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{{power names|1|eos=[[Samuel Sullivan]] compared Emma's ability to Siren's song ([[Upon This Rock]])}}
{{power names|2|eos=The ability is explicitly called "'''enhanced synesthesia'''" in ''[[From the Files of Primatech, Part 1]]''}}
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== Two steps forward, three steps back ==
== Real "Disorder" Powers ==

Dr. Coolidge said that people who have a "disorder" such as deafness or blindness sometimes see sound as colors. This is a pretty easy "disorder" to turn into an ability (just make the noise source glow with light - easy). But Dr. Coolidge said that sometimes people can possibly hear numbers. That would be kind of hard to turn into an ability. How could they do that if they chose this instead of seeing sound as colors (I doubt they will make another disorder ability, which is why I said "instead").--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 17:25, 17 November 2009 (EST)

== It hasn't been shown for a while ==

I'm afraid we won't see Emma learn how to crack more walls. {{User:Altes/Signature}} 07:50, 5 December 2009 (EST)
*They'll prob bring her back to the show next episode. Think of it from a writer's point of view. The best time for Emma to begin a "relationship" with Peter would be after some tragic has happen. With the "death" of Nathan I would say now is a good time. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 08:02, 5 December 2009 (EST)
** We will, Emma is coming back, don't worry.--[[User:Kleith|Kleith]] 09:05, 5 December 2009

== Siren's Song ==

The current name is far too narrow after the events of ''Upon This Rock'', and the only canon name I can remember is "Siren's Song". Not a great name, but if nobody can think of a more appropriate name it'll have to do.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 22:35, 4 January 2010 (EST)
*Thing is Samuel said that was part of her ability but not her entire ability. He said her emotions controlled sound and gave them specific effects. I'm just guessing but I think Emotion Sound Manipulation works better in this case or something to that effect. I wonder if her ability is more than that though. I wonder if she can get whatever she wants through emotion and sound. Such as making someone fall asleep by wanting them to fall asleep and then playing the her Cello. Although I suppose Siren's Song works, but I don't know it sounds limiting, and Samuel was comparing Emma's ability to it but didn't specifically say that's her ability. I think the equivalent of emotion sound manipulation would work to describe her ability in its entirety. Her emotions control the sound produced and she's manipulating other aspects. Although Emotion Sound Manipulation exactly sounds weird, maybe someone can refine it a little better.--[[User:Dman dustin|Dman dustin]] 02:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)
**what about Empathic sound manipulation?--{{User:Yoshi n1/sig1}} 02:20, 5 January 2010 (EST)
*** I was thinking about that, but I didn't want it to seem like Lydia's ability or Peter's original ability. Although now mulling it over, I suppose it is better than "Emotion sound manipulation"--[[User:Dman dustin|Dman dustin]] 02:23, 5 January 2010 (EST)
**We were given a canon name however, we should probably take that into consideration. After all, freezing only covers about half of Tracy's ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:23, 5 January 2010 (EST)
***I vote for giving her the same ability as Echo and Jesse. It's basically the same thing, after all.--[[User:Gibbeynator|Gibbeynator]] 07:25, 6 January 2010 (EST)
**** No, they don't seem to have the same abilities. Echo/Jesse could only manipulate sound waves' frequency, amplitude and timbre. But Emma can somehow channel her own emotions into sound (specifically music). Anyway, we saw that Emma can't only create a Siren's song effect; we know she can channel her rage to produce a blast too. Samuel said that Emma's true ability was to make her emotions become one with the music, so what about "musical empathy" or "empathic musicality"?--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 09:11, 6 January 2010 (EST)
***** 'Musical Empathy' sounds good to me. She can't manipulate the sound, or even music, directly, but the music she plays takes on an effect depending on her emotions, and affects the emotions of those around her. If we don't think it's specifically music, but all sound, then perhaps 'Aural Empathy'? --[[User:EkimCF|EkimCF]] 12:01, 6 January 2010 (EST)
****** "Musical empathy" sounds pretty good actually :) I was thinking something along the lines of "Empathic synesthesia" ? -- {{User:Leckie/Signature 9}} 12:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*******My votes for Musical Empathy, just saying. -{{User:Vampirate68/sig}} | 15:26, 6 January 2010 (EST)
********Cellokinesis? Had to be done, sorry. In reality, I'm fine with musical empathy. I prefer "music" over "aural" because I doubt she can attract people with one sound, she most likely has to create some type of pattern. Whether it's banging on trash cans or playing in a symphony orchestra, it's music. Perhaps Enhanced musical empathy, because if I'm in the mood I can channel my emotions into music by sitting at the piano.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:43, 6 January 2010 (EST)
* A few notes as we think on this: "enhanced synesthesia" is not actually canon. We took a term that describes one who can see sounds (synesthetic) and applied it to a power name. Obviously, her power is FAR greater than just that. '''Siren's song''' is actually extremely appropriate of a name, in my opinion. [[Sound manipulation]] in the past has referred to someone who can manipulate the physical properties of sound, but not the effect it has on someone. Be careful in attaching "empathic" to this, as her empathic connection to her power is exhibited in a large quantity of characters, and isn't entirely definitive of the power itself. Additionally, her power appears to extend beyond simply music (she can see noise), so using "musical empathy" would not be entirely correct. Also note that "music" is a very loose definition of a type of noise (where do you draw the line between noise and music?). The strictest definition of her power is that she can 1) see sound, 2) manipulate it to create physical force, and 3) use it to attract or repel people without their conscious knowledge. '''Siren's song''' is the best fit I can see for this power, but something like '''sonic empathy''' or '''sonic hypnosis''' may theoretically be just as applicable. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 16:15, 6 January 2010 (EST)
**All three would work fine with me. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 16:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*** As a note, the fact that emotions are involved doesn't always warrant the word "empathy" in a name. In this situation, it's not even close to accurate. She's not empathizing with anyone, nor is she working with anyones emotions but her own. She can use the music in sync with her own emotions, not other peoples. The music just has an allure to it. So '''Siren's song''', though not the prettiest name, is the most accurate thing we have that is canon, but something to the effect of "Emotional sound manipulation" makes sense as well.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 16:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)
****I'll be fine with most of the aforementioned names, but I do think Siren's song is the best choice. It was explicitly said in an episode, so it's also the safest choice. Is there enough interest to start a consensus?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:30, 6 January 2010 (EST)
***** Though I agreed with it earlier, in retrospect, Siren's song ISN'T the best option. It doesn't explain that she can see the sounds and use them in a physical sense, i.e. the crack in the wall. A Siren's song only effects people in an alluring way. This is gonna be a tricky one. ''"The term "siren song" refers to an appeal that is hard to resist but that, if heeded, will lead to a bad result. "'' ''Noun 1. siren song - the enticing appeal of something alluring but potentially dangerous;''--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:22, 6 January 2010 (EST)
******So she can see sound, and manipulate it (cause it to crack walls or bring people in). Right? --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:32, 6 January 2010 (EST)
******The way the ability seems to work is this: She can see sound as color (which appears to be a side-effect of her ability, rather then the focus of the ability itself), and manipulate sounds depending on how she feels. If she's angry, she can damage things, if she's hopeful, she can attract people. Although more superpower then evolutionary adaptation, there's a lot they can do with this ability. Ideally, I think the name needs to mention sound, emotions, and the conversion taking place. The most basic name I could think of then was "Sonic emotional conversion", but that doesn't sound quite right. There's also "Temperamental sonic manipulation", "Temperamental sonokinesis", "Emotion-based sound manipulation..... I'm honestly not great at coming up with names, but it's a place to start.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:33, 6 January 2010 (EST)
******* I'm gonna put more support into Emotional sound manipulation, with something to this effect as the description: "Emma can see sounds as colorful lights, and through through her emotions, can manipulate them to cause physical damage, such as the crack in her wall, or entice people."--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:36, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*Is it possible that she also has Sound Manipulation, but due to her being deaf, it evolved to where she can see it? As I recall from some sort of Heroes Evolution thing, the ability helped Echo be a DJ. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:38, 6 January 2010 (EST)
** Not likely, by our definition, anyway. Since "Sound manipulation" itself was given through assignment trackers to describe Echo and Jesse's ability, we couldn't use that name. Their ability is to produce different vocal sounds. She manipulates external sounds. It's a shame that they used that name, since Sound manipulation is much more fitting here. On that note though, since "Precognition" and "Precognitive dreaming" are separate, we can have "Sound manipulation" and "Emotional sound manipulation" at the same time.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:42, 6 January 2010 (EST)
***Well "sound" is after all "sound" no matter what sort of sound it is. After all, we have Knox with Enhance strength but he can feel and smell fear. I know it was canon, but it goes to show that abilities do have minor side effects that produces another sense. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:45, 6 January 2010 (EST)
**** Though I'm using Knox as an example below, what you're thinking of is drastically different. Knox's ability is still enhanced strength, even though he needs fear to access it. The fear enhances his strength. With Jesse and Echo, they produce sounds via their voice. With Emma, she makes sounds through musical instruments. Very, very different. Sound manipulation would definitely work for her ability, but since it's already used and canonically, we can't change it.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*****That why you would merge the two together. She's manipulating sound, Sound manipulation. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:57, 6 January 2010 (EST)
****** Missing my point entirely. We can't merge them, since they're drastically different abilities. Similar to all the electricity based abilities, and technology based abilities... and the fire based abilities... and the persuasion based abilities... etc. They're similar, but not the same, so we can't merge them, and since Echo and Jesse have a canon source, they get priority for the name.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 21:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)
******* I feel you're missing my point. I'm saying she's manipulating sound, that's Sound manipulation. There would nothing wrong with her ability page being merged with the current Sound manipulation page. Knox and Nikki, same ability, but yet different. That's what I'm getting out of this. The only different is she can see it (something that came out of being deaf).--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)
******** Trust me, I see what you're saying, but we ''can't''. Knox and Nikki can be merged since they have the same ability with different mechanisms. Emma IS manipulating sound, but it's a different ability than Echo and Jesse. They're not really manipulating sound, they're manipulating their voices, but their ability was canonically named. We HAVE to keep that. And because she has a different ability entirely and the name "Sound manipulation" is taken, we need to have a different name for it. If we could merge these, we could merge [[Fire breathing]] with [[Pyrokinesis]], [[Teleportation]] with [[Space-time manipulation]], [[Electric manipulation]] with [[Electrical absorption]] and more.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 21:10, 6 January 2010 (EST)
********* This came from Echo's AT: ''A sound manipulator, Echo can mimic and distort noise, replicate frequencies, and create sonic blasts of devastating proportions. Echo has noticed that his ability to manipulate sound increases greatly when his fight-or-flight reflex is engaged. He seems to regard his ability to manipulate sound in all its forms as both a blessing and a curse, and he actively continues to explore the extent of his power.''It gives off the impression it's more than his voice that he manipulates.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:14, 6 January 2010 (EST)
********** Echo has only been seen and noted to use his voice, and we're not going with his assignment tracker anyway. Jesse's was shown on the show, and is what the name is based on. We've only seen him use his voice as well. It's safe to assume that that's what it means. Their ability is drastically different from Emma's.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 21:20, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*********** With next week's episode focusing on Emma and her ability, I think it would be a safe bet to wait and see what else she does before we try to name, rename, or merge this ability. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:18, 6 January 2010 (EST)
************I really wouldn't mind if we waited I suppose, but we did take advanced action in naming Damien's ability. If what she does in the next episode clashes with a name we've chosen, it can be changed fairly quickly.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:40, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*Ok, I haven't been around, and speed reading isn't my forte, so if I repeat what was already said, bear with me. Something everyone seems to have forgotten is that a Heroes Interactive called Emma's ability "a form of synesthesia". Whatever we do, we must maintain that to some degree. I don't think any of those music or aura names would work, cause they have no link to synesthesia. In an interview, wasn't it said that Emma ability would "cause effects on what she sees"? Since her ability seems to have quite some effects, this is like telepathy. I don't think we need to change the name, the "enhanced" pretty much says that she can do things that people with synesthesia can't, which isn't a wrong description, even if not pin-point accurate. Every effect her ability has stems from her one core effect: affecting the sound she sees as color. Telepathy has loads of effects, but we didn't change it cause all of the effects stem from a single core ability: pushing and pulling thoughts. And for those of you who brought/will bring to the discussion Knox, Tracy and Jeremy, I should remind you that discussions on those never ceases, there isn't an agreement on these cases as there is with other abilities, so arguments with those aren't really valid, since there is always some on going discussions on them. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:03, 8 January 2010 (EST)
** What about "synesthetic manipulation"? Is a better description (she can manipulate what she sees with her synesthesia) while keeping "synesthesia" in the name.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:48, 8 January 2010 (EST)
***Samuel likened her ability to a Siren's song and that's about the same level of canon as Heroes interactive. Also, this current name is incredibly unspecific, it's like calling Echo's power "enhanced voice". It's not incorrect, but there are more appropriate names.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 22:11, 8 January 2010 (EST)
****With the variety of effects her ability has, we need a name that's general enough to account for them. Enhanced accounts for them all. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 07:14, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*****We don't need a name that account for them all, "healing touch" doesn't account for all of Jeremy's ability and "freezing" doesn't account for all of Tracy's ability. It'd be nice to have such an accurate name but the current one is far too unspecific.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 13:14, 9 January 2010 (EST)
******Tracy and Jeremy are ongoing discussions, they don't count as arguments until both their cases are solved, and even though I hate it, that's not going to happen soon. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:48, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*******Jeremy's ability discussions have come to a halt, so I believe that Tracy's will as well. Moving on from that, Enhanced synesthesia comes from a secondary source, whereas "Siren's song" is from an episode, so it is a more appropriate name for the ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 09:50, 10 January 2010 (EST)

== Unofficial poll ==

This doesn't really count for anything and isn't a true consensus but I wanted to see where our community was at.

'''Keep as Enhanced synesthesia'''
--[[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:03, 8 January 2010 (EST) See reasons above.

'''Siren's song'''
#--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:41, 6 January 2010 (EST) - Only explicitly stated name. Siren's are described as beautiful winged woman that lured sailors to the rocky shores by singing alluring songs. Emma's music may be the allure and the sonic "blast" she created could be the rocks. Highly figurative, but I like the poetic nature of it.
#----[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 06:45, 7 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 14:14, 7 January 2010 (EST) - PJDEP put it best for me.

'''Musical empathy'''


'''Emotional sound manipulation'''
#--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:43, 6 January 2010 (EST) - For reasons stated above. Siren's song only notes the alluring aspect of her sound manipulation.
#:Freezing only denotes the freezing aspect of Tracy's ability, which clearly exceeds that description.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:56, 6 January 2010 (EST)
#::Another different situation. Her name is canonically and explicitly named through the document about her. We don't have a single explicit name for Emma's ability. Samuel likened her ability to a Siren's song, but that doesn't mean he was naming it.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:57, 6 January 2010 (EST)
#:::It's the closest thing we have to an explict name however. I'm not saying that makes it the best name, it's just something to keep in mind.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:33, 6 January 2010 (EST)
#:::: Her mother likening it to Synesthesia is what got us this name. Comparisons make not the name. :P--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 21:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)
#--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 20:45, 6 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 05:34, 7 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Ritamiller|Ritamiller]] 13:58, 7 January 2010 (EST)

'''Sonic emotional conversion'''


'''Sonic hypnosis'''


'''Sonic empathy'''
#--I'd choose Musical Empathy if it wasn't for the fact Emma's ability allows her to see any sound, not just music. See, feel and express her emotions through it... {{User:Altes/Signature}} 08:00, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--Ditto [[User:Hiroman|Hiroman]] 20:01, 9 January 2010 (EST)
#--While I like how Musical Empathy sounds, it doesn't fully describe this ability so I guess I'm with this name for now. -{{User:Vampirate68/sig}} | 23:58, 9 January 2010 (EST)

'''Sonic manipulation'''
#-- The reasons that [[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] put forward. (see bottom of page) --{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 14:53, 11 January 2010 (EST)

