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Talk:Saving Charlie

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Revision as of 18:57, 21 August 2008 by imported>Ryangibsonstewart (→Canonicity revisited)
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You might want to throw an External Links section on this page to back up the plot section, and I'd say it's about ready to go into the main pages. Looks very nice. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:39, 30 August 2007 (EDT)

  • I've been wanting this page for so long! :) Thank you, DocM! --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 20:23, 31 August 2007 (EDT)
    • I also call claim to the Heroesclix. I claimed it, no-one else can claim it! I'm watching you all! I can seeeeee yoooouuuuu! --DocM 20:30, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Novel template; new namespace?

There's a "Graphic Novel:" namespace, which allows the graphic novel sidebars to appear long or short, depending on which namespace they're in. Should there be a "Novel:" namespace, into which this page could be moved, to allow the same thing? --Psiphiorg 13:50, 10 November 2007 (EST)

  • Is there any reason to believe at the moment that there's going to be more than one novel?--Hardvice (talk) 14:06, 10 November 2007 (EST)
    • If the first book sells well, you can be certain that there will be more. Besides, nearly every science fiction/fantasy show that's lasted more than one season has had multiple novels published during their runs: Buffy, Smallville, Lost, Battlestar Galactica 2005, Roswell, Supernatural, and of course, Star Trek. I can't imagine that Heroes would be any different.
      On the other hand, you do have a point that no decision about future books has been announced yet, so perhaps it would be better to wait until the publisher has a chance to look over the sales figures before assuming there definitely will be more books. --Psiphiorg 19:04, 10 November 2007 (EST)
      • I agree completely. Heroes novels are almost inevitable. Once we get an announcement that more are coming, I'd say then would be the time to worry about setting up a separate namespace & category. Till then, this article is probably best left in Category:Promotions.--Hardvice (talk) 20:07, 10 November 2007 (EST)

Canonicity

So what level of canon should this be? I'm thinking near canon. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 21:37, 13 December 2007 (EST)

