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Talk:Joseph's ability

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What is it?

Joseph used his power on Doyle in iStory. It looked a lot like mental manipulation. But he didn't touch Doyle to knock him out. So... Your thoughts? Green.gif AltesUTC CH 14:24, 15 December 2009 (EST)

  • I think it is mental manipulation.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 14:25, 15 December 2009 (EST)
    • Joseph's ability just now, that way if it is mental manipulation we are not wrong, but if it's not, we're still not wrong. --mc_hammark 14:26, 15 December 2009 (EST)
      • Personally I think it's something like Ability Negation, which would explain that Samuel could never reach his full potential.
        • That was because there were too few evolved humans in the carnival to give Samuel a significant boost. My theory is - it's telepathy. Because in Bloodlines he somehow knows which Eli is the Prime. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
          • Or Joseph just saw prime Eli breathing, i mean it was cold over there so there would be smoke if you breath.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 14:42, 15 December 2009 (EST)
            • Hey, you are right! One of Elis is indeed shown breathing. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 14:48, 15 December 2009 (EST)
              • Oh wait, no. They ALL are breathing. Each one exhales steam. Hmm... Green.gif AltesUTC CH 14:51, 15 December 2009 (EST)
  • I say wait to see if more info about the ability comes to pass. With both the current iStory and graphic novel arch I'm sure it will. --OutbackZack 15:37, 15 December 2009 (EST)
    • Right. We know the iStory arc will continue, and we can assume Joseph will appear again. (I have no inside information on this.) Before we ask for clarification or anything like that, let's wait to see what happens. I'm glad to see this ability has not been named yet. I think the situation is being handled very well. Nice job, guys. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2009 (EST)
      • I'm really hoping that this turns out to be the empath ability. It certainly seemed like that was where we were headed early on in the season.--Gibbeynator 17:08, 15 December 2009 (EST)
        • The biggest issue I have with Joseph being an empath is that he would have absorbed Samuel's ability, thus neutralizing as a threat. Personally, I think that Joseph has a power that has never been shown before, some sort of mental disruption, it would account for Samuel being so hazy when Mohinder first ran into him at the carnival. My other theory is that he used sedation, he may have lost control of his ability because he was about to collapse, not because the ability itself. Like, had he been holding a wine glass, when Joseph used his ability he would have dropped it, due to the fact that he gradually lost consciousness.--PJDEP 20:33, 15 December 2009 (EST)
          • He could have used Lydia's ability to see that Samuel had no intention of killing him, at least at first. It certainly seemed like Samuel had no intention of killing Joseph, only doing so because he was angry at the time.--Gibbeynator 20:34, 15 December 2009 (EST)
            • That may be true, but I was trying to say that Samuel has been made out to be the evolved human anti-christ of sorts. I feel like it would cheapen the experience of Joseph could do the same thing.--PJDEP 20:38, 15 December 2009 (EST)
              • It appears to be Empathic Manipulation as it points to manipulating emotions to make others lose concentration with their abilities and making them collapse due to an intense emotion to that effect. --Garthak 08:21, 16 December 2009 (EST)
                • Empathic manipulation requires touch, too. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 09:07, 16 December 2009 (EST)
                • Joseph's empathic manipulation may work differently then NBC promo girl's version.--PJDEP 15:19, 16 December 2009 (EST)
                  • By that logic, it can be any ability that requires touch, but Joseph has a different version that doesn't. If he had empathic manipulation, I think he could've swayed Eli and Samuel from their criminal ways. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 05:05, 17 December 2009 (EST)
                    • He may not have felt comfortable, they didn't appear to be actually hurting anyone so it wasn't essential for them to stop. Also, changing their emotions wouldn't permanently change their nature.--PJDEP 15:31, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Seen or unseen

Just now it's listed as unseen, but wasn't there a picture when it happened. It was kind of blurry. I think this counts as seen, doesn't it. I'll see if I can get a pic. --mc_hammark 15:07, 15 December 2009 (EST)

Finally! :)

At last we have an ability for him! It may not be the best ability, but even so :) -- Leckie -- Talk 08:51, 16 December 2009 (EST)

  • We just aren't sure what it is. Maybe neurocognitive deficit, but we need some more info. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 09:04, 16 December 2009 (EST)
    • I get the impression that Ernie Crum is getting back Arnold's ability as soon as Joseph enters the room! --Juba 08:52, 23 December 2009 (EST)

What If

Maybe his ability has nothing to do with Eric fainting. Maybe, it was the strain of Eric trying to use his ability that made him unconscious. Or yes, Joseph's ability is like the Haitians. Because in Season One, Matt fainted when he was sitting across from the Haitian. --Scorvi12 05:23, 17 December 2009 (EST)

