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Talk:Enhanced strength

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Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine enhanced strength's name.
Source/Explanation
Micah and Niki both explicitly refer this ability as "super strength" in Powerless.

Examples

  • I don't think Niki broke the guard's baton in Godsend. I think Jessica took over briefly to keep from getting hit; her expression changed, and Niki didn't seem to understand how she ended up with a broken baton in her hands. They flipped back and forth rapidly in that episode, all apparently at Jessica's discretion. --Ted C 09:43, 23 January 2007 (EST)
    • I really am a bit frustrated that we're saying Niki broke the baton, since my viewing of the seen has Jessica breaking it and leaving Niki holding the pieces. Anyone else have an opinion on this? --Ted C 12:20, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • I agree, but I get the impression we're a distinct minority. To me, it looks like Jessica's face when she grabs it, and Niki's face when she realizes it's broken.--Hardvice (talk) 12:22, 23 January 2007 (EST)
        • I agree with both of you, actually. That was exactly what I assumed it was when I watched the episode. (Admin 12:30, 23 January 2007 (EST))
      • My impression exactly. I've basically toned down the language in the article without completely discounting the assertion that it was Niki. --Ted C 12:29, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • The reason I was so convinced that it was Niki is that it seemed she was very surprised that she could do that and there was never that switch-to-Jessica moment. I watched that moment about eight times to make sure. As an actor, it looked looked like Ari was trying not to look too intense when she caught the baton. Finally, the only reason to include the scene is that it's a significant moment - Niki discovering her strength. --Fcphantom 13:42, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • When watching, I saw what I considered to be a rather telling change in expression on Niki's face just before she grabbed the baton. Niki was simply surprised to find herself holding two pieces of baton instead of lying on the floor with a new bruise. I just don't seen any compelling evidence that Niki accessed the power. --Ted C 13:44, 23 January 2007 (EST)
        • In any case, I'm fine with it being ambiguous, but I'd be willing to bet I'm right :-) --Fcphantom 13:52, 23 January 2007 (EST)
          • I'm always willing to be convinced by the evidence. --Ted C 14:10, 23 January 2007 (EST)
            • I might be putting my foot in my mouth if I'm proved wrong next week, but I really believe that it was Niki who broke the baton. It was Niki who was getting emotional, not Jessica - and Jessica has really only appeared to serve a purpose - breaking the baton seemed to be purely emotional, no purpose involved. Watching it again, it looks to me like Niki is only shocked that she was able to access the power, not that she blacked out for a moment. (Further, I think that Niki accessing her power would be a really good direction for her character, but that's neither here nor there.)

              That said, we obviously have some differing opinions, and the episode was not very clear. To say it's definitely Niki or Jessica is speculative, I guess. I like the language that's in the article space now. It's ambiguous in the caption, and it's clear in the example that we just don't know. I say we leave it at that until we learn that Niki is either Hulk Hogan or just a dud. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:09, 23 January 2007 (EST)

              • That's just where I wanted to go. I'm not dreadfully attached to my interpretation of the scene, but I think it's just as valid as the "Niki did it" interpretation, so the write-up needs to be ambiguous until we have more information. --Ted C 16:51, 23 January 2007 (EST)
              • I dunno, dude. Looks like a pretty Jessicaesque expression to me: --Hardvice (talk) 03:19, 24 January 2007 (EST)
                • I watched it again frame-by-frame. I think our problem stems from a bad edit from the shot where she grabs the baton (very Jessica-like expression, pictured above), to where she breaks the baton (more Niki-like). When she's holding the baton level and actually snapping it she looks more like Niki. --Fcphantom 11:16, 24 January 2007 (EST)
                • I doubt we'll get any confirmation of this particular incident. We'll just have to look to future episodes to see if Niki displays super strength again. --Ted C 11:26, 24 January 2007 (EST)
                  • I read somewhere (it was an official source, too) that it was confirmed that Niki did infact manifest the power, although I'm not sure where... - Are you on the list? Kaiser 13:50, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                    • I happen to agree with you that it was Niki, not Jessica. Can you find that official source? The only official sources I know of are the episodes themselves and possibly the graphic novels. If somebody said it in an interview, it wouldn't necessarily be taken as "an official source", but should definitely be noted. But since I happen to personally agree with you on this ambiguous point, I'd love to read the comments made by somebody involved in production, or whereever you found the confirmation. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:05, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                    • It's Leonard Roberts and Jack Coleman in the video commentary. I'd say that it makes it probably true, but considering how little they tell these actors about what's really going on, you never can tell. Still not a canon source, though.--Hardvice (talk) 14:46, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                    • I'm going with Niki. Because there is no way Jessica would lose control over Niki that fast. If it was Jessica, then Niki appearing afterwards doesn't make sense from what we know of Jessica (at that time), Jessica would most likely attack the guard, and then maybe relinquish control of Niki. Dman dustin