  • It won't come out until after Christmas, so I haven't read it yet. But I think you're probably right--it'll probably be on the same level as Heroes Evolutions. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:53, 13 December 2007 (EST)
  • Yeah, the writers are working together with the author. I really mad it is coming out of the 26th and not earlier... hahaJason Garrick 22:27, 13 December 2007 (EST)
    • So ask for a gift certificate to [insert bookstore of your choice] for Christmas.  :-) --Psiphiorg 04:20, 15 December 2007 (EST)
    • I noticed Jason Garrick added some content from this on James Walker, so I figured it should be revisited. I don't think content from Saving Charlie should be included in character history since it is not from a canon source. It's not written by the writing staff, and shouldn't belong. But by all means, a plot summary should be put on this page.--Bob (talk) 16:05, 7 January 2008 (EST)
      • I got this book last saturday from the library and have just started on it. But from what little I've read I tend to agree with you, Bob. It appears as though the author consulted with the writers/producers from the show, but she didn't let them vet the final product. There are at least a couple differences from the show's storyline that have already been mentioned and that I now agree with (that they are actual differences).--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:20, 7 January 2008 (EST)
      • Not only should a summary be added to this page, brief mentions of notable events should probably be included in the Notes sections of appropriate pages, much like we did with deleted scenes from the Season One DVD. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2008 (EST)
        • The reason I put stuff for James is because he is not a major character so I didn't think it would hurt. I think SAving charlie is canon though. Jeph Loeb made the story but Aury wrote it. It was supervised with the writers so I don't see why it isn't canon. I stopped reading it but I started again. I got like 30 pages left. I start on a summary ASAP. Jason Garrick 17:00, 8 January 2008 (EST)
          • See Help:Sources#Canon. "For Heroes, the only official canon source is actual broadcast episodes. Any information that does not appear on screen is not considered part of the Heroes canon." In near-canon instances (like GN), refer to "Official Sources", where it states "Some non-canon information comes from the creators and broadcasters of the show". I'm not sure that the story was created by Jeph Loeb, but the point is that it was not written by anyone who works for NBC or is affiliated with the show. So, it is not an official source, but a fan creation. The writer was not hired by NBC like the GN writers are (most of which are writers for the show), so I just don't see how it's canon.--Bob (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2008 (EST)
        • Okay I feel like Hiro created a rift making everyone think the book is a fanfiction. IT IS NOT! Aury was HIRED by NBC to write this book. Jeph Loeb did provide the story for it. It IS canon. I think it falls under the same canonicity as g.n. But I just want to state this is NOT a fanfiction. Jason Garrick 20:08, 8 January 2008 (EST)
          • They never said that it was fan fiction. It would stand a snowball's chance in hell of being published if it were. They are just saying that since it wasn't written by anyone directly involving with the show, it's not as canon as , say Five Years Gone or Betty, Part 1. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 20:13, 8 January 2008 (EST)
            • Jeph Loeb made the story so that is why I think it is semi-canon. And the writers must have looked over the book to make sure everything was okay. They wouldn't just let someone write it and not consult them. I think I read somewhere that the writers consulting her while she was writing the book. I forgot where though. o.O Jason Garrick 20:17, 8 January 2008 (EST)
              • The best parallel would be Star Wars or Star Trek novels. All of them are at least licensed by Lucas or Paramount. Several are written by writers involved with the core project, and others are (like SC) written from stories by TPTB. But none of them are part of the canon stories of SW/ST. That doesn't mean that the events they depict are wrong or bad or anything of the sort--only that they haven't been confirmed by a film or episode.--Hardvice (talk) 21:38, 8 January 2008 (EST)
                • That's true, and in addition the first part of the book re-tells the story of the events leading up to Hiro meeting Charlie, and it re-tells the events differently than the episodes have presented it. That doesn't make it a bad story, but it is a different one than the storyline used for the episodes and graphic novels.--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:55, 8 January 2008 (EST)
                  • FWIW, Saving Charlie is pretty heavily promoted and linked from NBC.com. That still doesn't make it canon or near-canon, though I don't see any problem with putting info from the novel into the Notes sections, much like we did with the DVD deleted scenes. Also, it would suck to have a canon source that you had to shell out $23 bucks to read, but that's my bank account talking, not me. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:25, 8 January 2008 (EST)
                    • I'm reading a library copy. No money spent except for the gas to get to the library, which is just about a mile from my house. :)--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:28, 8 January 2008 (EST)
                      • With the price of gas, I think I'd be better off buying the book. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:38, 8 January 2008 (EST)
                        • You driving a motorhome, eh? ;) FWIW, my library will mail books to my house for a couple bucks.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2008 (EST)
                    • $9.99 for the Kindle edition. Best Christmas present ever.--Hardvice (talk) 02:25, 9 January 2008 (EST)
                          • Well you know what? I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico! XD Jason Garrick 21:50, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Timeline / Inconsistencies

Possible mistakes? If anyone has any ideas about these:
• Hiro sees the date when he travels to New York on a newspaper? (I seem to remember him being confused about the date after he sees Isaac Mendez)? (21)
• James Walker - Date of Death: August 19? (169)
• Hiro's "mother was alive and well" ? (212)--Heroes360 (talk) 17:51, 26 December 2007 (EST)