== Emotional sound manipulation ==

Just gonna give it it's own section so it can draw some attention, and provide some food for thought.
I'm supporting the name '''Emotional sound manipulation''', with the ability to see the sounds mentioned in the description. We do not need to mention the synesthesic qualities in the name, as we can liken it to Knox's enhanced strength. He feels the fear, he grows stronger. Fear isn't mentioned in the title. What I'm getting at is we can simply title it ESM and write something to this effect: "Emma can see sounds as colorful waves of light, and through her emotions, can manipulate the sounds to cause physical damage (i.e. the crack in her wall) or entice people." The only other option I can think of is "Enhanced sound manipulation" which can imply the color-sight, but also makes it sound like it's related to Echo and Jesse's ability, which it is not. Names like "Musical empathy" and "Siren's song" are inaccurate because, respecitively, Emma is not empathizing with anyone and her ability goes beyond the definition of a Siren's song.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:51, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*The problem I have is that you can attach emotion to any ability. Ted got angry, he almost blows up. Tracy get scared, she freezes stuff. However, we don't call it Emotional freezing. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:56, 6 January 2010 (EST)
**Emotion is directly tied into this ability however, similar to empathic mimicry. She almost literally converts her emotions into sound.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:57, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*** What PJ said, Zack. With Ted and Tracy, when they lost control of their emotions, their abilities went haywire. Emotions aren't directly related for them, they just lost control of themselves. Emma, however, has been noted to have a direct connection between her emotions and her abilities.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:59, 6 January 2010 (EST)
**** It would be easier for me to accept if she didn't crack her wall while she seemed all happy playing music haha. It seems more like the fury of her playing and not her emotions. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)
***** Well, we can go with "Enhanced sound manipulation", but that implies that it's a stronger version of [[Sound manipulation]], since every other "Enhanced" ability is based on enhancing something someone can normally do.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 21:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)
* I never heard of an ability being the enhance version of another ability. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:10, 6 January 2010 (EST)
** What I mean is to put Enhanced in front of an already established ability makes it seem as though they're directly related. They're not. Emotional is acceptable, in my opinion, since we can compare it to [[Precognition]] and [[Precognitive dreaming]]. --[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 21:24, 6 January 2010 (EST)
*** Again, I said this already, emotions can be tied in with almost every ability and you can't compare it to Precognition and Precognition dreaming when they're something completely different on their own. Also, we have to include something in the name that makes it clear that she can see the colors. How about Synesthesia sound manipulation? It takes something that was stated in a secondary source, but covers all aspects of the ability without being speculative. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:36, 7 January 2010 (EST)
****One key difference between abilities directly related to emotions and those associate with emotions is that Emma's ability and empathic manipulation '''require''' emotions to work, they cannot be done otherwise. Other abilities that have been seen used in emotional situations (like induced radioactivity or freezing) can be activated by emotions, but the scientific mechanism behind the ability has nothing to do with emotions. Thus, something like "emotional sound manipulation" is indeed appropriate. I still think Siren's song is better, but this would be my second choice.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:41, 7 January 2010 (EST)
***** It's not an appropriate name, because we're ignoring the rest of the sources. The word "synesthesia" was given to us in a secondary source, which outranks a descriptive name that doesn't have the word "synesthesia" in it. That's why I propose Synesthesia sound manipulation. That I feel is a far more appropriate name. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 13:06, 9 January 2010 (EST)
* "Synesthesia" was given as an example of a real medical condition which has similar effects on the senses. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:13, 9 January 2010 (EST)
** And actually, because synesthesia IS a real condition, it is entirely possible that Emma is synesthetic by nature, and it is '''''not''''' part of her ability at all. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:14, 9 January 2010 (EST)
***Although I don't necessarily believe that this should keep it as "enhanced synesthesia", the synesthesia is most likely part of her ability because when Peter absorbed it, he too saw sound as color.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 13:16, 9 January 2010 (EST)
****Ah, that's right, I forgot about that. So yes, the synesthesia is a part of the ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 14:06, 9 January 2010 (EST)
***** With that said then, how would you feel about Synesthesia sound manipulation? --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 14:31, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*That wouldn't be terrible, but I'll say it again, we don't call Echo's version "vocal sound manipulation". Does synesthesia have to be in the name?
**"Synesthesia sound manipulation" is both a nonsense term, and not very accurate of a name. Using the (grammatically correct) term "synesthetic sound manipulation" implies that her power is driven by the ability to see sounds, which is not true. In particular, it does not accurately describe the attractive/repulsive nature of her ability (which appears to be the primary function of it). Meanwhile, [[sound manipulation]] is specifically a user's ability to manipulate vocal sounds, not musical instruments or random noise. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 15:07, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*** That's actually wrong. Echo's AT implies that his ability did more then changed his vocal sounds. You're also wrong about what the name implies, "synesthetic sound manipulation" implies that she sees the sound she manipulates. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 16:36, 9 January 2010 (EST)
**** To further add, we have recorded [[Sound manipulation]] on the wiki page as follow: ''the ability mimic and distort noise, replicate frequencies, and create sonic blasts of devastating proportions''. Nothing states (besides the limits associated with each character) that the ability only works on vocal sounds. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 16:39, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*****Actually, [[sound manipulation]] has never been observed or described as anything other than vocal manipulation. Users could mimic, distort, replicate, and create noise using their voices. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:16, 9 January 2010 (EST)
* But it never been described that they only could use their voice. Otherwise it would have been stated. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:18, 9 January 2010 (EST)
**We're not at liberty to assume they could do more than vocalize. And every observed use of the power has been through voice. Thus, we must assume, until otherwise shown, that this power is exclusively a vocal ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:19, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*** That's why we have the limits for the characters on the ability page. Otherwise we need to change the ability definition on [[sound manipulation]] to state that it only can be used on vocals. Until then, Sound manipulation is defined as the manipulation of any sound, not just vocals. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:22, 9 January 2010 (EST)
****It would be speculation to state that they can manipulate sound with something other than their voices. It is not, however, speculative to say that the ability has only been observed as a vocal ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:39, 9 January 2010 (EST)
***** Richard, I'm curious to see what you would name the ability? Considering that synesthesia, emotions, and the manipulation of sounds is part of the ability. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:30, 9 January 2010 (EST)
* The synesthesia may theoretically be a way for the user to see the effect their ability has (in a similar way to how Knox can smell fear, despite his ability name not reflecting that). Emotions are just as tied to this ability as any other ([[activation and deactivation]] and [[induced radioactivity]] both respond extremely strongly to emotions, but this is again not part of the ability's name). What is ''most'' important about this ability is that it can attract people using sound, and that it can create sonic blasts. Personally, I find '''siren's song''' to be the most effective ability name, but there are certainly other viable candidates. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:39, 9 January 2010 (EST)
** Very well put and I agree with most of your points. I too would agree to Siren's song, though it may be slightly weird of a name. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:51, 9 January 2010 (EST)
***Those abilities are affected by emotion, but they're not what the ability is about, you can say every ability is related to emotions if you go by that. Seeing sounds is a core part of the ability. As I said in the section above, the current name still works if you think of it. What was the key thing we knew about the ability? Seeing sounds. Did we change the name when we saw that Emma could rip walls with it? No, because "enhanced synesthesia" accounts for effects regular synesthesia doesn't. Same thing happens in this case. She can put emotions into sound she sees and manipulate that sound to an effect. "Enhanced", while vague, can account to various effects this ability might produce, otherwise we'd be better off with "Emma's ability", I think no one wants that. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:52, 9 January 2010 (EST)
****Honestly, I think we left it as "enhanced synesthesia" because we had no idea what her power ''actually'' was, and wanted to wait it out and see if something new reared up (which it has now done). --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:54, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*****And enhanced synesthesia still works. Wasn't there an interview someone said that Emma's ability would have an effect on what she sees? Wasn't that even before Emma ripped her wall? We always knew it was going to do something, we just didn't know what. Like I said, "enhanced" is vague, but still overall accurate. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:58, 9 January 2010 (EST)
I'm starting over the conversation here for obvious reasons. Both Enhanced Synesthesia and Siren's song are ''both'' viable names for the ability. At this point, it just matters what people prefer.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 18:03, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*Siren's song doesn't account for seeing sounds. If this was just hypnotic singing, it could work, but it's not. It doesn't even account for the ripping of the wall. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:05, 9 January 2010 (EST)
**And enhanced synesthesia doesn't really account for anything. It gives no indication of what the ability actually does.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 18:28, 9 January 2010 (EST)
***On top of that, if you go back and watch the season, nearly every time Emma (and Peter when he has the ability) play music, people gather to listen. I'd say this is the primary aspect of Emma's power, not the synesthetic byproduct. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:32, 9 January 2010 (EST)
****I don't remember people gathering to see Emma and Peter playing the piano. And it's like I said, since the ability is vague in the sense of what it can do with the sound she sees, it's only logical that the name of the ability has to reflect that vagueness. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:39, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*****I'm afraid I disagree. Her power is actually quite specific at this point. It does three things: Emma can attract specific (or not specific) people through manipulation of sound/music, Emma can create sonic blasts capable of physical damage, and Emma can see a colorful representation of sound (known as "synesthesia"). --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:54, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*And "emotional sound manipulation" in no way accounts for seeing sound. The closest thing to that I can see being correct is "synesthetic manipulation". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:59, 9 January 2010 (EST)
**Synesthetic manipulation makes it sound like she manipulates the disorder itself in someway. I still don't see why we must mention the device that makes the ability work in the name. Echo's power is not called "enhanced voice", Niki's isn't "enhanced muscles", Matt's isn't "enhanced brain", why should Emma's be any different?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:50, 9 January 2010 (EST)
*** She's indeed manipulating her synesthesia: while normal synesthetes only mix different senses, Emma can alter her synesthesia to combine her senses with her emotions.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 06:49, 10 January 2010 (EST)
****Or her synesthesia could always be like that; synesthesia manipulation makes it seem like she changes it from normal to special.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 09:37, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*****Not ''synesthesia'' manipulation, ''synesthetic'', as in through synesthesia, by the means of. She doesn't change synesthesia, synesthesia is what she uses to do what she does. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:00, 10 January 2010 (EST)

== Terrible Names! ==
I hate to be the one, but none of the names discussed really mention all the aspects of her ability: seeing sounds, projecting sound and the siren's song. Maybe someone could come up with a name that could encompass all of the aspects of her ability. [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 01:42, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* I agree, except i think the ability name should be about the aspects like, projecting sound and the siren song. Because really, seeing the sounds isn't really an ability. More of a illness, or whatever people call synesthesia. --[[User:Scorvi12|Scorvi12]] 01:54, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**But still its a major part of the ability. [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 02:27, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**Peter was able to see sounds too. Which makes it part of the ability. No debating it. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 02:28, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*** Oh yeah, i forgot about that. Just forget i ever wrote that. --[[User:Scorvi12|Scorvi12]] 02:50, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*A name has to be debated regarding that part of the ability, maybe something like Synthesiac Sound Manipulation. [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 03:03, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*Seeing sounds doesn't ''have'' to be part of the name, it appears to be a side-effect of the ability rather then its true usage. That being said, I still think "Siren's song" works quite well, it was said in a canon source and has a poetic nature about it (see above).--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 09:53, 10 January 2010 (EST)
** Still, she can make cracks in the wall to, so I don't completly like Siren's Song -- ([[User:WaterRatj|WaterRatj]]) 12:24, 10 January 2010 (EST)
***But the poetry.....--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 12:28, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Seeing sounds should still be mentioned in the name and i dont see how it is a side effect, its a part of the whole ability. [[User:Daevon|daevon]] 16:42, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* Seeing sounds is obviously a major part of the whole ability, so within reason should be part of the ability name. The synesthesia side is part of the ability, because when Peter replicated it, he started seeing colors aswell, remember? -- {{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 17:22, 10 January 2010 (EST)

== Synesthesic empathy or Empathic synesthesia ==
Just trying to come up with some ideas for new names, and these were the only two I could think of. Thoughts ?--{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 09:59, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*Riddler had a pretty good argument against any names containing empathy above; empathy is defined as "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another". Names like "sonic empathy" or "empathic synesthesia" make it seem like she can see the emotions of ''others'' as sound or color. I also don't think that synesthesia ''must'' be mentioned in the name. I'm sorry if the above seems like I'm singling you out but I'm just trying to restate some arguments that are buried above.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 10:03, 10 January 2010 (EST)
** Nah, it doesn't seem like that :) By the way, I think that ''Synesthesia'' does have to be mentioned in the name as it is a big part of her ability, when Peter absorbed it he saw colours as well remember? I understand what you mean with the whole '''empathy''' side of it, so obviuously that shouldn't be part of it, I just thought that because she kinda connects with people because of it is all :) Maybe something like ''Synesthesic attraction''? That way you see that she sees colors and attracts people in with it as well. -- {{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 10:11, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*** I just thought of another one, what about "Emotive synesthesia"? --{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 17:24, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**** It doesn't have anything suggesting she does something with it, it's like a cross sensing version of Lydia's ability to me. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:34, 10 January 2010 (EST)
***** I'm just trying to brainstorm some new names. Some of the names suggested so far haven't been very good, like "Sonic empathy" and "Aural empathy". I mean, obviously we need a name that covers all aspects of the ability, and I thought that ones I was coming up with we doing that. Seemingly not. --{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 17:39, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* How do you feel about the synhestetic manipulation I said above? That's the only thing I could put together taking in account that she does the things she does (lure people, crack walls) through synesthesia (the sounds she sees). [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:10, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*******Unspecific, doesn't say how she manipulates synesthesia. Emotive synesthesia sounds like an AFI album, so that's out.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 18:33, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**Unspecific on purpose, the two thing we saw her doing so far differ a lot, and since they'll probably introduce more effects as they develop Emma, getting a single name to account for several specific effects, being unspecific is the way to go. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:41, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*** Synesthesic manipulation doesn't work, since it doesn't say what she manipulates. If it's limited to two words, it'd be "Synesthesia manipulation," which implies she's manipulating the disorder. If "Synesthestic" is used, it needs to be followed by a word before manipulation. Synesthesic acts as a describer, and manipulation tells what you do with whats being described, but nothing actually exists in the middle, if that makes sense. Synesthesic sound manipulation would be the most accurate.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 19:32, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**** Merriam-Webster gives "synesthetic" as the adjective to synesthesia. If you google it, there are many more references to ''synesthetic'' than there are to ''synesthesic''. I proposed the name without something in between precisely for the fact there seems to be several things she can do with sound, there are words to make this work if this was just emotions or blasts, but no words to account for both effects. Basically, the name means "manipulation through synesthesia" which is what she does, be it emotions, sounds or any other thing she may come to affect. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:41, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*****But can we really say that she wouldn't be able to attract people to her, or blow up walls if she had her eyes closed? Synesthesia simply appears to be her way of identifying what she's doing.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 19:46, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* I typo'd, excuse me. IE, you're right. It IS an adjective to Synesthesia. But an adjective modifies a noun, and we have no noun in the name with "Synesthetic manipulation". I mean, we do, but to say Synesthetic manipulation means she's using synethesia just to.. manipulate. Get what I'm saying? For the ability name to start with Synesthetic, we need it to be a noun that makes sense. Adding "Sound" keeps it accurate. --[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 19:56, 10 January 2010 (EST)
** Yeah, she uses it to manipulate, period. I see no way to make it less general without narrowing it too much. PJDEP, I see no reason for her being unable to do it with her eyes closed, but she would have no idea what's happening since she can only see sound, she can't hear it. Who knows, maybe if Sylar tries to attack Emma he'll figure out that if she can't see sound she can't manipulate it, it would be an interesting twist. Maybe she can, if you cover your ears, the sounds are still there, as long as she can put emotion into sound, I don't think she has to see it, but she does. It's something that the ability didn't have to have, but it does. The ability would still make sense if there was no seeing sound, but since it does, we have to put a reference to synesthesia somewhere in the ability, so if you have another idea, I'm all ears. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:58, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*** Uses it to manipulate ''what'', period? Rhetorical, just hoping you see what I mean.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:04, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**** Anything she may come to manipulate. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:07, 10 January 2010 (EST)
***** It makes it speculative. It implies she can manipulate anything with her synesthesia. We've only seen sound. We can't assume.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:12, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* And that's why we have more detailed explanations in the article page. When you think telepathy, you don't think precognition, but the page explains how that works. It's like I said, there's no way to make it more specific without making it narrow to the point it excludes effects we know it has. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:17, 10 January 2010 (EST)
** If you think about it, you just helped prove my point. Telepathy has an enormous amount of parts to it that aren't in the name. Why MUST Synesthesia be mentioned in the name? Food for thought. We've been told she uses her emotions to manipulate sound. Emotional sound manipulation, on ALL accounts, is the only name we have that actually fits her ability, and the fact that she sees the colors can be in the description.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:21, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*** Seeing the future among other effects aren't core parts of the ability, seeing sound is a core part of Emma's ability. I'm only suggesting this one because people wanted alternatives to the current name. I'm ok with the current name for reasons I already explained in this talk, just Control+F my name and you'll see it at some point. On broad and narrow names, take mental manipulation for example. Just by the name, it could many things, but since it was the only thing that account for the two core effects of René's ability, that's what we went with. If you're argument was geared more towards "emotional sonic manipulation" I would like it better cause while she is manipulating sound, she's using that sound to do something else, something that's not necessarily related to sound, but that still leaves out the core synesthesia part. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:29, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**** Persuasion is a HUGE part of telepathy, and it's not in the name. The fact that Peter has to touch people to replicate abilities isn't mentioned in the name of [[Ability replication]]. The list goes on. It is a big part of her ability, but her true ability, as Samuel called it, is to manipulate the sounds via her emotions. Actually this is a great point. Samuel said that seeing the sounds ISN'T her real ability, just a small part of it. That just supports the idea that it doesn't need to be in the name. And again, "Sound" is all we need. She's not manipulating anything but the sounds. She's not manipulating the colors she can see. She's not manipulating people directly. She's manipulating the sound. So "Emotional sound maniplation", again I support, is the perfect name.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:33, 10 January 2010 (EST)
***** Persuasion is still not the core of telepathy. Peter's ability was named ability replication leaving out touch as preventive measure should it ever evolve past touch. To a degree, she does manipulate the colors. In the scene she cracks the wall, the color of the sounds gets redder when she starts getting agitated. She can manipulate people's emotions, through sound, sound she sees is the medium through which she channels her ability, her sound is akin to Lydia's tattoos. Not taking in account seeing sound would be like leaving out the breathing from fire breathing. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:42, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* I entirely disagree with you. The colors got redder and more intense because the sounds got louder and more intense. She was seeing the sound, and it was changing based on her emotion (as you just noticed yourself, "when she starts getting agitated". The people are enticed by the sounds that are being manipulated. Seeing the colors is NOT the core of her ability. The core of her ability is the sound manipulation. It was even noted in the show, and they put emphasis on it. I don't wanna find the quote due to sheer laziness and hopes that you remember it.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:51, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* Furthermore, and I'll start a new minithread for this, "manipulation through synesthesia" is speculative, wrong even, so "Synesthetic" is inaccurate on it's own. We know she can see the sounds as color, but we don't know if this is what makes it so she can manipulate sound. We actually have been told that she uses her ''emotions'' to manipulate the sound. --[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 19:59, 10 January 2010 (EST)
** Synesthesia has to be there because she sees sound as color. It's a part of her ability, whether it is the key thing to make it work or just something that is ultimately useless that the writers put in it to make it different, and as part of her ability, it has to be accounted for in the ability name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:07, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*** Alright, then it has to be there. But we can't use "Synesthetic". I disagree that it HAS to be there, on account of Knox not being listed as "Fear-induced strength" (regardless of a canon name, it helps to make my point), but if anyone feels it HAS to be there, we can't speculate that she's using it to manipulate the sound itself. Synesthetic anything is out of the picture.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 20:09, 10 January 2010 (EST)
**** I always supported moving Knox to "enhanced strength" or "fear-enhanced strength". I kinda hope that if we manage to settle Emma, we can try to do the same with Knox. AT says he has "enhanced strength", so my suggestion to make that work is to split him, saying his strength is enhanced by fear, while everyone else had super strength all the time. Reference to synesthesia has to be there because it's part of the ability, so if "synesthetic" isn't good enough, by all means propose something better. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:17, 10 January 2010 (EST)
***** New idea: we could cheat. Everyone seems to agree that "sound manipulation" would nicely fit Emma's power, but that's already used. So we could try slight variations like "music manipulation" or "aural manipulation".--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:55, 10 January 2010 (EST)
*Counter-idea, we wait until ''tomorrow'' when we'll see her ability more, then resume debate.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:55, 10 January 2010 (EST)
* Good point! We are very likely to see more of this ability tonight! Maybe then we can settle this :) --{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 11:14, 11 January 2010 (EST)

