Talk:Puppet master

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources	Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources	Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources	Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities	Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities	Descriptions
6. Possessor's name	If no non-speculative description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine puppet master's name.
Source/Explanation
Named explicitly in Eric Doyle's Assignment Tracker 2.0.

Name

I vote for puppetry or some derivation of puppetry. They all but screamed it at us in the last scene. --Pyramidhead 00:48, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

• True, but just puppetry might not be specific enough.--Aburu 00:51, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps body manipulation or movement control--Watchmaker 01:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

• "Muscle manipulation""?--Matchu 01:04, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Might sound weird, but I think that might be too specific. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I think that just controlling someone's muscles would allow you to bend their arms. Wouldn't you need to control their bones and nerves as well?--Aburu 01:07, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I think body puppetry is specific enough and it's general enough to allow him to control activation of another person's ability (which muscle manipulation and movement control don't necessarily allow). We should get confirmation of that if he activates Meredith ability in the next episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:50, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • ...you don't use your bones or nerves to move your body. Bones are for structural support and nerves are for sensory input. Muscle manipulation is thus an effective name, but I feel puppetry both cleanly describes the action (as someone controlling a marionette) and how Eric Doyle himself sees it. Ricard Desi 10:15, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
• I can confirm that Eric's ability is Mind control,though no one is going to believe me. He control's the person's mind though not effecting their thoughts nor emotions. It's similar to telepathy though Eric controls the brain's body reponses rather than thoughts. If you check my older edits on Eric Doyle you`ll find that i called him the puppetmaster several weeks ago. His ability is not body manipulation as he does not control the body nor movement. He stimulates the brain in order to achive control. MOST IMPORTANT: With his ability to control the mind's bodily reponses he's able to activate one's ability and this has been confirmed within the Graphic Novel when he had a confrontation with Michael.--ACDC1989 06:25, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • ACDC, you're speaking as an authority on the subject. Where are you getting your information? Please be specific. Thanks! -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 06:42, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Hey Ryan. Well my cousin gave me a few snippets of information on the subject. I know that's not specific but it's very true. Ryan remember when Eric used his ability on Michael? He activated it. As i said above Eric does not control the muscle or nerve etc. He controls their mind which is how he was able to activate his ability. I implore you to make it Mind control as it is. It's almost as if he becomes one with his opponent, in terms of mind collaboration. He ability is one of force. It all happens within the brain. Also it should not be named puppetry as, although he is a puppet collector and nicknamed the Puppetmaster, the mere activation of Michael's ability contradicts it. His ability of mind control literally seizes control of the minds (though not like telepathy) of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control so that they become puppets or slaves to Eric. He's similar to the likes of Professor X or even the Mad Hatter in terms of comic connections. --ACDC1989 07:35, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • As what Wikipedia says: "Mind control is a broad range of psychological tactics able to subvert an individual's control of his own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions. The concept is closely related to hypnosis[citation needed][dubious – discuss], but differs in practical approach". This pretty much sums it up, i vote for Mind Control. --Futurepeter 11:19, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• Hey Futurepeter. Thanks for agreeing. As i said above while descrbing Eric's ability "His ability of mind control literally seizes control of the minds (though not like telepathy) of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control so that they become puppets or slaves to Eric." However the definiton you provided is not correct to Eric's entirely as it supports Matt and Maury's advanced telepathy more than Eric's mind control as you stated in terms of the practical approach. Eric's ability is indeed Mind control.--ACDC1989 12:21, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • "Mind control" makes the most sense to me. I don't think it would hurt to wait until next week to rename it, though. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:58, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I agree too that "mind control" is probably the best description and is the common name of the ability. Hopefully we'll get an assignment tracker to support that. However, I think the second option of body puppetry remains intact since he's a puppet master. Was there anything on Doyle's profile that Meredith was holding?--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:17, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Fingerprints. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:20, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• Hey, Ryan. Always a pleasure to see your posts. Indeed, as i said above, Mind Control would be the most prefered title as he is basically controling the mind though not emotions or thoughts as i said above. Apart from that the name is very common hence it won't cause a massive amount of confusion. Thanks.--ACDC1989 15:11, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I don't have a problem with Mind Control, but why does forcing Michael to activate his ability discount Puppetry? Only reason I like Puppetry a little more than Mind Control is because it seems Eric has to pantomime the motions of his victim (puppet) to use his ability. GabrielPetrelli 16:18, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Yeah, that's also part of why I'm leaning more towards body puppetry right now, but the main reason is cause his puppetry is mentioned on screen, and the terminology "mind control" is not.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:27, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Agreed. Also, I wasn't suggesting just plain Puppetry, but perhaps a variation like you and the OP suggested. Also, I don't see much of a difference between *controlling someone's brain's control over their muscle response* and *controlling someone's muscles*. The latter suggests the ability to override the messages sent by the target's brain to their own body.GabrielPetrelli 16:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Well, accessing an ability is more likely the direct responsibility of the brain rather than the muscles. Even so, I can see "body puppetry" encompassing ability control as well. I added the word "body" to denote that it's not simple puppetry but is control over a person's body.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:39, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Noted on both counts. I like Body Puppetry. GabrielPetrelli 16:42, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