  • I'll probably not be able to begin reading this until at least next week, as I'm requesting a copy from my library and they're still cataloguing it, but here are my thoughts: Yes, Hiro saw the date on the Newspaper in NYC. That's how he knew he had three weeks to stop the explosion. I dunno about James Walker's death date, but we have it listed as October 2nd (that's when his frozen body was discovered)... Is it possible Sylar had kept him on ice for weeks on end? If Hiro's mom is alive and well, maybe Kaito remarried after Hiro's birth mom died?--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:51, 26 December 2007 (EST)
    • I should have said on a newspaper at the newsstand that he pick up the 9th Wonders comic from --Heroes360 (talk) 21:10, 26 December 2007 (EST)
      • Yeah, that would be different. In the episode, Hiro doesn't see the date until he is in Isaac's apartment.--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:23, 26 December 2007 (EST)
        • I haven't read Saving Charlie yet, but technically, Hiro did learn the date to which he traveled (namely November 8) from the New York Chronicle, a copy of which also happened to be at the newsstand where he picked up the 9th Wonders! comic. I'm curious to know the actual wording of the passage--there's not much room to allow for what was shown onscreen, but I can certainly devise a possible wording that would mean that Hiro learned the date from a newspaper which also happened to be at the newsstand. (In actuality, the New York Chronicle was held by the NYPD detective, I believe.) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:56, 26 December 2007 (EST)
  • Regarding James Walker's death, Mohinder tells the FBI on October 11, 2006 that "James Walker in Los Angeles was killed nine days ago" (Fallout). That puts James's death at October 2, 2006, which also fits with the other events of Don't Look Back, the episode in which James is shown dead. I have no idea where in the world August 19th comes from. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:01, 27 December 2007 (EST)
    • August 19th was just what it said on the wall in James Walker's toe tag or something. It could of very well been his birthday or something, but Hiro took it to mean the current date. --PeterDawson 12:23, 28 December 2007 (EST)
  • Regarding Hiro seeing the date at the newsstand, that is Hiro remembering the event of his trip to New York so perhaps he simply misremembered the facts. Regarding his mother being alive and well, that passage took place in the sixties, so she would have been. Dirk Amoeba 23:44, 29 December 2007 (EST)
  • These explanations suit me just fine. I just interpreted them differently when reading. Thank you for these other interpretations. It's just, when something doesn't match up, my heart kind of hurts, you know? Hiro very well could have been wrong about the date on James, he could have incorrectly remembered the facts about the newspaper (a stretch, but he does say things like Holy cow! and Holy moley!), and I re-read the part about his mom, and it can surely be interpretted as she was alive at the time of the funeral Kaito was attending. Thank you all.--Heroes360 (talk) 17:51, 26 December 2007 (EST)--Heroes360 (talk) 23:51, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Character History

Will we include the events of Saving Charlie in the character histories of Hiro, Ando, Charlie, etc.?--Citizen 17:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)

  • I'd rather not since it's not part of the Heroes Evolutions information. However, my opinion right now (keep in mind that I haven't read the book) is that a note with significant events and information would be sufficient. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 09:51, 30 December 2007 (EST)

Summary

Anyone feeling confident enough to summarize the book's content? --PeterDawson 18:09, 29 December 2007 (EST)

  • I'm probably going to write it. I got it yesterday and I'm already a third way through the book. So I'll do it as soon as I'm done. Jason Garrick 20:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)
    • Have you started on the summary, Jason? I just finished reading the book last night and am considering adding the summary to my todo list. I think it was an enjoyable, worthwhile read, though the ending was kind of a downer.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:52, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Word of Caution

Having read the novel, I think we should warn parents that this novel may not be suitable for young children, and contains some sexual references. The majority of them are towards the end of the book so parents might not realize they are there at first glance. If I were going to rate it, it would definately earn a PG-13 rating from me.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:52, 17 January 2008 (EST)