== Abilities and Emotion ==
*Part of the mythology of the show is that abilities, for the most part, are connected to emotions. Ted's rage fueled his Radioactivity. Fear fueled Knox's strength. When Tracy becomes emotional, her abilities are often affected, sometimes the water aspect of which reflects her sadness. Healing touch became much more sinister with Jeremy's anger. Some abilities even control a user's emotions completely, like Intuitive Aptitude. At this point, putting "emotional" in the name of an ability is almost repetitive, considering all of this. If the ability had some form of control over OTHER's emotions, then it would make sense, but an ability fueled by the USER's emotion does not. So taking in all of the facts, this ability shows us examples of:

Sound to Color Synesthesia (Her ability to see sound)
Sound manipulation (Her ability to control sound, producing different effects [Riddler, it simply doesnt matter if she is vocalizing the sound or not, it is still manipulation of sound. It would be an assumption to say she COULDN'T manipulate the sound of her own voice. We don't know that the effects she creates can only be produced by music.])

The word synesthesia can mean MANY different kinds of confused senses, not just sound to color. So the word on it's own doesn't accurately describe the most obvious effect of her ability. We also know that the synesthesia is not simply her ability making up for her inability to hear because Peter could also see sound when he absorbed it. It may just be as simple as this ability is too broad to narrow it down into a comfortable 1 to 2 word title like we are used to. Indeed, it seems apparent that the writers were attempting to create an ability never seen before. It would be interesting to know what they call it in the writer's room. The actual accepted scientific term for her ability's main effect is "Sound → Color Synesthesia". It may be best (though, daunting) to refer to the ability as Sound/Color Synesthesia and Manipulation. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 02:58, 11 January 2010 (EST)
* It does matter if she can vocalize it or not. My argument for that topic was that her ability is very different from Echo/Jesse, and THEY vocalize. We can't say they have the same ability since she's shown to use other sounds and they use their voice. Regardless, her abilities main effect is NOT seeing the colors. We were all lead to believe that, since we've seen it most, but we hadn't yet fully understood Emma. [[Upon This Rock]] was sure to emphasize that her "true ability" was the sound manipulation, and what she could do with it. Samuel said it directly, she questioned it, and they proved it. Her seeing the sounds is just a small part of it. So her ability is some form of sound manipulation, but it can't be [[Sound manipulation]] since there is a canon source for that one. As for her emotional involvement in the ability, the difference with your examples was that all of those people just lost control when they become emotional. We were told that she needs to use her emotions to manipulate the sounds, and the different moods had different effects. I really don't want to have to dig through the episode for the quotes.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 11:09, 11 January 2010 (EST)

**I didnt say it was her true ability. I said it was the main effect of it, the most obvious part. It is the part of the ability that is known no matter who the user is. Also, Knox isn't "losing control" when he gains strength from fear. He simply happens to use it for evil purposes. Peter also originally used abilities based on emotion. Not all of those made him out of control. Micah seems to be able to use his ability best when he is excited. When he is forced to use it by Candice, he quickly tires and has to stop. Space-time manipulation sometimes controls Hiro based on his emotions, such as when he began missing Charlie and he warped back in time to her. To be fair, it seems like Emma's strongest part of her ability IS based on her emotions making her lose control. The siren's song aspect really didn't seem based on emotion at all, and more on just what she focused on doing. I don't think the name I suggested contradicts anything you believe anyway. It simply describes what she does best. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 13:19, 11 January 2010 (EST)

== True Ability ==

''You need to let go of that fear and release your '''true ability.'''''

''True ability?''

''I need your help. I've tried in my usual way to find this man, and I've been unsuccessful. He's... he's overwhelmed with his gift like you've been, but so much more lost. He thought he was losing his mind. When the moss and the flowers started growing in his footstep, he lost touch with this world and fell into the cracks. I'm told he lives in Central Park.''

''I don't understand. How can I help?''

'''''Your gift is more than seeing gift as sound as color... or putting cracks in a wall.'''''

'''''My true ability... but what is it?'''''

'''''Your emotions can become one with the music.''' You can bring people to you, like a Siren's Song.
Siren?'''''

''Yeah, just play and you'll see. Concentrate on him. Draw him to you. Now's your chance. '''Make your prayers into song.'''
''
: Samuel and Emma

I bolded the most important parts, but quoted the whole segment. Samuel notes that her core, or "true" ability is how she can put her emotions into the music and do things with it. I feel the episode was very careful with this subject, and we need to take it into consideration.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 11:27, 11 January 2010 (EST)
*Though it is likely it will be the main way it is displayed from here out in the series, it cant be assumed she can only manipulate music, and not other sounds. She sees color from outside sound, and it even often produces a musical tone when we are seeing things from her perspective. Can you be clearer on what it is you are proposing by making these points? --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 13:22, 11 January 2010 (EST)
** Every display of manipulation we've seen from her has been through music. The crack in the wall was through furious music. Enticing Ian was through the music. We would be wrong to assume she can do anything else. She can see the sounds, but she's not manipulating the colors. She's just seeing them. Regardless of that though. I don't propose "Musical manipulation". As we can both agree, she does see the sounds, and the music she is manipulating is sound itself, so I think we should have a form of "Sound manipulation" as it's name. We don't need to mention "Synesthesia" since we've been told that it isn't her "true ability" (and we don't have "Fear" in Knox's ability name). Since we can't use that directly, thanks to Echo and Jesse, and we certainly can't merge it, we need to put an adjective in front of it. It's similar to Precognition and Precognitive Dreaming. Similar abilities, but different names. Since they emphasized that she HAS to put emotion into it to get an effect, I again suggest "Emotional sound manipulation."--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 13:30, 11 January 2010 (EST)
***I agree with most of what you're presenting here. I'd hesitate to use a direct variant on "sound manipulation" because it implies too close a similarity with [[Sound manipulation|Echo and Jesse's ability]], but something near it would definitely work. I had suggested '''sonic empathy''', but I'm hesitant about overloading this wiki with a million "empathy" powers when the term might not be appropriate. Meanwhile (as insanely confusing as this could be), something like '''sonic manipulation''' or '''musical manipulation''' (since her siren song only appears to work when she plays music -- ironically making her immune to its effects) might work. Now, the difference between "sound manipulation" and "sonic manipulation" is that the term "sound manipulation" implies a manipulation '''of''' sound (which is correct for Echo and Jesse's ability), while "sonic manipulation" implies a manipulation '''using''' sound (which is correct for Emma's ability). Now, I know these are very similar ability names, but as it is already we do have both [[memory manipulation]] and [[mental manipulation]]. To counter the use of "emotional", I'd say that creative use of "manipulation" can cover that aspect (again, "sonic manipulation" can imply a manipulation of emotions by utilizing sound). So... I'd say our best bet (weirdly enough) is '''sonic manipulation'''. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 14:36, 11 January 2010 (EST)
**** Lol, loads of people come up with loads of different suggestions and you just made your suggestion and its convinced me! I like some of the other names put forward, but the argument you put forth there clinched it :) --{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 14:50, 11 January 2010 (EST)
***** The only real problem I have with "Sonic" is it tends to make people think of Speed, not Sound. "Sonic speed", "Sonic boom", hell, even "Sonic the Hedgehog." People won't realize it has anything to do with sound.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 14:56, 11 January 2010 (EST)
****** As a huge ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' fan, I can definitely see where you're coming from :P That said, the word "sonic" refers any property of sound. It is simply most commonly referring to the speed of sound. "Sonic boom" describes (in a very clever nomenclative move) both the sound created by the event, as well as that it occurs when an object exceeds the speed of sound. That said, the connection between the word "sonic" and speed is artificial. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 15:14, 11 January 2010 (EST)
*******Although a terrible, terrible name, sonic emotional conversion seems to cover up that quote pretty well. I still think "Siren's song" works best however.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:24, 11 January 2010 (EST)
******** I know what sonic means, it's just what it'll make people think. It's iffy, to me. D:--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 15:29, 11 January 2010 (EST)
********* I'm not ready to agree or disagree with the names put forth by Richard. Only because of tonight's episode featuring Emma. There's a strong possibility that new information will be given about her, and maybe even a name (Angela speaks about her in the promo). We could agree on a name now, but if something else was to be given to us tonight then it would have been wasted time and energy. I understand we have cases of where we named an ability then was proven wrong. However, it should be noted that such abilities were named because we thought we weren't going to see said abilities again. Whereas, with this ability, it's not the case. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 15:31, 11 January 2010 (EST)
**********I agree with Zack, let's put this to bed for all of four hours before the new Heroes airs.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:40, 11 January 2010 (EST)
***********Riddler, if you think people you immediately associate "sonic" with speed, then you think people are dumb, sonic is clearly derived from sound, not to think of sound when you hear that word is incredibly unlikely. The reason I still think we should have any mention at all to synesthesia is because of the HI which said her ability is a "form of synesthesia". It's not something we can simply ignore. About Knox, we didn't use fear in his ability because before we could do that, AT came and named it. Given last night's episode, I'm more inclined to sound names, if only because the only moment it showed the colors was in Peter's dream. Out of all sound related names, the one I disagree the least with is "sonic manipulation", for reasons already stated. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 07:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)
***A: Sonic and Sound are interchangeable, thus we might as well call it sound manipulation if we'd call it sonic. One does not imply the use of something else's sounds more than the other. B: We are supposed to try our best to cover the range of effects an ability has. It doesnt matter one flying flip if in Samuel's opinion the synesthesia aspect is not her "true ability". Thats his opinion, he would clearly care more about strength and power, and hes not an expert. The FACT is, it IS the most obvious part of her ability, and it is TRULY part of her ability. Peter replicated that aspect of it. The only name suggested thus far that covers it all is the one I proposed. I dont care if mine is used or not, but its gotta be something that makes sense and covers whats happening. Then we can add all the redirects and a.k.a.'s we want so people can find it. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 16:27, 12 January 2010 (EST)
****Also, the reason it is important to distinguish the fact that she sees sound as color is that there are other forms of synesthesia, like grapheme where you see certain letters and numbers in colors. The reality here would be she doesnt have synesthesia at all, because you would have to actually be able to HEAR a sound to get the sense mixed with a visual like seeing color. But this is a fantasy world, so whatre ya gonna do? --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 16:31, 12 January 2010 (EST)
*****The Heroes Interactive said her ability is "a form of synesthesia". All we need is to point out which in the article. Just the fact she can see sounds without hearing them is like a super power. The crossing of senses in her case is not two senses crossing together, but once sense invading and taking over one she doesn't have. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:19, 12 January 2010 (EST)
******Yes, thats a great way of putting it. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 00:51, 13 January 2010 (EST)

== Name debate continues ==

So tonight's episode didn't help at all really, so we're more or less where we were at last week. I don't know if I have the "authority" to set up a proper consensus check, so if anyone else can, please do. We have enough information to either decide to rename or keep the current name of this ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 22:40, 11 January 2010 (EST)

== Consensus check 2010/01/12 ==

So, PJDEP proposed a consensus check: here's the 27 proposed names I found in the discussion; if I forgot anything, sorry! Remember to put you signature under the ones you '''oppose'''. If all names end having a valid opposition, this ability will default to "Emma's ability".
* I'm not leaving any "oppositions" in this consensus check, as I still see this system as flawed. We have a huge list of name that "don't qualify" anymore after only one or two oppositions, yet all the "still valid" ones have at least three? All by the same people, nonetheless; I've never agreed with this kind of consensus check. It has no organization, and it detracts people from putting in their opinion as it is an utter mess. That said, I still think Emotional sound manipulation is best, but I can agree with Sonic manipulation.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 14:23, 13 January 2010 (EST)
**Some ability names are out the door the moment they are proposed, like the ones containing the word "empathy", because they are a clearly inaccurate description. Although others may have less oppositions, they have no counter-arguments, which the below do.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:26, 13 January 2010 (EST)
*** A good number of them likely have no counter arguments because people see they're "eliminated" and don't bother. We've had this problem with this style of consensus in the past. It never leads to anything good. Our old consensus check wasn't perfect, but infinitely better than this.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 15:29, 13 January 2010 (EST)
**** Then we should put a message that says they can be re-added to the valid names list if someone has an appropriate counter-argument. I've always assumed that was how it was supposed to work.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:37, 13 January 2010 (EST)
***** I was the one who split this list into still-valid and eliminated names, primarily because this list is absolutely, ungodly huge. The names I split off to "eliminated" was because the arguments against them effectively defeated them as even being possibilities, whereas the five remaining ability names are still theoretically usable, and while the arguments against them do have merit, they do not outright defeat the term. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 16:02, 13 January 2010 (EST)
*At a certain point, when we've narrowed down the choices a little, don't we go to the old voting system?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:42, 14 January 2010 (EST)
**Yes, but...how do we even decide what names are still valid for voting? For instance: "Siren's song" received some opposition, counter-arguments were presented, counter-counter-arguments were also presented, etc. Same with "music and emotion integration" or "emotional sound manipulation". What names do you think should be candidates for voting?--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 16:07, 14 January 2010 (EST)
***If five names are too much for a vote (I don't think they are, but I'm unsure of the precedents we've set), I'm not sure. But we will eventually need to come to a conclusion.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:28, 14 January 2010 (EST)
**** The precedent I think is to have 2~3 at most, otherwise it becomes essentially identical to the old type of consensus check. Currently "enhanced synesthesia" and "emotional sound manipulation" have had at least one opposition without counter argument for some time now; maybe we could cross these out?--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 16:39, 14 January 2010 (EST)
***** I'll go ahead and do it. If anyone is sufficiently bothered they can re-add them.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:43, 14 January 2010 (EST)
=== Still-Valid Names ===
'''Emotion(al) sound manipulation'''
#Slightly opposed. She is manipulating sound, yes, but the focus of the ability is '''''how''''' and '''''to what end''''' she is manipulating sound. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, Emma didn't appear to be particularly emotional when she summoned Peter to her apartment.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:11, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#: That's subjective; I felt she was really hopeful.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:19, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose, The emotion matters not. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 00:55, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#: What? Of course it matters, Emma ability is to alter the effects of the music she plays by combining it with an emotion.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 07:16, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#::Almost all powers are affected by emotion. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 14:19, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Almost all powers are affected by them, but her ability REQUIRES her emotions.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 14:21, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#:::: Action Figure, see [[User:Leckie/Abilities and emotions|here]]. These are the abilities I found that can be affected by, can effect or require emotions. There's a lot that aren't/don't.--{{User:Leckie/Signature 10}} 14:31, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Ugh, I think I've lost my will to care on this one. Good luck with a name guys. This is always the dumbest part. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 04:23, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#::::I mean seriously, what emotion is "I want this homeless guy to show up"? --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 04:25, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#::::: I'm not gonna bother with that page, but the emotion she used with Ian was wonder and hope. Samuel told her to make her emotions one with the music, to turn her prayers into song. When we say "she has to use her emotions", we never need to specify one specific emotion for every different part of her ability. We mean she's using her feelings and thoughts as a whole to get an effect. Emotion.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 16:17, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#::::: Hopefully I can still argue, but just look at the dream Peter had. Emma was obviously distressed, if her distress had nothing to do with killing thousands, I would be beyond shocked. --[[User:Dman dustin|Dman dustin]] 21:35, 2 February 2010 (EST)