Enhanced Toughness

As noted already, a certain amount of superhuman durability is inherently required to apply enhanced strength: if you're muscles can apply enough force to bend a steel bar, but your bones can't withstand that force, you'll break your own limbs. Jessica is obviously tough enough to withstand her own uses of her strength, but Fallout showed that her toughness extends to resisting certain kinds of attacks: when DL hit her hard in the body with the flat of a shovel blade, she got back up immediately, and neither she nor Niki showed any sign of injury. --Ted C 13:11, 13 December 2006 (EST)

I pulled the following example as a follow up to changing the Limits description.

  • Jessica takes a hard blow to the belly from a swung shovel without apparent injury. (Fallout)

We can put it back if we get more evidence of superhuman toughness. --Ted C 15:30, 4 January 2007 (EST)

No, I think it's fine to leave it out. It doesn't really show her "strength", just her toughness. (PS - I've taken a shovel hit before and survived - and "enhanced strength" is not my superpower.) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:55, 4 January 2007 (EST)
Yes, but did you walk around afterward as if nothing happened? --Ted C 00:00, 5 January 2007 (EST)
Oh, sure - and I ran a marathon right after. Exhilarating! :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Enhanced Reflexes

I'm tempted to take out the "enhanced reflexes" note and move it to Theories, since there's no real evidence that Jessica has superhuman speed or reflexes. --Ted C 17:07, 14 December 2006 (EST)

  • I'd say so, too. There's also a lot of discussion regarding consequential powers. Like Jessica needing enhanced durability because super strength requires she not injure herself or Nathan needing durability, too, to withstand supersonic flight. I think we'll find Nathan can be injured just as easily as someone else, but whether it's true or not is just a theory. I dont think we should speculate in the main articles on these consequential powers and just discuss their proven powers for the time being. (Admin 17:13, 14 December 2006 (EST))
    • Well, since I wrote the claims, I'll note that Jessica would injure her own arm trying to pull the door off a safe if her bones, joints, and muscles couldn't withstand the force. We also have the related evidence of DL smacking her with a shovel and doing nothing more than knock her down by sheer momentum. Enhanced reflexes aren't inherently required to use enhanced strength, and she hasn't done anything to demonstrate superior reflexes. --Ted C 17:39, 14 December 2006 (EST)
      • It's true that her super strength requires the durability as a natural consequence, but it's unclear currently whether it's a power that merits specific mention or whether we're expected to just suspend disbelief. If we accept the consequential powers then with the strength she has she might technically be able to stop bullets with her hand, but then she becomes virtually invulnerable and I suspect that wasn't their intention. My view is that as a result it's still speculation since they haven't addressed these consequential powers. How does everyone else feel? (Admin 17:50, 14 December 2006 (EST))
        • We have to remember that we're just giving a name to each power. The power Nathan has (which we have named "flight"), for instance, might be more than just the act of levitating and flying - there might be something inherently built in to help him resist injury while he's flying — but all that's speculation. We just call it what we call it, and make notes about it. We do know (based on what Mr. Bennet told Sylar) that Jessica only has one power. We call it "enhanced strength". But that doesn't mean her power can't include some other attributes along with being really strong. But again - speculation. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:22, 14 December 2006 (EST)
  • I think I tossed in that note about the reflexes. I had tried to support it with evidence -- the fact being that she killed a room full of people within a very short period of time that Ando and Hiro were out of the money launderer's main room. The D.L./Jessica fights (particular the one at their house) also seemed to show Jessica "sped-up", she was moving pretty swiftly and caught D.L. quite off guard until he had time to react to what was happening. So, I don't think it's a theory, I think it's an observation. I'm not attached to this POV, though; I guess the line between theory and proof is thin -- Xanen 20:10, 14 December 2006 (EST)
    • I'm just not seeing that her reflexes are enhanced. She usually has the element of surprise, since people don't expect meek little Niki to suddenly rip their arms off. Furthermore, she's not afraid to use guns, which would help in the mass combats. If we see a real indication of superhuman reflexes, then I'm all for adding them in, but I haven't seen her do anything superhuman in that regard, yet. --Ted C 22:51, 14 December 2006 (EST)
      • The fact that Jessica killed a room full people in a short period of time is just because she moves fast and gets the job done. Jessica doesn't dilly daddle with her head in the clouds like "Oh whatever, I'll just take my time and enjoy killing them. And if I get caught then oh well." Jessica works in secret and when she has a goal, she strives to get it done, no questions asked and will take down anyone or anything that gets n her way. She simply has to move fast, especially in that situation, remember that at that time she had left in the middle of the night and had to be back quickly or D.L. would be suspicious. And with her superhuman strength, she can get things done quickly. Jessica isn't stupid. When she was battling D.L., she had to get it done fast because Micah was in the house and needed to leave quicky. As with the baton and the police officer, Jessica had to defend Niki and herself and she saw it coming and didn't want to get hit because it would hurt Niki when she was in control. I don't think they have superhuman reflexes. Elemental5293 18:03, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Niki and the Baton, round 17

