This wiki is a XML full dump clone of "Heroes Wiki", the main wiki about the Heroes saga that has been shut down permanently since June 1, 2020. The purpose of this wiki is to keep online an exhaustive and accurate database about the franchise.

Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3

From Heroes Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Archive.jpg WARNING: Talk:Enhanced synesthesia/Archive 3 is an archive of past messages. New messages should be added to Talk:Enhanced synesthesia. Archive.jpg


It's been a while, and four names remain after the consensus check.

  • I honestly can't vote for either of these names. With only a few episodes left, and Emma being a big part of it, it's honestly best to wait to see what happens with her ability. Which is why I said it's best to call it Emma's ability for the meantime. --OutbackZack 17:41, 20 January 2010 (EST)
  • I agree with OBZ, it won't kill us to wait two more weeks, then we'll have 8 or 9 months to discuss it before S5. --mc_hammark 19:35, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    • It wouldn't, but the world won't end if we pick a name that is somehow way off the mark. Also, we have more then enough information to name this ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:19, 20 January 2010 (EST)
      • I feel like we really don't. We're going off on what Samuel has said, who isn't the best person to listen to, because he says whatever he can to gain something. I never said the word would end. I'm saying let's be smart about this and see what happens. Patience pays off. --OutbackZack 20:31, 20 January 2010 (EST)
        • I wasn't suggesting anything by using the phrase "the world will end" just to clarify, I like to exaggerate. And we can't discriminate against sources, otherwise we'll add a whole new dimension to the already-disputed naming conventions.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:35, 20 January 2010 (EST)
          • We actually do weight in the sources when someone says something about an ability on the show. We know more is gong to happen, let's wait and see if we're on the right track.--OutbackZack 20:38, 20 January 2010 (EST)
  • Yes, we may take something Mohinder says over something Micah says, but we don't decide that the source may be dishonest unless it's incredibly obvious. We know several effects of the ability and that it works through emotions. I don't think anymore time is necessary.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:40, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    • Yet the naming conventions states we must come up with a name that describes all aspects of the ability. Which no one as manage to come up with. We're also ignoring another source that clearly uses the word synesthesia.--OutbackZack 20:42, 20 January 2010 (EST)
      • Those rules are for descriptive names only I believe, as they ignored by several names taken from canon and near-canon sources. "Siren's song" was actually said in an episode, and "music and emotion integration" is derived from a comment Samuel made about the ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:46, 20 January 2010 (EST)
  • Out of curiosity, how long does the poll last?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:01, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Keep as Enhanced Synesthesia

  1. --mc_hammark 06:47, 21 January 2010 (EST) I see no reason why we can't vote for the page to stay here just now rather than voting it to be a different name then having to go through the same thing in 2 or 3 weeks time.
    I don't mind the current name, while vague, it is accurate, I'm just in this so that if the ability is renamed, it'll be to something accurate. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:13, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    You can't vote to keep it as "enhanced synesthesia". We're currently performing the second round of the consensus check; "enhanced synesthesia" received opposition and was removed in the first round. Sorry.--Referos 10:34, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    If that is so Siren's Song also has to be eliminated, arguments against the name are overwhelming. Counterarguments against the ones which eliminated this have yet to be countered as well. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:39, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    I believe we're allowed to vote for the page to say that it stays where it is, otherwise, we'd definitely have to move any page with a split thing. --mc_hammark 10:46, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Emotional sound manipulation

  1. --Riddler 18:57, 19 January 2010 (EST)