'''Music and emotion integration'''
#Oppose. Makes no mention to her ability to see sound. Which as the Naming conventions state, a descriptive name must cover all aspects of an ability. We can't bend the rules --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:40, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:Samuel said that Emma's ability to manipulate sound was her true ability, not her synesthesia. So the sound visualization aspect could be treated as a smaller side-effect, unimportant to the naming of the true ability.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:41, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:: He NEVER said it was only music. If we're going by what he said then this name still wouldn't fit the bill. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:48, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::: Ok, more specifically, Samuel said "your emotions can become one with the music". "Music and emotion integration" suggests exactly that, and nothing more: her emotions and her music can become one, integrated. I think the name fits.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:53, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::: Exactly. "Music and emotion integration" suggests exactly that. And nothing more. The "and nothing more" part being key. This does not describe her ability to see sound, or her ability to summon people. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 22:31, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::::: Disagree. As I said, Samuel claimed that Emma's channel-emotions-through-music thing was her true ability, so I think it's okay to leave her synesthesia out of the equation. And "music and emotion integration" does explain that she can summon people by "making her prayers into song"; see my comment below.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 22:37, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose, does not include the most important aspect of the ability: the ability to attract/summon people using her ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 22:11, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#: None of the proposed names, except Siren's song, do. Nevertheless, Samuel said that Emma could attract people by making her "prayers into sound". The fact that her emotions and music become one encompasses the luring thing, it just doesn't refer to it explicitly (similarly to how telepathy doesn't directly refer to persuasion or precognition)--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 22:15, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose- Doesnt describe the ability... at all... --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 00:55, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#: Untrue, read above comments. Remember that Samuel said that Emma's true ability was to let her emotions become one with the music; "music and emotion integration" is simply a synthesis of how Samuel described her power.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 07:16, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#::If you came to this site with no prior knowledge of her ability, this term wouldn't even begin to clearly describe it to you. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 14:25, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Which is probably why you came to the site in the first place, to look the ability up. The article can give more specific details.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:11, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#A more proper name may be "Music-emotion integration", less wordy.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:23, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#: Maybe "Synesthetic music-emotion integration"? Completely wordy, but covers absolutely all aspects if needed.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 16:10, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#::I'd rather keep it as either "music-emotion integration" or "music and emotion integration", because they mean virtually the same thing. If we're going to go all out and make a name encompassing every element we'll end up with "attracting and blasting through emotion with a synesthetic visual aide".--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:47, 14 January 2010 (EST)
'''Siren's song'''
#Opposed, she plays an instrument, she doesn't sing. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:It's figurative, not literal. This shouldn't be a reason for disqualifying a name.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:16, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::It doesn't account for smashing walls either. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:30, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::As I said in a discussion above, Siren's song has a poetic nature to it. Emma lures people close to her with the allure of her song, much like the Siren's in Greek legends, and the "blast" she creates could represent the sailors crashing into the rocks because of the Siren's song. It's highly figurative, but it works.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:32, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::: It's highly speculative, too. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be doing literary analysis when naming an ability.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:41, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::::Too figurative to work. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:36, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::That's an opinion--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:39, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::I don't think the name needs to be so figurative that many users will have no idea of what it means. - {{User:Jenx222/sig4}} 20:42, 12 January 2010 (EST)</span>
#:::::::Siren's song isn't that uncommon. If they're not entirely aware of what the ability is, that's what the article is for.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::::It isn't that common either, and it's still a very WTHIT? name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 21:08, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, doesn't account for all aspects of the ability. - {{User:Jenx222/sig4}} 20:35, 12 January 2010 (EST)</span>
#:It's taken from a canon source however, there have been cases in the past where a higher ranking source did not entirely encompass an ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:40, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:: Only when it's an explicit canon source, which must follow the format "your ability is called X" or "ability: X". Samuel didn't do this.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Correct me if I'm mistaken, but "ability supercharging" was taken from a description of Ando as "a supercharger". Ando's ability does more the supercharge abilities, yet the description was used.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:08, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::: And that's why Ando's ability has no explicit source for its name. Perhaps it ''should'' be changed to a more general "supercharging", but this is not the place to discuss it.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:17, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::My point still stands however, ability names have been taken from canon descriptions even when they don't entirely encompass the ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:24, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::: And yet we don't name Matt Jr.'s ability "Touch and Go" exactly because it wasn't explicitly given and didn't cover all aspects.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 22:02, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::::I didn't say every case, I just said that it has happened before.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 22:09, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose, only one aspect of the ability --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 00:55, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#:See my explanation above.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:17, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#::See literary counter arguments above. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 08:05, 19 January 2010 (EST)

'''Sonic manipulation'''
#Opposed, just a rehash of "sound manipulation", and makes no reference to emotions or attraction.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:17, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:Not exactly, sonic manipulation can be interpreted as manipulate things with sound, through sound, which she does. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:30, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::Not just a rehash. "Sound manipulation" means "a manipulation of sound", which is accurate for Echo/Jesse. "Sonic manipulation" means "a manipulation using sound", which is accurate for Emma. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::All right, I "unoppose".--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:49, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose. Makes no mention to her ability to see sound. Which as the Naming conventions state, a descriptive name must cover all aspects of an ability. We can't bend the rules. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:38, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:Samuel said that Emma's ability to manipulate sound was her true ability, not her synesthesia. So the sound visualization aspect could be treated as a smaller side-effect, unimportant to the naming of the true ability.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:41, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::If he said to "manipulate sound" then it would be [[Sound manipulation]] and we would just list her unique aspects in the limit section. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 21:46, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::: Hmm, Samuel indeed said "music" and not "sound", so I suppose your opposition is correct.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 22:04, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Again, she is not manipulating the sound so much as manipulating people via the sound. Hence the distinction. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 22:07, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:To (admittedly weakly) counter that, one could say the synesthesia is her manipulating the very sound waves to interpret them visually. Sound and light are both forms of energy. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 22:13, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose, its another way to say sound manipulation --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 00:55, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#:Please read my above comments, "sound manipulation" and "sonic manipulation" are (by basic grammar) distinct terms. "Sound manipulation" is literally a manipulation of sound. "Sonic manipulation" is literally a manipulation using sound. Meaning sound is used to manipulate something else (not sound). --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 03:44, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#::"Sonic" just means- "relating to or using sound waves." So it can go either way. "Sound" alone certainly does not denote only manipulation of sound. That one could also go either way. Essentially they are interchangeable here. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 14:25, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Although I disagree with "Synesthetic" being an adjective for this ability, I can agree with "Sonic". It sounds a little hypocritical, but Ricard makes a good point in that the adjective makes a difference here. Manipulating sound isn't the same as manipulating THROUGH sound. At the same time though, I still think "Sonic" will make people think of Speed, ala Sonic Speed, Sonic Boom, and Sonic the Hedgehog.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 14:27, 13 January 2010 (EST)
# Comment: Samuel said that Emma could manipulate ''music'' not ''sound in general'', so "sonic manipulation" might be too broad. Thoughts?--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 16:55, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#:From a logical standpoint, I don't think there would be an legitimate explanation for why she can only manipulate music and not sound in general. Her ability shouldn't "sense" whether something is musical or not, because you can't actually say what qualifies as musical and what doesn't.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 17:23, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#:: Yes, but given that her ability is an emotional one, her connection to the sentiments evoked by music could be crucial. I mean, sure, physically, there's no difference between noise and music, but if Emma cannot subjectively ''feel'' a sound as music, perhaps her ability fails? Besides, Samuel only said that she combines music and emotions or prayers and songs so extending this effect to sound in general goes beyond what he said.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 17:36, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#::: The problem is, it is not possible to define a line between "music" and "sound". A garbage can falling over and striking the ground has a combination of vibrations just the same as a cello being played. Additionally, she can see ALL forms of sound, not just musical or tonal forms. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:56, 14 January 2010 (EST)
#:::: Yes, it's true that it's impossible to objectively determine what's noise and what's music. But it's not impossible to determine it ''subjectively''. If Emma, ''from her point of view'', feels that a certain group of lights do not feel like "music" ''for her'', then perhaps her ability doesn't work.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 19:04, 14 January 2010 (EST)
'''<u>Notes/Comments</u>'''
*None of the names mentioned list all of the aspects of the ability, so unless we're going to call this Emma's ability, we can't cross out names because they don't list every single function.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)
** Well, since Samuel said that Emma's synesthesia was not her true ability, I'm okay with leaving that out of the name.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:58, 12 January 2010 (EST)
*I'm beginning to think we should get Ryan to email a writer asking what the hell this ability is haha. This one is all over the board. It's like they took darts and said "Where ever they land is what will be the aspects of her ability".--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 22:16, 12 January 2010 (EST)
*Well, let's observe the ability. She can:
**see sound as color, commonly known as "synesthesia" or "hysterical blindness".
**create waves of destructive energy when angry.
**attract individuals by playing music and thinking of them.
*The trick is to integrate these three ideas. It is possible, I think, but at the very least the name should try to incorporate ''two'' of the three. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 22:25, 12 January 2010 (EST)
**And actually, the more I think about it, the more I feel only a name involving "manipulation" could cover most/all of the aspects, as it explains the second and third aspects fairly clearly and cleanly. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 22:28, 12 January 2010 (EST)
** Both the blast and the attraction could be treated as a single "emotional channelling" idea. This leaves us with two aspects, but, as I said, I don't think the synesthesia must necessarily appear, as Samuel said that the channel-emotions-through-music thing was her true ability.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 22:33, 12 January 2010 (EST)

=== Eliminated Names (If an appropriate counter-argument can be made, re-add to valid name list) ===
'''<s>Aural empathy</s>'''
#Opposed, same reason as "empathic musicality"--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:10, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, has nothing do to with any aura/spirit related abilities we know. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#: Actually, "aural" can refer both to auras or to the sense of hearing --[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:25, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:: You mean "auricular". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:38, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed. Aural refers to a sense of hearing. This term implies she can use her hearing to empathize which is entirely wrong. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Aural manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed, same as aural empathy. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#: Actually, "aural" can refer both to auras or to the sense of hearing --[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:25, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:: You mean "auricular". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:38, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, as she is manipulating people's '''reaction''' to sound, not their ability to '''hear''' sound, which is what this term implies. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Emotional musicality</s>'''
#Opposed, anyone can feel emotional playing music. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:16, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, same as IE's response. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)


'''<s>Emotional synesthesia</s>'''
#Opposed, makes no reference to sound or music, which is a large part of the ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, this term implies she uses her emotions to see sound. Entirely incorrect. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Emotion-based sound manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed. See "Emotion(al) sound manipuation". This term is identical. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Emotive synesthesia</s>'''
# Opposed, as it does not refer to a crucial aspect of Emma's power: music (or sound)--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:32, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, see "Emotional synesthesia". --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Empathic musicality</s>'''
#Opposed, empathy is sharing and understanding the feelings of others, Emma does not do this, musically or otherwise.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:02, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, pretty much what PJDEP said. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, same as PJDEP. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Empathic sound manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed, same reason as "empathic musicality"--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:02, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, ditto. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, ditto. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Empathic synesthesia</s>'''
#Opposed, same reason as "empathic musicality"--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:03, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, ditto. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, ditto. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Enhanced sound manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed, no emotion involvement. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, as it seems like a better version of Echo's power.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:25, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, same as Referos. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Enhanced synesthesia</s>'''
#Opposed, far too unspecific, we have enough information about the ability to be more specific about how it works.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:21, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:Unspecificness is a way to account for effects shown, and many others she might show depending on which emotion she uses. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:30, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:: True. We do have "mental manipulation", after all, which is ridiculously unspecific.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:41, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::: Enhanced synesthesia has no emotional implication however.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:27, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, this ability is substantially more than any level of synesthesia. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:The ability was called a "form of synesthesia" in a HI, which we have used to argument ability names before, and not far apart in time, there was an interview saying that Emma's ability would have an effect on what she sees. The whole emotion thing is that effect. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 21:08, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose, barely describes the ability. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 00:55, 13 January 2010 (EST)
#Oppose, same as what Action Figure said. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 02:00, 13 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Music(al) manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed, doesn't mention how she manipulates music, and suggests she can manipulate music she isn't playing, which is speculative.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:23, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed to "Music manipulation", as she is not manipulating the music itself. Slightly opposed to "Musical manipulation", as while she is using music to manipulate others, she can also see '''sound''' (which encompasses more than "music"). --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Musical empathy</s>'''
#Opposed, because empathy is not used in the correct context. If taken literally, "musical empathy" would refer to an ability that lets you hear a person's emotions through music.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:10, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, same as PJDPED's reasons for names containing empathy. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:14, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, same as above. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Sonic emotional conversion</s>'''
#Opposed, Samuel said she merges them, it's not a conversion. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:16, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, same as above. She is not converting sound into emotions. She is using music to instill emotions. Very different. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)
'''<s>Sonic empathy</s>'''
#Opposed, same reason as "musical empathy"--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:10, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Sonic hypnosis</s>'''
#Opposed, smashing walls is not hypnosis. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:16, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Sound manipulation (merge with Echo's and Jesse's power)</s>'''
#--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 19:58, 12 January 2010 (EST) While both manipulate sound, Emma's manner of manipulating is quite distinct from Echo's and Jesse's.
#Opposed, these are absolutely different abilities. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Synesthetic attraction</s>'''
#Opposed, smashing walls is not hypnosis. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:16, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#: Hypnosis? Haha, check your copy-pasta.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:25, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:: Kinda is, she attracts people through some sort of sound hypnotism. Anyway, you get the point. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:30, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed. She does not use her ability to see sound to attract people. The term is outright wrong. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Synesthetic empathy</s>'''
#Opposed, same reason as "musical empathy"--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:11, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, same reasons PJDEP has for names with empathy in it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:18, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed. She is not using her ability to see sound to empathize. Completely wrong. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Synesthetic manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed, makes no reference to what is being manipulated, or how it is being manipulated.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:18, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:She manipulated emotions and objects, unless there's a word that defines both these things, no word should be used between synesthetic and manipulation. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:30, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::She manipulates sound, but that's nowhere in the ability name.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:42, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:::She manipulates sound to manipulate other things, it's not the subject of the ability, it's the medium. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:44, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#::::It still should be mentioned in the name however.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:46, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed. She is not using her synesthesia to manipulate anything. She is using sound to manipulate. Her synesthesia allows her to see the sound she is manipulating. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#As above. - {{User:Jenx222/sig4}} 20:55, 12 January 2010 (EST)</span>

'''<s>Synesthetic sound manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed. It sounds like it is a form of Echo/Jesse's ability with the addition of being able to see the sound, which is not the case. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed, makes no reference to emotions or attraction.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 21:02, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Temperamental sonic manipulation</s>'''
#Opposed, temperamental would mean she does it by being enraged, angry, cheeky, or bad temper. Not what happens. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:18, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#: Untrue. While "temperamental" can refer to an irritable person, it can also refer to one's emotional and mental state.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:32, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed. "Temperamental" is too restrictive. She has used calm emotions to attract people too. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Thinking again, a person's temperament is his or her emotional predisposition, which is somewhat fixed. Emma's power relies on her emotional state, which is quite variable, so it's not based on her temperament.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:01, 12 January 2010 (EST)

'''<s>Temperamental sonokinesis</s>'''
#Opposed, same reason of above name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:18, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#:Untrue. While "temperamental" can refer to an irritable person, it can also refer to one's emotional and mental state.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:32, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Regardless, opposed, because sonokinesis means the movement of sound, not manipulation of sound.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:32, 12 January 2010 (EST)
#Opposed. First reaction: "What?" Second reaction: Same problem as "Temperamental sonic manipulation". Additionally, "sonokinesis" is not a wide enough term, she doesn't only control the motion of sound waves, she instills emotion into them as well. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:47, 12 January 2010 (EST)
'''Other (please add)'''

'''<u>Notes/Comments</u>'''
*For pretty formatting, please cross opposed names with the underline tag, and use the <s>thing-that-looks-like-a-tic-tac-toe-board</s> hash symbol (#) rather than asterisk (*) when posting comments.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:25, 12 January 2010 (EST)
** I'm adding a new idea: Samuel said that her true ability is that her emotions can be come one with the music, so I think "Music and emotion integration" could be a possibility.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 21:24, 12 January 2010 (EST)

== Rename this Emma's ability for now ==

Until a consensus is reached, which may take a while, I suggest we move this to Emma's ability. At least then the name isn't wrong even if there is a better one. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:33, 14 January 2010 (EST)

==Manipulative Synesthesia==

According to the interviews, Emma has a "form of synesthesia", right? Emma's ability allows her to "manipulate" her synesthesia condition. By "manipulating" it, I mean she manipulates its effect, which are colors coming from sounds. "Manipulative Synesthesia" explains how she can manipulate the sound she sees, but can only manipulate those she herself creates. The effects(alluring people toward her or making dents in walls) is an aspect of her "manipulating" her condition.