Peter?

In Five Years Gone, when Peter was making his way towards the interrogation room, did he use super-strength on that one Homeland Security agent? I'm not exactly sure. DannyP 00:30, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

  • Possibly. May have also been telekinesis. I don't remember if he even touched the guy or not. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
    • I just watched the scene and Peter was touching him. He grabbed him, spun around, and threw him against the wall. Peter probably did use enhanced strength. He is always around Niki, being his girlfriend.--Ice Vision 00:57, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
      • I think he used space-time manipulation, since that looked like a super-speed spin. Doesn't necessarily mean he didn't use enhanced strength, too, though. --Ted C 10:35, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
        • Space-time manipulation has never been used like that. Besides, the audio and visual cues would've been used if it were space-time manipulation. And the spin wasn't that fast. DannyP 20:21, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Would it be reasonable to conclude that Peter absorbed this power from Niki in How to Stop an Exploding Man (and then used it to pound Sylar a bit)? --Ted C 09:26, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

Unaired scene from The Hard Part

Did you guys see the unaired scene from The Hard Part where Jessica goes all ape-s••• on Linderman's archives? She pushes over a display, and D.L. gets into an argument with some dude. Crazy. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

How To Stop An Exploding Peter

  • I swear that Peter was using enhanced strength while he was punching Sylar right after Niki totally PWNED Sylar with a parking meter. Jason Garrick 22:05, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

Image Request

Could someone please upload a clean image of Niki holding the parking meter? --Ted C 14:51, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Super Strength.

Canonical name stated by Micah in Powerless, wink wink nudge nudge say no more!--Riddler 00:26, 4 December 2007 (EST)

  • Snap-snap, grin-grin, wink-wink, say no more?--Riddler 02:11, 4 December 2007 (EST)
  • Enhanced and Super means the same thing. I don't think this one warrants such a major rehaul in the name. --Piemanmoo 02:17, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • Hey, it's what they said. We have to go with the canonical source, according to the naming conventions, ala Lightning and Replication (which, by the way, means the same thing as Duplication WHICH is the common comic book name). The way I see it, we keep replication, we have to retitle this page.--Riddler 02:20, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • I concur for the these reasons, the other word being used by canon requires the change SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:23, 4 December 2007 (EST)
        • Know what I mean, say no more!--Riddler 17:46, 4 December 2007 (EST)
          • If there is no primary-level (Episodic) reference to this power being Enhanced Strength, then the naming conventions of Heroes Wiki would require the name to be changed to Micah's primary-level (Episodic) name of Super Strength. Shouldn't be any arguements, if their is no primary-level quotations of E.H. (plus it sounds better and is a more mainstream description anyway.) --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/4/2007 17:57 (EST)
            • No complaints from me. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2007 (EST)
              • Remember that Micah is an 11 year old kid who stays at home and reads comic books... he would call it super strength. But Enhanced strength would make more sense for an older crowd. And they are the same thing so why are we even having this conversation?... we rename things too much--.Vault 20:30, 4 December 2007 (EST)
                • The minute we start placing judgments on our characters' knowledge base and ignoring things they say because they're "just a kid", we enter dangerous territory. We rightfully renamed photographic reflexes "muscle mimicry" based on Micah's comments, and if he reads comic books, I would take his word over most characters. But if they're the same thing, what does it matter that we rename it? Does it hurt anything to rename it? We rename things based on new information from the show--as the show progresses, so does our site. I'm certainly glad we renamed Mr. Bennet "Noah Bennet", and Betty "Candice Willmer", and muscle mimicry "adoptive muscle memory". If there's a serious concern with renaming articles, I'd like to hear it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2007 (EST)
  • I beleive it been called just plain ol' "strength" many times in the show. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 20:46, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • Hiro called Charlie's power "Very Big Memory" in an episode. Should we change that one as well? --Piemanmoo 21:23, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • This is what I'm trying to get at. ;)--Riddler 21:25, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • I wouldn't be opposed to that. However, I think that was a joke from the writers. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:27, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Micah's power has always been called Talking to Machines, so wha about that one too? Where are we going to draw the line?--Piemanmoo 21:44, 4 December 2007 (EST)

