Talk:Enhanced strength

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources	Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources	Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources	Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities	Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities	Descriptions
6. Possessor's name	If no non-speculative description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine enhanced strength's name.
Source/Explanation
Micah and Niki both explicitly refer this ability as "super strength" in Powerless.

Examples

• I don't think Niki broke the guard's baton in Godsend. I think Jessica took over briefly to keep from getting hit; her expression changed, and Niki didn't seem to understand how she ended up with a broken baton in her hands. They flipped back and forth rapidly in that episode, all apparently at Jessica's discretion. --Ted C 09:43, 23 January 2007 (EST)
  • I really am a bit frustrated that we're saying Niki broke the baton, since my viewing of the seen has Jessica breaking it and leaving Niki holding the pieces. Anyone else have an opinion on this? --Ted C 12:20, 23 January 2007 (EST)
    • I agree, but I get the impression we're a distinct minority. To me, it looks like Jessica's face when she grabs it, and Niki's face when she realizes it's broken.--Hardvice (talk) 12:22, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • I agree with both of you, actually. That was exactly what I assumed it was when I watched the episode. (Admin 12:30, 23 January 2007 (EST))
    • My impression exactly. I've basically toned down the language in the article without completely discounting the assertion that it was Niki. --Ted C 12:29, 23 January 2007 (EST)
    • The reason I was so convinced that it was Niki is that it seemed she was very surprised that she could do that and there was never that switch-to-Jessica moment. I watched that moment about eight times to make sure. As an actor, it looked looked like Ari was trying not to look too intense when she caught the baton. Finally, the only reason to include the scene is that it's a significant moment - Niki discovering her strength. --Fcphantom 13:42, 23 January 2007 (EST)
    • When watching, I saw what I considered to be a rather telling change in expression on Niki's face just before she grabbed the baton. Niki was simply surprised to find herself holding two pieces of baton instead of lying on the floor with a new bruise. I just don't seen any compelling evidence that Niki accessed the power. --Ted C 13:44, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • In any case, I'm fine with it being ambiguous, but I'd be willing to bet I'm right :-) --Fcphantom 13:52, 23 January 2007 (EST)
        • I'm always willing to be convinced by the evidence. --Ted C 14:10, 23 January 2007 (EST)
          • I might be putting my foot in my mouth if I'm proved wrong next week, but I really believe that it was Niki who broke the baton. It was Niki who was getting emotional, not Jessica - and Jessica has really only appeared to serve a purpose - breaking the baton seemed to be purely emotional, no purpose involved. Watching it again, it looks to me like Niki is only shocked that she was able to access the power, not that she blacked out for a moment. (Further, I think that Niki accessing her power would be a really good direction for her character, but that's neither here nor there.)

            That said, we obviously have some differing opinions, and the episode was not very clear. To say it's definitely Niki or Jessica is speculative, I guess. I like the language that's in the article space now. It's ambiguous in the caption, and it's clear in the example that we just don't know. I say we leave it at that until we learn that Niki is either Hulk Hogan or just a dud. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:09, 23 January 2007 (EST)

            • That's just where I wanted to go. I'm not dreadfully attached to my interpretation of the scene, but I think it's just as valid as the "Niki did it" interpretation, so the write-up needs to be ambiguous until we have more information. --Ted C 16:51, 23 January 2007 (EST)
            • I dunno, dude. Looks like a pretty Jessicaesque expression to me: --Hardvice (talk) 03:19, 24 January 2007 (EST)
              • I watched it again frame-by-frame. I think our problem stems from a bad edit from the shot where she grabs the baton (very Jessica-like expression, pictured above), to where she breaks the baton (more Niki-like). When she's holding the baton level and actually snapping it she looks more like Niki. --Fcphantom 11:16, 24 January 2007 (EST)
              • I doubt we'll get any confirmation of this particular incident. We'll just have to look to future episodes to see if Niki displays super strength again. --Ted C 11:26, 24 January 2007 (EST)
                • I read somewhere (it was an official source, too) that it was confirmed that Niki did infact manifest the power, although I'm not sure where... - Are you on the list? Kaiser 13:50, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                  • I happen to agree with you that it was Niki, not Jessica. Can you find that official source? The only official sources I know of are the episodes themselves and possibly the graphic novels. If somebody said it in an interview, it wouldn't necessarily be taken as "an official source", but should definitely be noted. But since I happen to personally agree with you on this ambiguous point, I'd love to read the comments made by somebody involved in production, or whereever you found the confirmation. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:05, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                  • It's Leonard Roberts and Jack Coleman in the video commentary. I'd say that it makes it probably true, but considering how little they tell these actors about what's really going on, you never can tell. Still not a canon source, though.--Hardvice (talk) 14:46, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                  • I'm going with Niki. Because there is no way Jessica would lose control over Niki that fast. If it was Jessica, then Niki appearing afterwards doesn't make sense from what we know of Jessica (at that time), Jessica would most likely attack the guard, and then maybe relinquish control of Niki. Dman dustin