Or, it could be "Emotional Manipulative Synesthesia", though it's a bit long. It could explain how her emotions are directly linked to the ability, though I'm not entirely convinced it is. Emma doesn't seem too "emotional" when she lured the people into her.[[User: Realistic|Realistic]]
* She's not manipulating the synesthesia. --[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 18:34, 15 January 2010 (EST)
** Through the sound she sees. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:51, 15 January 2010 (EST)
*** That doesn't make any sense. Synesthesia is a ''real'' condition that crosses the senses. No form of such a condition would ever have an external effect. Synesthesia is strictly in one's own head, and no "manipulation" of a condition like that could explain this ability. That's like saying someone with leukemia and acidic blood has, when cut, acidic leukemia. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:29, 15 January 2010 (EST)
****Hey, there probably isn't a perfect name, we're just throwing things out there. Also, this is a tv show, some lack of logic is required. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:56, 15 January 2010 (EST)

== Four ==

We seem to have it down to four potential names, is it time to bring this to a consensus poll? --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:30, 15 January 2010 (EST)
*It's been a while, I think it's okay to start a poll.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 22:34, 15 January 2010 (EST)


***I know I came in WAY late in this discussion...but I have a suggestion...I don't have time to read the whole thing...so feel free to shoot me down if my Idea has already been shot down before. I think that Emma' power should be named '''Music Manipulation''' because that's what she basically does. She can see lots of sound, but usually only music, or sound that would make some plausible music. She cracked her wall with the song that she was playing because the song showed her fear, therefore she accidentally cracked her wall. Furthermore, she used music to lure Peter to her, and can probably use the same song to do so with others, but just manipulate the music by thinking of who she wants to bring in. Thanks for reading this and giving it some consideration...if you didn't then oh well...I tried.***---Mr. Applez
****I think you're wrong there. Does sounds coming from breaking china and kicked trash cans count as "music"(or plausible music)? She can clearly do more with other forms of sound other than music.--[[User:Realistic|Realistic]]

== Poll ==

It's been a while, and four names remain after the consensus check.
*I honestly can't vote for either of these names. With only a few episodes left, and Emma being a big part of it, it's honestly best to wait to see what happens with her ability. Which is why I said it's best to call it Emma's ability for the meantime. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:41, 20 January 2010 (EST)
*I agree with OBZ, it won't kill us to wait two more weeks, then we'll have 8 or 9 months to discuss it before S5. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 19:35, 20 January 2010 (EST)
**It wouldn't, but the world won't end if we pick a name that is somehow way off the mark. Also, we have more then enough information to name this ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:19, 20 January 2010 (EST)
*** I feel like we really don't. We're going off on what Samuel has said, who isn't the best person to listen to, because he says whatever he can to gain something. I never said the word would end. I'm saying let's be smart about this and see what happens. Patience pays off. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:31, 20 January 2010 (EST)
****I wasn't suggesting anything by using the phrase "the world will end" just to clarify, I like to exaggerate. And we can't discriminate against sources, otherwise we'll add a whole new dimension to the already-disputed naming conventions.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:35, 20 January 2010 (EST)
****** We actually do weight in the sources when someone says something about an ability on the show. We know more is gong to happen, let's wait and see if we're on the right track.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:38, 20 January 2010 (EST)
*******Yes, we may take something Mohinder says over something Micah says, but we don't decide that the source may be dishonest unless it's incredibly obvious. We know several effects of the ability and that it works through emotions. I don't think anymore time is necessary.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:40, 20 January 2010 (EST)
********* Yet the naming conventions states we must come up with a name that describes all aspects of the ability. Which no one as manage to come up with. We're also ignoring another source that clearly uses the word synesthesia.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:42, 20 January 2010 (EST)
**********Those rules are for descriptive names only I believe, as they ignored by several names taken from canon and near-canon sources. "Siren's song" was actually said in an episode, and "music and emotion integration" is derived from a comment Samuel made about the ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:46, 20 January 2010 (EST)
*Out of curiosity, how long does the poll last?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:01, 5 February 2010 (EST)
<s>'''Keep as Enhanced Synesthesia'''</s>
#--[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 06:47, 21 January 2010 (EST) I see no reason why we can't vote for the page to stay here just now rather than voting it to be a different name then having to go through the same thing in 2 or 3 weeks time.
#:I don't mind the current name, while vague, it is accurate, I'm just in this so that if the ability is renamed, it'll be to something accurate. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 07:13, 21 January 2010 (EST)
#:: You can't vote to keep it as "enhanced synesthesia". We're currently performing the second round of the consensus check; "enhanced synesthesia" received opposition and was removed in the first round. Sorry.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 10:34, 21 January 2010 (EST)
#::: If that is so Siren's Song also has to be eliminated, arguments against the name are overwhelming. Counterarguments against the ones which eliminated this have yet to be countered as well. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:39, 21 January 2010 (EST)
#::::I believe we're allowed to vote for the page to say that it stays where it is, otherwise, we'd definitely have to move any page with a split thing. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 10:46, 21 January 2010 (EST)

'''Emotional sound manipulation'''
#--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 18:57, 19 January 2010 (EST)

'''Music and emotion integration'''
#--[[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 08:02, 19 January 2010 (EST) Sonic manipulation being my second option.
#--{{User:Tanderix/sign}} 20:31 (Italy), 19 January 2010
#--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 18:51, 19 January 2010 (EST)
#----{{User:Danko/Signature}} 11:42, 10 February 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 23:58, 19 January 2010 (EST) Altough I agree on what PJDEP said, it will sound more good with a hypen than with the "and" like Space-Time Manipulation
#:That's an excellent point, we don't call it "space and time manipulation"--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:10, 20 January 2010 (EST)
#::They don't have the "and" because of the mathematical model which makes them part of the same thing, it's neither one nor the other, just both. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:19, 20 January 2010 (EST)
#:::IE, do you actually oppose writing it as "music-emotion integration" or are you just playing devil's advocate?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:36, 20 January 2010 (EST)
#::::I was merely pointing out the validity of the "and" in this name by pointing out the reason it isn't used in another ability name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:38, 20 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::I'm just saying that it will sound much good with a hypen and just saying an example, Hiro calls himself a "master of space and time" not a "master of space-time" and yet we named the ability with a hypen. I'm not saying that having an "and" was not valid but it will sound less clumsy as PJDEP said. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 03:40, 21 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::It was named "space-time manipulation" because space-time is a legitimate physics concept. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 04:03, 21 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::Hiro can choose to manipulate one at a time as well, so he can master time, and he can master space, or he can master time and space; that's why he says this. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 06:47, 21 January 2010 (EST)
#:::::::I'm not saying that it was wrong, I'm just stating an example. It was alright for me if the ability name have an "and" or a "hypen" that's why I voted for this ability name --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 02:33, 22 January 2010 (EST)
#::::::::Doesn't this only explain one aspect of the ability? Yes, she can make her music and emotions come together, but she can also see sound as colour, create what seems as a sonic blast, and bring people to her. To me, 'Sirens song' fits better, because like the creatures (a siren) they draw people to them to kill them, using music. Seems to fit just about right.--[[User:Heroesobsession|heroesobsession]] 13:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)
#:::::::::Siren's song describes less her ability than this one does. There is no name which accounts for all the effects of her ability, this is the one which describes most of them. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 21:14, 2 February 2010 (EST)
#::::::::::I'm afraid I have to disagree, on the notion that Mozart was capable of integrating music and emotions by means of musical composition, yet it is by no means a superhuman ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 21:18, 2 February 2010 (EST)
#::::::::::: That's completely different; Mozart never composed a music that literally hypnotised people.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 11:44, 3 February 2010 (EST)
#:::::::::::: My point exactly. This ability name is extraordinarily vague, and the term "music and emotion integration" could just as easily apply to an instance of musical composition. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 15:39, 3 February 2010 (EST)
#::::::::::::: And her ability isn't all over the place as well? There are several aspects to it, this isn't a core ability with many applications, it's a more complicated version of mental manipulation, only this time it's much harder to find a name to account for the effects. A vague ability calls for a vague name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:52, 3 February 2010 (EST)
#:::::::::::::: I can make plants grow faster than it would be naturally possible by adding fertilizer. Therefore, I have [[plant growth]]? An ability doesn't need to have a name that evokes its superhuman qualities, otherwise we would need to rename ''a lot'' of powers. I can [[freezing|freeze]] things with liquid nitrogen; I can [[sound manipulation|manipulate sound]] using a computer, I can feel [[empathy]] for another person; you get the idea.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 17:05, 3 February 2010 (EST)
#::::::::::::::: Actually, you don't do any of those things. The fertilizer speeds the plants' growth. The liquid nitrogen freezes things, and the computer manipulates sound. Even with empathy, one can say from a psychological standpoint that we only attempt to empathize, but without feeling their feelings and knowing their experiences (which is what that ability does), one cannot truly empathize. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:39, 3 February 2010 (EST)
#:::::::::::::::: Why are there an argument about this ability name not having all the aspect, This was the best name of the three. Siren's Song doesn't even cover her ability, she didn't sing she only plays. Sonic Manipulation was for too broad, her emotion was needed for her ability to take an effect. Ok, it doesn't cover her ability to see the light but it was said that she have a synesthesia. Peter can also see the light because the light was the "sound" and was needed by the ability. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 07:15, 4 February 2010 (EST)
#::::::::::::::::: You need not sing for it to be a song. When I play a saxophone, it's still a song. Yes, the source material relates to the singing of a siren, but a song can be any musical arrangement. That said, there is discussion below as to whether or not she actually does need a specific emotion (or emotions at all -- perhaps it was simply easier for her to focus by using an emotion, it's hard to say). Sonic manipulation does actually cover all aspects. She can see sound (an internal manipulation of sound as light), can use sound to create shockwaves (manipulating the vibrations themselves), and can draw people in using music (manipulating people using sound). Even if she requires emotions, one could posit that she uses her emotions to manipulate them, thus fueling a "manipulation" name. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:25, 4 February 2010 (EST)

'''Siren's song'''
#--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 00:44, 19 January 2010 (EST) -- I'd be more inclined to support "music and emotion integration" if it were "music-emotion integration", as it means essentially the same thing while being less clumsy.
#:We've had abilities with an "and" in the middle. Activation and deactivation is an example. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:45, 19 January 2010 (EST)
#:: Well, I don't really have anything against replacing the "and" by a hyphen.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 18:53, 19 January 2010 (EST)
#:: I wasn't saying that the "and" makes it invalid, I was just saying that I, personally, would prefer if there was a hyphen.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 19:17, 19 January 2010 (EST)
#:::Honestly, "activation and deactivation" is one of the clumsiest ability names we have. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 19:22, 19 January 2010 (EST)
#::::Not really, and it's perfectly accurate, considering what we know about it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:40, 19 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 16:08, 20 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Cj31094|Cj31094]] 22:15, 20 January 2010 (EST)
#----[[User:Heroesobsession|heroesobsession]] 13:04, 2 February 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Hive|Hive]] 00:04, 5 February 2010 (EST) -- This is the only name to be referenced in an episode. It's also nice and succinct.
#:And also inaccurate. It describes only one aspect of her ability. It would be like calling Matt's telepathy "reading minds", even though he can do much more than that. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 12:07, 5 February 2010 (EST)
#::That's tricky ground, as technically the term "telepathy" is strictly mindreading. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 12:48, 5 February 2010 (EST)
#:::That's actually strictly sci-fi terms. Tele means distance (so would cover the other peoples minds bit) and pathy means feeling. Literally it's distant feelings, or the feelings of others. And in parapsychology (which is the study of paranormal events) it is defined as "communication between minds by some means other than the normal sensory channels; transference of thought". --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 12:54, 5 February 2010 (EST)
#::::Telepathy is the act of transfering of thoughts between two (or more minds) ["communication between minds by some means other than sensory perception"]. One with "definative" Telepathy should able to "read & write" so to speak. The mind reading and "thought pushing". Telepathy as a name sure as heck doesn't cover the memory manipulation, emotion manipulation and by no means the precognition aspects of what Parkman can do. So that's an example of a name not covering all aspects of a person's ability. Terrakinesis is also shaky on grounds. In addition, certain depictions of Siren's display the creation of colourful waves when they play- exactly as Emma does. Samuel's comment adds more weight. Really, the only thing that prevents this from being a good name is the synesthesia aspect. You could try "Synesthetic Siren's Song"...--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 13:40, 5 February 2010 (EST)
#:::::It accounts for all the effects you said. By "writing", in can implant things in the mind, a thought, an emotion, which physically speaking is no different from thoughts, which is the communication of neurons. Also by "writing", he can overwrite things, erasing memories. And the trickiest of all was actually explained in a BTE. Since telepathy is an ability which gives access to the mind, the writers said that after his experience with Usutu, Matt learned to use his telepathy to enter the same realm of consciousness that precogs enter when they see the future. It's not perfect, but it is nonetheless logical and coherent as far as scifi goes. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 13:54, 5 February 2010 (EST)
#::Her ability is far too complicated to give a name that covers everything. There's no way to distill "seeing sound and playing music that lures people and damages things" into a two or three-word phrase. - [[User:Hive|Hive]] 15:49, 5 February 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 00:20, 9 February 2010 (EST) The Watcher calls her a siren in Purpose, part 6.

'''Sonic manipulation''' (not [[Sound manipulation]])
:<s>--[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 14:29, 19 January 2010 (EST) -- MaEI and Siren's song don't explain the blasts, and emotions are generally implied, thus SM is my choice.</s> Changed to Siren's song (see [[Purpose]], part 6)
::Integration of different emotions would yield different effects, something which can be properly explained in the main article.v[[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:45, 19 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Daevon|daevon]] 16:30, 28 January 2010 (EST)

== Emotion problem ==

From what we've seen of Peter's dream, Emma was using her ability at the carnival to presumably "slaughter thousands". However, it turned out that she was doing it, but Doyle was. We know that Doyle can manipulate a person's movement and make them use their abilities, but he cannot sway a person's mood. Also, Emma seems to be quite terrified in the dream. She didn't seem to want to do what she was doing, which seems to imply that her ability doesn't really on emotions as much as we assumed. Thoughts?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:48, 4 February 2010 (EST)
* Fear is an emotion, no?--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 16:05, 4 February 2010 (EST)
** It is, but wouldn't she need specific emotions to use certain aspects of her power? If that weren't true, then the ability could be used no matter how she is feeling, which also makes her emotions irrelevant.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:22, 4 February 2010 (EST)
***Remember Doyle said to Meredith that she couldn't use her ability unless he made her, perhaps when he does, ''he'' controls the ability. So it is possible that the emotions are based on his for the dream. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 16:31, 4 February 2010 (EST)
*** It's also possible that she's being threatened, so she's intentionally accessing certain emotions because of her fear.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 16:35, 4 February 2010 (EST)
**** She'd have to have extreme self-control in order to accomplish that, but it is possible.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:49, 4 February 2010 (EST)
***** I think that when she plays, she's always putting something in the song. She'll put whatever she's feeling at the moment unless she focus on a specific emotion or purpose. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:37, 4 February 2010 (EST)
****** Let's watch the finale to see what she's doing. If it turns out Emma is actually killing people with her music instead of just luring them, fear would be an appropriate emotion.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 14:36, 5 February 2010 (EST)
******* I think she can damage things if she have negative emotion, she's feeling sad when she cracked her wall and on Peter's dream her fingers was injured because of the strings or she was frightened by Doyle. While positive emotions can attract the people that she wanted. --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 06:10, 6 February 2010 (EST)

== Sound Wave Manipulation ==

I think Emma's ability is manipulating sound waves. She can manipulate it to become a beautiful music and destructive wave depend on her mood.
*That can easily describe [[sound manipulation]]. Right now, only the names above are up for discussion. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 13:10, 8 February 2010 (EST)