Music and emotion integration

  1. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 08:02, 19 January 2010 (EST) Sonic manipulation being my second option.
  2. --TanderixUTCR 20:31 (Italy), 19 January 2010
  3. --Referos 18:51, 19 January 2010 (EST)
  4. ---- By Danko CH 11:42, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  5. --Darkfiremaster13 23:58, 19 January 2010 (EST) Altough I agree on what PJDEP said, it will sound more good with a hypen than with the "and" like Space-Time Manipulation
    That's an excellent point, we don't call it "space and time manipulation"--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:10, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    They don't have the "and" because of the mathematical model which makes them part of the same thing, it's neither one nor the other, just both. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:19, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    IE, do you actually oppose writing it as "music-emotion integration" or are you just playing devil's advocate?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:36, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    I was merely pointing out the validity of the "and" in this name by pointing out the reason it isn't used in another ability name. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:38, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    I'm just saying that it will sound much good with a hypen and just saying an example, Hiro calls himself a "master of space and time" not a "master of space-time" and yet we named the ability with a hypen. I'm not saying that having an "and" was not valid but it will sound less clumsy as PJDEP said. --Darkfiremaster13 03:40, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    It was named "space-time manipulation" because space-time is a legitimate physics concept. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:03, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    Hiro can choose to manipulate one at a time as well, so he can master time, and he can master space, or he can master time and space; that's why he says this. --mc_hammark 06:47, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    I'm not saying that it was wrong, I'm just stating an example. It was alright for me if the ability name have an "and" or a "hypen" that's why I voted for this ability name --Darkfiremaster13 02:33, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    Doesn't this only explain one aspect of the ability? Yes, she can make her music and emotions come together, but she can also see sound as colour, create what seems as a sonic blast, and bring people to her. To me, 'Sirens song' fits better, because like the creatures (a siren) they draw people to them to kill them, using music. Seems to fit just about right.--heroesobsession 13:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)
    Siren's song describes less her ability than this one does. There is no name which accounts for all the effects of her ability, this is the one which describes most of them. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 21:14, 2 February 2010 (EST)
    I'm afraid I have to disagree, on the notion that Mozart was capable of integrating music and emotions by means of musical composition, yet it is by no means a superhuman ability. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:18, 2 February 2010 (EST)
    That's completely different; Mozart never composed a music that literally hypnotised people.--Referos 11:44, 3 February 2010 (EST)
    My point exactly. This ability name is extraordinarily vague, and the term "music and emotion integration" could just as easily apply to an instance of musical composition. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:39, 3 February 2010 (EST)
    And her ability isn't all over the place as well? There are several aspects to it, this isn't a core ability with many applications, it's a more complicated version of mental manipulation, only this time it's much harder to find a name to account for the effects. A vague ability calls for a vague name. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:52, 3 February 2010 (EST)
    I can make plants grow faster than it would be naturally possible by adding fertilizer. Therefore, I have plant growth? An ability doesn't need to have a name that evokes its superhuman qualities, otherwise we would need to rename a lot of powers. I can freeze things with liquid nitrogen; I can manipulate sound using a computer, I can feel empathy for another person; you get the idea.--Referos 17:05, 3 February 2010 (EST)
    Actually, you don't do any of those things. The fertilizer speeds the plants' growth. The liquid nitrogen freezes things, and the computer manipulates sound. Even with empathy, one can say from a psychological standpoint that we only attempt to empathize, but without feeling their feelings and knowing their experiences (which is what that ability does), one cannot truly empathize. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:39, 3 February 2010 (EST)
    Why are there an argument about this ability name not having all the aspect, This was the best name of the three. Siren's Song doesn't even cover her ability, she didn't sing she only plays. Sonic Manipulation was for too broad, her emotion was needed for her ability to take an effect. Ok, it doesn't cover her ability to see the light but it was said that she have a synesthesia. Peter can also see the light because the light was the "sound" and was needed by the ability. --Dark Master 07:15, 4 February 2010 (EST)
    You need not sing for it to be a song. When I play a saxophone, it's still a song. Yes, the source material relates to the singing of a siren, but a song can be any musical arrangement. That said, there is discussion below as to whether or not she actually does need a specific emotion (or emotions at all -- perhaps it was simply easier for her to focus by using an emotion, it's hard to say). Sonic manipulation does actually cover all aspects. She can see sound (an internal manipulation of sound as light), can use sound to create shockwaves (manipulating the vibrations themselves), and can draw people in using music (manipulating people using sound). Even if she requires emotions, one could posit that she uses her emotions to manipulate them, thus fueling a "manipulation" name. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:25, 4 February 2010 (EST)