  • Where do you want to draw the line? It seems to me like you're trying to stir up controversy or contention. As far as I know, nobody has argued that the name of Micah's or Charlie's power should be changed. I feel as though you're searching for examples of problems in power names where there really are none. If you think a name should be changed, then by all means suggest it on the appropriate page. If there is general consensus, then it will be changed. If not, then it won't. It's really pretty simple. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:47, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • I'm just trying to use these as examples. I don't think changing Charlie or Micah's powers for those reasons would make much sense. I'm just saying that the curret power naming conventions should be taken with a grain of salt. If we were to stick by the literal, by-the-books, 100% accurate, no interpretations version of the conventions, about half of the power names would be changed right now. I think if anything needs a rehaul, it's the naming conventions. It seems like they stir up more debates than they extinguish.--Piemanmoo 22:09, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • Put VERY well. My personal opinion is that using something out of someones speech, unless it is a direct naming of the power, shouldn't be used to decide the powers name. For example, I know that Liquefaction is on the brink of being changed because it was stated that they could "Melt things." That's like saying saying Technopathy is "Machine Talking" because Micah said he could talk to machines, yet we use Technopathy because it is the correct term. I agree very much with Pieman in that the conventions, though they may not be needed to change directly, they need to be amended.--Riddler 22:32, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • I disagree. People still come in suggesting "electrokinesis" and a bunch of other misnamed "-kinesis"es, and our naming conventions makes it very easy to say "no" when appropriate. Debate is not a bad thing, especially when it comes to the wiki. It helps people (including me, of course) think outside their own preconceived ideas of what something should be or look like. Discussion is the backbone of the wiki, and it sometimes takes the form of debate when people have wildly varying opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with renaming articles to be more in line with Heroes, and less bent towards fan opinions and speculation. I understand why you are using Micah and Charlie as examples. Playing Devil's Advocate can be a very good tool for making a point. But the most amount of negative debate in the above conversation seems to be coming from you, and that's not very helpful. If you have a suggestion for how to rehaul the naming conventions, I think I speak for the other administrators in saying that we're open to suggestions. That doesn't mean we won't have a counterargument, but we'll certainly listen to and consider whatever plan you present. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:30, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • It's a good point that Piemanmoo makes (even though it could use a little more tact :) ). I think technopathy is a much more appropriate term than "talking to machines" despite it being how Micah refers to his ability so we may need to try to find a set of guidelines where an obviously better term can take precedence. If not then we return to all power names being completely debatable despite their source (and the naming conventions become meaningless). This isn't something we need to solve immediately, but we should try to solve it soon. (Admin 22:33, 4 December 2007 (EST))
        • I certainly agree, it's not a perfect system, and I don't have a suggestion on how to handle names like technopathy where a descriptive name is clearly better than what Micah may have called it. Perhaps we should look at the context of the canon source, or see if the character was naming the power, referring to it with whatever words he could, or simply speaking about it conversationally. I don't know if there's a straightforward solution. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:45, 4 December 2007 (EST)
          • Yeah, I definitely don't think it's going to be cut and dry. Until the policy can be analyzed and adapted I definitely agree we should keep the existing names as they are rather than going with what at least I would consider to be poorer (albeit found in canonical sources) names. It sounds like we agree there's a flaw in the current convention strategy and I'm confident we can all put some effort into it and tweak it so that we end up with a deterministic process for identifying the official name of the ability here. Like everything else here, there's always room for improvement! :) Actual suggestions for changes to the policy should of course go on Help talk:naming conventions as I believe Ryan made reference to previously. (Admin 22:49, 4 December 2007 (EST))
          • Here's how I see it. Micah says that St. Joan is a "Muscle Mimic" in relation to Monica. Acceptable ability name. Then, Mohinder says to Monica (to my memory) "You're the first to show Adoptive Muscle Memory." The scientific name would take precedence. However, in other cases, Sylar says something to the effect of "I can freeze things." He's stating what he can do, rather than a name for the power, thus in this case I believe we should skip to level two (or further) in the naming conventions.

