Talk:Susan Amman

Suzanne's last name

Is this what we decided her name is? I see "Suzanne Amman". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:04, 20 November 2007 (EST)

• To me, it looks like it could be either "Ammaw" or "Amman". The handwriting is not clear, but it does look like it could be a "w" as the last letter.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:10, 20 November 2007 (EST)
  • "Amman" is a much more common last name than "Ammaw". But it could be a number of things, so it worries me that we're saying it's Ammaw. I'd rather move the article to just "Suzanne" and put the last name in the notes since her last name is ultimately unknown. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:20, 20 November 2007 (EST)
    • Yeah, if we're not sure possibly best to make it "Suzanne" and add both last names as redirects. I'd like to get some more input before we move it, though, so I'll add a rename tag.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:13, 20 November 2007 (EST)
      • I've just never heard of "Ammaw", but I have heard of "Amman". However, I don't want to say it's one or the other, or that it's not one or the other if we don't know/can't read the writing. A rename tag is a good idea. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:16, 20 November 2007 (EST)
        • It definitely looked like "Ammaw" to me. Maybe you're just getting old. :) --Hero!^(talk)_(contribs) 20:18, 20 November 2007 (EST)
          • The name is in the episode, so if someone with HD can get a better closeup, we might be able to tell for sure.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:18, 20 November 2007 (EST)
            • I sharpened it a little, not much help (a little clearer but only a tad), but I did notice that the last letter matches the N's in Daniel, Linderman, Parkman, and Angela. I definitely think it's Amman.--Riddler 20:22, 20 November 2007 (EST)
              • So do I, but it's still not really perfectly clear, now, is it? I'd much rather see this page simply named "Suzanne" with the possible last names in the notes...that seems like a much better alternative than trying to figure out what the name really is, or having a bunch of zealous fans--yes, even us old farts--"decide" what it says. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:29, 20 November 2007 (EST)
                • Gramble isn't clear at all either (though I did make that call myself, I can sort of make out the letters myself) but people might argue it... same for Mendez... Would we do the same for them?--Riddler 20:30, 20 November 2007 (EST)
                  • I don't care about Carlos--I can read "Mendez" very clearly, so I'm personally fine with it as is. "Gramble" is less clear, but because it matches a name on the list, it seems confirmed to me ("Out of the mouth of two or more witnesses..."). If there were a person on the list or somewhere named "Suzy Ammaw" or "Sue Amman" or something even slightly resembling the name, then I'd make the leap of faith. But since it seems like a completely novel name, written in poor handwriting and viewed as very grainy even after an HD transfer, I'd say we shouldn't try to guess it. Let's just report what we know. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:36, 20 November 2007 (EST)
                    • The shot we have now is from HD. It isn't blurry because it's lacking resolution. It's blurry because it's moving. That frame was the least blurry. I'll see if I can grab any others where her name is clearer, but it's not likely possible.--Hardvice (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2007 (EST)
                    • Image:Sue who.jpg - I took shots from a few frames here. I'm about 90% sure it says Amman, which is more sure than I am of Suzanne (Suzette? Sue Ellen? Samantha?), but still far from confirmed.--Hardvice (talk) 22:55, 20 November 2007 (EST)

Any chance it could be 'Aswan'? Because that would make it match another name on the list (Abu Aswan, and it would make all three be consistent members of the list. (Assuming she is either the wife of Abu, or Abu is her nickname). --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/20/2007 23:14 (EST)

• While I can't be sure what it is, I'd say it's definitely not Aswan (unfortunately). The first two letters are definitely "Am", and it really looks like "Amman".--Hardvice (talk) 02:15, 21 November 2007 (EST)

Consensus Vote: Amman or Ammaw

We've all had time to now review closely her last name...let's do a consenus vote, is it 'Amman' and not 'Ammaw'? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/21/2007 08:33 (EST)
1) Vote for Amman