  • Matt fainted because his drink was drugged. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 05:35, 17 December 2009 (EST)
    • Oh, hahaha. Well, that point is squashed. But still, maybe it was the strain of Eric not being able to use his ability. Like in Dual, when he collapsed unconsciously after Sylar stopped him. --Scorvi12 06:45, 17 December 2009 (EST)
      • Well, iStory says, "A tall man enters the tent, taking in the situation. He sighs, recognizing Doyle's ability. Suddenly, Doyle feels his focus weakening, and before long, his mental grip on Samuel dissipates. Someone is messing with his ability! Unable to fight back, Doyle is finally outdone, and collapses to the floor". Dunno, nobody passed out after trying to use their ability while under the Haitian's influence, they only got nosebleed, and Doyle didn't. As to how Sylar defeated Doyle... I think he somehow used telekinesis, but it's unlikely. I don't think he has mental manipulation or anything similar, though. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 06:18, 17 December 2009 (EST)
        • Well, I'm not sure yet. I suppose its a bit early for me to be making assumptions. Hahahaha. --Scorvi12 06:45, 17 December 2009 (EST)
          • A totally crazy idea: what if it's ability diminishment? The description given in the iStory fits all the criteria: Doyle loses focus and passes out! (only there's no blue glow) Green.gif AltesUTC CH 06:53, 17 December 2009 (EST)
            • It would be so cool (and easier) if it was! It probably is something like that, plus loads of abilities are the same but done different. Like Knox enhanced strength and Niki's enhanced strength. --Scorvi12 06:57, 17 December 2009 (EST)
            • And here's the kicker: If they absolutely needed to end it this season, all Joseph would have to do is get Ando brought to him/his time and POOF. No more abilities. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:04, 17 December 2009 (EST)
              • That's one crazy theory Richard!!, Let's hope it doesn't come true!! :P - Jenx222 | U / T / C | <inlcudeonly>08:00, 7 January 2012 (EST) 10:13, 17 December 2009 (EST)


Even with one demostration, there's plenty info to tell what Joseph can do. Let's get started? Green.gif AltesUTC CH 14:21, 25 December 2009 (EST)

Mental manipulation


  1. Joseph made Eric lose focus over his ability.
  2. He knocked Eric out.


  1. René doesn't make anyone lose focus over their powers - they simply don't work in his presence, and it can be overcome.
  2. Joseph didn't touch Eric to knock him out, something which René needs.
  3. Joseph didn't display memory erasing aspect.

Neurocognitive deficit


  1. Joseph didn't touch Eric to knock him out.
  2. Eric lost his focus first. This may account as an effect of neurocognitive deficit.


Something else




  1. Joseph knocked Doyle out, which is more or less the definition of sedation.
  2. Loss of ability control could be attributed to a gradual loss of consciousness.


  1. The wording used in the iStory "Someone is messing with his ability!" implies that whatever Joseph used affected the ability directly, and not affected as a byproduct of something else.
  2. Joseph didn't have to whistle like Samson did.
  3. It seems like a weak ability to give such an important character? (Is this relevant enough?)

I wasn't sure whether I could edit your original post to add this as a possibility, but if that's what you intended feel free to rearrange it.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:06, 25 December 2009 (EST)

  • I still feel it's too soon to give it a name. There's just too many possibilities at the moment. I still want to give it some more time with the current istory and GN archs. If nothing else new comes from that then I'll be more willing to name this ability. --OutbackZack 15:20, 25 December 2009 (EST)
  • Why are we rushing this? it's clear his ability will be revealed very soon so we may aswell wait. - Jenx222 | U / T / C | <inlcudeonly>08:00, 7 January 2012 (EST) 15:34, 25 December 2009 (EST)
  • It is absolutely too soon to give this ability a name. We have virtually no idea what this ability really does. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 22:57, 25 December 2009 (EST)
    • I agree, it's too soon to name this ability. Let's hope for more iStory, or else a GN, timetravel/flashback episode, these should give us more info. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:00, 26 December 2009 (EST)
      • Or if it's even his base ability, given all the talk of him maybe being an empath.--Gibbeynator 10:26, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Well, we gave disintegration a name after a single demonstration and a huge debate, didn't we? Green.gif AltesUTC CH 06:34, 30 December 2009 (EST)


Due to the recent focus shift in the GN's and iStory, I'm starting to feel as if we'll never see Joseph or his ability again :(--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:57, 29 December 2009 (EST)

Edgar's List

In Let It Bleed, the list of carnies that Edgar provides Noah says "Joseph Sullivan: controls emotions". So where does this lead us? :P --Whizzles 21:55, 4 January 2010 (EST)