Siren's song

  1. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 00:44, 19 January 2010 (EST) -- I'd be more inclined to support "music and emotion integration" if it were "music-emotion integration", as it means essentially the same thing while being less clumsy.
    We've had abilities with an "and" in the middle. Activation and deactivation is an example. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:45, 19 January 2010 (EST)
    Well, I don't really have anything against replacing the "and" by a hyphen.--Referos 18:53, 19 January 2010 (EST)
    I wasn't saying that the "and" makes it invalid, I was just saying that I, personally, would prefer if there was a hyphen.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 19:17, 19 January 2010 (EST)
    Honestly, "activation and deactivation" is one of the clumsiest ability names we have. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 19:22, 19 January 2010 (EST)
    Not really, and it's perfectly accurate, considering what we know about it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:40, 19 January 2010 (EST)
  2. --Evil Maldini 16:08, 20 January 2010 (EST)
  3. --Cj31094 22:15, 20 January 2010 (EST)
  4. ----heroesobsession 13:04, 2 February 2010 (EST)
  5. --Hive 00:04, 5 February 2010 (EST) -- This is the only name to be referenced in an episode. It's also nice and succinct.
    And also inaccurate. It describes only one aspect of her ability. It would be like calling Matt's telepathy "reading minds", even though he can do much more than that. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:07, 5 February 2010 (EST)
    That's tricky ground, as technically the term "telepathy" is strictly mindreading. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:48, 5 February 2010 (EST)
    That's actually strictly sci-fi terms. Tele means distance (so would cover the other peoples minds bit) and pathy means feeling. Literally it's distant feelings, or the feelings of others. And in parapsychology (which is the study of paranormal events) it is defined as "communication between minds by some means other than the normal sensory channels; transference of thought". --mc_hammark 12:54, 5 February 2010 (EST)
    Telepathy is the act of transfering of thoughts between two (or more minds) ["communication between minds by some means other than sensory perception"]. One with "definative" Telepathy should able to "read & write" so to speak. The mind reading and "thought pushing". Telepathy as a name sure as heck doesn't cover the memory manipulation, emotion manipulation and by no means the precognition aspects of what Parkman can do. So that's an example of a name not covering all aspects of a person's ability. Terrakinesis is also shaky on grounds. In addition, certain depictions of Siren's display the creation of colourful waves when they play- exactly as Emma does. Samuel's comment adds more weight. Really, the only thing that prevents this from being a good name is the synesthesia aspect. You could try "Synesthetic Siren's Song"...--Evil Maldini 13:40, 5 February 2010 (EST)
    It accounts for all the effects you said. By "writing", in can implant things in the mind, a thought, an emotion, which physically speaking is no different from thoughts, which is the communication of neurons. Also by "writing", he can overwrite things, erasing memories. And the trickiest of all was actually explained in a BTE. Since telepathy is an ability which gives access to the mind, the writers said that after his experience with Usutu, Matt learned to use his telepathy to enter the same realm of consciousness that precogs enter when they see the future. It's not perfect, but it is nonetheless logical and coherent as far as scifi goes. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:54, 5 February 2010 (EST)
    Her ability is far too complicated to give a name that covers everything. There's no way to distill "seeing sound and playing music that lures people and damages things" into a two or three-word phrase. - Hive 15:49, 5 February 2010 (EST)
  6. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 00:20, 9 February 2010 (EST) The Watcher calls her a siren in Purpose, part 6.

Sonic manipulation (not Sound manipulation)

--Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:29, 19 January 2010 (EST) -- MaEI and Siren's song don't explain the blasts, and emotions are generally implied, thus SM is my choice. Changed to Siren's song (see Purpose, part 6)
Integration of different emotions would yield different effects, something which can be properly explained in the main article.vIntuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:45, 19 January 2010 (EST)
  1. --daevon 16:30, 28 January 2010 (EST)