2) Vote for Ammaw

I really don't like the idea of a vote. A last name is not something that's decided by consensus. Her last name is one thing and one thing only, and no amount of voting is going to change that. It's not like a power name, which really is different than a person's name because powers don't necessarily have names, and certainly more than one name can describe the power (hence redirects). But the lady's name either is Amman or Ammaw or something else--even if we have a unanimous vote that it's one thing does not mean it's necessarily right. I'd rather move the article to something we can be pretty sure about, and then discuss the name in the notes, or at least present the facts in the notes. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:37, 21 November 2007 (EST)

• It's really simple, and shouldn't be a big deal. Just pick whichever name seems to be the most consensus, and keep it until something more clear in canon comes along and says our variation needs adjusting. Until then, we keep it, and wait. This should be similar to when we started with 'Candace'....which at first seemed to be the proper canon name, and then later, after more canon evidence pointed to 'Candice', we switched it. Keeping one of the two variations until a more concise one might come out, is better than removing the name altogether. At least with a name, people have something to reference the woman with in discussion. A note doesn't help with that. Heck, if the last letter is really the uncertain point, then rename her lastname to Amma* until more clarity comes around. Any form of the name, is better than no last name. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/21/2007 15:07 (EST)
  • I agree. Let's pick the most likely name, my vote is for Amman. The first name is actually more uncertain. Make the main article the most likely contender, put redirects on the secondary contenders, and put a note in the first paragraph of the article stating that the name is not certain (similar to what wikipedia does when the title of the article is incorrect because of the way the database formats title capitalization). --Jackdavinci 15:26, 22 November 2007 (EST)
  • Candice's name was unmistakably spelled "Candace" on the list. We weren't guessing at the spelling, we knew it. Right now we're guessing at it. I disagree that any form of the name is better. I think accuracy is better than having a name just for the sake of having a name or for the sake of referring to her in discussions. We don't know her name and we're discussing her just fine. I wouldn't mind redirects from all variants to the page, but I think it's really important to strive for accuracy over completeness. What's wrong with having just a first name, especially if all variants of the last name redirect to her? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:22, 21 November 2007 (EST)
    • We can't read Suzanne clearly either, by the way guys. We should just name her "Blonde of the twelve" or something, and mention in notes that her initials are S.A., but the name is illegible.--Riddler 15:35, 21 November 2007 (EST)
      • I'm not sure why she needs an article right now. We have no confirmed name, no name on the list, no power, or anything. I think anything that can be said about her at this point can be said on Group of twelve.--Hardvice (talk) 15:36, 21 November 2007 (EST)

AfD

• The article can't be named "Suzanne Ammaw" or even "Suzanne" since the source of the information is way too unclear to make either out with any certainty. We can wait until after tonight's episode, but if it's not clarified by then this article needs to be renamed to something generic like "Group of twelve female 1" like we do with Chandra's journal entries or deleted entirely until we have some accurate portion of her name to work with. Since the article doesn't really provide any useful information above and beyond what's on the Group of twelve article I'd suggest just deleting it until there's more information. (Admin 16:07, 26 November 2007 (EST))
  • I think that's probably the best solution. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:20, 26 November 2007 (EST)
  • I concur.--Bob (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2007 (EST)
  • Ditto. Incidentally, is it time we begin to formalize a cruft policy?--Hardvice (talk) 17:00, 26 November 2007 (EST)
    • I think that'd be a good idea. I think the previous mentioned suggestions would be good. I think two of the following:a photo, a direct mention in an episode (excluding captions from a photo), or a substantial contribution to the plot. So McSorley's son would be fine, but not McSorley. Pratt has been mentioned by name by Nathan, and Matt noted it on the photo, so that's an actual mention with context from the note made by Matt, whereas Suzanne is never mentioned outside of a caption on the photo.--Bob (talk) 17:25, 26 November 2007 (EST)
    • I'd love to see a guideline we can follow for determining what's cruft and not. Hopefully we can examine some of the discussions about cruftiness that took place in the past and use those to help articulate where the line is. It's going to take some work to craft properly because it's actually pretty tricky in some instances (which will become more apparent as it's being developed). (Admin 17:35, 26 November 2007 (EST))
      • I like what Bob said above. I would also add that if there's an actor attached to a role, no matter how small, we keep the article. So curandera's daughter and chanting monk (II) can stay, in my opinion. This is not really a guideline, but I always ask myself the question, "Can this be summed up in a note somewhere?" -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:45, 26 November 2007 (EST)
        • I believe this article should stay, somewhere. That is an interesting statement, however. There was an actress (we don't yet know who) who stood in for the photo of Sue Ellen Aswanaw.--Tim Thomason 00:19, 27 November 2007 (EST) Nevermind, I guess. It's been deleted.--Tim Thomason 00:58, 27 November 2007 (EST)
    • The problem I have with deleting the article is that this character would be the only one of the group of twelve not to have an article.--Shoreline83 20:59, 28 November 2007 (EST)
      • She's also the only entirely new character who hasn't made an appearance. Find an actress, and I'll be behind this article 100%. Find any bit of information that can't be said on group of twelve and I will support resurrecting this article. But until then, there's nothing that says we have to have an individual article for everybody listed in the group of twelve. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2007 (EST)