== Why the move? ==

Why has the page been moved? The ability has not been named specifically as Siren's song and no consensus was reached. It shouldn't have been moved. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 15:26, 9 February 2010 (EST)
*Consensus was reached. "Siren's song" has the most votes in a poll that's been open for around a month. Samuel has referred to her ability as this making it the most explicit option, and The Watcher called Emma a siren.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:28, 9 February 2010 (EST)
** That does not appear to be a consensus at all, unless the rules have changed. If they haven't this should be moved back to where it was. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 15:34, 9 February 2010 (EST)
***6 out of 13 isn't a consensus, that's less than 50%. Plus peter was called an empath, we didn't call his ability empathy, did we? And since all the watcher knows is that she's going to attract the thousands to the carnival, that's only one aspect. Her ability may be like STM, it has [[Teleporting|different]] [[Enhanced teleporting|aspects]] from [[Temporal rewind|different]] abilities. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 15:36, 9 February 2010 (EST)
****It's six out of 12, for starters (I changed my vote). Samuel described it as a siren's song, and in the latest iStory, the Watcher explicitly calls her a siren. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 15:37, 9 February 2010 (EST)
***I don't understand what we should have waited for then. Siren's song has the majority of votes, and the poll was open for a quite a while, everyone had a chance to vote. We had an "opposition consensus" beforehand to narrow down the choices, like we're supposed to. The name itself was said in a canon source and implied in a near canon source, while the rest were descriptive level 5 names. Obviously everyone is not going to agree, but how long should we have waited?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:38, 9 February 2010 (EST)
****The watcher is not a reliable source as I pointed out above. A consensus is a general agreement, which 50% is not. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 15:41, 9 February 2010 (EST)
*****Siren's song was mentioned by Samuel in a canon source, every other name is descriptive, the consensus was redundant in the first place.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:42, 9 February 2010 (EST)
**** First, it was 6/13 in the poll, which is hardly a consensus to change anything (again, by old standards...I've been gone awhile). Second, 3 of those 6 votes came within the last week or so, so I don't think we can really say that it has been a month since Siren's Song was held by a majority to be the best option. Finally, here is what it says about [[Help:Consensus checks|consensus checks]]: <br>"The consensus check will end once a consensus has been reached or if a consensus cannot be reached. If a consensus is reached, the article will then be moved or altered as required. If a consensus is not reached then nothing should be done to the article and it should be left as it is until more information becomes available. '''The only exception to this is a consensus check used to determine the name of an ability. If no consensus can be reached (that is, there is at least one valid opposition to all suggested names for the ability), then the ability should be named after its possessor. ...Once there is legitimate opposition to an item, it can be crossed off and excluded from the check.'''"<br /> Not only does it seem to me that Siren's song should not have been in the poll since it had significant opposition, even after it was in the poll it fails the second part...there is at least one valid opposition to the change...namely by IE and mc hammark in this case (and I'll back them on that as well). As for Siren's Song being canon, that is another argument (namely the old 'description vs naming' one). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 15:49, 9 February 2010 (EST)
I have contacted an admin about the current situation. It'd be nice if we all could wait for further clarification and not move the page back and forth, as it would be quite a bother to have to move the page, talk page, theory page, change all the redirects and character templates etc. We'll keep discussing but leave the page as it is until an admin decides.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 15:50, 9 February 2010 (EST)
* No worries on that front from me...I rarely move or change anything without completing discussion first (except for little things). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 15:58, 9 February 2010 (EST)
**Agreed. We can wait. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 15:59, 9 February 2010 (EST)
**On that note I'd like to apologize for possibly moving the page prematurely. I thought that we had reached consensus and interpreted the naming conventions differently from some others. I didn't mean to cause such argy-bargy (LOVE that word...).--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:01, 9 February 2010 (EST)
*** No worries. :) --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 16:14, 9 February 2010 (EST)
**** I don't really see anything wrong with the move. In the second round of the consensus check, only unopposed names, that is, names that the community unanimously consider to be at least acceptable, can be chosen -- but what unopposed name to chose can be decided with a simple majority vote since all names are adequate.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 16:19, 9 February 2010 (EST)
***** Strength of argument is also important in those cases. I just hope that people don't go around changing links to Siren's song like crazy, that'll be quite boring to revert. Oh, and about the Watcher, I don't follow the iStories, but did he have prior knowledge on Emma's ability, or did he draw conclusions from what he overheard from Samuel? Because if that's so he described only one aspect of her ability, not its entirety. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:06, 9 February 2010 (EST)
******As far as we are aware he only overheard the conversation with Samuel, Emma and Doyle. The one from the show. I don't think that's a credible source because he only heard about one aspect. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 19:18, 9 February 2010 (EST)
*******''As far as we are aware'' being the key part of that sentence. We can't speculate on how much he knows, he has as much credibility as any other non-scientist on the show.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 19:22, 9 February 2010 (EST)
********The exact lines are ''"How do you think everyone's going to find us? You're going to bring them here!" Samuel says. ""He had a dream I played the cello!" she replies. "He said thousands of people would die!" "She's a siren," The Watcher whispers. "She'll bring them all here. Samuel will end them all!"''. It seems like the Watcher knew what Emma's ability was before overhearing it, he was able to piece together what her ability was from "bring them here" and "cello". I find it highly unlikely he'd put it together in such a way unless he had some sort of experience with the ability.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:46, 9 February 2010 (EST)
******IE, since I potentially caused this I'll change back all the links if necessary.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 19:28, 9 February 2010 (EST)
**** Referos - I wasn't around, though I've read the consensus, and I was wondering what the basis for moving Siren's song to the second round of the consensus and not doing so with enhanced synesthesia was. Both had opposition, arguments, counter-arguments and counter-counter arguments. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 22:25, 9 February 2010 (EST)
*****Enhanced synesthesia was in the second round. It received a single vote.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 22:42, 9 February 2010 (EST)
****** In that round, Referos claimed that it had been eliminated due to opposition and should not be in that round. It is the only name in that round with a strikethrough through it, so it's possible some people thought it had already been eliminated. Plus, it was the name we were using already, so without a consensus to change it, it would have remained (or been changed to 'Emma's ability). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 23:07, 9 February 2010 (EST)
*******Ah. I wasn't involved in that, but from the looks of it mc hammark made his point legitimate, the strikethrough was just not removed. Regardless, MiamiVolts responded to the message I left on his talk page, saying that since "Siren's song" was mentioned on the show in relation to Emma's ability, only another name mentioned or derived from canonical material can be considered. The majority supports "Siren's song", so that's what the article will stay, for now at least.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 23:49, 9 February 2010 (EST)
******** Enhanced synesthesia received four oppositions in the first round; it was thus eliminated for the second round. If mc hammark or any other user wanted enhanced synesthesia to remain valid, he would need to address each single opposition that the name received in the first round, otherwise that would be disrespectful with the ones that originally opposed it.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 06:23, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*On two different occasions via two different mediums of the series she has now been explicitly refered to a "a siren". The ONLY possible aspect of her entire existence that could qualify her as one of those is her ability. You can say "Well Samuel wasn't clear" and "What does the watcher know?" but the answer truely is a darn sight more than any of us in terms of the story. If ever there was a case of canon deciding a debate it should be this one, seeing as all of us are so unsure as to what her ability is.--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 09:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**Like it was pointed out, Siren's song has opposition with viable, and hitherto unchallenged counterarguments to everything people who support it threw. I would rather have this Emma's ability before this stayed as Siren's song, and I believe I'm not the only one who feels like that. Calling this Siren's song would be the equivalent of renaming telepathy to "mind reading". It does that, but it's much more than that. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 09:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***And the main argument for it is that it's canon. If we don't follow that right now, we create double standards. I'm not saying either is right, but so long as Tracy's has to be Freezing because of canon, and Healing touch left as healing touch, then this should stay as Siren's song.--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 09:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****All the more reason for us to do it. Canon isn't just what is said explicitly, it's everything we see on the episodes. And getting this to a fitting name would be an argument to get the split of Tracy from freezing, rename of her ability, and rename of healing touch on the go. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:10, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*****Wrong. Once again, it's not our job to speculate, but to chronicle. The show seemed clear that "siren's song" was the intended name. It doesn't matter if it "doesn't quite fit", it's canon. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 10:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******Then let's call it Emma's ability. By no means it's speculation and it is accurate regardless of what the ability. As said above, there is viable opposition to the name, and if all current names have viable opposition, the ability is to be named after its holder. I get going by the book, I'm the biggest "by the book" I know, but that doesn't mean the book is right. Too much "by the book" makes people narrow-minded, and as long as we go by that, needless discussion like this will happen, hindering the wiki. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:32, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*******The irony being that such rules or "the book" as you put it exist in an effort to create consistency and continuinty and yet since Tracy began to dribble all that's been happening is futile discussion about whether that's correct. All I'm saying here is, IMO, if canon is to be followed, then this needs to be Siren's song. That's just my two cents.--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 10:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********That's the entire reason why naming policies have to be changed. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a book, what I'm saying is that we need enough flexibility to avoid situations like these, when outdated info is taken to be accurate despite overwhelming evidence of the contrary, abilities being named after one effect of the ability rather than an all-effects encompassing name. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 11:07, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*********How is any of this outdated? It's a twice-used explicit naming of her and her ability, in a canon source. That's what we're supposed to do. The "all-effects encompassing name" is when we have literally NO canon sources (like [[disintegration]]). We've been given a name, and the purpose of this wiki is to reflect that information. Not to say "well, they said this, but they REALLY mean this." --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 11:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**********Then we should get used to it. And Healing touch. And Freezing. And remove the name change tags whilst we're at it, if this is a matter of black and white.--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 11:22, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***********Uh, the outdated info part was about Tracy and Jeremy's ability, not Emma's, I just used those as examples along with this to showcase the situations inflexible rules can create. My main problem with this is that it was moved prematurely. I know she was called a siren in the iStory, but there was no time for others to learn that, to take it in, no time at all to discuss the fact another character called her a siren. Even if this ends up as it is, even with most people who voted for this simply did that and dropped out of the discussion, this opens a precedent for it to be done again in the future. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 11:27, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******** We can't really be sure that "Siren's song" is intended to be the name for Emma's ability unless we get a reference like "Ability: Siren's song" or "Emma has siren's song". That is, "Siren's song" appeared in canon and near-canon sources, but it wasn't given explicitly.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 11:47, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*********The Watcher outright said "She's a siren." And Samuel called it her "siren's song". That's pretty explicit, not to mention corroborating references from two separate people. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 12:25, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**********They're talking about a single aspect of her ability. This is the same as people saying Matt can read minds. Sure he can, but his ability allows him to do much more than that. His ability is telepathy, which accounts for many effects, including but not limited to, mind reading. Concussive sound blasts don't look like a siren's song to me. They're referring to a particular application of her ability, not to the ability as a whole. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 12:28, 10 February 2010 (EST)
************ I didn't read the GN (ie - Watcher's comment) but if it is what is being quoted here ('She's a Siren'), then that is not, to me, naming her ability...at all. Sylar has been called a 'Serial killer...' would we have ever (meaning before his ability got officially named) taken that to refer to his ability? Grammatically, it just doesn't make sense. Samuel's comment can also be taken to be descriptive rather than named. Didn't Peter refer to her ability in a different way, earlier on when he discovered it? We never considered calling her ability 'seeing music' or whatever. The point is that there is significant opposition to the name Siren's song, and the two comments that support it in canon/near-canon are hardly definitive enough to say 'the ability was called that explicitly' (almost everyone arguing for Siren song to remain admits that in their arguments). As such, this should be renamed to Emma's ability, imo. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 12:39, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***********Telepathy (as a name) in no way explains illusions, persuasion, nightmares, dream manipulation, or precognition. We were given a name, and it's the name we need to use. Peter's descriptions were confused, and he didn't know what was going on. Samuel and the Watcher's descriptions were definitive, and they knew exactly what was going on. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 12:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)
************<small>On a small note, telepathy ''does''. Telepathy literally means movement of thoughts. Movement to, movement from. Thoughts can cause persuasion, illusions, dreams, and, distantly, precognition.</small> --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 12:47, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*************Telepathy as a concept, however, is most commonly simply mindreading, and in rare instances communication by sending thoughts. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 12:51, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*Stevehim, that's not a fair comparison. You have to take into account that Samuel's comments were directly about her ability, whereas some random person calling Sylar a serial killer is just that- just someone calling him a serial killer. The subject matter of the comments- i.e. Samuel's being about her ability and the Sylar example being just about Sylar in general distinguish those two. Yes, it's descriptive, but that in itself carries weight over just calling it "Emma's ability".—Evil Maldini 12:49, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**************But if it's descriptive then it needs to cover ''all'' aspects of it. The real opposition is the fact samuel said "like" and the fact both he and the watcher were only refering to the one aspect of it. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 12:55, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***************But it's not descriptive. The "descriptive name" tier of abilities is when we look at something like [[Tom's ability]] and say "Well, he disintegrates things, so his power is '''[[disintegration]]'''." It's when we have literally no information but what we see. This is a name given in a canon source, the highest tier. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 12:59, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**Sorry, I wasn't refering to the naming conventions when I said "it's descriptive"- I was on about description in general.--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 13:01, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***But it wasn't given explicitly; now if Samuel had said your ability is a siren's song, ''then'' yes i'd support it, but the fact he only compared it to it (hence the word "''like''") makes it a comparison, and not explicit. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 13:03, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****The Watcher said "She is a siren." That's about as explicit as it gets. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:13, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*****And Peter's an empath? --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 13:16, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******"Empath" has been used (by the carnies) to refer to anyone with an empathic ability. Peter had [[empathic mimicry]] (and to a point, one could argue that [[ability replication]] is still just a weakened EM), Lydia had [[empathy]], and Joseph had [[empathic manipulation]]. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*******'''''Exactly'''''. The same can be said of siren. There could be another ability out there with just the ability to call people to them. A siren. The point about the watcher is he only knows about that singular aspect of the ability, which in itself, could be a separate ability altogether. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 13:22, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********Until we see another person with a similar ability, that is an ''assumption'', which is something we're not supposed to do in naming these abilities. The show gave us "siren's song", and we can't assume that it's just a description. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 13:32, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********Yeah, I'm starting to think you guys are taking these names a bit too much word for word... I think it was mentioned beforehand that it was called '''Enhanced Synesthesia''', and y'all were defending that like it was written in stone; why not include on the page that it was also referred to as a Siren's song, but keep the ability page name "Enhanced Synesthesia''?
User:Shadowulf1 13:25, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********* Evil Maldini - My 'serial killer' comment was in reference to Watcher's comment of calling her a Siren (a name that describes a person), not with regards to Samuel's comment (incidentally, it wasn't a random person that called Sylar that...most of the characters have called him that...Mohinder, Noah, Nathan, Peter, Angela, etc). As such, Watcher's comment should not be taken to naming an ability, as it did not...it described a person. So all we have is Samuel's comment (and at best you can use Watcher's comment to bolster it...but once Samuel's comment falls, so goes Watcher's). <br />As for Samuel's comment...again, it comes down to whether it was an actual naming of an ability, or if it was describing it. You can't just say that 'it's all we have, and since it's from the show it's canon and trumps all else)...we don't have a canon source for Electric Manipulation (we have a near-canon one), but I am fairly certain that I can dig up someone in the show describing Elle's power in some way...maybe like 'throwing bolts of lightning.' We don't change her ability to 'lightning throwing' simply because it was in the show, because it is clearly more descriptive than naming. <br />Thus we are brought back to one question: Was Samuel's comment an actual naming of the ability, or did it describe it from his POV? There seems to be significant division on this point...as such, I would think that would mean that the community cannot decide whether it was description or naming, which would indicate that it should probably be moved to Emma's ability. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:01, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*Under the current naming conventions this is name we have to keep. We don't take everything we see as evidence, only what we hear for an ability name. If this is to be challenged, it must be done at the naming conventions, but not here.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 14:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**Also, I'm little disappointed with the community. If you thought that "Siren's song" shouldn't have made it to the second round of consensus, you should have said something during the few weeks the poll was open. Saying "well, it shouldn't have been there in the first place" after it gains a majority of votes isn't cool, and defeats the point of taking a consensus.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 14:11, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*** Re: The community - It can be frustrating, I understand, but people have different schedules, and cannot always get to these things in a timely fashion (eg - you'll notice that none of the admins have commented on this issue yet, except when you posted it to one of their talkpages). Personally, I long ago accepted that things that the arguments I support or put forth would not always carry through, which is why I think it is important to have these 'back-and-forth' discussions on the talk pages. That way, when some thoughts are not the prevailing ones (eg - like mine, here ;)), there is a record of the objections and a good discussion fleshing out the points. What I mean to say is that I am fine with things like keeping this page 'Siren's song,' if that's what is ultimately decided, but like to use the discussion pages as a forum to say why I think it should be otherwise...while I would like to sway people to my way of thinking via debate (naturally), I'm also ok with just having my opinion on the matter in this tab instead. I also think that bringing things up again over time, usually when there's new evidence, but also when the community expands to get new opinions, is a good thing (eg - see the current enhanced strength talk page, or the controversy about RCR EH's being able to die or not) :)--[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***Wow, wow, wow, hang on a second. I was very against "siren's song" from the very beginning, and I wasn't the only one who opposed it. Don't use the "you should have opposed it before" card, that's ''not'' going to work. I still don't understand ''how'' it managed to get to the second round when there was significant opposition to it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:15, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****** Just thought of something else...how is Samuel's comment considered 'naming the ability' and Micah's (about Niki having 'super strength,' not? I would put Micah as the more informed character if I had to choose, and there is MUCH more of a consensus to split the enhanced strength page (13 to 1 for the split) than there is here. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:20, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******* Like I said before, Samuel used Siren's song to describe '''one''' aspect of her ability, like other characters tell Matt to "read someone's mind" when they want him to use telepathy. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:15, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******* Micah's comment is one of the reasons the split is (supposedly) happening. Both were naming an ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 15:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********The abilities in question are vastly different, and the Emma's ability is much more complex than Niki's. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:27, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******** All of the information (ie - Micah's comment, Knox's AT etc) were present ''before'' the merge, and were thoroughly discussed back then, so you can't really use that as a reason for support here until it actually occurs there, meaning it was decided that Micah's comment did not name Niki's ability (and thus Samuel's should not name Emma's, imo). As of right now, Micah's comment was deemed to be descriptive, rather than naming, or else we'd have had a 'super strength' page for well over a year...but we don't have that even today. And if Micah's comment is descriptive, I don't see how Samuel's is not. If that page gets split, then at that time that will be evidence to be used to support the Siren's song argument. Until then, the convention used there should be used here, imo. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 15:48, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*********Actually, there wasn't that much discussion when Knox's AT came out, someone simply decided to keep the page as one just because. Micah's comment was about something that was the whole of the ability, all that Niki could do was use her strength. In this case, Emma's ability has a versatility that wasn't present in Niki's, it's not the same case. A description of one aspect of the ability mustn't be used to name the entire ability, that's what people have to acknowledge. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********** There was a [[Talk:Enhanced_strength/Archive_1#Rename| good amount of discussion about Knox/Niki]], actually. I see what you're saying with trying to encompass the whole ability, but that's been a problem many times in the past (eg - Knox's fear detection, Matt's ability to create illusions, Sylar's using TK to fly and for relative invulnerability, Freezing also including water etc). There are too many ways to apply some of these abilities for us to find all-encompassing names all the time, and I don't think we need to. If the writer's come out and state something as an ability (through a character or some other way), then it shouldn't matter if it covers all of the bases. It only matters whether or not they stated it or not. For example, if Noah had seen Emma draw people to her using her ability and explicitly stated that "her ability is Siren song," there would be no argument about what this was called. However, if he did not see her visualize music in terms of color or slice walls with it, he would not have named it based on a comprehensive knowledge of all aspects of her ability...meaning that your argument against Siren song would be the same as it is now (that it didn't address some aspects of her ability), but the matter would be settled as it would be named by a character in the show. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 16:28, 10 February 2010 (EST)

