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Talk:Empathic manipulation

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Joseph's ability:
Dec 2009-Feb 2010
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Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources Episodes
Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible

Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine empathic manipulation's name.
Source/Explanation
Empathic manipulation is explicitly named in Syn's Assignment Tracker profile.

Persuasion

User:Shadowulf1 09:33, 28 January 2009 (EST) I think it's a good name, because it may seem like an extension of Persuasion at first, but it must first make physical and emotional contact; that's awesome...

existence of page

I don't really have too strong an opinion about whether or not this page exists, but I think we should discuss it here first. This is a confirmed ability. However, we have never seen it in action. It wouldn't be the first time we have a page for such a situation--an ability that is confirmed, but we haven't seen. Until Sylar, we had never seen Bridget Bailey's clairsentience--we had only taken her word from her emails. We had never seen the Constrictor use his ability--he started to, but if I'm not mistaken, he's never actually used it fully. We don't know the full extent of David's ability because we don't know if he's used it fully or not, and we're not really sure about nerve gas emission (the guy was sweating, but was he emitting nerve gases?)...The point is not to debate those other examples (which may or may not apply to Syn's ability), but to discuss whether or not to include empathic manipulation. My gut says to allow the page since we have so much information about it, but another part of me says that we really don't need the page at all, that it can all be included on Syn's page. I don't know. Any other thoughts? (In the meantime, I'm going to clean up the page so it at least is put to a fair test.) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:14, 25 February 2009 (EST)

  • Yes, but unlike those examples. we've never even seen Syn use her ability in a graphic novel, webisode, or any other part of Evolutions. We've just been given an AT page for it, nothing else. With bridget we at least got stories of her power use and a picture of a plaque. With Syn we have no examples of it being used. therefore no images to use besides the AT photo, which would be a terrible choice. We really have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we'll be soon making a page for deoxygenation and the Guyanan local's ability. --Piemanmoo 22:58, 25 February 2009 (EST)
    • Neither one of which is a confirmed ability, or for which we have even the slightest bit of information. We have a lot of information and confirmation about Syn's ability. Again, I'm not really for or against the article (though I don't mind it), I'm just putting the opposing arguments out there. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2009 (EST)
      • I understand, but I feel that until we get any more information about the ability we should leave it at the bottom of the page with the other unconfirmed ones. Any form or story or example outside of the AT would be enough , but as it is right now it's just too bare. --Piemanmoo 23:16, 25 February 2009 (EST)
        • I think the assignment tracker is enough to keep the page. It's definitely a confirmed ability, just not a demonstrated one (visually). I guess it's kind of like Bridget's ability, as we have confirmed examples of it being used given OOC, so that should make it exempt from the demonstration requirement, imho. I'm not opposed to getting rid of the page, but it doesn't belong listed with unconfirmed abilities like deoxygenation and the Guyanan's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:02, 26 February 2009 (EST)
          • I don't see any problem with keeping it, we are listing what we know, we have been given stories or what the ability does in the assignment tracker. Since we have information on this abilty inlike some others. --posted by Laughingdevilboy

Talk 11:50, 26 February 2009 (EST)

            • I agree with piemanmoo, it's not really an ability we know enough about yet and it hasn't been demonstrated at any point. If we did we would have to make pages for things like shadow manipulation which are on the AT map. --IronyUTC CH 11:58, 26 February 2009 (EST)
              • I disagree, we know far more about empathic manipulation and it is on the assignment tracker, the map has abilities with hardly any information and most are unconfirmed. Empathic mimicry is a confirmed power on a near-cannon source (if I am right in thinking). I really dont see anyharm in keeping this page. --posted by Laughingdevilboy

Talk 12:45, 26 February 2009 (EST)