Enhanced Toughness

As noted already, a certain amount of superhuman durability is inherently required to apply enhanced strength: if you're muscles can apply enough force to bend a steel bar, but your bones can't withstand that force, you'll break your own limbs. Jessica is obviously tough enough to withstand her own uses of her strength, but Fallout showed that her toughness extends to resisting certain kinds of attacks: when DL hit her hard in the body with the flat of a shovel blade, she got back up immediately, and neither she nor Niki showed any sign of injury. --Ted C 13:11, 13 December 2006 (EST)

I pulled the following example as a follow up to changing the Limits description.

• Jessica takes a hard blow to the belly from a swung shovel without apparent injury. (Fallout)

We can put it back if we get more evidence of superhuman toughness. --Ted C 15:30, 4 January 2007 (EST)

No, I think it's fine to leave it out. It doesn't really show her "strength", just her toughness. (PS - I've taken a shovel hit before and survived - and "enhanced strength" is not my superpower.) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:55, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Yes, but did you walk around afterward as if nothing happened? --Ted C 00:00, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Oh, sure - and I ran a marathon right after. Exhilarating! :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Enhanced Reflexes

I'm tempted to take out the "enhanced reflexes" note and move it to Theories, since there's no real evidence that Jessica has superhuman speed or reflexes. --Ted C 17:07, 14 December 2006 (EST)

• I'd say so, too. There's also a lot of discussion regarding consequential powers. Like Jessica needing enhanced durability because super strength requires she not injure herself or Nathan needing durability, too, to withstand supersonic flight. I think we'll find Nathan can be injured just as easily as someone else, but whether it's true or not is just a theory. I dont think we should speculate in the main articles on these consequential powers and just discuss their proven powers for the time being. (Admin 17:13, 14 December 2006 (EST))
  • Well, since I wrote the claims, I'll note that Jessica would injure her own arm trying to pull the door off a safe if her bones, joints, and muscles couldn't withstand the force. We also have the related evidence of DL smacking her with a shovel and doing nothing more than knock her down by sheer momentum. Enhanced reflexes aren't inherently required to use enhanced strength, and she hasn't done anything to demonstrate superior reflexes. --Ted C 17:39, 14 December 2006 (EST)
    • It's true that her super strength requires the durability as a natural consequence, but it's unclear currently whether it's a power that merits specific mention or whether we're expected to just suspend disbelief. If we accept the consequential powers then with the strength she has she might technically be able to stop bullets with her hand, but then she becomes virtually invulnerable and I suspect that wasn't their intention. My view is that as a result it's still speculation since they haven't addressed these consequential powers. How does everyone else feel? (Admin 17:50, 14 December 2006 (EST))
      • We have to remember that we're just giving a name to each power. The power Nathan has (which we have named "flight"), for instance, might be more than just the act of levitating and flying - there might be something inherently built in to help him resist injury while he's flying — but all that's speculation. We just call it what we call it, and make notes about it. We do know (based on what Mr. Bennet told Sylar) that Jessica only has one power. We call it "enhanced strength". But that doesn't mean her power can't include some other attributes along with being really strong. But again - speculation. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:22, 14 December 2006 (EST)
• I think I tossed in that note about the reflexes. I had tried to support it with evidence -- the fact being that she killed a room full of people within a very short period of time that Ando and Hiro were out of the money launderer's main room. The D.L./Jessica fights (particular the one at their house) also seemed to show Jessica "sped-up", she was moving pretty swiftly and caught D.L. quite off guard until he had time to react to what was happening. So, I don't think it's a theory, I think it's an observation. I'm not attached to this POV, though; I guess the line between theory and proof is thin -- Xanen 20:10, 14 December 2006 (EST)
  • I'm just not seeing that her reflexes are enhanced. She usually has the element of surprise, since people don't expect meek little Niki to suddenly rip their arms off. Furthermore, she's not afraid to use guns, which would help in the mass combats. If we see a real indication of superhuman reflexes, then I'm all for adding them in, but I haven't seen her do anything superhuman in that regard, yet. --Ted C 22:51, 14 December 2006 (EST)
    • The fact that Jessica killed a room full people in a short period of time is just because she moves fast and gets the job done. Jessica doesn't dilly daddle with her head in the clouds like "Oh whatever, I'll just take my time and enjoy killing them. And if I get caught then oh well." Jessica works in secret and when she has a goal, she strives to get it done, no questions asked and will take down anyone or anything that gets n her way. She simply has to move fast, especially in that situation, remember that at that time she had left in the middle of the night and had to be back quickly or D.L. would be suspicious. And with her superhuman strength, she can get things done quickly. Jessica isn't stupid. When she was battling D.L., she had to get it done fast because Micah was in the house and needed to leave quicky. As with the baton and the police officer, Jessica had to defend Niki and herself and she saw it coming and didn't want to get hit because it would hurt Niki when she was in control. I don't think they have superhuman reflexes. Elemental5293 18:03, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Niki and the Baton, round 17