Summary: If the power is explicitly named, we go with that, with a scientific name taking precedence. If it's only mentioned as an adjective, we find the best description.--Riddler 22:55, 4 December 2007 (EST)

  • It's going to be more complicated than that. If you're interested in discussing it, let's continue this on Help talk:naming conventions where it belongs. (Admin 23:04, 4 December 2007 (EST))
    • Uh, guys, I think you should call it super strength. In the comic book world, enhanced strength is used. Enhanced strength is merely above than average human strength while superhuman or just super strength is well beyond above and beyond average human strength. Look at it. Someone with enhanced strength would be able to deliver harder and stronger than normal blows and lift heavy objects to an extent, right. Someone with enhanced, that is above-average human or Olympic strength, should not be able to tear people in half and punch through people, pull a safe door off with their bare hands, break restraints that could hold down an elephant, bend steel bars, thorw and lift people off their feet as if they were rags and punch down or through thick doors. I think Micah just described it right. I think that if the show didn't have to worry about the cost of visual effects, Tim Kring probably would have had Niki and Jessica throwing cars, crushing and flattening solid objects with their fingers, and punching and running through brick walls. Same goes for Monica. There is no point in calling it adoptive muscle mimicry. Just take away the pointless adoptive. Or you can just call it photographic reflexes. You can either call Charlie's power, eidetic memory, superhuman memory, or photographic memory. That's where it doesn't matter. Elemental5293 17:44, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Rename

Since Knox's AT says that he has "enhanced strength," should we rename this to "enhanced strength?" The Company's terminology trumps Micah's comic book knowledge, No? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:55, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I agree. However, even Niki called it that. My thought is that Knox may not have the same ability as Niki, and should go under "enhanced strength" by itself, whereas Niki's ability stays as super strength. It appears that fear enhances Knox's strength, whereas Niki was just buff like that.--Bob (talk) 20:57, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Mohinder called it super strength in The Second Coming.--Referos 18:43, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
      • He was also referring to a different ability. --Bob (talk) 19:04, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
        • I mean when he was arguing with Maya in Isaac's loft, before he injected himself. He said something like "each individual's blood chemistry is unique...these abilities could manifest in an infinite number of ways...flight, telepathy, super strength..."--Referos 21:09, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
          • Ah, I get you. Like I said, I still think that Knox's ability will not be the same as Niki and Jessica's, so the Company's AT labeling his ability "enhanced strength" can apply to his, and "super strength" can apply to Jessica and Niki's ability. This way, there is a canon source for both without conflict.--Bob (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
            • Hey, I'm new here, if I can just put my two cents in...um...well, if you're thinking of Knox's power as a seperate power called "Enhanced Strength," perhaps it could be called "Fear-Enhanced Strength". I think that combines canon the Enhanced Strength mentioned on Knox's AT, and what Noah said. Just thought I'd put that out there... Super-Hiro 14:29, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
              • Thanks, Super-Hiro. We'll definitely keep Knox's power name as "enhanced strength" since it was so explicitly named in the assignment tracker profile. We won't mess with that one. We might end up distinguishing Niki's power as "super strength" if the two powers end up being wildly different...but what we'll probably do is simply expand the limits of the power as our understanding of it grows. It's kind of like telepathy--before we met Maury, all we knew of the power was that Matt could read the minds of others. As we progressed throughout the season, we learned that telepathy also has the capability of controlling the minds of others, of placing thoughts in their heads, and even trapping people in their nightmares. I have a feeling that as we see what Knox can do, we'll just expand our understanding of the limits of enhanced strength. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:59, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
                • Okay, fair enough. Just saying IF there is a new article needed for Knox's ability at some point, I think instead of "Enhanced Strength," "Fear Enhanced Strength," would be kinda good for clarity's sake, and it still follows the name conventions, I think Super-Hiro 15:37, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
                  • I second Super-Hiro on this one, i don't think enhanced strength is descriptive enough, and canon or not, i believe Fear Enhanced Strength fits it better just so the general population isn't confused. My vote is Fear Enhanced Strength.--Pbmarcano 00:16, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Split