                • There have been no demonstrations yet, I think this is a bad page. --IronyUTC CH 13:20, 26 February 2009 (EST)
                  • I would strongly agree with deleting the page. I mean we have never seen the ability, (probably never will, lol) so we should just be patient for the time being --Lolwut 13:00, 1 March 2009 (EST)
  • I think the page needs to STAY. I mean look we got the most ridiculous powers that have only been soon once and we make a page for them. We need to ask yourselves do we make pages for powers we seen, powers we know a lot about, or in both cases? Now the content of this page is well... complete #@!&. It needs a complete rewrite, because if I'm correct it looks like a lot of it is copy and paste from the assignment tracker (which I felt it looked like it was written by a teenage fan boy instead of staying true to the professionalism that we have always seen). --OutbackZack 13:50, 1 March 2009 (EST)
    • I think if future terrorist's ability can stay, this definitely can. --Crazylicious 14:24, 1 March 2009 (EST)
      • May I gently remind people discussing the existence of this page that the validity of the ability (especially in relation to other abilities) does not need to be discussed. Really, the issue is that we have an ability that we have never seen demonstrated, yet that we have a lot of information about. That's the issue that will determine whether the page will be deleted or not. I just want to keep us focused. :) Thanks! -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:32, 1 March 2009 (EST)
        • Keep it. When clairsentencie was only a Evolutions ability, it have its own page. We have a lot of information about it --Henryp 15:41, 1 March 2009 (EST)
        • Everyone should ask themselves this: If Syn's AT page had no diagram and therefore no image for us, would we have given it a page? An image being available shouldn't be the deciding factor for making a page.--Piemanmoo 15:55, 1 March 2009 (EST)
          • Possibly--it's hard to say, PMM. I'm sure somebody would have created the page, just as somebody created a page for clairsentience even though we had no image. (We used that awful image of the Charles Lamb statue which was only marginally associated with the ability.) I don't have a strong feeling any one way, but I'm tending to lean towards the sentiments Henryp is expressing. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:16, 1 March 2009 (EST)
            • I seriously doubt that we will ever see this ability used. I mean the character itself was an association of heroes and the devil spawn habbo hotel, i dont see how they could progress the charcter further. True that Bridget bailey came about in the same sort of circumstances, but this charcter has no sustinct relevance to the story --McLovin' 13:16, 2 March 2009 (EST)
              • The thing about this ability is that there have never been Any demonstrations. Briget Bailey talked about using her ability whereas this doesn't have any definite uses, they are too vague. When the AT says she mainly uses it .... it doesn't at all say she has done it at a particular time, to a person or place. --IronyUTC CH 15:06, 2 March 2009 (EST)Insert non-formatted text here
                • Also, we shouldn't use the existance of Bridget's page as an excuse to have this one. True, we did have that terrible picture of the Lamb state for all that time, but the AT diagram of Syn's power is 10 times worse looking. There's probably no harm in keeping this page itself, but I really don't think it should be on the list of abilities, and it should only be linked to by Syn's profile.--Piemanmoo 02:04, 3 March 2009 (EST)
  • It's just an eyesore. --Lolwut 06:32, 8 March 2009 (EDT)
    • Well I'm definitely for it being deleted, aside from the information given, it hasn't been demonstrated. Even with the image, it still shouldn't be here and should be deleted and have "empathic manipulation" link to Syn's page.--Steely McBeam - (talk) 07:51, 8 March 2009 (EDT)
      • It looks like there are some strong opinions both ways regarding this page. I personally don't feel very strongly about the page one way or the other. Since it's been here for so long and isn't doing any harm...and since it is a legitimate ability, my thought is to keep it around. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

Evolutions Abilities

Shouldn't this be in Evolutions Abilities? --BoomerDay 11:52, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

Talk 12:05, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

    • Yep, sorry I missed this one when I was originally making the split. I'll take care of it now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:30, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

On the main page, it's listed with the abilities that appeared in canon sources. It doesn't matter that much in my mind, but it's still something you should be aware of.--ERROR 10:26, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Bliss and Horror

It's sound like the ability of haitian's father... just is different on the "touch part", but can be an developtment...