Emotion problem

From what we've seen of Peter's dream, Emma was using her ability at the carnival to presumably "slaughter thousands". However, it turned out that she was doing it, but Doyle was. We know that Doyle can manipulate a person's movement and make them use their abilities, but he cannot sway a person's mood. Also, Emma seems to be quite terrified in the dream. She didn't seem to want to do what she was doing, which seems to imply that her ability doesn't really on emotions as much as we assumed. Thoughts?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:48, 4 February 2010 (EST)

  • Fear is an emotion, no?--Riddler 16:05, 4 February 2010 (EST)
    • It is, but wouldn't she need specific emotions to use certain aspects of her power? If that weren't true, then the ability could be used no matter how she is feeling, which also makes her emotions irrelevant.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:22, 4 February 2010 (EST)
      • Remember Doyle said to Meredith that she couldn't use her ability unless he made her, perhaps when he does, he controls the ability. So it is possible that the emotions are based on his for the dream. --mc_hammark 16:31, 4 February 2010 (EST)
      • It's also possible that she's being threatened, so she's intentionally accessing certain emotions because of her fear.--Riddler 16:35, 4 February 2010 (EST)
        • She'd have to have extreme self-control in order to accomplish that, but it is possible.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:49, 4 February 2010 (EST)
          • I think that when she plays, she's always putting something in the song. She'll put whatever she's feeling at the moment unless she focus on a specific emotion or purpose. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:37, 4 February 2010 (EST)
            • Let's watch the finale to see what she's doing. If it turns out Emma is actually killing people with her music instead of just luring them, fear would be an appropriate emotion.--Referos 14:36, 5 February 2010 (EST)
              • I think she can damage things if she have negative emotion, she's feeling sad when she cracked her wall and on Peter's dream her fingers was injured because of the strings or she was frightened by Doyle. While positive emotions can attract the people that she wanted. --Dark Master 06:10, 6 February 2010 (EST)
      • Kinda sounds like I was right about the whole emotion thing. --Action Figure 00:52, 18 February 2010 (EST)

Sound Wave Manipulation

I think Emma's ability is manipulating sound waves. She can manipulate it to become a beautiful music and destructive wave depend on her mood.

Why the move?

Why has the page been moved? The ability has not been named specifically as Siren's song and no consensus was reached. It shouldn't have been moved. --mc_hammark 15:26, 9 February 2010 (EST)

  • Consensus was reached. "Siren's song" has the most votes in a poll that's been open for around a month. Samuel has referred to her ability as this making it the most explicit option, and The Watcher called Emma a siren.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:28, 9 February 2010 (EST)
    • That does not appear to be a consensus at all, unless the rules have changed. If they haven't this should be moved back to where it was. --Stevehim 15:34, 9 February 2010 (EST)
      • 6 out of 13 isn't a consensus, that's less than 50%. Plus peter was called an empath, we didn't call his ability empathy, did we? And since all the watcher knows is that she's going to attract the thousands to the carnival, that's only one aspect. Her ability may be like STM, it has different aspects from different abilities. --mc_hammark 15:36, 9 February 2010 (EST)
        • It's six out of 12, for starters (I changed my vote). Samuel described it as a siren's song, and in the latest iStory, the Watcher explicitly calls her a siren. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:37, 9 February 2010 (EST)
      • I don't understand what we should have waited for then. Siren's song has the majority of votes, and the poll was open for a quite a while, everyone had a chance to vote. We had an "opposition consensus" beforehand to narrow down the choices, like we're supposed to. The name itself was said in a canon source and implied in a near canon source, while the rest were descriptive level 5 names. Obviously everyone is not going to agree, but how long should we have waited?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:38, 9 February 2010 (EST)
        • The watcher is not a reliable source as I pointed out above. A consensus is a general agreement, which 50% is not. --mc_hammark 15:41, 9 February 2010 (EST)
          • Siren's song was mentioned by Samuel in a canon source, every other name is descriptive, the consensus was redundant in the first place.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:42, 9 February 2010 (EST)
        • First, it was 6/13 in the poll, which is hardly a consensus to change anything (again, by old standards...I've been gone awhile). Second, 3 of those 6 votes came within the last week or so, so I don't think we can really say that it has been a month since Siren's Song was held by a majority to be the best option. Finally, here is what it says about consensus checks:
          "The consensus check will end once a consensus has been reached or if a consensus cannot be reached. If a consensus is reached, the article will then be moved or altered as required. If a consensus is not reached then nothing should be done to the article and it should be left as it is until more information becomes available. The only exception to this is a consensus check used to determine the name of an ability. If no consensus can be reached (that is, there is at least one valid opposition to all suggested names for the ability), then the ability should be named after its possessor. ...Once there is legitimate opposition to an item, it can be crossed off and excluded from the check."
          Not only does it seem to me that Siren's song should not have been in the poll since it had significant opposition, even after it was in the poll it fails the second part...there is at least one valid opposition to the change...namely by IE and mc hammark in this case (and I'll back them on that as well). As for Siren's Song being canon, that is another argument (namely the old 'description vs naming' one). --Stevehim 15:49, 9 February 2010 (EST)