So I made the rename tag a split, because I believe that Knox's ability is different than Niki/Jessica's. For instance, Knox can feel people's fear, and stated the fear around him makes him stronger. Noah has also stated this to Claire. I agree that the strength aspect is shared, but fear-detection is new, as is the source of the strength. In addition to this, we have a canon source naming Knox's ability (the AT) and one naming Jessica/Niki's (from Micah, Niki and Mohinder). Does anyone else agree that these two abilities are different? If so, do you think that Knox's ability should be named "Enhanced strength"? I feel it's sufficient because it appears that fear enhances his strength, and the AT explicitly states his ability's name.--Bob (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I agree that they are definitely different abilities. I just wish that Enhanced Strength wasn't canon... I want something more descriptive like Fear Absorption. But canon trumps all so I'd split the pages as Enhanced Strength and Super Strength.
    • While they are very different, I'd prefer we kept the two pages together until we knew exactly how Knox's powers worked. --Piemanmoo 01:40, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
      • I'm not so sure they are different. I think we're learning of a different aspect of the ability that Niki/Jessica never knew how to access. I definitely think they should be kept together on the same page, and the differences should be explained in the article. On pages like the list of abilities, or the lead description of this page, a description should be used that aptly describes both powers: "the ability to exert greater than normal physical force" is fine for both. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
        • I think it's a bit speculative to say that Niki/Jessica could feel fear. Knox made it very clear that he could feel an individual's fear, and in addition to that, that he "absorbs" the fear of others to make him stronger. That's vastly different than Jessica or Niki, who just exerted great amounts of force. There was never a mention about fear or feeling fear around them, but it's a very specific comment made by Knox, as well as something known by the Company. Just my thought, but I really do feel that they're different.--Bob (talk) 02:00, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
          • Personally, I believe super strength = enhanced strength. And given that we've seen "enhanced strength" on an assignment tracker in the show I'd advocate renaming super strength to enhanced strength and using it for both Niki and Knox. This would be similar to say Mohinder providing a new name for something already named in the show. There's a subjective canon vs canon determination that we've made in the past, too. I don't see a minor difference like Knox getting his strength from fear to be significant enough to warrant its own article, I think it simply needs to be documented as an aspect of Knox's manifestation of the ability. I think we're going to be seeing a lot more abilities which are the same but ever so slightly different and I think the writers are going to use the same name for the abilities so in the end we're going to end up doing it, too. (Admin 02:04, 30 September 2008 (EDT))
            • I also think that the abilities shouldn't be split as they're so similar (both forms of telepathy {dream and voice} are together). However, if enhanced strength is now an equally canon name, I think that we aught to use it now as it's broader and better encompasses Knox's ability. I also like that enhanced strength is a more scientific-sounding name (not that that matters).--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:07, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
              • It was listed on the Knox's assignment tracker as seen in the episode itself therefore as it pertains to Knox it is definitely canon. I would also say that if Niki had an assignment tracker that said "enhanced strength" that we'd want to use it over the "super strength" that Niki and Micah called it. People like Mohinder and The Company get preferential treatment when it comes to the names they use for the abilities. All that being said, the question is whether people are comfortable with using "enhanced strength" as a canonical name for Niki's ability as well. I think it's kind of stretching the policies a little, but if there were consensus I think it would be alright (I'm in favor of it myself). Regardless of whether we renamed Niki's ability (as displayed on Niki Sanders for instance) to enhanced strength or not, I'd still advocate renaming the article itself (which I feel should include both Knox and Niki) to "enhanced strength" (with a redirect for super strength) since if we pick a single name for the ability then we're better off going with The Company's term over a term used by laycharacters. (Admin 03:15, 30 September 2008 (EDT))
                • I agree with the rename to "enhanced strength", and I agree with the single article for both characters.
          • Bob, I don't think Niki/Jessica could feel fear, and I hope you don't think I was suggesting that. I also don't think these are two separate powers, but rather two aspects of the same power, or two separate ways the power manifests itself in two separate individuals (three, I guess, if you count the Sanderses as two people). I think we could keep the same page for both characters, and explain the differences in the body of the article. The descriptions in the infobox and on the list of abilities should read something like "the ability to exert greater than normal strength" or something like that. It's definitely what Jessica can do, and it's definitely what Knox can do. Then the differences (that Knox can sense fear and he uses it enhance his strength) should be explained in the Limits section.... To me, it's very similar to how we handled cloning and telepathy (for a time). Evan and Julien have the same basic power, but with very different limits. Maury and Matt could do the same basic thing, but Maury had progressed far beyond what his son could ever do (at first). The powers are the same, but the limits are different for each character. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:29, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
            • I think that the two powers are very different. Knox even states during the bank robbery that he is all juiced up and he can sense fear. Niki couldn't do that. I think there should be a split. Should we have a consensus for a name change or a split... or both?Jason Garrick 12:34, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
              • What Ryan is saying, and I definitely concur, is that the powers are actually not very different. They're small differences in exactly how the power manifests that do not necessarily warrant separate articles but simply an explanation on a single ability page explaining how they each use and activate their power differently. Flint and Meredith are both pyrokinetic, but we don't split the abilities out just because his flames are blue and hers are orange. They're minor differences and are best documented with a single page. (Admin 12:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT))