  • Guillame (or however it's spelled) could only create positive or negative sensations in people, Syn is able to create much more complex scenarios.--PJDEP 22:36, 6 December 2009 (EST)
    • Yes, but could that be considered a limitation of the same ability? --Ricard Desi (t,c) 00:45, 7 December 2009 (EST)
      • No, because sensations and emotions are very different. Besides, the description they gave us about Syn's power essentially confirms that her ability is different from Peter's and Guillame's.--Referos 17:59, 7 December 2009 (EST)

Morgan

The precedent is to treat as a confirmed possessor of an ability only a character that has actually demonstrated the ability. This can either be graphically (episode, GN, etc) or by text (iStory, or descriptions like Bridget's emails). Morgan never demonstrated this ability, so even if the Watcher says she has this ability, it's still unconfirmed.--Referos 21:06, 14 December 2009 (EST)

  • There is plenty of evidence that she has it. The Watcher remarks multiple times that she has it, and that it would be useful for his plans. That seems pretty confirmed to me. This has been done before, with Theodore van den Burg and plant manipulation, who only mentioned he had it.--Ratclaws 21:35, 14 December 2009 (EST)
    • I agree. Normally, if an HSG character is simply featured in the iStory, we don't say that their ability is confirmed if we need to base it solely on information from the character's Survival profile. However, we don't always need to have the character demonstrate the ability to say it's confirmed. If The Watcher says that she has the ability, that's good enough for me personally. Probably the best thing to do is to put her in the confirmed section, but not make a new section for her--maybe mention her in the notes, and say that The Watcher says she has an ability, but we have never seen her demonstrate it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:50, 14 December 2009 (EST)

Emotion Manipulation

Some people in the other talk pages are discussing this one. Shouldn't this be named as "Emotion Manipulation" instead of "Empathic Manipulation" I read(though I'm not exactly sure of his exact words)one guy in another talk page who said that:"Empathy means to know what others feel, to relate to them" and he's right in describing what you mean by empathy. So that makes Empathic Manipulation invalid because technically Syn(the only confirmed holder of the ability) is not actually said to be "relating to others, or know what they're feeling" and then manipulating it, he simply(and directly) manipulates the emotions of other people she comes in contact with.

Renaming this to Emotion Manipulation would also clear up the page for Joseph Sullivan, who, according to Edgar's list, can control emotions. What does anyone think of this? I'm not sure about the canonicity of the name "empathic manipulation", but won't anyone consider this? --Realistic

  • Emotion Manipulation isn't canon, and Empathic Manipulation is near-canon. If you look at the blue box at the top of the page, the Assignment tracker's page's name is more canon than a descriptive one. Empathic manipulation will be staying. --mc_hammark 07:56, 24 January 2010 (EST)
    • Just asking...if the name's canon but it doesn't fit the ability, does this site still follow it?--Realistic
      • If a name is canon but doesn't fit the ability, yes, sadly we do. Take a look at Freezing and the want for a split of Tracy's ability, but there are those who don't because it's been called freezing (before it evolved, I might add). This is something that we have to fix with the naming conventions, but for this... empathic manipulation does fit quite well. --mc_hammark 16:19, 24 January 2010 (EST)
        • If a name is canon and it doesn't fit the ability, we don't shoehorn it in. In the case of an ability like freezing, the name was given to us explicitly to describe Tracy's ability. Empathic manipulation was never given to us to explicitly describe Joseph's ability. We don't necessarily need to use it, especially if it doesn't fit. In this case, I don't see much of a difference between Joseph's ability and Syn's ability, so I'm not opposed to using "empathic manipulation" to describe Joseph's ability. However, if it were up to me, I would use "emotion manipulation" to describe Joseph's ability, just to be on the safe side, since that's what was given to us. But renaming this page to "emotion manipulation" is not an option, since we were explicitly given a name for Syn's ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2010 (EST)
          • The only problem I'd have with making it another ability is that we'd have two abilities which could do the same basic thing, but have two different, yet similar, names. --mc_hammark 18:47, 24 January 2010 (EST)

Image

Should we continue using the picture of the assignment tracker or should we use the one we had for Joseph's ability (however vague it is)?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:55, 19 February 2010 (EST)

  • We should use the one we had for Joseph's ability, because that is the only one we have of the ability actually in use--Hiroman 13:19, 19 February 2010 (EST)

What the hell's a Haboo?