I have contacted an admin about the current situation. It'd be nice if we all could wait for further clarification and not move the page back and forth, as it would be quite a bother to have to move the page, talk page, theory page, change all the redirects and character templates etc. We'll keep discussing but leave the page as it is until an admin decides.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:50, 9 February 2010 (EST)

  • No worries on that front from me...I rarely move or change anything without completing discussion first (except for little things). --Stevehim 15:58, 9 February 2010 (EST)
    • Agreed. We can wait. --mc_hammark 15:59, 9 February 2010 (EST)
    • On that note I'd like to apologize for possibly moving the page prematurely. I thought that we had reached consensus and interpreted the naming conventions differently from some others. I didn't mean to cause such argy-bargy (LOVE that word...).--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:01, 9 February 2010 (EST)
      • No worries.  :) --Stevehim 16:14, 9 February 2010 (EST)
        • I don't really see anything wrong with the move. In the second round of the consensus check, only unopposed names, that is, names that the community unanimously consider to be at least acceptable, can be chosen -- but what unopposed name to chose can be decided with a simple majority vote since all names are adequate.--Referos 16:19, 9 February 2010 (EST)
          • Strength of argument is also important in those cases. I just hope that people don't go around changing links to Siren's song like crazy, that'll be quite boring to revert. Oh, and about the Watcher, I don't follow the iStories, but did he have prior knowledge on Emma's ability, or did he draw conclusions from what he overheard from Samuel? Because if that's so he described only one aspect of her ability, not its entirety. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:06, 9 February 2010 (EST)
            • As far as we are aware he only overheard the conversation with Samuel, Emma and Doyle. The one from the show. I don't think that's a credible source because he only heard about one aspect. --mc_hammark 19:18, 9 February 2010 (EST)
              • As far as we are aware being the key part of that sentence. We can't speculate on how much he knows, he has as much credibility as any other non-scientist on the show.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 19:22, 9 February 2010 (EST)
                • The exact lines are "How do you think everyone's going to find us? You're going to bring them here!" Samuel says. ""He had a dream I played the cello!" she replies. "He said thousands of people would die!" "She's a siren," The Watcher whispers. "She'll bring them all here. Samuel will end them all!". It seems like the Watcher knew what Emma's ability was before overhearing it, he was able to piece together what her ability was from "bring them here" and "cello". I find it highly unlikely he'd put it together in such a way unless he had some sort of experience with the ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:46, 9 February 2010 (EST)
            • IE, since I potentially caused this I'll change back all the links if necessary.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 19:28, 9 February 2010 (EST)
        • Referos - I wasn't around, though I've read the consensus, and I was wondering what the basis for moving Siren's song to the second round of the consensus and not doing so with enhanced synesthesia was. Both had opposition, arguments, counter-arguments and counter-counter arguments. --Stevehim 22:25, 9 February 2010 (EST)
          • Enhanced synesthesia was in the second round. It received a single vote.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:42, 9 February 2010 (EST)
            • In that round, Referos claimed that it had been eliminated due to opposition and should not be in that round. It is the only name in that round with a strikethrough through it, so it's possible some people thought it had already been eliminated. Plus, it was the name we were using already, so without a consensus to change it, it would have remained (or been changed to 'Emma's ability). --Stevehim 23:07, 9 February 2010 (EST)
              • Ah. I wasn't involved in that, but from the looks of it mc hammark made his point legitimate, the strikethrough was just not removed. Regardless, MiamiVolts responded to the message I left on his talk page, saying that since "Siren's song" was mentioned on the show in relation to Emma's ability, only another name mentioned or derived from canonical material can be considered. The majority supports "Siren's song", so that's what the article will stay, for now at least.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 23:49, 9 February 2010 (EST)