  • Except I don't think that exhaustion is an emotion. Plus, it's pretty tough to make a carnival act out of changing people's emotions.--Gibbeynator 22:34, 4 January 2010 (EST)
    • The exhaustion could be a result of rapid emotional swings. Also, Samuel appeared to run the "business" end of the carnival, so he doesn't necessarily have an act.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:39, 4 January 2010 (EST)
      • If he did have an act it could of been anything from amazing to pointless but Joseph could of made people feel satisfied by it. "The Listener"
        • Hopefully someone can get a screen shot of that. If it's true then that's the name we'll use. It would be "unwiki" like of us if we didn't. --OutbackZack 15:13, 5 January 2010 (EST)
          • I can't get a good screencap, but I can also tell you it looks as though Edgar went on Heroeswiki to find most of the answers. For example, it says "Game operator: telekinesis"; I find it funny that Edgar wouldn't even know the guy's name. xD There's also things like "Caleb: spider mimicry" which is the name I believe we made up. --Whizzles 16:56, 5 January 2010 (EST)
  • So I guess we change the name to Emotion Manipulation, or something that says he controls emotions. --OutbackZack 16:09, 6 January 2010 (EST)
    • We already have an ability called "empathic manipulation", it's more or less the same thing Joseph has. I think we should add him there.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:11, 6 January 2010 (EST)
      • Yeah that just hit me too. I agree. --OutbackZack 16:25, 6 January 2010 (EST)
        • Is there a merge template to put at the top of a page (like the rename and split templates)?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)
          • Two things: One, the image is too blurry to clearly read as "emotions". Everyone is getting excited and just going with the assumption. Second, PJDEP, Emotional =/= Empathic, as I stated on another page. Empathic means to empathize. To feel what others feel, to know what they are. If you're not feeling what they feel, then you're not empathizing. --Riddler 17:16, 7 January 2010 (EST)
            • I never said that the name was the most accurate, I was merely stating the fact that an ability to control emotions has already been created and named "empathic manipulation".--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:23, 7 January 2010 (EST)
              • Agreed. If the debate is going to be about the blurriness of the words then I'm sure we can get a cleaner image. However, there should be no debate if empathic manipulation would be the appropriate name or if the list is canon. It's very cut and dry and follows our wiki policy. --OutbackZack 12:56, 9 January 2010 (EST)
                • If Edgar listed that Joseph "controls emotions", call the ability "emotion control", how hard is that? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:31, 10 January 2010 (EST)
                  • Because there is a very similar ability that does virtually the same thing, called "empathic manipulation". I'm not saying that that is the best name for it, but it's clearly the same ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:46, 10 January 2010 (EST)
                  • No it's not, Empathic Manipulation was specificaly said to only affect people by touch. Joseph was never mentioned to make physical contact with Doyle, and I doubt he spend the majority of his life holding his brother's hand. Sure, we could say that he just has a variation in his ability, and it's really just the same on as Syn's, but hey that would be speculative. We have an episode, a primary source, which tells us quite clearly what it is that Joseph does. And a primary source outranks our half-asses attempts to explain it on here, so I say for once we should just take the name they gave us and stick with it, without this turning into another inane debate.--Piemanmoo 02:33, 12 January 2010 (EST)
                    • Knox is kept together with Niki and the others, Eli is kept together with Julien and the others, many abilities manifest differently but are ultimately the same ability. I'm not sure exactly where I stand at this point, but in any case we need to wait until we get either a clearer image or writer confirmation that controlling emotions is Joseph's ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 02:41, 12 January 2010 (EST)
                      • Cloners were confirmed to have the same ability, been trying all my membership to split Knox, and right now, I may have another shot. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 09:02, 12 January 2010 (EST)


Good idea, from what it says on Edgar's list this could possibly be considered a canon name? Thing is, why would he write down Joseph's name and ability when he's been dead for about 3 months? -- Leckie -- Talk 17:07, 7 January 2010 (EST)

  • Who knows, but what's there is there. --OutbackZack 21:24, 7 January 2010 (EST)
    • I imagine he went to the Carnival entry on this site and just started copying the information, not stopping to check and see what was right and what was wrong.--Gibbeynator 08:30, 10 January 2010 (EST)

Merge with Empathic manipulation

According to Edgar's list, Joseph controls emotions. We currently define Empathic manipulation as the ability to alter others' emotions and feelings after physically touching them. I'm not sure if Joseph touched Doyle at any point. However, this can easily be resolved with a simple clean up of the page and noting it in the limits section. --OutbackZack 16:06, 12 January 2010 (EST)

  • Sure, that sounds okay to me. --Piemanmoo 01:41, 16 January 2010 (EST)
    • Tracy can now freeze stuff without touch, why can't Joseph control emotions without it too? Let's merge it, we've been explicitly told what Joseph used to be able to do. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 02:13, 16 January 2010 (EST)
      • We've only got about 4 episodes left, so we're bound to get a specific name to what Joseph can do. And given that the list was so blurry, it was probably never meant to be seen. Let's just wait until the end of the season before we change this, you don't want to look like a fool for giving Joseph an ability he doesn't have.--Gibbeynator 11:39, 18 January 2010 (EST)
        • I agree with Gibby, we'd feel pretty stupid if we gave him "empathic manipulation" and it turned out to be "elephant control"....--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 13:13, 18 January 2010 (EST)
          • It's there, it's there. It's our duty as a wiki to document it, not to dispute it. If it was to change then we make the changes. All the other names, titles, and descriptions match up with everything else on the wiki. So it's more speculation to say that's not his ability as oppose to saying it is. --OutbackZack 15:07, 18 January 2010 (EST)
            • Depending on the status of the Sullivan Bros Twitter acount, whether it is official or not, I am for the split. I sent them a tweet asking what Joseph's ability was and they replied by saying that "In the same way some telepaths push thoughts, Joseph could push emotions." Just saying, but it all depends on whether it is an official NBC account. --mc_hammark 15:52, 18 January 2010 (EST)
              • That's good enough for me. You have to admit though, controlling elephants would make one hell of a carnival act.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:49, 18 January 2010 (EST)
                • i was thinking more of a circus, but we need to find out if the account is legit or not? --mc_hammark 08:01, 19 January 2010 (EST)
                  • It's listed on NBC's website as an official account, so yeah, I'm pretty sure he does have Empathic Manipulation. --midnightx10 03:13, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                    • Could you leave a link to where it says they're official, I can't find it... --mc_hammark 06:29, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                    • This is the link I found through google. It links back to 9th Wonders!, but I don't know that site well enough to find a link to the twitter account. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:28, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Empathic manipulation

I thought were basing on cannon sources (that's why we still have Healing Touch for Jeremy and Freezing for Tracy), we now have a canon source of what Joseph can do and it perfectly fits on Empathic Manipulation.