?--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 16:43, 22 February 2010 (EST)

  • It's Habbo. It's some sort of online 3-d-ish world game where you (i think) create your own home type place then meet up with the avatars of other people from all around the world. A bit like "second life" but much less... in depth. --mc_hammark 16:45, 22 February 2010 (EST)
    • And Syn is an avatar for someone?--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 16:47, 22 February 2010 (EST)
      • I think it was more of a Syn had an avatar of her own, which she used to contact people. --mc_hammark 16:48, 22 February 2010 (EST)
        • Is Syn a part of the Heroes Crew? I'm sorry if this sounds impossibly stupid but this is one of the more bizarre things I've heard today.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 16:51, 22 February 2010 (EST)
          • I think that when Habbo was starting out as a social networking site, because it was so little noticed NBC signed a deal with them to put some Heroes Evolutions content onto it. This of course would bring in some Heroes fans to the site, so as far as I'm aware, it's one of the Heroes crew or someone from NBC, much like Hiro's blog. --mc_hammark 16:54, 22 February 2010 (EST)
            • The name used for the ability right now comes from her AT. Even the text doesn't seem written by Heroes related crew, which is why I supported "emotion control" over this. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:53, 22 February 2010 (EST)
            • I might end up agreeing with you. I definitely prefer the name "emotion control" or "emotion manipulation", but I need to find out how accurate this "habiboo" thing is....--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 20:50, 22 February 2010 (EST)
              • I have no idea who wrote the Habbo profile or the Assignment Tracker page, but I do know that both were approved by the Heroes executives. I would assume that the AT profile went through the normal approval process, which is pretty stringent. In any case, the name that was given to us was "empathic manipulation", so like it or not, we'll be using it. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:23, 22 February 2010 (EST)
              • In addition to what ryan said, Empathic manipulation got more votes than emotion control on the poll that we made. So I think it was fair enough to use it --Dark Master 01:47, 23 February 2010 (EST)

Joseph

Joseph said on the graphic novel that he can tell the prime Eli from his clones, the clones don't have a blood as shown on the series and graphic novels; they also don't have a mind (one of the clones said that only the prime have one on Brave New World); so it was safe to say that the clones also doesn't have emotions and it proves that Joseph can sense the emotion, how else can he tell the prime Eli while it was surrounded by his clones. --Dark Master 02:01, 23 February 2010 (EST)

  • There could be some visual marker that Joseph learned to identify, he could have simply been bluffing (did he actually pick out the Prime?), he could have done any number of things. We don't know for certain, and therefore can't add it to his section.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 02:11, 23 February 2010 (EST)
    • He said to Eli that "You know I can tell the real one from the clones", I think he pin-point the prime on a time-line not shown. We haven't seen the whole past of the carnival yet and besides it fits on what another user said for empathy - to know what others feel, to relate to them --Dark Master 02:17, 23 February 2010 (EST)
      • Shoudn't we expand Joseph's part? Aside from what I said above, he also used his ability on Samuel although he turn it off (said by one of the user on one of the discussion that we have before the rename. I think he also used it on Mohinder, Mohinder as we know doesn't easily abandon a research like what he does on season 3. And shouldn't we re-phrase this "How exactly he achieved this is unknown." we now know that he can control the emotions and I think someone will get confuse if they read it. This was just a proposal, since Joseph's part now was not a proper article for Empathic manipulation --Dark Master 05:44, 26 February 2010 (EST)
        • All of those are speculation, we don't know if he was using his ability for certain. We have something in the notes section for Samuel's quote. I'll change the last sentence to make more sense.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:08, 26 February 2010 (EST)