Well, good arguments from people. Personally I don't mind. I was originally going to say I think a split would be good, as the latest Graphic Novel makes it quite clear the fear sensing is a specific part of his ability, which gives him the strength, which is quite a bit different than Niki/Jessica, who just had the ability. But now I'm not so sure... Super-Hiro 13:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I understand the arguments, but I just don't see how something like "sensing fear" is something that's a minute difference. The difference between cloning for Evan and Julien is a matter of how they come out, but we're talking about a completely different aspect to the ability. If sensing someone's fear was all that Knox did, this would be an ability in and of itself. The difference between telepathy is because of what Maury told Matt, that he too had the ability. I know I won't win this argument, but I still think that the fact he a) feels fear, and b) can absorb fear makes this a very different ability.--Bob (talk) 14:27, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Minor difference or major difference, sensing fear is only a part of Knox's ability. It's how he gets his strength. The basic abilities of Knox and Niki/Jessica--that of enhanced strength--is the same. They seem to access their strength differently, but that doesn't mean that they're different powers. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:52, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
      • I think a good example is the Cloning ability. Even the mechanics of it are different between Julien and Evan, but it's still the same ability so we document it in a single article and simply explain the differences in how they manifest. (Admin 16:55, 30 September 2008 (EDT))
  • I also understand both of the arguments though right now I am more leaning towards the argument of having them split to Super strength and Enhanced strength. The way I see it is even the given names, though similar, separate the abilities. 'Super Strength' implies that someone is naturally and always extra powerful while 'Enhanced strength' implies that some source is increasing (enhancing) the strength, which in Knox's case would be fear. Another difference between the two would be that with super strength would seem to have set amount of strength, albeit a large amount, while enhanced strength would vary depending on the source that is doing the enhancing. Due to these reasons I have begun to lean towards the side arguing to have them split. The Shadow 14:38, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • Shadow makes an extremely good point. I agree with him completely. Jason Garrick 14:59, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • With the arguments above, I to think that Knox's strength is different that Niki/Jessica's. Minor or major difference as it may be that Knox's strength is, as he says, derived from the fear of others, I think it is significant enough that it warrants the split. Also, the "Fear sensing" bit on it's own would warrant an article, would it not? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • Since we don't know the limits of either, I think they are different powers in the strength aspect (putting aside that the fear sensing is clearly different). Knox's strength is based on how much fear he can absorb from those around him, so if he was facing someone who wasn't afraid, or was by himself and, let's say, needed to lift something extremely heavy, I would think he wouldn't have any excess strength at all (ie - not be able to access his power and be within the noraml strength range for his body type), whereas Jessica/Niki seemed to always have access to the full extent of her strength (sans virus or Niki's emotional woes). Conversely, while Jessica's strength was capped at whatever it normally was, Knox's probably has a greater upper limit, if there were enough scared people (eg - a football stadium full of terrified individuals...or if Knox was paired up with someone with Guillame's ability (Bliss & Horror)). We also don't know if their strengths are complementary or not... Peter has absorbed both, so does he start out with Niki's strength, the fear around him adding to that, or does the fear that it takes Knox to get to Niki's strength level not affect Peter, only giving him additional strength after he reaches that limit? I'm on the fence as to whether this deserves a separate page or just a lot of notes on the one page (and on Knox's). I'm leaning toward the former since Peter was able to absorb both abiities, and it would look better if they were not stated as being the same.Stevehim 19:54, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • It's quite obvious that the two abilities are not one in the same, Niki has shown an excessive amount of strength while those around her were not afraid of anything, she always installed the fear. (ex. her in prison, her throwing linderman across the room in season 1) Knox on the other hand has been proven to be completely weak and needs to install fear within the people first before he gets strong. as shown in season 3 and graphic novels. the evidence is quite clear that the two abilities are not the same and this helps me prove that sometimes we need to steer away from our good old naming convention because sometimes canon sources just don't cut it...--Pbmarcano 22:12, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