• Looks like the writers think the question of Niki's super strength is unresolved. It's odd that the cast thinks otherwise, but it looks like we made the right call in leaving it open.--Hardvice (talk) 22:13, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Peter?

In Five Years Gone, when Peter was making his way towards the interrogation room, did he use super-strength on that one Homeland Security agent? I'm not exactly sure. DannyP 00:30, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

• Possibly. May have also been telekinesis. I don't remember if he even touched the guy or not. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
  • I just watched the scene and Peter was touching him. He grabbed him, spun around, and threw him against the wall. Peter probably did use enhanced strength. He is always around Niki, being his girlfriend.--Ice Vision 00:57, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
    • I think he used space-time manipulation, since that looked like a super-speed spin. Doesn't necessarily mean he didn't use enhanced strength, too, though. --Ted C 10:35, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
      • Space-time manipulation has never been used like that. Besides, the audio and visual cues would've been used if it were space-time manipulation. And the spin wasn't that fast. DannyP 20:21, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Would it be reasonable to conclude that Peter absorbed this power from Niki in How to Stop an Exploding Man (and then used it to pound Sylar a bit)? --Ted C 09:26, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

Unaired scene from The Hard Part

Did you guys see the unaired scene from The Hard Part where Jessica goes all ape-s••• on Linderman's archives? She pushes over a display, and D.L. gets into an argument with some dude. Crazy. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

How To Stop An Exploding Peter

• I swear that Peter was using enhanced strength while he was punching Sylar right after Niki totally PWNED Sylar with a parking meter. Jason Garrick 22:05, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

Image Request

Could someone please upload a clean image of Niki holding the parking meter? --Ted C 14:51, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Super Strength.

Canonical name stated by Micah in Powerless, wink wink nudge nudge say no more!--Riddler 00:26, 4 December 2007 (EST)

