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Talk:Joseph's ability

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Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name
 If no non-speculative
description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine the name for Joseph's ability.

What is it?

Joseph used his power on Doyle in iStory. It looked a lot like mental manipulation. But he didn't touch Doyle to knock him out. So... Your thoughts? AltesUTC CH 14:24, 15 December 2009 (EST)

  • I think it is mental manipulation.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 14:25, 15 December 2009 (EST)
    • Joseph's ability just now, that way if it is mental manipulation we are not wrong, but if it's not, we're still not wrong. --mc_hammark 14:26, 15 December 2009 (EST)
      • Personally I think it's something like Ability Negation, which would explain that Samuel could never reach his full potential.
        • That was because there were too few evolved humans in the carnival to give Samuel a significant boost. My theory is - it's telepathy. Because in Bloodlines he somehow knows which Eli is the Prime. AltesUTC CH
          • Or Joseph just saw prime Eli breathing, i mean it was cold over there so there would be smoke if you breath.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 14:42, 15 December 2009 (EST)
            • Hey, you are right! One of Elis is indeed shown breathing. AltesUTC CH 14:48, 15 December 2009 (EST)
              • Oh wait, no. They ALL are breathing. Each one exhales steam. Hmm... AltesUTC CH 14:51, 15 December 2009 (EST)
  • I say wait to see if more info about the ability comes to pass. With both the current iStory and graphic novel arch I'm sure it will. --OutbackZack 15:37, 15 December 2009 (EST)
    • Right. We know the iStory arc will continue, and we can assume Joseph will appear again. (I have no inside information on this.) Before we ask for clarification or anything like that, let's wait to see what happens. I'm glad to see this ability has not been named yet. I think the situation is being handled very well. Nice job, guys. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2009 (EST)
      • I'm really hoping that this turns out to be the empath ability. It certainly seemed like that was where we were headed early on in the season.--Gibbeynator 17:08, 15 December 2009 (EST)
        • The biggest issue I have with Joseph being an empath is that he would have absorbed Samuel's ability, thus neutralizing as a threat. Personally, I think that Joseph has a power that has never been shown before, some sort of mental disruption, it would account for Samuel being so hazy when Mohinder first ran into him at the carnival. My other theory is that he used sedation, he may have lost control of his ability because he was about to collapse, not because the ability itself. Like, had he been holding a wine glass, when Joseph used his ability he would have dropped it, due to the fact that he gradually lost consciousness.--PJDEP 20:33, 15 December 2009 (EST)
          • He could have used Lydia's ability to see that Samuel had no intention of killing him, at least at first. It certainly seemed like Samuel had no intention of killing Joseph, only doing so because he was angry at the time.--Gibbeynator 20:34, 15 December 2009 (EST)
            • That may be true, but I was trying to say that Samuel has been made out to be the evolved human anti-christ of sorts. I feel like it would cheapen the experience of Joseph could do the same thing.--PJDEP 20:38, 15 December 2009 (EST)
              • It appears to be Empathic Manipulation as it points to manipulating emotions to make others lose concentration with their abilities and making them collapse due to an intense emotion to that effect. --Garthak 08:21, 16 December 2009 (EST)
                • Empathic manipulation requires touch, too. AltesUTC CH 09:07, 16 December 2009 (EST)
                • Joseph's empathic manipulation may work differently then NBC promo girl's version.--PJDEP 15:19, 16 December 2009 (EST)
                  • By that logic, it can be any ability that requires touch, but Joseph has a different version that doesn't. If he had empathic manipulation, I think he could've swayed Eli and Samuel from their criminal ways. AltesUTC CH 05:05, 17 December 2009 (EST)
                    • He may not have felt comfortable, they didn't appear to be actually hurting anyone so it wasn't essential for them to stop. Also, changing their emotions wouldn't permanently change their nature.--PJDEP 15:31, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Seen or unseen

Just now it's listed as unseen, but wasn't there a picture when it happened. It was kind of blurry. I think this counts as seen, doesn't it. I'll see if I can get a pic. --mc_hammark 15:07, 15 December 2009 (EST)

Finally! :)

At last we have an ability for him! It may not be the best ability, but even so :) -- Leckie -- Talk 08:51, 16 December 2009 (EST)

  • We just aren't sure what it is. Maybe neurocognitive deficit, but we need some more info. AltesUTC CH 09:04, 16 December 2009 (EST)
    • I get the impression that Ernie Crum is getting back Arnold's ability as soon as Joseph enters the room! --Juba 08:52, 23 December 2009 (EST)

What If

Maybe his ability has nothing to do with Eric fainting. Maybe, it was the strain of Eric trying to use his ability that made him unconscious. Or yes, Joseph's ability is like the Haitians. Because in Season One, Matt fainted when he was sitting across from the Haitian. --Scorvi12 05:23, 17 December 2009 (EST)