    • I don't think that's obvious at all, but rather speculative. I don't know of a time that Knox was shown to be weak, or that he needs to instill fear. I agree that he feeds off the fear of others, but not that he is weak without fear. But even if that were true, the two powers are fundamentally the the same--both Knox and Jessica exhibit an enhanced amount of strength. They may get it from different places, but they power they exhibit is the same. It would be like if you were to live off a diet made up entirely of seafood, whereas I ate only vegetables. Our food might be different, but the our abilities to metabolize that food would be the same. This is an article about the characters' abilities, not what feeds those abilities. Sure, we should mention the differences, just as we mention the differences between all the characters who can paint the future. But just because one uses heroin and another uses a Walkman, or just because one draws like Tim Sale and one draws like Alex Maleev, that doesn't mean the powers are different. Just because one can access her strength whenever she wants, and the other uses the fears of others to get strong, that doesn't mean they have different abilities. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:44, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
      • While there is no indication that Knox is weak in the absence of fear, there's also no indication that he has any abnormal strength in that situation. HRG says Knox can 'absorb a person's fear and turn it into his own strength, incredible strength,' so the power actually has another component (ie - fear absorption). He uses his ability (the ability to absorb fear and convert it into strength) to give him additional might, but the enhanced strength is technically the ends, not the means (the means being absorption and conversion of fear). Many other powers, which are/can be used toward the same results are listed separately. Levitation and Telekinesis are both used to move objects with the mind. Aura absorption, Empathic Mimicry and Intuitive Aptitude are all used to absorb the abilities of others. Flight and Levitation (and Telekinesis) can all be used to defy gravity. Appearance Alteration and Illusion can both be used to change the appearance of someone else (as can Telepathy). Telepathy and Persuasion can both be used to control someone else's actions against their will. Etc etc. So while the results of using some of these powers can be the same, there are marked differences (eg - Telepathy can be used for other things too). I also wonder if Knox's ability is limited to strength, as there seems to be something going on with speed as well (or something, as there is a clear visual change when he kills The German and attacks Peter for the first time). Stevehim 07:18, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Every one of those powers you listed have been specifically as different abilities by in-world authorities (the Company, the Sureshes). But I'm also not suggesting that Knox has any abnormal strength in the absence of someone else's fear, just as I'm not suggesting (or the article isn't suggesting) that Niki/Jessica isn't strong without becoming her alter ego. What I am suggesting is that we explain the differences in the article itself. Noah himself said that Knox has "incredible strength", and his assignment tracker profile lists his ability as "enhanced strength". Even if it's not the perfect name for his power, it's still his power. Just as we did with telescopic vision--a name given to us by an assignment tracker profile, but which doesn't fully describe Donna's ability--we use the name given to us, and we explain what the person can do on the page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:24, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
          • But we currently are not using the name given to us by the assignment tracker, were using super strength when it clearly says enhanced strength. and Ryan, if he didn't need fear why do you think he uses jessie and flint to scare people, had he not need people being afraid than he would just reek havoc on his own. Also, Precognition between the two ARE exactly the same ability. The heroine or walkman do not give them their power. They were not getting their visions from each source they simply use them to relax their minds so they can paint it. And everything that Stevehim said i will also stand by, levitation and Telekinesis are similar but not the same as to niki and knox. similar, but not the same. Just cause 2 abilities have the same outcome does not mean that they should be catagorized as the same.--Pbmarcano 15:18, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

To the Wayback machine

I recall another argument similar to this that we had last year with regard to the electrical powers (Lightning, Electromagnetism, and Electrical absorption) at the Electromagnetism talk page. Might some wisdom from that be applied here? There are parallels between this and that debate: Agent (electromagnetism)|Agent]] could Levitate + shoot electricity, Elle could (as far as we could see) only shoot electricity; ergo, Agent has electromagnetism, a different ability than Elle's. Here: Niki/Jessica (from what we could see) can pull super strength feats at anytime, Knox can sense fear in others + (as he states) TURN that fear into enhanced strength; ergo, different abilities. We should have articles on each. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

The ol' consensus check.

Split

Don't Split

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