• Snap-snap, grin-grin, wink-wink, say no more?--Riddler 02:11, 4 December 2007 (EST)
• Enhanced and Super means the same thing. I don't think this one warrants such a major rehaul in the name. --Piemanmoo 02:17, 4 December 2007 (EST)
  • Hey, it's what they said. We have to go with the canonical source, according to the naming conventions, ala Lightning and Replication (which, by the way, means the same thing as Duplication WHICH is the common comic book name). The way I see it, we keep replication, we have to retitle this page.--Riddler 02:20, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • I concur for the these reasons, the other word being used by canon requires the change SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:23, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • Know what I mean, say no more!--Riddler 17:46, 4 December 2007 (EST)
        • If there is no primary-level (Episodic) reference to this power being Enhanced Strength, then the naming conventions of Heroes Wiki would require the name to be changed to Micah's primary-level (Episodic) name of Super Strength. Shouldn't be any arguements, if their is no primary-level quotations of E.H. (plus it sounds better and is a more mainstream description anyway.) --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/4/2007 17:57 (EST)
          • No complaints from me. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2007 (EST)
            • Remember that Micah is an 11 year old kid who stays at home and reads comic books... he would call it super strength. But Enhanced strength would make more sense for an older crowd. And they are the same thing so why are we even having this conversation?... we rename things too much--.Vault 20:30, 4 December 2007 (EST)
              • The minute we start placing judgments on our characters' knowledge base and ignoring things they say because they're "just a kid", we enter dangerous territory. We rightfully renamed photographic reflexes "muscle mimicry" based on Micah's comments, and if he reads comic books, I would take his word over most characters. But if they're the same thing, what does it matter that we rename it? Does it hurt anything to rename it? We rename things based on new information from the show--as the show progresses, so does our site. I'm certainly glad we renamed Mr. Bennet "Noah Bennet", and Betty "Candice Willmer", and muscle mimicry "adoptive muscle memory". If there's a serious concern with renaming articles, I'd like to hear it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2007 (EST)
• I beleive it been called just plain ol' "strength" many times in the show. --Hero!^(talk)_(contribs) 20:46, 4 December 2007 (EST)
  • Hiro called Charlie's power "Very Big Memory" in an episode. Should we change that one as well? --Piemanmoo 21:23, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • This is what I'm trying to get at. ;)--Riddler 21:25, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • I wouldn't be opposed to that. However, I think that was a joke from the writers. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:27, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Micah's power has always been called Talking to Machines, so wha about that one too? Where are we going to draw the line?--Piemanmoo 21:44, 4 December 2007 (EST)

• Where do you want to draw the line? It seems to me like you're trying to stir up controversy or contention. As far as I know, nobody has argued that the name of Micah's or Charlie's power should be changed. I feel as though you're searching for examples of problems in power names where there really are none. If you think a name should be changed, then by all means suggest it on the appropriate page. If there is general consensus, then it will be changed. If not, then it won't. It's really pretty simple. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:47, 4 December 2007 (EST)
  • I'm just trying to use these as examples. I don't think changing Charlie or Micah's powers for those reasons would make much sense. I'm just saying that the curret power naming conventions should be taken with a grain of salt. If we were to stick by the literal, by-the-books, 100% accurate, no interpretations version of the conventions, about half of the power names would be changed right now. I think if anything needs a rehaul, it's the naming conventions. It seems like they stir up more debates than they extinguish.--Piemanmoo 22:09, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • Put VERY well. My personal opinion is that using something out of someones speech, unless it is a direct naming of the power, shouldn't be used to decide the powers name. For example, I know that Liquefaction is on the brink of being changed because it was stated that they could "Melt things." That's like saying saying Technopathy is "Machine Talking" because Micah said he could talk to machines, yet we use Technopathy because it is the correct term. I agree very much with Pieman in that the conventions, though they may not be needed to change directly, they need to be amended.--Riddler 22:32, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • I disagree. People still come in suggesting "electrokinesis" and a bunch of other misnamed "-kinesis"es, and our naming conventions makes it very easy to say "no" when appropriate. Debate is not a bad thing, especially when it comes to the wiki. It helps people (including me, of course) think outside their own preconceived ideas of what something should be or look like. Discussion is the backbone of the wiki, and it sometimes takes the form of debate when people have wildly varying opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with renaming articles to be more in line with Heroes, and less bent towards fan opinions and speculation. I understand why you are using Micah and Charlie as examples. Playing Devil's Advocate can be a very good tool for making a point. But the most amount of negative debate in the above conversation seems to be coming from you, and that's not very helpful. If you have a suggestion for how to rehaul the naming conventions, I think I speak for the other administrators in saying that we're open to suggestions. That doesn't mean we won't have a counterargument, but we'll certainly listen to and consider whatever plan you present. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:30, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • It's a good point that Piemanmoo makes (even though it could use a little more tact :) ). I think technopathy is a much more appropriate term than "talking to machines" despite it being how Micah refers to his ability so we may need to try to find a set of guidelines where an obviously better term can take precedence. If not then we return to all power names being completely debatable despite their source (and the naming conventions become meaningless). This isn't something we need to solve immediately, but we should try to solve it soon. (Admin 22:33, 4 December 2007 (EST))
      • I certainly agree, it's not a perfect system, and I don't have a suggestion on how to handle names like technopathy where a descriptive name is clearly better than what Micah may have called it. Perhaps we should look at the context of the canon source, or see if the character was naming the power, referring to it with whatever words he could, or simply speaking about it conversationally. I don't know if there's a straightforward solution. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:45, 4 December 2007 (EST)
        • Yeah, I definitely don't think it's going to be cut and dry. Until the policy can be analyzed and adapted I definitely agree we should keep the existing names as they are rather than going with what at least I would consider to be poorer (albeit found in canonical sources) names. It sounds like we agree there's a flaw in the current convention strategy and I'm confident we can all put some effort into it and tweak it so that we end up with a deterministic process for identifying the official name of the ability here. Like everything else here, there's always room for improvement! :) Actual suggestions for changes to the policy should of course go on Help talk:naming conventions as I believe Ryan made reference to previously. (Admin 22:49, 4 December 2007 (EST))
        • Here's how I see it. Micah says that St. Joan is a "Muscle Mimic" in relation to Monica. Acceptable ability name. Then, Mohinder says to Monica (to my memory) "You're the first to show Adoptive Muscle Memory." The scientific name would take precedence. However, in other cases, Sylar says something to the effect of "I can freeze things." He's stating what he can do, rather than a name for the power, thus in this case I believe we should skip to level two (or further) in the naming conventions.