            • I like Body Puppetry as well. To me it seems that if Eric's ability was truly "Mind Control" then Meredith would not have been able to speak, and nor would Claire in the promo. The victims are still apparently able to think for themselves. --Aburu 19:17, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• I dislike "mind control" as it implies total psychological control of the target, not just physical. In the scene with Meredith, it looks to me as though she is aware of what Eric is doing to her, and attempting to stop it, but is unable to. It seems to me that Eric's ability can control the brain's impulses to move muscles, but not the psychological/emotional parts of the brain which would constitute total "mind control." DismantleRepair 20:38, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• They're a little wordy, but we could try Neurological Manipulation or Neurological Control, which seem to fit all the descriptions here but still leave things open to a degree of interpretation. Thoughts? ~~ Darmenos 21:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • To me that seems way too vague because that seems to say that the Haitian's ability and Matt's ability could fit under here too if you use Neurological Manipulation or Neurological Control --Rayhond 22:47, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I think that some form of puppetry will be the best way to describe this since Doyle has to move in order to physically move the individual, but the person's body moves the same way Doyle's hands/body does. In the GN Doyle, he utilizes Michael's ability against himself, so this has to be included somehow, but I think ultimately, we're going to find out a lot more next week.--Bob (talk) 22:49, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Yes, I suppose it's a bit too vague. I say we leave it as is 'till next week's episode, since the trailer shows a situation involving him. Darmenos 22:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• Clearly you didn't read my previous posts. Eric controls the mind but not in the way Matt, Peter or Maury control it. It is not neurological manipulation/control as that would mean he could control the paths of the brain the way Matt, Peter and Maury can. In many of the comics i have read those with Mind Control don't have to control thoughts, i know a few who only control physical actions. It's all to do with the mind. ASK YOURSELF THIS: If it's Puppetry how on earth did Eric activate Michael's ability? That is not puppetry. Controlling abilities start within the brain, hence Sylar examining brains, so he controlled that part partially.--ACDC1989 06:00, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• Where's the evidence though? --Matchu 06:01, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• The evidence lies in logic. Have you read X-Men comics? If it is puppetry Eric could only control physical movements. BUT he activated Michael's ability which suggests that he had mind control in order to know how to use it. How can you use an ability if you only have physical control? There is a part of the brain that controls movement hence Mind control... --ACDC1989 06:04, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • • Logic isn't evidence. It's logical that Michael shouldn't be hurt by his own powers (see Meredith, Ted etc etc) but the poor guy is. Nor is looking at other comics; yes Heroes is certainly influenced by them but by no means is it working to the same rules. Mind Control implies too much, such as the effected person wouldn't be able to speak. Another note being we, the viewer/reader, don't really know how powers work. Sylar thinks it's all to do with the brain, whilst Mohinder's looking in adrenalin.--Matchu 06:09, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• I seriously think you've not listed to what i've just said. Starting with your last comment. Mohinder belives that abilities start within the blood/adrenal glands but you control them with your higher brain function. I can't explain why Michael is not immune to his ability or that Elle is not immune to certain of her offensive attacks. Mind control doesn't imply much, telepathy implies much. Mind control implies the control minds of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control. --ACDC1989 06:13, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I could accuse you of the same *shrugs* "Mind Control implies too much, such as the effected person wouldn't be able to speak.". We still don't know enough about abilities to comment fully on how they're activated except to say both adrenalin and the brain play a part.
• "...the effected person wouldn't be able to speak." Where on earth did you get this from? Assumption no doubt.--ACDC1989 06:18, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Your argument is an assumption that Eric would have mental control over the other person. If we accept you're right, then stopping someone from speaking would surely be as easy as activating their ability, since both things lie in the brain. --Matchu 06:20, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• Mind control to some degree, yes. You can't just activate someone's ability without looking into their mind. Ask me how did Peter, when in Ireland, did not know how to use his abilities? He forgot them, hence the mind and brain! Bingo! Jackpot! Explain that. How do you know Eric didn't want to control her from speaking? Perhaps he just wished to control her appendages? --ACDC1989 06:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Because when she did speak, he shut her up? --Matchu 06:26, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• Yes but Eric Doyle has obvious got some psychological issues. Perhaps he wanted her to be curtious and abiding?--ACDC1989 07:01, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • LOL, now we're just getting into more speculation! :) --Matchu 07:04, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• Note: According to the NBC blurb for the next episode, Doyle's ability is to "take mental and physical control of others." Chrisyu357 08:33, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

