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Talk:Precognitive dreaming
| Ability Naming Conventions | |
|---|---|
| The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order: | |
| Episodes | |
| 2. Near-canon Sources | Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions |
| 3. Secondary Sources | Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival |
| 4. Common names for abilities | Names from other works |
| 5. Descriptions of abilities | Descriptions |
| 6. Possessor's name | If no non-speculative description is possible |
| Source/Explanation | |
| Angela states she saw the future in a dream. Precognition is defined on this site as "foreseeing future events". | |
Distinction
Knowing what we now know about Angela's power, is it really a separate power from Precognition? It does the same thing, albeit with a bit less precision and in a different medium, but its still basically the power to predict the future. --Ted C 20:59, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- Still agree. My argument is down below. --Riddler 23:07, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- Isaac's precognition is through painting. This power manifests through dreams. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 23:29, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- They're still both Precognition, the only difference is how they see it. Like I said below, we don't have a separate article for Teleportation, and Manuel Garcia's version is different than Hiro's.
- It's also entirely possible that Angela's ability lets her see into the past. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 23:39, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- We haven't actually witnessed Angela having a dream of a past event, so that's pure speculation that could just as easily have applied to Isaac. After all, Isaac could apparently paint the present, since he finished his picture of Peter showing up in his studio just as Peter arrived there. --Ted C 14:40, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
- Same applies to Isaac. Though, in a technical sense, it was the future that he painted because it was Hiro's future, he did indeed paint the past. --Riddler 23:40, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I think they're differents powers, because Angela can move and interact with the dreams. Angela saw herself in the dream of Level 5, and Peter talk with Charles in how to stop a exploding man.
- What does that mean? She basically got a glimpse of the future, which is what Isaac's paintings always gave. --Ted C 14:40, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
- I think they're differents powers, because Angela can move and interact with the dreams. Angela saw herself in the dream of Level 5, and Peter talk with Charles in how to stop a exploding man.
- It's also entirely possible that Angela's ability lets her see into the past. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 23:39, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- They're still both Precognition, the only difference is how they see it. Like I said below, we don't have a separate article for Teleportation, and Manuel Garcia's version is different than Hiro's.
- Isaac's precognition is through painting. This power manifests through dreams. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 23:29, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I'm with Riddler on this. As he pointed out, are we going to start a new power page every time someone comes up with a new way to predict future events ("Precognitive painting", "Precognitive dreaming", "Precognitive ice sculpture", etc.)? The important element of this power is the foresight, not the format of its expression. --Ted C 14:40, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
- How come no one seems to want to discuss this? --Riddler 20:49, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
Peter's dreams
We should probably move the bulk of Peter's dreams to this page; in fact, we might even think about just making Peter's dreams into a redirect to this page. All we would really lose it the chronological history, which would be replaced by a pictorial history of examples with cites. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:15, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I second the redirect idea, but ask that the page not be deleted before it becomes a redirect so that the history can be preserved.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:19, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- If it's a redirect, it won't be deleted. The history remains intact. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:28, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
Charles Deveaux HTSAEM dream sequence
Should it be cited here? Since it was "past-tense" dreaming and not "future-tense" dreaming, should it effect the name of the power? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/23/2008 07:52 (EST)
Name
I'm hoping for "Premonition" for a few reasons. One, if this is precognitive dreaming then Issac's power should be called precognitive painting. Two, the two powers are different in that Issac and Usutu can create images with exact details, while Angela and Peter see things in symbolic ways. --Piemanmoo 11:19, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I'm torn. I like "premonition" because it hints that the vision isn't exact. I don't like it for two reasons though--anybody can have a premonition. I've always understood "premonition" to mean a feeling about something that is going to happen. But ultimately, it doesn't address the dreaming aspect (even Angela mentioned dreams). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:29, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- But shouldn't we also avoid a name that infers 'future-only', because of the past-tense dream sequence Peter had with Charles in HTSAEM? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/23/2008 12:20 (EST)