Explanation for Empathic Manipulation:

  1. Canon Source:
  1. Mohinder - He made Mohinder feels content or satisfied on what Joseph said making Mohinder leave the carnival and decided to abandon his research
  1. Near-Canon Source:
  1. Eli - on the graphic novel Joseph said that he can tell the real one from the clones. If the clones doesn't have a blood if they were injured surely they don't have emotions as well
  2. Doyle - on one of the ending on an istory Joseph made Doyle loss focus and passes out, I think he pushed or make Doyle feels stress that's why he losses his focus and can't control his ability and in the end have a health breakdown (passes out) or he made him feel pain and in the end passes out

The examples were just my theory and can be wrong, but we now have the list as a canon source right. We change Mrs. Comey ability name because of the same list that Edgar made why not do the same for Joseph? --Darkfiremaster13 04:21, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Joseph was listed as controlling emotions, if we're to name his ability based on that list, we should list him as having "emotion control". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:28, 21 January 2010 (EST)

  • The issue with that is that there is already a ...sort of canonically named ability (empathic manipulation) which is described as the ability to control the emotions of others. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:51, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    • Given that Syn Ander's was kinda created by Habbo, I'd consider the list as more canon her AT profile. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:14, 21 January 2010 (EST)
      • Joseph can control emotions? Syn Anders can also control emotions after touching someone. The only difference is the touch. And as we know abilities evolves did Tracy's touching requirements for her freezing. And Joseph would of had many hears to master his ability. --"The Listener" 10:15, 21 January 2010 (EST)
        • I know it's a typo, but I can't help but laugh at the fact you put "hears" instead of "years" Listner, given your name... lol :) --mc_hammark 10:19, 21 January 2010 (EST)
          • It's Empathic manipulation. You can't really debate the name. Yes, I know that name kind of sucks, and that it came from a Habbo, but let's just deal with it. I don't know why it's down for a name change when all we have to do is just MERGE them together. I say let's go ahead and do it since Empathic manipulation is controlling emotions. So do we really want to make this process harder than it needs to be? --OutbackZack 15:06, 21 January 2010 (EST)
            • I agree --Darkfiremaster13 05:12, 23 January 2010 (EST)
              • Listener listens, not looks lol. --"The Listener" 05:21, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                • If it's ok with everyone and as OutbackZack said let's merge Joseph's ability with Empathic manipulation --Darkfiremaster13 05:27, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                  • Why shoul we have to deal with it if a better name and simpler name given in the episode can be used? It's illogical. If anything we should at least wait until this volume is over, because by them we might get someone actually naming the ability. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:18, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                    • Empathic manipulation was given explicitly in an assignment tracker. Our precedent seems to be using these names no matter what, even if a more logical name is available (such as "gravitational manipulation instead of "vortex creation"). Empathic manipulation isn't that incorrect either, if empathy means to understand emotions, the user is manipulating through their understanding of another's emotions.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:23, 23 January 2010 (EST)


I know its been brought up before but in Thanksgiving...

You need to calm down" - Joseph

(Samuel starts to calm down after being really angry)

"Stop manipulating me, controlling my emotions" - Samuel (says something along those lines)

"You want me to let go? Fine I'll let go" - Joseph

(Samuel becomes angry again)

Lets think about that? --"The Listener" 05:31, 23 January 2010 (EST)

It only makes me more in favor of Empathic Manipulation --Dark Master 05:39, 23 January 2010 (EST)