  • Matt fainted because his drink was drugged. AltesUTC CH 05:35, 17 December 2009 (EST)
    • Oh, hahaha. Well, that point is squashed. But still, maybe it was the strain of Eric not being able to use his ability. Like in Dual, when he collapsed unconsciously after Sylar stopped him. --Scorvi12 06:45, 17 December 2009 (EST)
      • Well, iStory says, "A tall man enters the tent, taking in the situation. He sighs, recognizing Doyle's ability. Suddenly, Doyle feels his focus weakening, and before long, his mental grip on Samuel dissipates. Someone is messing with his ability! Unable to fight back, Doyle is finally outdone, and collapses to the floor". Dunno, nobody passed out after trying to use their ability while under the Haitian's influence, they only got nosebleed, and Doyle didn't. As to how Sylar defeated Doyle... I think he somehow used telekinesis, but it's unlikely. I don't think he has mental manipulation or anything similar, though. AltesUTC CH 06:18, 17 December 2009 (EST)
        • Well, I'm not sure yet. I suppose its a bit early for me to be making assumptions. Hahahaha. --Scorvi12 06:45, 17 December 2009 (EST)
          • A totally crazy idea: what if it's ability diminishment? The description given in the iStory fits all the criteria: Doyle loses focus and passes out! (only there's no blue glow) AltesUTC CH 06:53, 17 December 2009 (EST)
            • It would be so cool (and easier) if it was! It probably is something like that, plus loads of abilities are the same but done different. Like Knox enhanced strength and Niki's enhanced strength. --Scorvi12 06:57, 17 December 2009 (EST)
            • And here's the kicker: If they absolutely needed to end it this season, all Joseph would have to do is get Ando brought to him/his time and POOF. No more abilities. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:04, 17 December 2009 (EST)
              • That's one crazy theory Richard!!, Let's hope it doesn't come true!! :P - Jenx222 | U / T / C | <inlcudeonly>08:00, 7 January 2012 (EST) 10:13, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Consensus

Even with one demostration, there's plenty info to tell what Joseph can do. Let's get started? AltesUTC CH 14:21, 25 December 2009 (EST)

Mental manipulation

Pros:

  1. Joseph made Eric lose focus over his ability.
  2. He knocked Eric out.

Cons:

  1. René doesn't make anyone lose focus over their powers - they simply don't work in his presence, and it can be overcome.
  2. Joseph didn't touch Eric to knock him out, something which René needs.
  3. Joseph didn't display memory erasing aspect.

Neurocognitive deficit

Pros:

  1. Joseph didn't touch Eric to knock him out.
  2. Eric lost his focus first. This may account as an effect of neurocognitive deficit.

Cons:


Something else

Pros:

Cons:

Pros:

  1. Joseph knocked Doyle out, which is more or less the definition of sedation.
  2. Loss of ability control could be attributed to a gradual loss of consciousness.

Cons:

  1. The wording used in the iStory "Someone is messing with his ability!" implies that whatever Joseph used affected the ability directly, and not affected as a byproduct of something else.
  2. Joseph didn't have to whistle like Samson did.
  3. It seems like a weak ability to give such an important character? (Is this relevant enough?)

I wasn't sure whether I could edit your original post to add this as a possibility, but if that's what you intended feel free to rearrange it.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:06, 25 December 2009 (EST)

  • I still feel it's too soon to give it a name. There's just too many possibilities at the moment. I still want to give it some more time with the current istory and GN archs. If nothing else new comes from that then I'll be more willing to name this ability. --OutbackZack 15:20, 25 December 2009 (EST)
  • Why are we rushing this? it's clear his ability will be revealed very soon so we may aswell wait. - Jenx222 | U / T / C | <inlcudeonly>08:00, 7 January 2012 (EST) 15:34, 25 December 2009 (EST)
  • It is absolutely too soon to give this ability a name. We have virtually no idea what this ability really does. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 22:57, 25 December 2009 (EST)
    • I agree, it's too soon to name this ability. Let's hope for more iStory, or else a GN, timetravel/flashback episode, these should give us more info. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:00, 26 December 2009 (EST)
      • Or if it's even his base ability, given all the talk of him maybe being an empath.--Gibbeynator 10:26, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Well, we gave disintegration a name after a single demonstration and a huge debate, didn't we? AltesUTC CH 06:34, 30 December 2009 (EST)

Abandoned

Due to the recent focus shift in the GN's and iStory, I'm starting to feel as if we'll never see Joseph or his ability again :(--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:57, 29 December 2009 (EST)

Edgar's List

In Let It Bleed, the list of carnies that Edgar provides Noah says "Joseph Sullivan: controls emotions". So where does this lead us? :P --Whizzles 21:55, 4 January 2010 (EST)