******** This isn't official because the naming conventions don't say anything about this, but from what I could understand from sysops' comments it works kinda like this with canon sources:
* If an ability name appears in a format like "Your ability is _____", "Unique ability:_______", "You have _______", or similar, then the ability is coming from an explicit source.
* Otherwise, the source for the ability's name is a description.

So for instance, all AT profiles are obviously explicit sources. Mohinder's comment "You are the first one with [[adoptive muscle memory]]" is an explicit source. Micah's comment "Mom, with your [[super strength]]..." is an explicit source; i.e., the ability is clearly named.

On the other hand, things like "Ando, you're like a supercharger!" is a ''descriptive'' source for [[supercharging]], because the ability is being given a ''description''. "Tina Ramierez can exhale chlorine gas" is a ''descriptive'' source for [[chlorine gas exudation]]. "Marcus can crumple things" is a ''descriptive'' source for [[crumpling]]. So yeah, "You can bring people to you, like a Siren's song" or "She's a siren" are ''descriptive'' sources for [[Siren's song]].

Obviously, names from explicit sources take precedent, but it's better to use one from a descriptive source than a fan-invented term...

Regarding the move, I agree with IE that it was done prematurely. If I remember correctly, "music and emotion integration" had the lead for a few days, but the page wasn't moved instantaneously. Why do this now? Additionally, I think that a flaw with the current consensus check is adding counter-arguments in order to "unoppose" names. I felt that it kinda becomes a game of hot potato. You add an opposition, I add a counter-argument, you add a counter-counter-argument, I add a counter-counter-counter-argument, etc, whoever is the last one to post something wins. That doesn't seem like a consensus to me.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 15:22, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*Strength of argument is (or at least is supposed to be) more important than actual votes, I believe. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:27, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**Level 5 is names we come up with as descriptions. If it's from a canon source, it's a level 1 no matter what, description or not. As for electric manipulation and enhanced strength, those abilities had an assignment tracker, which is an exception to the naming conventions due to its explicit nature. However, Emma's ability does not have one, so we stay with the canon name. And IE, if you opposed "Siren's song" in the second round of consensus, why didn't you remove it? I only added it to the poll because it had not been crossed out, but it still could have been removed. It's just sour grapes at this point. Consensus check will ''not'' work if we refuse name supported by the majority because "it never should have been there in the first point". Also, this is all beside the point that ''"siren's song" is the only name to be mentioned in a canon source''. It doesn't matter whether it was a description or not, unless we have a more explicit canon or near-canon source (like an assignment tracker, or even a GN description) we '''must''' stick with this name. Like I said above, if you think this is an issue, go to the naming conventions article, there is already a debate there. Here is not the place to debate issues with the naming conventions.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:29, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***I did strike it out, more than once, but every time someone added a counterargument, even a half *ss argument, they'd uncross it. Check the page history if you want. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:36, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****I'd check, but this pages history is now ridiculously long due to this debate. I'll take your word for it. I apologize for my comment then, but you could see where I was coming from. Regardless, this debate is going in circles.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:38, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*** Enhanced strength had an AT for Knox, not for Niki. Just to point out, the second round of the consensus check (ie - the poll) had 6 votes for Siren's song and 5 for Music and emotion integration...that is hardly a reason to move something to Siren's song (and since there were 13 total votes, it's not even a majority; it's a plurality). As for the naming conventions, that's not what they say at all. A description from a canon source is trumped by "Names in common use in other works," and a consensus is needed to take the description in any case. If no consensus can be reached, then Holder's ability trumps description. It's not really sour grapes, as this was brought up directly after the article was moved (well, before then actually, but again right after). According to the naming conventions and consensus rules, this article should not have been renamed. Additionally, Siren's song violates several of the naming convention guidelines pertaining to descriptive names. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 16:40, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****It's a canon name. Level 5 are descriptive names ''we'' come up with. Enhanced strength is in the middle of a split, MaEI had 4 votes.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*****PJ, it's like I said about a million words ago- so long as we treat canon as priority, black and white, this debate is futile. We either get used to this, or mount a charge to change the naming conventions. Simple as. --[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 16:48, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******Right, I've been trying to get people to direct the attention to the naming conventions article as opposed to this isolated case.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:49, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*******Checked over 50 revisions, will check more, but here's what I found: [http://heroeswiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Siren%27s_song&diff=next&oldid=416149 me crossing out Siren's song], after you (PJDEP) and I discussed it at length, [http://heroeswiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Siren%27s_song&diff=next&oldid=416160 PJDEP] uncrossing it. I remember now, I didn't cross it immediately because we were still discussing the name, but it stopped for a while, and since your argument for it account for smashing walls was the figurative of boats smashing due to the sailors being distracted by the song, I crossed it. Then a while later you came in and uncrossed it. I also remember getting loads of edit conflicts. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*******PJDEP wrote: "It's a canon name." - that's one of the things being debated here. As I stated earlier, that there is a debate for splitting enhanced strength is not remotely the same as it being split...there was a larger debate back when it happened. Since it is not yet split, it is evidence that things said by characters aren't always explicit names of abilities. If the page is split, then you can use it as evidence to support Samuel's statement. MaIE has 5 votes, though it seems one came after the move...but 6-4 is not much better than 6-5. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 16:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*******The reason you gave for crossing it out was "(If sonic manipulation goes for not using all aspects, so does this)". That was after a user crossed out a majority of names for that reason. However, since sonic manipulation was uncrossed, I restored "siren's song", if I remember correctly,--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 17:02, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********I'm sorry, let me correct myself. Sonic manipulation was crossed out due to the above reason, but that reason does not apply to canon names. Sonic manipulation was also uncrossed later.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 17:04, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*********Like I said, I didn't cross names immediately because there was still discussion on them, so when I saw that others were being crossed out for a much simple reason, I crossed that out for the same reason. Before MaEI, I was rooting for sonic manipulation. So I guess we fall back to Samuel describing the ability or the aspect of ability issue. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:06, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*What is this? The debate for Health Care reform or a person's ability name? Has it cross anyone else's mind that some people might be "wrong" for lack of a better term, but are just not willing to see it or admit it? If that's the case, I don't see this debate ending anytime soon. Some of us are just way too stubborn to agree with a name from a list of excellent sounding and well though up names that would work. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
** Should we really be calling it 'Health Care Reform?' That seems more descriptive to me, and we already have an [http://www.whitehouse.gov/Issues/health-Care explicitly stated canon-name] for it. ;) --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 17:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*** I can't believe I'm going to say this, but, technically, this page cannot be named "Siren's song" because the infamous "must cover all aspects" rule ''still'' exists. I fully agree with PJDEP that we should be discussing the naming conventions; I mean, how many examples do we need to realize it isn't working, in the sense that it only creates fruitless debate instead of swiftly solving things?--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 18:24, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**** For the last time, the "all aspects" rule is '''''only''''' for lowest-tier names for which we have been given no hint of a name. This is not the case here. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:34, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*****Beat me to it. "Cover all aspects" only applies to level 5.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 18:36, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****** That's my entire point! The naming conventions haven't been fixed to remove/alter this rule and that was what? three months ago? Currently that rule applies to '''''all''''' names, so if go by the book, we explode!--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 18:45, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******* The rule exists so that we can ''chronicle'' the show, instead of ''speculating'' on it. You do realize that there are ''numerous'' canonically-named abilities whose names don't inherently cover all aspects, right? [[Adoptive muscle memory]], [[empathy]], [[freezing]], [[induced radioactivity]], [[intuitive aptitude]], [[memory manipulation]], [[mental manipulation]], [[rapid cell regeneration]], [[shape shifting]], [[sound manipulation]], [[telekinesis]], and [[telepathy]] are all abilities shown on the television show whose names do not encompass every aspect of their ability. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 18:54, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******** Freezing aside, all those names do describe what the abilities do, you just need to be willing to see how the effects connect with the ability. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:59, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*********They are related, but not included within the name. For instance, if taken literally "induced radioactivity" only includes Ted's ability to be radioactive. It doesn't include nuclear explosions or EMP's. They are closely related, but not directly within the name itself.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 19:01, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*********Likewise, rapid cell regeneration doesn't account for Claire's lack of pain, nor does shape shifting account for clothing, nor does sound manipulation account for Echo's "telephone" power. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 19:05, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**********Pain is the way the body tells it's in danger, because it's been harmed. Claire's body feels less pain because it heals fast, and because it knows it will heal, it no longer hurts. Shape shifting wasn't meant to work with clothes, it was a retcon. Telephones convert electricity into sound, his ability includes that conversion potential. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***********My point is, these names do not account for these ''specific'' aspects of their abilities. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 19:12, 10 February 2010 (EST)
************ Ricard, you're missing my point entirely. I'm not really arguing whether that rule is correct or not. Read the naming conventions, and notice that the "all aspects" rule, contrary to what you said, do not refer to only level 5 names. In fact it appears in the section related to names form canon, near-canon and secondary sources and to ''all'' names, explicit or not. Again, I will stress that I'm '''not''' arguing right now whether this rule is correct or not, but if we go by the book, exactly as the naming conventions tell us to do, we run into the same problem as Jeremy's power and Tracy's power. The big problem is that the naming conventions (this rule specifically) do not reflect what the community has chosen. Again, I'm not arguing if it's correct or not, but that should be fixed ASAP, regardless of how it's fixed.--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 19:15, 10 February 2010 (EST)
************* The admins have clarified that the "all aspects" rule does in fact only factor into Tier 5 names. Additionally, if the show gives us something canon, it honestly doesn't matter what the community has chosen. The show supersedes anything we debate over. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 19:50, 10 February 2010 (EST)
************** Well said, Ricard. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:20, 10 February 2010 (EST)
************** But what happens when canon contradicts itself? --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 20:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***************When that happens with dates, we usually put a link to a notes section and mention both sources, but I don't think we can do that in this case. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 20:39, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***************** Yeah, probably doesn't work beyond dates. I actually should have posted this on the naming conventions page, as the point I was leading to is more apropos to there. It does somewhat relate to Richard's comment in that we'd have to decide one way or another, and in that case the community debate would supersede canon. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 20:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)


Well, ''[[1963]]'' named "enhanced synesthesia" as an ability name, about as explicitly and officially as is possible. D'oh. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 15:42, 17 February 2010 (EST)
== My thoughts ==
*I never minded "enhanced synesthesia", I just took part in the whole rename thing because the likelihood of enhanced synesthesia remaining was next to zero, so I might as well support another name of my liking. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:46, 17 February 2010 (EST)
**''"I'm the one who moved it, because a) "Siren's song" had a majority (or plurality if you must, Stevehim ;)) and b) it is the only name, description or not, mentioned in a canon source. The point is, there is no other canon material that can be used to refute the name "siren's song". If something more explicit came along, even if it were in a GN, we would use it, but that is not the case."'' Well PJDEP, guess we're using it... lol :). --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 15:49, 17 February 2010 (EST)
***PJ sulk.....--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:02, 17 February 2010 (EST)
****Will we get started then? --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 16:03, 17 February 2010 (EST)
* I'm not sure why this is three steps back. I'm very happy that they gave us a name for the ability, no matter what it is. (Thanks, Howie!) -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 18:34, 17 February 2010 (EST)
**Notsomuch three steps back, but that we've been battling over this for months now, and they returned us to the first name we gave it. :P --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 19:59, 17 February 2010 (EST)
***The bitch of it is that they probably got this name from us. If only they had checked more recently.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:52, 17 February 2010 (EST)
****Not like it's the first time they've done [[Freezing|that]]. --[[User:Skullman1392|Skullman1392]] 20:56, 17 February 2010 (EST)
*Haha this is why I said we should wait it out :P --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 22:31, 17 February 2010 (EST)
**This was just bad luck. Anyways, nobody got hurt by renaming it "early".--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 00:53, 18 February 2010 (EST)
***Phew, better than siren song. I'm glad. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 01:02, 18 February 2010 (EST)
*** Why is that bad luck? There's nothing wrong with having multiple ways to describe and name a power. And with all the sensitivity that users seem to feel regarding the names of abilities, sometimes the only way to get a redirect to an ability is to have the page moved to that new name, and then moved back. I'm glad the name of the ability is [[enhanced synesthesia]], and I'm also glad that [[siren's song]] redirects there and is a valid way to describe the ability and to link to it. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 01:48, 18 February 2010 (EST)
****Bad luck meaning that they released a new name a week after changing it.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 01:56, 18 February 2010 (EST)
*So... I'm confused, why has this been downgraded in terms of canon? Wasn't the whole point of that huge debate that what Samuel said made Siren's song a tier 1 name ans thus unchangable? And now its been reverted due to a tier 2 source? That doesn't make a lot of sense.--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 05:45, 18 February 2010 (EST)
**One word: explicitness. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:09, 18 February 2010 (EST)
***That and it came from The Company files, which we consider to have more weight in saying what an ability is. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 10:12, 18 February 2010 (EST)
***Right. We used "Siren's song" because it was the ONLY thing we had from a canon or near-canon source to describe her ability. As Mc hammark so kindly pointed out above (:p), since we were using a description, if anything more explicit came along (and this is about as explicit as it can get), we'd change the name to that. That's what happened here. There's certain cases where the lines between canon and near-canon are blurred if a more explicit term comes along, like with gravitational manipulation and electrical manipulation.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 14:52, 18 February 2010 (EST)
****Fair enough, but would it not be a good idea to have a reference to Siren's Song in the description, e.g. "Enhanced Synesthesia (also referred to as a Siren's Song) is the ability to...."?--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 04:28, 19 February 2010 (EST)
*****I don't see why this would be step back, anyway...it was stated as '''Enhanced Synesthesia''' beforehand somewhere on this site anyway, wasn't it? (I could've sworn I saw it somewhere) User:Shadowulf1 16:36, 21 February 2010 (EST)
****** On this site, yes. In an in-world source, no. A quick history on the name: [[Heroes Interactive]] said that Emma had a "form of synesthesia", so we created "enhanced synesthesia". Then there were two overt mentions of Emma being a "siren" (one referencing her "siren's song"), so we renamed the ability "siren's song". Then the [[Primatech files]] on [[Chris Coolidge]] explicitly called the ability "enhanced synesthesia". I agree with you, Shadowulf--I don't see any steps backward, only steps forward. :) -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:17, 21 February 2010 (EST)
*******If anything, it may imply that they take our ideas into consideration for the show...maybe (And I like Enhanced synesthesia better than Siren's Song anyway to describe this power...that name isn't thorough enough... User:Shadowulf1 20:19, 21 February 2010 (EST)
******** Oh, yes, there's a long history of Heroes Wiki influencing in-world content. The naming of [[intuitive aptitude]] was one of the first examples. :) -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:30, 21 February 2010 (EST)
*******You're quite the optimist Ryan :P--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 21:34, 21 February 2010 (EST)
* Back to "Siren's song" in the Files of Primatech, Part 2.... --[[User:Juba|Juba]] 10:43, 3 March 2010 (EST)
** The novel's introduction (which is not canon or near-canon) describes the ability as "a siren-like ability". I'm not sure how that would affect the explicit name "enhanced synesthesia" in the novel before. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 10:53, 3 March 2010 (EST)
*** I think that the explicitness of "enhanced synesthesia" in part 1 out-ranks this one. Being called ES doesn't make it non-"Siren-like". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 11:05, 3 March 2010 (EST)