- Well we don't know if the interaction with Charles was due to Angela's ability or something else, possibly another ability held by charles. Who knows? --Piemanmoo 13:41, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I'm going to have to agree with pieman. We could just always change it to Spontaneous Premonitions. Jason Garrick 15:47, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- But this sounds like choosing to side with speculation. Charles doesn't have a confirmed power. Anything named or not named based on him having a power is speculative. At this point until prooven otherwise, we can only say that Peter and Angela have 'dream-cog' powers, therefore the past-visit to Charles was a result of Angela/or Peter 'dream-cog' not Charles. My point is because of that 'visit'; and because Charles doesn't have a confirmed power; we can't attibute anything to him; which leaves us with an example of Angela/Peter having a 'past 'dream-cog'; not a future one. "Precognitive" dreaming presumes dreaming of future events. If we dropped the 'pre'; and just called it 'Cognitive Dreaming' then we would remove the speculation that it can only be future-tense dreaming. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/23/2008 15:56 (EST)
- I personally think this should go under Precognition, because that's exactly what it is. Favoring one "precognition" over another would be ridiculous, so if this is to have it's own article, the other one should be "Precognitive Painting", as someone said before. Precognition is seeing future events; Angela as well as Isaac, Peter, and Sylar, saw future events. How they show it is just their personal detail. Similar to this is how we don't have a separate article for Teleportation, though Manuel Garcia's teleportation is different than Hiro's. Just my two cents though.--Riddler 20:32, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I'm fine with the current name as it shows what we know about the ability thus far. We don't know whether or not Charles had the same ability so we have to table that discussion for now. That said, I would rather just drop the pre- as HDS suggested than use premonition.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:37, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I personally think this should go under Precognition, because that's exactly what it is. Favoring one "precognition" over another would be ridiculous, so if this is to have it's own article, the other one should be "Precognitive Painting", as someone said before. Precognition is seeing future events; Angela as well as Isaac, Peter, and Sylar, saw future events. How they show it is just their personal detail. Similar to this is how we don't have a separate article for Teleportation, though Manuel Garcia's teleportation is different than Hiro's. Just my two cents though.--Riddler 20:32, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- I'm afraid there's one tiny flaw in that logic, HDS. Just because we dont know for 100% certain that charles has an ability, that doesn't mean that we can be safely sure that the dream was caused by angela's power. It could have been time travel or something entirely else for all we know. We shouldn't even look at the HTSAEM scene along with the rest of peter's dreams because we dont known exactly what caused it. Otherwise we're making a false assumption, namely that if charles didnt cause it, then the only possibility was that angela had to have. We dont know if it was Charles or Angela or Sanjog or Mr. Muggles that caused that dream sequence. So instead of picking the one that seems the most likely, we should just leave it apart from the other dreams. File:Emot-iiam.gif--Piemanmoo 03:04, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
- OK, I see your point. But even at that, 'Pre-Cognative dreaming' still assumes only a future direction. Why not be safe, and just call it 'Cognitive dreaming'? That way, if they do end up dreaming both ways in time in future epis; we don't have to go back and change alot of stuff; since all of this power's footprint right now is pretty small? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/24/2008 14:44 (EST)
- I don't know if you can just drop the "pre" and change the term to include past and present. I don't know if "cognitive" makes sense in the context of "cognitive dreaming". Although precognition isn't often used to describe events of the past, it is plausible that precognition does cover instances where you're finding out about an experience before you had a chance to experience it yourself (which since it's in the past wouldn't actually happen). In any event, I'd like to see an Assignment Tracker entry give us some resolution to this. (Admin 14:55, 24 September 2008 (EDT))
- Mr. Kring said in an interview: "But he's had dreams before, and they've had premonition qualities to them." Maybe we should just call it premonition until we have an in-universe reference to this power's name?--Referos 17:23, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
- Well, a description from Kring himself is about as canon as you can get, other than being named outright in the assignment tracker. If anyone still feels strongly enough for the other name, feel free to change it back. --Piemanmoo 00:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- An interview is not canon at all. See the help:naming conventions. In the secondary source we have, but he doesn't say that it's premonition, he said the dreams have premonition qualities. In other words, the fact that they're based on dreams should say something. However, Angela (in a canon-based source, an episode), said that she saw the future in a dream. Precognition, as defined by canon sources, is the ability to see into the future. This would lead me to say the name should be "Precognitive dreaming".--Bob (talk) 00:49, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Or simpler, "Precognition." Why isn't anybody acknowledging these arguments by me and Ted? You only further prove our arguments valid by using Precognition as your basis for naming this one.--Riddler 01:06, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- I think there is a difference. Peter wasn't off making paintings until he interacted with Isaac, but he had Angela's ability before meeting him. Angela states specifically that she dreams it, whereas Isaac's eyes cloud over and he paints it. Peter could not paint/draw the future until meeting Isaac. If they were the same, then Peter should have been able to do this prior to meeting Isaac. --Bob (talk) 01:09, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Different manifestations, same result. It's just two different ways of getting information about the future, and neither one gives much more than the other. I still think that we just need sub-headings under a single Precognition page. --Ted C 15:52, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Emphasis on my agreement, also a bump to get this discussion noticed.