McCain, Elle Bishop, Niki Sanders, Daphne Millbrook, Candice Willmer and Lydia Strazzula. So the question has to be asked why so many when we have so few main female characters like Claire, Angela, Tracy and Gretchen? On the other hand, we have Peter, Sylar, Matt, Mohinder, Hiro, Ando and Noah as main male characters. --User:Blood69 8:53, 31 January 2009 (AEST)

  • Yes, you've mentioned that on several talk pages now. (Lydia's last name is unknown, though.) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:04, 30 January 2010 (EST)