I think they should change the definition of his ability to being able to make others replicate his movements which is a more accurate,based on what we've seen so far, definition of his power.(Joe Tebbutt)

• This one is pretty hard to call. He certainly didn't seem to be controlling Meredith's thoughts, only her actions, so I might lean toward something like Body Control. On the other hand, there's definitely a puppet theme going on with this guy, so we might end up with something like Puppetry via a canon reference. --Ted C 14:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• The problem with naming this powers is that every name we consider ends up being an umbrella term that leaves things open for speculation, when we're capable of finding a name that's not an umbrella term, we'll have his power, if not, I guess we wait for the assignment tracker. As far as I can see, Puppetry is the most accurate name, even if it's not very scientific. The best I can come up with is Induced mimicry. Intuitive Empath 14:39, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I've been liking "puppetry" more and more...but I think it'd be a good idea to wait another week to name it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:51, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Agreed and agreed. (Admin 14:54, 15 October 2008 (EDT))
• Chris stated above: "According to the NBC blurb for the next episode, Doyle's ability is to take mental and physical control of others." I told you. It's not just physical control, he controls part of the brain as well! Hence it should be classed as Mind control. Puppetry is a bad choice in my opinion because it's vague When you think of a puppet you think of bodily control not mental. Mind control is better suited. --ACDC1989 11:03, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
  • You're arguing that "Puppetry" ignores the mental control aspect of his power. "Mind Control" seemingly ignores the physical control aspect. Body/Mind Puppetry anyone? GabrielPetrelli 11:24, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Another note: So far, we haven't seen any sign of Eric being able to control one's thoughts. That's why the "mind" portion seems weak. I'm giving the NBC blurb the benefit of the doubt when it mentions both, until we know the canonical name. GabrielPetrelli 11:27, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Reflecting on it more (the Mind Control spell in World of Warcraft, for example), Mind Control could very well be the name they officially use in the show later on. Since we'll know a lot more about his power after this Monday, I'd just wait until then to make any decisions. We'll have to see how they take into account: the "puppet"-like requirement of his ability, and the fact that the victims keep control of their *thoughts* (if not actions). Should be an interesting episode. GabrielPetrelli 11:37, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Body puppetry seems like the best suited name for what this ability appears to be. but like many have said, we still do not know exactly how it works or what it controls, i.e. the body or the mind, because it could perfectly be that Eric controls the body's actions via the target's mind, and it looks like that's the most logical way of using this ability; something like Mind Control could even be the official name, yes. Anyhow, the name should reflect what I see as 2 sides of the ability: the user's mind and the target's body... something like Body Telepathy or Telepathyc Puppetry (I like the latter, by the way). Opinions on this? --Elchafa 12:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
      • As I said above, one possibility is Induced mimicry, it's not that speculative, and as far as we know, it's fairly accurate. Intuitive Empath 18:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
        • ACDC- I hope this doesn't sound rude, but the ability WILL NOT be listed as Mind Control unless thats what they say in a canon source. The term just does not do a good job of describing this ability as we have seen it so far. And I'm sorry, but your cousin isnt a good source. Hes speculating like the rest of us. I'm putting my vote in for Puppetry and have a good feeling in the next episode they will probably even blatantly call it this. --Action Figure 14:21, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