--Riddler 16:41, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Time travel is also a way of obtaining information about the future, but I'm pretty sure it's a different power. However, I think that if we are going to call Angela's ability as "precognitive dreaming", Isaac's power should definitely be renamed to "precognitive painting". Or, yes, we could group the two under an umbrella term.--Referos 16:44, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Emphasis on my agreement, also a bump to get this discussion noticed.--Riddler 16:41, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- This argument doesn't hold for much. Otherwise, telepathy and illusion are the same thing, and they're not. Healing has the same result as Claire or Adam's blood. The end result has no impact on the mechanisms of what the ability does. To say a bicycle and a car are the same is incorrect. They both get you to a destination, but in different ways. Precognition requires the medium of painting the future you saw. Precognitive dreaming does not require this. Precognition requires the user to open their eyes, which in turn clouds it over (this is based off the fact that ALL users of precognition have been alert and awake, and have opened their eyes). Precognitive dreaming is while one is asleep or unconscious. They're distinctively different. My opinion, this ability allows you to see a more figurative future, whereas precognition (such as when Isaac was seeing Claire getting chased, or when Sylar saw flashes of what was to come) allows you to literally see the future event, but the painting is the only inaccuracy. --Bob (talk) 20:49, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Since we have Kring's comment about premonitions and Angela's statement about dreams, why don't we call it "premonitory dreaming". I don't see why we must use "precognitive".--Referos 20:53, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Different manifestations, same result. It's just two different ways of getting information about the future, and neither one gives much more than the other. I still think that we just need sub-headings under a single Precognition page. --Ted C 15:52, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- I think there is a difference. Peter wasn't off making paintings until he interacted with Isaac, but he had Angela's ability before meeting him. Angela states specifically that she dreams it, whereas Isaac's eyes cloud over and he paints it. Peter could not paint/draw the future until meeting Isaac. If they were the same, then Peter should have been able to do this prior to meeting Isaac. --Bob (talk) 01:09, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Or simpler, "Precognition." Why isn't anybody acknowledging these arguments by me and Ted? You only further prove our arguments valid by using Precognition as your basis for naming this one.--Riddler 01:06, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- An interview is not canon at all. See the help:naming conventions. In the secondary source we have, but he doesn't say that it's premonition, he said the dreams have premonition qualities. In other words, the fact that they're based on dreams should say something. However, Angela (in a canon-based source, an episode), said that she saw the future in a dream. Precognition, as defined by canon sources, is the ability to see into the future. This would lead me to say the name should be "Precognitive dreaming".--Bob (talk) 00:49, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Well, a description from Kring himself is about as canon as you can get, other than being named outright in the assignment tracker. If anyone still feels strongly enough for the other name, feel free to change it back. --Piemanmoo 00:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
- Mr. Kring said in an interview: "But he's had dreams before, and they've had premonition qualities to them." Maybe we should just call it premonition until we have an in-universe reference to this power's name?--Referos 17:23, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
- I don't know if you can just drop the "pre" and change the term to include past and present. I don't know if "cognitive" makes sense in the context of "cognitive dreaming". Although precognition isn't often used to describe events of the past, it is plausible that precognition does cover instances where you're finding out about an experience before you had a chance to experience it yourself (which since it's in the past wouldn't actually happen). In any event, I'd like to see an Assignment Tracker entry give us some resolution to this. (Admin 14:55, 24 September 2008 (EDT))
- OK, I see your point. But even at that, 'Pre-Cognative dreaming' still assumes only a future direction. Why not be safe, and just call it 'Cognitive dreaming'? That way, if they do end up dreaming both ways in time in future epis; we don't have to go back and change alot of stuff; since all of this power's footprint right now is pretty small? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/24/2008 14:44 (EST)
- But this sounds like choosing to side with speculation. Charles doesn't have a confirmed power. Anything named or not named based on him having a power is speculative. At this point until prooven otherwise, we can only say that Peter and Angela have 'dream-cog' powers, therefore the past-visit to Charles was a result of Angela/or Peter 'dream-cog' not Charles. My point is because of that 'visit'; and because Charles doesn't have a confirmed power; we can't attibute anything to him; which leaves us with an example of Angela/Peter having a 'past 'dream-cog'; not a future one. "Precognitive" dreaming presumes dreaming of future events. If we dropped the 'pre'; and just called it 'Cognitive Dreaming' then we would remove the speculation that it can only be future-tense dreaming. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/23/2008 15:56 (EST)
- I'm going to have to agree with pieman. We could just always change it to Spontaneous Premonitions. Jason Garrick 15:47, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
User:Heroe/Precognitive dreaming
That is all. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 22:31, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
- Did you dream about this page or did you paint it? ;) --Piemanmoo 00:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
Final Scene of Volume 2
In (The Second Coming), Angela mentions that she dreamed Future Peter would come and what he'd do. Was the scene wherein she watches Nathan's shooting on TV and talking on the phone (presumably to the assailant) in actuality said dream?--Paronine 17:56, 25 September 2008 (EDT)