== Primatech Files, Part 2 ==
The above discussion is great. A lot of good points. Somebody called it a stalemate. I agree. I wanted to share my thoughts since admins were requested to share opinions here. But please remember, my opinion does not and should not carry any more weight than anybody else's. That said, my overarching mission on this site is to chronicle what the writers give us, even if we don't feel it's perfect. I like the name "Siren's song", but it's not a perfect name. Likewise "enhanced synesthesia". Neither completely covers every part of the ability. Since neither name was given to us explicitly, I wouldn't be opposed to a hybrid of the two names, like "synesthetic siren's song". It's has alliteration, but it's a bit of a mouthful. So if we decide to go with one of the two names that have been suggested to us, I would prefer "siren's song" simply because it was given in an episode, and "synesthesia" was not. I know the word was said in an episode, but I feel it was a description of the condition, not the ability. Heroes Interactive said that Emma has a form of synesthesia. That's great information, but I feel it should be superseded by the two mentions in the episodes. The HI content must go through the approval process with the producers, but the approval process is nowhere near as rigorous as the approval process (and scrutinizing) done by the writers for the episodes. (Additionally, I take Samuel's and The Watcher's expertise on the ability over Dr. Coolidge's.) <p>In short, I would be fine with either of the two names (well, three, if you count "synesthetic siren's song"), but I lean much more towards "siren's song". I will check the scripts for any other clues. The above discussion is long, so if I missed any points that need to be addressed, let me know. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 18:31, 10 February 2010 (EST)
The intro decribes enhanced synesthesia as "a siren-like ability to use music to affect people's emotions. Samuel seemed to say the opposite though, that the user's emotions were the important part. What do we make of this?--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 14:56, 3 March 2010 (EST)
*I would also prefer "siren's song", but I wouldn't mind "synesthetic siren's song", although I feel as if that's overkill. Also Ryan, could you shed some light on the consensus issue? If we didn't have a name from any canon material, would "siren's song" still be the most appropriate name, due to it's majority in the consensus poll?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 18:34, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*As far as names go, I think that the part one was more explicit than this. As far as effect goes, I think that the user can put his or her emotions into music, as well as affect the emotions of others. Chris wanted to go against the police, so he incited a riot with his ability. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:04, 3 March 2010 (EST)
** Yes, as far as I can see. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:21, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**I wasn't suggesting a name change, just to be clear. But I have a small issue with concerning the emotions of the user being part of this power. I don't know what type of mood would attract people, and Emma was in several different moods eveytime she used that particular aspect of her power. Also, even though Chris was still angry at the police, he seemed to imply that he could calm people down with his ability.--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 15:09, 3 March 2010 (EST)
* "Synesthetic siren's song" works for me. Also, thank you Ryan, for the response. :) --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
***I agree on the calm people aspect, he certainly looked as if he was going to that. About Emma, I don't know what to say. The best explanation I can give is that, because Samuel told her that she can attract people, that's sort of the default effect her playing has. She has to focus or to will something else to happen to produce any other effect. Kinda like a psychological thing. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 15:18, 3 March 2010 (EST)
** Now I'm probably just being difficult, but it was still a plurality, not a majority. ;) --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 19:02, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****I guess. I'd just like to alter the description a little bit, as the GN intro had some valuable information.--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 15:20, 3 March 2010 (EST)
***Semantics....--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 19:55, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**** It's really not. To take an extreme example, if you had 101 votes in 100 categories, the category that got 2 votes would be a plurality, but not a majority, and you'd basically view it the same as any other category (ie - you'd need to convert 49 other people to your way of thinking to attain a majority). In this case, one category has 6, one has 5, and there are two other with 1 each. I don't know why 6/13 would carry any more weight than 5/13 when trying to form a consensus (which isn't based on majority in any case). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 20:03, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*****I was joking.....--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
****** Oh...sorry. :) As a side note, regardless of how this ends, shouldn't 'Siren' be listed as an alias or nickname for Emma? --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 20:36, 10 February 2010 (EST)
******* Probably not, he called her ''a'' siren. He didn't call her "Siren". --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
********Don't worry about it ;). I don't see an issue for listing "siren" as an alias for Emma also.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:51, 10 February 2010 (EST)


== Can I be honest ==
== Luring and Blasting ==
Luring and Blasting describe the ability perfect as it describe what it does. It may not be a Canon name but neither is enhance synesthesia.
Most of the abilities that have only come up on heroes, have been name on here, what it does or the way it does it. --50000JH 06:44, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
*It's been called "enhanced synesthesia" multiple times in the GNs at this point. --'''[[User:Ricard Desi|<font color=#609000>Ricard</font>]]''' '''[[User talk:Ricard Desi|<font color=#609000>Desi</font>]]''' 10:34, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
**Plus, they can always add many effects to Emma's ability, what would we do then, add more names until the name of the ability had six lines? [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:07, 5 April 2010 (EDT)


== Ability Powers ==
I think that given the recent development of abilities in the last two volumes, a lot of the abilities don't seem to be the same as we initially thought. For example, it is perfectly plausible that Tracy always had a different ability with those two aspects, but only showed one first (much like Hiro first showed time manipulation before teleporting). If it were up to me, I'd probably say for all the abilities, rename them to X's ability and over the next few months we can decide, one ability at a time, whether that person has the same ability as another person, or whether it is different. Does anyone see where I'm coming from? --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 20:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)
At first it seems emma can see and visualize sounds as lights and colours, but she also sees vibrations as sound and sound = lights. plus enhanced synesthesia the name sounds strange,. what if it was something like synesopathy or... Synesthetic Visualization. the way when emma combines her emotions she also combines the lights and colours/sounds to create destructive powerful blasts, but what if in season 5 if they made one she had more control over her ability, enhanced synesthesia is the best ability i love in heroes. when time stopped she could move the lights around with her hand, so if shes moving the lights shes moving the sounds, and if she develops the ability to move them with her mind, like a syneskinesis she wouldnt need a cello, she could just move any sound into a blast or push, i would love to have enhanced synesthesia, plus when she defeated doyle using her blasts it looks pretty awesome!, i wonder how it looks like to everyone else, as if she was doing telekinesis?. i wish others could see her doing it though, maybe thats an upgraded version, hey theres a name "Upgraded Synesthesia" lol. -- [[User:Stiofanb|Stiofanb]] 18:16, 2 June 2010
*Or, if you really think it's necessary, we could leave the ability names as they are but start a debate anyway. I don't really see a need for it though.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:50, 10 February 2010 (EST)
* I thought about suggesting that, but most of them could just be done right away, and then what's the point of changing them to begin with except to make excess work. What I would suggest would be going through all of the abilities, making a list of the ones that are controversial in some way or require debate, and then taking it from there, if that's the path you want to go down. However, almost anything that would be on the list has already been exhaustively debated, often several times, so I don't really think we're going to get anywhere new...we're just going to have versions of what's going on here on 10 other pages as well. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 20:52, 10 February 2010 (EST)
**Well think about it, we're having debates over whether names should be called X or Y, when what we should really be asking is, do they really have the exact same ability? The prime example is Tracy. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 20:54, 10 February 2010 (EST)
*** It's really an issue of needing more specific naming conventions, imo (not that the ones we have aren't good...they provide a great framework, but we need to adapt to the evolution of the show). I posted something about Tracy [[Help_talk:Naming_conventions#Conflicting_rules.2Fguidelines|there]], if you want to check it out. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 20:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)

Latest revision as of 19:18, 2 June 2010

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources Episodes
Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine enhanced synesthesia's name.
Source/Explanation
The ability is explicitly called "enhanced synesthesia" in From the Files of Primatech, Part 1.
Archives Archived Topics
Sept 2009-Nov 2009 [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

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Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]]

Nov 2009-Jan 2010 [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]]

Jan 2010-Feb 2010 [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error |

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error ]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

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Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

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Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error]] • [[Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3#

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Two steps forward, three steps back

Well, 1963 named "enhanced synesthesia" as an ability name, about as explicitly and officially as is possible. D'oh. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:42, 17 February 2010 (EST)

  • I never minded "enhanced synesthesia", I just took part in the whole rename thing because the likelihood of enhanced synesthesia remaining was next to zero, so I might as well support another name of my liking. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:46, 17 February 2010 (EST)
    • "I'm the one who moved it, because a) "Siren's song" had a majority (or plurality if you must, Stevehim ;)) and b) it is the only name, description or not, mentioned in a canon source. The point is, there is no other canon material that can be used to refute the name "siren's song". If something more explicit came along, even if it were in a GN, we would use it, but that is not the case." Well PJDEP, guess we're using it... lol :). --mc_hammark 15:49, 17 February 2010 (EST)
  • I'm not sure why this is three steps back. I'm very happy that they gave us a name for the ability, no matter what it is. (Thanks, Howie!) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:34, 17 February 2010 (EST)
    • Notsomuch three steps back, but that we've been battling over this for months now, and they returned us to the first name we gave it. :P --Ricard Desi (t,c) 19:59, 17 February 2010 (EST)
      • The bitch of it is that they probably got this name from us. If only they had checked more recently.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:52, 17 February 2010 (EST)
        • Not like it's the first time they've done that. --Skullman1392 20:56, 17 February 2010 (EST)
  • Haha this is why I said we should wait it out :P --OutbackZack 22:31, 17 February 2010 (EST)
    • This was just bad luck. Anyways, nobody got hurt by renaming it "early".--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 00:53, 18 February 2010 (EST)
      • Phew, better than siren song. I'm glad. --Action Figure 01:02, 18 February 2010 (EST)
      • Why is that bad luck? There's nothing wrong with having multiple ways to describe and name a power. And with all the sensitivity that users seem to feel regarding the names of abilities, sometimes the only way to get a redirect to an ability is to have the page moved to that new name, and then moved back. I'm glad the name of the ability is enhanced synesthesia, and I'm also glad that siren's song redirects there and is a valid way to describe the ability and to link to it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2010 (EST)
  • So... I'm confused, why has this been downgraded in terms of canon? Wasn't the whole point of that huge debate that what Samuel said made Siren's song a tier 1 name ans thus unchangable? And now its been reverted due to a tier 2 source? That doesn't make a lot of sense.--Evil Maldini 05:45, 18 February 2010 (EST)
    • One word: explicitness. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:09, 18 February 2010 (EST)
      • That and it came from The Company files, which we consider to have more weight in saying what an ability is. --OutbackZack 10:12, 18 February 2010 (EST)
      • Right. We used "Siren's song" because it was the ONLY thing we had from a canon or near-canon source to describe her ability. As Mc hammark so kindly pointed out above (:p), since we were using a description, if anything more explicit came along (and this is about as explicit as it can get), we'd change the name to that. That's what happened here. There's certain cases where the lines between canon and near-canon are blurred if a more explicit term comes along, like with gravitational manipulation and electrical manipulation.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:52, 18 February 2010 (EST)
        • Fair enough, but would it not be a good idea to have a reference to Siren's Song in the description, e.g. "Enhanced Synesthesia (also referred to as a Siren's Song) is the ability to...."?--Evil Maldini 04:28, 19 February 2010 (EST)
          • I don't see why this would be step back, anyway...it was stated as Enhanced Synesthesia beforehand somewhere on this site anyway, wasn't it? (I could've sworn I saw it somewhere) User:Shadowulf1 16:36, 21 February 2010 (EST)
            • On this site, yes. In an in-world source, no. A quick history on the name: Heroes Interactive said that Emma had a "form of synesthesia", so we created "enhanced synesthesia". Then there were two overt mentions of Emma being a "siren" (one referencing her "siren's song"), so we renamed the ability "siren's song". Then the Primatech files on Chris Coolidge explicitly called the ability "enhanced synesthesia". I agree with you, Shadowulf--I don't see any steps backward, only steps forward. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:17, 21 February 2010 (EST)
              • If anything, it may imply that they take our ideas into consideration for the show...maybe (And I like Enhanced synesthesia better than Siren's Song anyway to describe this power...that name isn't thorough enough... User:Shadowulf1 20:19, 21 February 2010 (EST)
                • Oh, yes, there's a long history of Heroes Wiki influencing in-world content. The naming of intuitive aptitude was one of the first examples. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:30, 21 February 2010 (EST)
              • You're quite the optimist Ryan :P--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 21:34, 21 February 2010 (EST)
  • Back to "Siren's song" in the Files of Primatech, Part 2.... --Juba 10:43, 3 March 2010 (EST)
    • The novel's introduction (which is not canon or near-canon) describes the ability as "a siren-like ability". I'm not sure how that would affect the explicit name "enhanced synesthesia" in the novel before. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:53, 3 March 2010 (EST)
      • I think that the explicitness of "enhanced synesthesia" in part 1 out-ranks this one. Being called ES doesn't make it non-"Siren-like". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:05, 3 March 2010 (EST)

Primatech Files, Part 2

The intro decribes enhanced synesthesia as "a siren-like ability to use music to affect people's emotions. Samuel seemed to say the opposite though, that the user's emotions were the important part. What do we make of this?--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 14:56, 3 March 2010 (EST)

  • As far as names go, I think that the part one was more explicit than this. As far as effect goes, I think that the user can put his or her emotions into music, as well as affect the emotions of others. Chris wanted to go against the police, so he incited a riot with his ability. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:04, 3 March 2010 (EST)
    • I wasn't suggesting a name change, just to be clear. But I have a small issue with concerning the emotions of the user being part of this power. I don't know what type of mood would attract people, and Emma was in several different moods eveytime she used that particular aspect of her power. Also, even though Chris was still angry at the police, he seemed to imply that he could calm people down with his ability.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:09, 3 March 2010 (EST)
      • I agree on the calm people aspect, he certainly looked as if he was going to that. About Emma, I don't know what to say. The best explanation I can give is that, because Samuel told her that she can attract people, that's sort of the default effect her playing has. She has to focus or to will something else to happen to produce any other effect. Kinda like a psychological thing. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:18, 3 March 2010 (EST)
        • I guess. I'd just like to alter the description a little bit, as the GN intro had some valuable information.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:20, 3 March 2010 (EST)

Luring and Blasting

Luring and Blasting describe the ability perfect as it describe what it does. It may not be a Canon name but neither is enhance synesthesia. Most of the abilities that have only come up on heroes, have been name on here, what it does or the way it does it. --50000JH 06:44, 5 April 2010 (EDT)

  • It's been called "enhanced synesthesia" multiple times in the GNs at this point. --Ricard Desi 10:34, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
    • Plus, they can always add many effects to Emma's ability, what would we do then, add more names until the name of the ability had six lines? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:07, 5 April 2010 (EDT)

Ability Powers

At first it seems emma can see and visualize sounds as lights and colours, but she also sees vibrations as sound and sound = lights. plus enhanced synesthesia the name sounds strange,. what if it was something like synesopathy or... Synesthetic Visualization. the way when emma combines her emotions she also combines the lights and colours/sounds to create destructive powerful blasts, but what if in season 5 if they made one she had more control over her ability, enhanced synesthesia is the best ability i love in heroes. when time stopped she could move the lights around with her hand, so if shes moving the lights shes moving the sounds, and if she develops the ability to move them with her mind, like a syneskinesis she wouldnt need a cello, she could just move any sound into a blast or push, i would love to have enhanced synesthesia, plus when she defeated doyle using her blasts it looks pretty awesome!, i wonder how it looks like to everyone else, as if she was doing telekinesis?. i wish others could see her doing it though, maybe thats an upgraded version, hey theres a name "Upgraded Synesthesia" lol. -- Stiofanb 18:16, 2 June 2010

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