  • Just rewatched and yes, seems like he controlled his emotions. But surprises me he don't control him when he tries to kill him :p -- (WaterRatj) 08:07, 23 January 2010 (EST)
    • It was my intention to sway more for Empathic manipulation as that Is what I hyperlinked. I believe he didnt control his emotions because he didnt think Samuel would go through with it, or, he needed to concentrate enough to use his ability and knew he would not be able to as Samuel would stop him. --"The Listener" 08:19, 23 January 2010 (EST)
      • That name sounds good to me to, we should use it in my opinion unless someone in the episodes call it a name :p -- (WaterRatj) 08:23, 23 January 2010 (EST)
        • Samuel said "controlling emotions". That's more evidence to "emotion control" that it is to "empathic manipulation". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:19, 23 January 2010 (EST)
          • The current (unwritten) policy is that love explicitness conquers all, so "empathic manipulation" wins.--Referos 12:22, 23 January 2010 (EST)
            • There was already an assignment tracker that named Empathic manipulation and were always using names that came from an assignment tracker --Dark Master 00:20, 24 January 2010 (EST)
              • There's no evidence that Joseph's power is the ability to manipulate emotions. The above quote from Samuel is not necessarily in reference to Joseph using his ability. Plus, we've really only read about his power in the iStory, where Joseph made Doyle pass out. Certainly, it's possible that Joseph has the power to manipulate emotions...but that's definitely not confirmed. Until we receive more information on the ability or see it in use at some point, we should not assume that his ability is any form of empathic manipulation. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:56, 24 January 2010 (EST)
                • That part is being used as evidence to support what we saw in Edgar's list actually. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:59, 24 January 2010 (EST)
                  • Oh, I totally missed that list. Well then, yes, I'm all for a move. I don't have an opinion on a name. I don't really care too much what name is used, but this page definitely needs to be moved to something. Soon. Personally, I'd go with "emotion control" since we don't know whether Syn Anders and Joseph had the same ability...but really, I don't care too much, so long as the page is moved. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:05, 24 January 2010 (EST)
                    • I also support "emotion control", since that is what we saw in Edgar's list. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:25, 24 January 2010 (EST)
                      • We also don't know if Ian and Au Co or Donald and Elisa had the same ability, but we list them as such because they do essentially the same stuff with their powers. Why should this be different with Joseph and Syn?--Referos 17:15, 24 January 2010 (EST)
                        • Right, Ian has always touched something to use his ability (the ground and the tree), but Au Co just had to wave her arms. Similarly, Essex made water jets while Elisa didn't. They're far too similar to be classified as different abilities, and since assignment trackers seemed to be used no matter what, it should be moved to empathic manipulation.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 18:00, 24 January 2010 (EST)
                          • It's ok if were going to use "Empathic manipulation" or "Emotion Control". But if we're going to use the latter one we should also change the other abilities like Enhanced strength for Knox, Healing touch for Jeremy Greer and I think the Freezing for Tracy falls on the same category. Their ability names also came from an assignment tracker, except Tracy who came from a file from primatech even though that name doesn't covers all of their ability. Even though the assignment tracker came from Syn Anders they can do the same thing minus the touch for Joseph. --Dark Master 01:00, 25 January 2010 (EST)
                            • This whole debate about what Joseph can do is giving me a headache, made worse by the last episode where Samuel refers to Lydia specifically as the empath to replace Joseph. Not that she was empathic as Joseph, or had empathy LIKE Joseph, but that she would be able to replace Joseph...--Gibbeynator 11:09, 26 January 2010 (EST)
                              • I think what they meant by an Empath was a man/woman with a good heart. The three Joseph, Lydia, and Peter, (I think Sylar will fit too if he was not tempted by Noah and Elle and if Chandra didn't sent him away) they all have a good heart. --Dark Master 03:08, 27 January 2010 (EST)


Didn't Samuel say to Lydia something like "the people want you to be their new Empath now Joseph's gone"? Could that mean his ability was Empathy like Lydia's?--Evil Maldini 13:24, 26 January 2010 (EST)

  • Jup, he sad that-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:25, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • If what has been implied by Edgar's list and iStory is true, he doesn't have the same ability as Lydia, this is probably a reference to the fact his ability also involves emotions. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:27, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • Yeah, but Edgar also said he met an empath...Peter... but he copied powers... perhaps " an empath" that Samuel talks about is a range of abilities to do with emotions. --mc_hammark 13:46, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • I still say that Edgar's list was not meant to be seen by the viewer, and will probably be re-written if it ever comes up again. Just the amount of outdated and wrong information on it makes it seem like they just needed to write something down that sounded convincing.--Gibbeynator 14:27, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • Actually, it makes a lot of sense that Peter (empathic mimicry), Lydia (empathy), and Joseph (empathic manipulation) would all be described as "empaths". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:14, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • The Sullivan Bros. Carnival twitter account said that Joseph can push emotions like telepaths can push thoughts. So it's pretty conclusive that Joseph's ability was empathic manipulation.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:28, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • Not necessarily, the twitter is not on the nbc website, so not official. It seems to be fan based, and they may have looked here and saw the talk page discussions, so just named that. --mc_hammark 15:30, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • It doesn't mean that Joseph and Lydia have the same ability because Samuel said to Lydia that she was the next Empath for the carnival, Peter was also called an Empath but he doesn't have Empathy, he doesn't even know who Lydia is. I think that what they meant for an Empath was a "man of compassion" as Lydia said for Peter, and that was to take care the carnival like a father or mother (on Lydia's case) to their home. --Dark Master 03:04, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Empathic manipulation or emotion control

The discussion seems to have halted, but it should start up again, given that we have more then enough evidence to name this ability. The way I see it, we have three options:

  1. Merge the ability with empathic manipulation and leave the name as it is.
  2. Merge the ability with empathic manipulation and change the name to "emotion control" (or some derivation of that).
  3. Keep the abilities separated and move this article to "emotion control".

My personal opinion is to merge it with empathic manipulation and leave the name as it is. They're similar enough to be the same ability, the only difference is that Syn Anders had to touch someone to use her ability, but there are other cases where one user needed touch but someone else didn't (plant growth, for one). I also think we should stay with the name "empathic manipulation" to keep with our precedent of using explicit assignment tracker names over unclear episodic content. I'm not sure whether we need a full consensus check for this or if we simply need a majority vote, so I don't feel entirely comfortable of starting a poll. However, we can definitely discuss it.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:07, 28 January 2010 (EST)

User:Shadowulf1 16:30, 28 January 2010 (EST) If Syn Anders has Empathic Manipulation, which requires empathic and physical contact to work, this power is not empathic manipulation, but Emotion Manipulation... right? Same way you split up Ted Sprague who had induced radiation and the boy who could emit microwaves... or the guy who could mimic metal and the girl who could mimic gold (a type of metal)...