  • I'd give the same rating to Heroes itself. I don't think our function as a wiki is to warn parents. However, if we have a good summary, any questionable content should be evident automatically. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:57, 17 January 2008 (EST)
    • Yes, we should make it evident in the summary somehow. Also, I agree about Heroes itself also being PG-13, but that's more for gore and violence than for sexual content, imho. I'm assuming the summary will go into some detail for each chapter and worried about parents who might pick this up not knowing the difference, and who might not want to read through more than 50 chapters of summary before hitting the pleasantly naughty stuff. ;)--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:14, 17 January 2008 (EST)
      • Oh rly?--Bob (talk) 00:08, 18 January 2008 (EST)
        • Yes, and neither of those two link references were in Season 2.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:12, 18 January 2008 (EST)
          • Yeah, I think describing what is going on in Hiro's pants and where and how he is touching Charlie is worse than what was on the show. I found it kind of disappointing that Hiro had his mind in the gutter more than Ando. When I got the book, I was going to give it to my little brother, but I decided to read it first, so I don't think I will give it to him. -Lөvөl 03:42, 18 January 2008 (EST)
          • I was making a point that there is sexual (or "mature" since they don't show it on screen) content in Heroes, namely the strip club moments, or Matt and his wife having sex on the couch, or attempted rape, etc. Granted, I wasn't aware of the explicit description occurring in the novel, but to say Heroes has no sexual content is incorrect, even if most of it was from Season One. It's still the same show.--Bob (talk) 10:26, 18 January 2008 (EST)
            • My comment was that there was more gore/violence in the show than sexual content, not that there was no sexual content in the show.--MiamiVolts (talk) 10:56, 18 January 2008 (EST)
              • I agree with MiamiVolts. There is definitely sexual content in Heroes, but there is a lot more gore. --Ice Vision (talk) 10:58, 18 January 2008 (EST)

Canonicity revisited

Having read the above posts, I still don't see why Saving Charlie is regarded less canon than the GNs... What differs between them? Also - we need to come up with a general rule how to deal with novels, and include it in Help:Sources. Pierre 14:20, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

  • The novels are on a case-by-case basis. The author of Saving Charlie consulted with the Heroes writers, but she didn't let them proof her work and it isn't published by NBC. Thus, it contains inconsistencies with the main storyline and as-such shouldn't be treated as canon.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:05, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
    • Right, MV. And it's not just the inconsistencies that keep Saving Charlie from being canonical. (Otherwise we would have to throw out a number of episodes, too!) It really comes down to the fact that NBC is licensing Saving Charlie, but not producing it. It's an independent work sanctioned by the creators of Heroes, but does not contain an authoritative version of the storyline. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:42, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
      • Now, as far as Saving Charlie being canon, HeroesWiki is pretty clear that only the show itself is full canon whereas most other things are near-canon. I have read both MiamiVolts' and RyangGibsonStewart's ideas about the legitimacy of Saving Charlie as part of the overall Heroes story. I think that the novel is definitely part of the overall storyline. The Heroes writers, I believe, were all pretty clear that they meant for Saving Charlie to be a part of the overall Heroes story as much as they do the weekly graphic novels, the Evolutions content, etc. Even Heroes: The Mobile Game adds to the story (where at that point, the names "Maury Parkman" and "Arthur" were not yet mentioned on screen), yet even after Tim Kring said that there would be new content in the mobile game, there was a debate about whether or not we could change the wiki to add "Arthur" instead of "Mr." Petrelli. While this may be a case of "to each his/her own", my general thought is that if Tim Kring or NBC say that the information contained in a product (such as a novel or game) is part of the overall story, then the wiki should be updated accordingly. That said, whether or not Saving Charlie is canon, near-canon, or whatever you want to call it, the article needs some SERIOUS help. I would like to see a chapter-by-chapter summary, all characters and places added and updated, etc. This task is huge, but that is what this wiki is for. If I just read the novel yesterday and wanted to read a summary about the character of Mr. Roitz, I should be able to come to this wiki and read that summary. Another example I want to give is that when I was reading The Kill Squad, Part 3, I saw Lloyd Collins. If you have only watched the show, you have a different idea of Lloyd than if you have read the novel. All these scenes from the novel came flooding back into my mind about Charlie and Lloyd and Hiro that you just do not get from watching the show. ---Heroes360 14:52, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
        • I disagree that Saving Charlie should be considered canonical, and I have yet to see a quote from Tim Kring saying that it should be. I do agree that the page is in need of some help. I am not the right person to add summaries to the page, though. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:57, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
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