• Intriguing. Action Figure i don't mean to be rude but have you read what NBC published for the synopsis for the upcoming Heroes episode? "...Meanwhile, Claire and her mother Sandra attempt to free Meredith from the thrall of escaped Villain Doyle, who has the ability to take mental and physical control of others. He controls the mind as well as the body. His ability is to control the part of the mind which causes physical movement with regard to the muscles. Hence Mind control is the best and most suitable name. --ACDC1989 15:40, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  • NBC's blurbs can be inaccurate, and they're written by an NBC staffer, not from the Heroes staff. So it's not a source to use at all. As I said before, right now, it's important to get an accurate name, so let's wait for the next episode. Hell, it's been almost a year since we've seen Alejandro's ability, and we haven't found a suitable, accurate name for it that isn't speculative.--Bob (talk) 15:49, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
• Thanks, Bob. I agree but i personally don't think Alejandro had an ability. He has achieved the same things Sylar and Mohinder did. --ACDC1989 16:03, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  • The CBR interviews with Aron Coleite and Joe Pokaski confirmed that Alejandro did have an ability (forget specifically which week). That doesn't really belong here though. The point I was making is that accuracy is what's important, so we can wait a week. After next week, we should find out more about it (hopefully we'll here an on-air description or get an AT 2.0 tracker on him online that will give us a specific name.--Bob (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

• I want to bring attention back to Puppetry. It's a simple name, but it's perfectly descriptive of what it is. They don't necessarily have to move how he moves, he specifically controls each part of them, like a puppet. The abilities are a null point, as a Puppeteer can control every aspect of his puppet (for special things they could add a button or an extra string.) He turned Sandra around by spinning his finger, can snap lips shut, and generally controls the person like a puppet, so if not "Puppetry", "Body control/Manipulation", but the former is far more appropriate.--Riddler 22:48, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I personally like puppetry as well. It seems to me to be the effect they were going for. (Admin 10:36, 21 October 2008 (EDT))
• As an effort to disprove "Mind Control", note that when Doyle forces Claire to close her mouth, he does not prevent her, mentally, from trying to speak. She is very clearly struggling against it and trying to force words out. Try yelling without opening your mouth. If it was mind control, he could simply force her to not speak. Every action Doyle performed was strictly physical, and "mind control" is FAR too vague a description, even if he has forced someone to use their ability (it could be as simple as strongly tensing up Michael's fingers, causing a discharge). "Puppetry" (moreso than "Induced Mimicry", as Doyle is not forced to perform an action to have someone mimic it) describes perfectly what Doyle does. Ricard Desi 10:23, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Induced Mimicry doesn't imply Eric has to perform the actions of others, what it does imply is that Eric induces other people to mimic his actions. Intuitive Empath 12:05, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Exactly. I worded it poorly, but what I was getting at is that while sometimes he moves his own body and has someone else mimic the motion (eating in the last scene in Angels and Monsters, for example), he does not necessarily have to move to make someone else move. Ricard Desi 12:44, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I think the ability should be changed to Human Puppetry. It seems more of a total discrption of what he can do. Or even Physical Puppetry. All that is certian is that puppetry should be in the title somewhere.