  • The difference is that those abilities had different effects, not different methods of execution. Cloners all have different methods of cloning, but since the end result is the same in all cases, we keep it as one ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:04, 28 January 2010 (EST)
    • I agree, we merge Elisa who can only Mimic Water and Donald Essex who can mimic and shoot water from his hands. We also merge Au Co who can make plant grow by waving her hand with Ian Michaels who can make plant grow by touching the plant or the ground. So I think we should do the same, they can both control the others by manipulating their emotions. The difference was Syn Anders needed to touch someone while Joseph Sullivan can do it without the touch. And besides there was AN ASSIGNMENT TRACKER for Empathic manipulation, why does anyone want to disregard the assignment tracker of one ability but keeps another one that was clearly doesn't have all the aspect of the ability. --Dark Master 07:43, 29 January 2010 (EST)
  • I'm not sure it can be either of those as neither specifies his capability to make people lose control of their abilities. Empathic manipulation effects emotions, not the whole brain like Telepathy would. I think that part of his power alone distinguishes it from Empathic manipulation. As for Emotion control, similar thing, whatever ability we merge/create, it has to incorporate that part of his ability.--Evil Maldini 11:28, 29 January 2010 (EST)
    • Speculation, but I feel like Joseph made Doyle lose control over his ability by inducing doubt in him, making him lose self-confidence and feel as if he had lost control control. Also, we were given the description "controls emotions" in a canon source, so I don't think the ability name must mention that possible side effect.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:49, 29 January 2010 (EST)


Don't you think it's about time to decide on the name, season 4 already ended and I think he will not be shown or the writers will not give it a name if there was a season 5. They will just show a character with similar ability like what they did on Trevor and Pearl. There was already Syn Anders so I think they will not show another one, or they can show Syn on the series. --Dark Master 01:37, 12 February 2010 (EST)


I'm not exactly sure whether a simple poll will suffice for renaming this ability, but I'll start one anyway

Merge with empathic manipulation

  1. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 01:44, 12 February 2010 (EST) - Honestly, I just want the abilities to be merged, although I do think empathic manipulation is the more appropriate name.
  2. --Dark Master 01:46, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  3. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 02:06, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  4. --Ratclaws 09:03, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  5. --mc_hammark 14:46, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  6. --OutbackZack 17:20, 12 February 2010 (EST) "controls emotions" is Empathic manipulation. You honestly can't debate it.
  7. -- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 18:24, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  8. --Boom D  14  12:35, 13 February 2010 (EST) unless we change both of them to "emotion control"
  9. --Green.gif AltesUTC CH 05:58, 14 February 2010 (EST) The only difference between these is that Joseph didn't need to touch others. It's like Linderman and Ishi's healing - same power, different approach.
  10. --Evil Maldini 16:59, 14 February 2010 (EST)

Keep the articles separate, rename this to "emotion control"

  1. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:57, 12 February 2010 (EST) Don't really care about splitting, but I do think that whichever Joseph is on should be called emotion control.
  2. --Stevehim 19:22, 12 February 2010 (EST) see my arguments here.

I know there was an AT profile, but I still think that Edgar's list should trump it. We also have Samuel telling Joseph to stop "controlling his emotions". Also a simpler name. The other option is unnecessarily complex. I know it'll probably be merged, but I won't go down without a discussion. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:57, 12 February 2010 (EST)