Lock

Is there any way to delete this - and then lock it? Every time I see it, I think "oh, is it that time of the month again?" --DocM 12:37, 27 April 2008 (EDT)

• Heh. Yes, it can be locked, though only an administrator can do that.--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:38, 27 April 2008 (EDT)
  • I don't think we necessarily have to lock it. However, I think that until there's any evidence that her name is Suzanne Ammaw, then one of the admin's can automatically delete it without discussion. Does anyone agree with this?--Bob (talk) 14:33, 27 April 2008 (EDT)
    • Other wiki sites have policies (unwritten and written) that once an article is deleted, if it's recreated later on with no new evidence or information, it is automatically deleted without discussion. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:32, 27 April 2008 (EDT)

Suzanne?

• Why the name change to Suzanne? Based on the CBR interview where it is asked if her name is "Susan Ammaw" the writers corrected only the last name. Also the last letter in the sticky appears to be an "n" as well (I think it's clearer if you compare it to the final "n" in Amman). Though looking at say the Charles Deveaux sticky I don't put as much weight on the spelling on the sticky. (Admin 00:14, 1 October 2008 (EDT))
  • Yes, Susan is a nickname for Suzanne so the writers are not going to correct that, and the fact that they said "yes" and made a correction is a contradiction in and of itself. To me, the sticky clearly looks like it says Suzanne, and definitely not Susan (which is too short). And since we assign more weight to in-story content than interviews I'm suggesting we either remove the first name entirely to avoid the issue or use the full name as we did with the rest of the Company's founders.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
    • To me it frankly doesn't look like either Susan or Suzanne, but if you look at some of the other names we definitely know (like Charles Deveaux) they don't look right either, so I don't know what's going on with it. I wouldn't fixate on the "and yes", it sounds like one of them suggesting "Amman" and then the other confirmed it. Regardless, it's not critical. As far as the in-story content, I agree except that in this particular instance the in-story content is very unclear so there's no definite name we can assign that greater weight to. Based on the way the question was phrased and answered, I'm personally comfortable in using the name Susan Amman unless/until we see a definite difference. (Admin 00:43, 1 October 2008 (EDT))
      • It's definitely not critical as the character is long-since deceased, but that's also the main reason I want to make sure the name is right. Anyways, I want to see what other people think so I'll leave the rename tag for now. "Susan" wasn't being considered for use here until it became asked in the interview.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:23, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
        • The name is "Susan" at least that's what i thought to see -- Futurepeter 12:33, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

Trace image

Image:Sue who.jpg

Image:Amman sticky trace.jpg

Ok, above right is a trace drawing of what I see. I know it's not clear, so I understand if you disagree. This is just to better explain my viewpoint.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:01, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