Summary: If the power is explicitly named, we go with that, with a scientific name taking precedence. If it's only mentioned as an adjective, we find the best description.--Riddler 22:55, 4 December 2007 (EST)

• It's going to be more complicated than that. If you're interested in discussing it, let's continue this on Help talk:naming conventions where it belongs. (Admin 23:04, 4 December 2007 (EST))
  • Uh, guys, I think you should call it super strength. In the comic book world, enhanced strength is used. Enhanced strength is merely above than average human strength while superhuman or just super strength is well beyond above and beyond average human strength. Look at it. Someone with enhanced strength would be able to deliver harder and stronger than normal blows and lift heavy objects to an extent, right. Someone with enhanced, that is above-average human or Olympic strength, should not be able to tear people in half and punch through people, pull a safe door off with their bare hands, break restraints that could hold down an elephant, bend steel bars, thorw and lift people off their feet as if they were rags and punch down or through thick doors. I think Micah just described it right. I think that if the show didn't have to worry about the cost of visual effects, Tim Kring probably would have had Niki and Jessica throwing cars, crushing and flattening solid objects with their fingers, and punching and running through brick walls. Same goes for Monica. There is no point in calling it adoptive muscle mimicry. Just take away the pointless adoptive. Or you can just call it photographic reflexes. You can either call Charlie's power, eidetic memory, superhuman memory, or photographic memory. That's where it doesn't matter. Elemental5293 17:44, 28 December 2007 (EST)
    • The reason Monica's power is called Adoptive muscle memory is because that name is used in Canon. Also see Help:Naming conventions#Power Names--Hero!^(talk)_(contribs) 17:50, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Rename

Since Knox's AT says that he has "enhanced strength," should we rename this to "enhanced strength?" The Company's terminology trumps Micah's comic book knowledge, No? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:55, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

• I agree. However, even Niki called it that. My thought is that Knox may not have the same ability as Niki, and should go under "enhanced strength" by itself, whereas Niki's ability stays as super strength. It appears that fear enhances Knox's strength, whereas Niki was just buff like that.--Bob (talk) 20:57, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
  • Mohinder called it super strength in The Second Coming.--Referos 18:43, 27 September 2008 (EDT)