  • Which begs the question: Why was he on Edgar's list if he'd been dead for months? --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:04, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • But what would be the point in having two different articles for the same thing? Empathic manipulation: the ability to alter emotions. Emotion control: the ability to alter emotions. Why would we have two different ones? --mc_hammark 17:04, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • I do feel that the ability is the same, it's a case where there are two names for the same ability. I'm choosing the one I like best. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:23, 12 February 2010 (EST)
        • The thing is that AT profiles trump the information in the show. --OutbackZack 17:26, 12 February 2010 (EST)
          • Anyone know where the AT profile in question is? I'd want to see it before weighing in (and mostly so I could update my AT page with it). --Stevehim 17:53, 12 February 2010 (EST)
            • There. --mc_hammark 17:54, 12 February 2010 (EST)
              • Thank you...I actually thought there was one for Joseph...I have Syn on the page already.  :) This is sort of the same problem I have with the whole Niki/Knox thing. It's speculation to say that two characters have the same ability when we get an AT for one that doesn't mention the other, just because we think the abilities are similar or the same. I never understood why Knox's AT should affect Niki's page at all...or how it isn't speculation to say it should. I guess I'd say the same with Syn and Joseph, unless there is other evidence about them being linked. --Stevehim 17:59, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                • Aha, but the company didn't have files on Joseph, which is why he had to go and find Danko to get him to take Samuel. If the company had files on Joseph before the destruction, then Danko would've known about him and samuel, which is why this isn't speculation. --mc_hammark 18:05, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                  • I don't understand what you mean. I am saying it is speculative to say that one character has the same ability as another...I didn't follow what the Company knows or might have known if things are different has to do with that. I'm not saying the abilities aren't the same, I'm saying that we can't say they are based on the AT, because there is no way to connect the AT to Joseph (or Niki to Knox's). --Stevehim 18:09, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                    • There is a difference. The company knew about Niki and Knox so would have had assignment trackers for both of them. The difference with Joseph is that the company didn't know about him, so they couldn't put him in as a similar. --mc_hammark 18:15, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                      • That's a moot point (and there is no AT for Niki that we know of anyway, so it's not correct either). Essentially you seem to be saying that 'if the Company knew about Joseph, he'd be on Syn's AT,' which is total speculation (or at least that's how I read your comment...I may have misinterpreted it). In any case, my point is that Syn's AT has nothing to do with Joseph, base don what we know. As such, it should not be used as an argument to merge abilities, and shouldn't be in the discussion at all, except to state Syn's ability description (and then try to match it to what Joseph - the argument that the abilities are the same). Thus, the 'canon bridge' (ie - that Syn's AT profile trumps what we've seen for the show with regards to Jospeh) doesn't hold up. --Stevehim 18:24, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                        • It would be equal speculation to say that his ability wouldn't be listed as the same as Syn's if The Company knew about him. Empathic manipulation is the ability to control emotions. Edgar listed Joseph's ability "controls emotions". There is no valid argument against the merge. --OutbackZack 18:32, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                        • They could have had an AT for Niki, she was studied after Noah left, and its been Noah who we log in under on the website. The point is, the abilities do the same thing (if we can believe Edgar's list). We've explicitly been given a name for them, and Edgar's list actually just says what he does, not what it's called. --mc_hammark 18:29, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                          • It doesn't matter if they 'could have an AT for Niki'...they could have an AT for anyone, including Joseph. My point wasn't that they don't 'do the same thing...' I don't know enough about them atm to decide what I think about point is that you can't say 'Syn has an AT and that trumps a canon source' to decide whether or not they have the same ability...Syn's AT only comes into play after we decide they have the same ability. --Stevehim 18:33, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                            • So are you saying that "controls emotions" (from edgar's list) is not the same as "Empathic Manipulation: the ability to control emotions." ? --mc_hammark 18:37, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                              • No, I am saying that you can't say Syn's AT trumps Edgar's list based on naming conventions. I am currently looking into the similarity of Joseph and Syn's abilities...I'll vote in a few minutes or so. --Stevehim 18:43, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                                • But we can say that it does, Edgar's list was a description of the ability, unless you want to change Samuel's ability to "Earth Control", after all the list said controls the earth and Samuel has said "I can control the very earth below..." --mc_hammark 18:48, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                                • Ok, I've looked into this a bit, and I can tell you that I already have a problem with both Syn's AT and Edgar's list in terms of the information they provide. Edgar's list is clearly (to me) a mix of descriptions and names (eg - telekinesis, spider mimicry are names...controls emotions is a description (that might lead us to a name)). Syn's AT says she needs to touch people for her ability to work, but then implies that she doesn't when it associates her ability with using her smiles to 'stay up later,' which doesn't require touch (or at least that is how I interpret that section). I will cats my vote above with reasons for it. --Stevehim 18:53, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                      • Something I'd like to know: Hana and Drucker had the same ability, yet their ATs named it differently. One had "digital communication" and one had "electronic communication", don't remember who had what though. Does anyone remember how we decided which name was to be used? Was there a vote or something like that? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:23, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                        • It was a much smaller discussion, and it was decided they were the same thing, with an allusion to another source saying they had the same ability. It was brought up again in the Niki/Knox thing (and in afew other places, I think) as precedent for grouping abilities. --Stevehim 18:30, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  • I think it's too vague, atm, to call them the same power. Syn's AT specifically states emotions and feelings, whereas Edgar's list makes no mention of feelings at all (I know this will cause a flurry of responses that they're the same thing, to which I'll respond now...1. It depends on what definition of each you accept and more importantly 2. Syn's AT specifically lists both, which to me implies that it is a broader scope than just one...I don't think they were just listing synonyms for the fun of it). Add to that the touch vs non-touch thing and my predisposition to take that as a reason to split (like IE, I have been trying to split Niki and Knox forever), and I don't see how I can vote to merge these. There's also the idea that once we start playing with scope of ability, it's a slippery slope. I can see the idea that Bliss and Horror be included here as well, just as different levels of the same ability, as well as merging plant manipulation and growth, and other things as well. --Stevehim 19:23, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • It's good that you mentioned plant growth, actually. Ian and Au Co were never said to have the same ability, but we merged them anyway. Ian has always had to touch something (be it the plant or the ground) to use his ability, while Au Co simply had to wave her arms. I don't see how this situation is any different.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 21:06, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • I'm not particularly familiar with the iStories, but from looking into this, it seems that Ian does not have to touch anything to make plants grow. I do not consider 'contact with the ground' the same as 'touching,' and even if I did, I don't recall Au Co ever levitating and using her power (unless you posit she made those peppers while being shot), so the same would be applied to her, wouldn't it? Further, there is no mention of the 'touching' limitation on the plant growth page or on Ian's page. The only limitation I've seen is him needing water and that falls under the age-old argument of 'what is the minimum ability difference needed to split abilities.' That's something that many people disagree on, and is somewhat inconsistent throughout the site. --Stevehim 22:15, 12 February 2010 (EST)