  • Except I don't think that exhaustion is an emotion. Plus, it's pretty tough to make a carnival act out of changing people's emotions.--Gibbeynator 22:34, 4 January 2010 (EST)
    • The exhaustion could be a result of rapid emotional swings. Also, Samuel appeared to run the "business" end of the carnival, so he doesn't necessarily have an act.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:39, 4 January 2010 (EST)
      • If he did have an act it could of been anything from amazing to pointless but Joseph could of made people feel satisfied by it. "The Listener"
        • Hopefully someone can get a screen shot of that. If it's true then that's the name we'll use. It would be "unwiki" like of us if we didn't. --OutbackZack 15:13, 5 January 2010 (EST)
          • I can't get a good screencap, but I can also tell you it looks as though Edgar went on Heroeswiki to find most of the answers. For example, it says "Game operator: telekinesis"; I find it funny that Edgar wouldn't even know the guy's name. xD There's also things like "Caleb: spider mimicry" which is the name I believe we made up. --Whizzles 16:56, 5 January 2010 (EST)
  • So I guess we change the name to Emotion Manipulation, or something that says he controls emotions. --OutbackZack 16:09, 6 January 2010 (EST)
    • We already have an ability called "empathic manipulation", it's more or less the same thing Joseph has. I think we should add him there.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:11, 6 January 2010 (EST)
      • Yeah that just hit me too. I agree. --OutbackZack 16:25, 6 January 2010 (EST)
        • Is there a merge template to put at the top of a page (like the rename and split templates)?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)
          • Two things: One, the image is too blurry to clearly read as "emotions". Everyone is getting excited and just going with the assumption. Second, PJDEP, Emotional =/= Empathic, as I stated on another page. Empathic means to empathize. To feel what others feel, to know what they are. If you're not feeling what they feel, then you're not empathizing. --Riddler 17:16, 7 January 2010 (EST)
            • I never said that the name was the most accurate, I was merely stating the fact that an ability to control emotions has already been created and named "empathic manipulation".--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:23, 7 January 2010 (EST)
              • Agreed. If the debate is going to be about the blurriness of the words then I'm sure we can get a cleaner image. However, there should be no debate if empathic manipulation would be the appropriate name or if the list is canon. It's very cut and dry and follows our wiki policy. --OutbackZack 12:56, 9 January 2010 (EST)
                • If Edgar listed that Joseph "controls emotions", call the ability "emotion control", how hard is that? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:31, 10 January 2010 (EST)
                  • Because there is a very similar ability that does virtually the same thing, called "empathic manipulation". I'm not saying that that is the best name for it, but it's clearly the same ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:46, 10 January 2010 (EST)
                  • No it's not, Empathic Manipulation was specificaly said to only affect people by touch. Joseph was never mentioned to make physical contact with Doyle, and I doubt he spend the majority of his life holding his brother's hand. Sure, we could say that he just has a variation in his ability, and it's really just the same on as Syn's, but hey that would be speculative. We have an episode, a primary source, which tells us quite clearly what it is that Joseph does. And a primary source outranks our half-asses attempts to explain it on here, so I say for once we should just take the name they gave us and stick with it, without this turning into another inane debate.--Piemanmoo 02:33, 12 January 2010 (EST)
                    • Knox is kept together with Niki and the others, Eli is kept together with Julien and the others, many abilities manifest differently but are ultimately the same ability. I'm not sure exactly where I stand at this point, but in any case we need to wait until we get either a clearer image or writer confirmation that controlling emotions is Joseph's ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 02:41, 12 January 2010 (EST)
                      • Cloners were confirmed to have the same ability, been trying all my membership to split Knox, and right now, I may have another shot. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 09:02, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Rename

Good idea, from what it says on Edgar's list this could possibly be considered a canon name? Thing is, why would he write down Joseph's name and ability when he's been dead for about 3 months? -- Leckie -- Talk 17:07, 7 January 2010 (EST)

  • Who knows, but what's there is there. --OutbackZack 21:24, 7 January 2010 (EST)
    • I imagine he went to the Carnival entry on this site and just started copying the information, not stopping to check and see what was right and what was wrong.--Gibbeynator 08:30, 10 January 2010 (EST)

Merge with Empathic manipulation

According to Edgar's list, Joseph controls emotions. We currently define Empathic manipulation as the ability to alter others' emotions and feelings after physically touching them. I'm not sure if Joseph touched Doyle at any point. However, this can easily be resolved with a simple clean up of the page and noting it in the limits section. --OutbackZack 16:06, 12 January 2010 (EST)