Same as Persuasion

Isn't this ability the same as persuasion? Only more enhanced so that he doesn't have to speak? I hope that in the next episode this can be sorted out a bit furture... Would prevent us from creating double articles. Another supporting fact. In the Graphic novel:Doyle they also make a reference to Eden. Out of all the characters they bring up Eden. In the story he hears about Eden's death, and some how he feels sorry. mmmmhhhhhh maybe because they shared the same ability? --DarthYotho 16:48, October 15, 2008

• I considered that possibility, but I figured the idea of trying to lump them together at this point wouldn't go well given past attempts. So I'm personally content to wait at least until next week where we see more of him or hopefully are given an assignment tracker. I wouldn't be surprised if his tracker said "Persuasion" personally. (Admin 16:51, 15 October 2008 (EDT))
• I wouldn't like his ability to be listed as Persuasion, that's Eden's power, and it works on a different way, anyone else noticed the trend of new powers that achieve the same results and effects as old powers, but through different means? Intuitive Empath 18:19, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Suggesting - Mental Domination

i think mental domination rather than control or manipulation. it seems as if he dominates their mental faculties thereby wresting control from the target/victim. shown in the fact that Meredith was able to 'talk smack' but could take no physical actions against Eric.

Image

Hello my fellow peeps of the Heroes Wiki, just wanted to let you know I changed the image to something that is more informative on the ability TheEvilNoob 14:16, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

• I'm going to revert it for the following reasons: first, it's from a GN, whereas we've seen it demonstrated in an episode; it's not the standard size; we'll have a better image on Monday when we see him use it more.--Bob (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  • But the other one is just him and Meredith kissing TheEvilNoob 14:20, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
    • There's a lot of other good images to choose from at Category:Images from Angels and Monsters. I like the one of them kissing, but the one of Meredith where you can see Doyle's hand is also nice. The one of Doyle closing Meredith's mouth by "pinching" his fingers is also nice, though it's a bit of a different direction we'd be going in. Though I do think the kissing image is the coolest. Bob is right, though, if we wait two or three more days, we'll get a different image, I'm sure. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:23, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Oh I get it, dang you guys are right then TheEvilNoob 14:51, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Quick Observation

Any else notice the similarity between Eric's ability and one mentioned on the map as an "N/A". The map says "Subject is able to manipulate the nervous system, causing major pain and also has the ability to take bodily control of one or more people." We haven't seen Eric cause 'major pain'... but this ability sounds very similar to Eric's. Can we derive a name from this or is it just a little too obscure? Seb.gwirionyn 23:08, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Assignment tracker

Looks like Eric's assignment tracker should be out soon. A password beginning with ED was in the latest graphic novel.--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:24, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

• It's taking quite some time for the assignment tracker to come out don't you think? Intuitive Empath 17:31, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
  • That happens sometimes. The tracker isn't always ready at the time the password comes out. We've had to wait a few days sometimes.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Puppet Master... oh my.

I may vomit.--Riddler 00:47, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

• My thoughts exactly. I can see why your first reaction was to undo the change :P --Aburu 00:48, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
  • how about a slight change to "Puppet Mastery", so it describes the ability and not the person with the ability? Ehsteve23 03:35, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I changed it back to the way it was because the discussion wasn't over. We should first come up with a proper name and then change it. -- Futurepeter 05:44, 22 October 2008 (EDT)