• Matt also misspelled Charles's last name. Keep that in mind. Susan isn't a nickname of Suzanne, they're like Katelyn, Kaitlyn, and Caitlin. They're different spellings of the same name. Sue would be a nickname. In any case, the writers, though some might interpret it as them only agreeing to Amman, they would have corrected if it WASN'T Susan.--Riddler 14:38, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
  • With a lack of other info., we normally go with what we were given in an episode. If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time BTE gave us a half answer, and we normally don't assume the whole thing is correct like we've done in this case. By the way, Suzanne is a nickname of Susan, at least according to Wikipedia, whose source is Behindthename.com.--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:55, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Unfortunately, we're not given anything clear in the episode. This could have been Ammaw if we didn't get a confirmation from BTE. It's just not legible enough to take that swing, and the safest bet is to go with BTE.--Riddler 15:10, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
      • The only other alternative I see is "Ms." or "Mrs." like Mr. Linderman before we learned his name, problem there being we don't know what she was.--Riddler 15:18, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
        • "Ms." is used when it is unknown whether a person is married. "S." is also a possibility, but I would prefer "Ms." to avoid confusion.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:20, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
          • The last letter in the name is most definately an "N", so it never could be suzanne, it's Susan in my opinion. -- Futurepeter 15:23, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Please don't post just what you think is the last letter, post all of what you read... can you tell there are two N's there? If so, look closely and I'm sure you can make out an E that kind of looks like the Greek epsilon.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:28, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
    • "Is her name Susan Ammaw?" -> "I believe it’s Amman. And yes. Amman." They answered the question and corrected it. The "And yes" must be directed to Susan because it couldn't be directed to Ammaw because that was wrong. - Cael 15:42, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Already saw that quote and replied why I disagree with that argument. See above header.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Image:Notmatching.jpg

The last letter looks like an 'N'. The spot where you see two 'N's does not match. The spot where you see 'UZ' could also be a line connecting the 'S' to the second letter where you see the 'Z'. - Cael 19:40, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

• I don't think this one really matters too much. We have an unclear blow up of an extreme close up of messy handwriting which gave us other names, but we just couldn't decipher this one. We also have a somewhat ambiguous response from a couple of writers. If this were a major character, it might be a different situation. But I don't think the exact spelling of this character, given the circumstances, is really critical. I would leave well enough alone at this point, otherwise we start arguing the authenticity of the writers' responses and begin calling in handwriting analysts and making jumps on our own. I think we can all agree the handwriting is not very clear (though we have different opinions of what it says) and that BTE was ambiguous (though we have different ways of reading into what they said or didn't say). Let's just make sure that both versions of the name redirect here and be grateful that we even got a confirmation of her last name. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:09, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Cael, my trace was not exact cause I manually drew it in MS Paintbrush, so your overlay proves nothing to me. Lets agree to disagree on this one, and follow Ryan's advice to put this to rest for now. When the Heroes video game is released, we might be debating this once again (see prior discussion to find out what I mean). On a slightly related note, I've added redirects for "Suzanne" and "Susan" to point to Sue (disambig).--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

Images

I've deleted the images on this page regarding Susan since they are not needed anymore and were only used here. They've been marked for deletion since Nov. 2008.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:10, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

Portrayer

Looks like Loretta Swit from Mash to me. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 03/31/2010 10:58 (EST)

• They do look really alike, but something tells me that if she were portrayed by Loretta Swit, there'd have been more of a thing mentioned by producers etc, since after all, she was and still is, quite famous. Did anyone ever ask any of the Heroes crew who portrayed the "unknown"s of the company founders? --mc_hammark 12:03, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
  • Eyes are a dead giveaway, look at the distance between them. Not Loretta Swit. --Ricard Desi 12:06, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
    • I agree with Ricard. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:44, 31 March 2010 (EDT)