  • Sure, that sounds okay to me. --Piemanmoo 01:41, 16 January 2010 (EST)
    • Tracy can now freeze stuff without touch, why can't Joseph control emotions without it too? Let's merge it, we've been explicitly told what Joseph used to be able to do. AltesUTC CH 02:13, 16 January 2010 (EST)
      • We've only got about 4 episodes left, so we're bound to get a specific name to what Joseph can do. And given that the list was so blurry, it was probably never meant to be seen. Let's just wait until the end of the season before we change this, you don't want to look like a fool for giving Joseph an ability he doesn't have.--Gibbeynator 11:39, 18 January 2010 (EST)
        • I agree with Gibby, we'd feel pretty stupid if we gave him "empathic manipulation" and it turned out to be "elephant control"....--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 13:13, 18 January 2010 (EST)
          • It's there, it's there. It's our duty as a wiki to document it, not to dispute it. If it was to change then we make the changes. All the other names, titles, and descriptions match up with everything else on the wiki. So it's more speculation to say that's not his ability as oppose to saying it is. --OutbackZack 15:07, 18 January 2010 (EST)
            • Depending on the status of the Sullivan Bros Twitter acount, whether it is official or not, I am for the split. I sent them a tweet asking what Joseph's ability was and they replied by saying that "In the same way some telepaths push thoughts, Joseph could push emotions." Just saying, but it all depends on whether it is an official NBC account. --mc_hammark 15:52, 18 January 2010 (EST)
              • That's good enough for me. You have to admit though, controlling elephants would make one hell of a carnival act.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:49, 18 January 2010 (EST)
                • i was thinking more of a circus, but we need to find out if the account is legit or not? --mc_hammark 08:01, 19 January 2010 (EST)
                  • It's listed on NBC's website as an official account, so yeah, I'm pretty sure he does have Empathic Manipulation. --midnightx10 03:13, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                    • Could you leave a link to where it says they're official, I can't find it... --mc_hammark 06:29, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                    • This is the link I found through google. It links back to 9th Wonders!, but I don't know that site well enough to find a link to the twitter account. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:28, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Empathic manipulation

I thought were basing on cannon sources (that's why we still have Healing Touch for Jeremy and Freezing for Tracy), we now have a canon source of what Joseph can do and it perfectly fits on Empathic Manipulation.

Explanation for Empathic Manipulation:

  1. Canon Source:
  1. Mohinder - He made Mohinder feels content or satisfied on what Joseph said making Mohinder leave the carnival and decided to abandon his research
  1. Near-Canon Source:
  1. Eli - on the graphic novel Joseph said that he can tell the real one from the clones. If the clones doesn't have a blood if they were injured surely they don't have emotions as well
  2. Doyle - on one of the ending on an istory Joseph made Doyle loss focus and passes out, I think he pushed or make Doyle feels stress that's why he losses his focus and can't control his ability and in the end have a health breakdown (passes out) or he made him feel pain and in the end passes out

The examples were just my theory and can be wrong, but we now have the list as a canon source right. We change Mrs. Comey ability name because of the same list that Edgar made why not do the same for Joseph? --Darkfiremaster13 04:21, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Joseph was listed as controlling emotions, if we're to name his ability based on that list, we should list him as having "emotion control". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:28, 21 January 2010 (EST)

  • The issue with that is that there is already a ...sort of canonically named ability (empathic manipulation) which is described as the ability to control the emotions of others. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:51, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    • Given that Syn Ander's was kinda created by Habbo, I'd consider the list as more canon her AT profile. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:14, 21 January 2010 (EST)
      • Joseph can control emotions? Syn Anders can also control emotions after touching someone. The only difference is the touch. And as we know abilities evolves did Tracy's touching requirements for her freezing. And Joseph would of had many hears to master his ability. --"The Listener" 10:15, 21 January 2010 (EST)
        • I know it's a typo, but I can't help but laugh at the fact you put "hears" instead of "years" Listner, given your name... lol :) --mc_hammark 10:19, 21 January 2010 (EST)
          • It's Empathic manipulation. You can't really debate the name. Yes, I know that name kind of sucks, and that it came from a Habbo, but let's just deal with it. I don't know why it's down for a name change when all we have to do is just MERGE them together. I say let's go ahead and do it since Empathic manipulation is controlling emotions. So do we really want to make this process harder than it needs to be? --OutbackZack 15:06, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Thanksgiving

I know its been brought up before but in Thanksgiving...

You need to calm down" - Joseph


(Samuel starts to calm down after being really angry)


"Stop manipulating me, controlling my emotions" - Samuel (says something along those lines)


"You want me to let go? Fine I'll let go" - Joseph


(Samuel becomes angry again)


Lets think about that? --"The Listener" 05:31, 23 January 2010 (EST)

It only makes me more in favor of Empathic Manipulation --Dark Master 05:39, 23 January 2010 (EST)

  • Just rewatched and yes, seems like he controlled his emotions. But surprises me he don't control him when he tries to kill him :p -- (WaterRatj) 08:07, 23 January 2010 (EST)
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