        • All right, you got me. I completely forgot about the iStory. However, I still feel that these abilities are way to similar to separate. One manipulates emotions, the others do through touch. Eli and Julien have drastically different methods of cloning, Nathan and West have different flying styles, and I won't bring up enhanced strength ;). But you see my point. The general rule seems to be, if the results are the same, the process does not matter.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:33, 12 February 2010 (EST)
          • I agree and I'll say again what i said before. If were going to disregard the assignment tracker for Empathic manipulation that can do the same as Joseph, we should also disregard the other assignment tracker like Healing touch for Jeremy Greer, Enhanced strength for Knox, Puppet master for Doyle and Freezing for Tracy. But since now we are still basing on the company files for this ability, so we should use the AT even though it didn't came from Joseph, he and Syn can do the same. --Dark Master 04:49, 13 February 2010 (EST)
            • Except some of us contend he can't do the same. The AT did not specifically mention Joseph in any way, so to say it applies to him is speculation based on us deducing that he has the same ability as Syn, of which the only evidence I can see is a blurry list that's a mixture of names and descriptions of abilities, supplied by an uninformed (though canon) source. You can't disregard the other AT's because they were applied to the specific people you mentioned. The only thing in the above that didn't apply would be using Knox's AT to define Tracy, which is the same thing as here, and which I maintain is still not right. However, the main argument that carried Tracy and Knox together was the idea that super and enhanced mean the same thing. So to bring that idea here, we'd have to decide whether 'controls emotions' and 'alter others emotions/feelings after physically touching them' mean the same thing to the degree that 'super' and 'enhanced' do (and even then, I'd still disagree, but that's a battle I, and others, lost long ago). --Stevehim 12:26, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                • By that logic, unless Niki and Knox are split, Joseph and Syn should be together.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:39, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                  • Only if you accept that last comment. --Stevehim 19:25, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                    • Well that's the way it is now. Thus this should be merged with Syn's ability. --OutbackZack 19:31, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                      • Right, that was my point. If we do split Knox and Niki (which I actually support), then we could split these two, but for now they deserve to be together.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:33, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                        • It sounds like you're talking about two lovers haha --OutbackZack 21:13, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                        • There is currently opposition to the idea that 'controls emotions' and 'alter others emotions/feelings after physically touching them' mean the same thing to the degree that 'super' and 'enhanced' do, so it is not exactly the same thing. At this point the discussion has mostly dwindled and seems to be going in circles anyway, so I would suggest asking one of the admins what we're supposed to do now (though I am always up for discussing it further). --Stevehim 21:29, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                          • I agree, we should also ask them about the other ability names. --Dark Master 05:19, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                          • I'm not crazy about the idea of dragging the admins into every discussion. I mean, think about it, if you were an admin, wouldn't that get annoying after a while? In this case, the poll has been up for about three days. I say that we close it at the end of the week and make the necessary changes. Of course, that's just my opinion.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:30, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                            • I don't like to bother the admins either, but for things like this, which are hotbed issues, we often need clarification on what to do. As for changing this page, majority (even overwhelming) does not meet the criteria of what's needed in this case. That said, while I will continue to support the argument that we can't say for certain these are the same ability, if it ends up that I am the only one that feels so, I will concede the point (as per my normal policy). However, right now there is at least one other person opposed to the merge (or at least opposed to how it should be merged), so it can't be done until that person's concerns are addressed. --Stevehim 16:32, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                              • IE's issue isn't about whether the abilities are the same or not, he just thinks the ability should be called "emotion control". At least, that is how I interpreted his posts. I don't want to put words in his mouth.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 19:51, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                                • Exactly. Regardless of merging or splitting, I think that the power Joseph should be listed as having is "emotion control". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:00, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                                  • So, regardless of the name, do you think that Syn and Joseph have the same ability, or have you not thought about it?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:01, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                                    • They look the same to me, I don't mind listing them as having the same ability, I just feel that in this particular case, in which the character and the ability name came from something almost completely unaffiliated with the show (Habbo), we should favor the more in-show source. Even the content of Syn's AT looks like it was written by an outside source. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:11, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                                      • Yeah, leave those admins alone! I'm sure they read these discussions, and if they wanted to share their opinions, they would. :) Plus, don't you think the admins are all so dreamy and handsome? -- SomeDude (talk)
                                        • So in the future (although I have no idea why I'm asking you this :p) if an admin doesn't interject after a few days worth of discussion, do we assume that we're doing the right thing?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:26, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                                          • I was teasing. Feel free to contact me if you ever want my opinion. But also realize that the admins, for the most part, are usually well aware of the discussions that are going on. Their absence from a discussion does not always mean they didn't know the discussion existed. It simply means that they either don't have a strong enough opinion to say something, don't care to weigh in, or simply don't have the time to respond to every discussion on the wiki (unless you're snowed in for six days). Almost every time I'm asked to join a discussion, I'm almost always already aware of the discussion, and haven't felt the need to share an opinion for whatever reason. But in the future, if somebody would like my opinion, I'm just a talk page away. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:34, 16 February 2010 (EST)
                                          • How long are we going to keep this up? --Dark Master 00:40, 18 February 2010 (EST)
                                            • I started the poll on the 12th. I think keeping the poll open a week should be fine, which would mean we'd be ready on Friday. However, I don't know for certain.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 00:47, 18 February 2010 (EST)
  • Isn't Joseph's ability like the ability I created (without the eye color change). By the way I created the page before I had even watched season 4 (I started watching Heroes about 2 months ago and I think I was on season 3 around that time). I think the name I gave to it is good but unfortunately it is not canon :( right? --Imax99 16:40, 16 February 2010 (EST)
    • Right, that would be a descriptive name, which is at level 5 of the naming conventions. By the way, I thought the eye color part of your ability was a nice touch :)--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 00:21, 17 February 2010 (EST)
      • Thanks man :) If the name gets approved that would be great!!! --Imax99 08:04, 17 February 2010 (EST)