                • Enhanced synesthesia received four oppositions in the first round; it was thus eliminated for the second round. If mc hammark or any other user wanted enhanced synesthesia to remain valid, he would need to address each single opposition that the name received in the first round, otherwise that would be disrespectful with the ones that originally opposed it.--Referos 06:23, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • On two different occasions via two different mediums of the series she has now been explicitly refered to a "a siren". The ONLY possible aspect of her entire existence that could qualify her as one of those is her ability. You can say "Well Samuel wasn't clear" and "What does the watcher know?" but the answer truely is a darn sight more than any of us in terms of the story. If ever there was a case of canon deciding a debate it should be this one, seeing as all of us are so unsure as to what her ability is.--Evil Maldini 09:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Like it was pointed out, Siren's song has opposition with viable, and hitherto unchallenged counterarguments to everything people who support it threw. I would rather have this Emma's ability before this stayed as Siren's song, and I believe I'm not the only one who feels like that. Calling this Siren's song would be the equivalent of renaming telepathy to "mind reading". It does that, but it's much more than that. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 09:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • And the main argument for it is that it's canon. If we don't follow that right now, we create double standards. I'm not saying either is right, but so long as Tracy's has to be Freezing because of canon, and Healing touch left as healing touch, then this should stay as Siren's song.--Evil Maldini 09:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • All the more reason for us to do it. Canon isn't just what is said explicitly, it's everything we see on the episodes. And getting this to a fitting name would be an argument to get the split of Tracy from freezing, rename of her ability, and rename of healing touch on the go. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:10, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • Wrong. Once again, it's not our job to speculate, but to chronicle. The show seemed clear that "siren's song" was the intended name. It doesn't matter if it "doesn't quite fit", it's canon. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 10:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Then let's call it Emma's ability. By no means it's speculation and it is accurate regardless of what the ability. As said above, there is viable opposition to the name, and if all current names have viable opposition, the ability is to be named after its holder. I get going by the book, I'm the biggest "by the book" I know, but that doesn't mean the book is right. Too much "by the book" makes people narrow-minded, and as long as we go by that, needless discussion like this will happen, hindering the wiki. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:32, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • The irony being that such rules or "the book" as you put it exist in an effort to create consistency and continuinty and yet since Tracy began to dribble all that's been happening is futile discussion about whether that's correct. All I'm saying here is, IMO, if canon is to be followed, then this needs to be Siren's song. That's just my two cents.--Evil Maldini 10:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • That's the entire reason why naming policies have to be changed. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a book, what I'm saying is that we need enough flexibility to avoid situations like these, when outdated info is taken to be accurate despite overwhelming evidence of the contrary, abilities being named after one effect of the ability rather than an all-effects encompassing name. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:07, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • How is any of this outdated? It's a twice-used explicit naming of her and her ability, in a canon source. That's what we're supposed to do. The "all-effects encompassing name" is when we have literally NO canon sources (like disintegration). We've been given a name, and the purpose of this wiki is to reflect that information. Not to say "well, they said this, but they REALLY mean this." --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • Then we should get used to it. And Healing touch. And Freezing. And remove the name change tags whilst we're at it, if this is a matter of black and white.--Evil Maldini 11:22, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Uh, the outdated info part was about Tracy and Jeremy's ability, not Emma's, I just used those as examples along with this to showcase the situations inflexible rules can create. My main problem with this is that it was moved prematurely. I know she was called a siren in the iStory, but there was no time for others to learn that, to take it in, no time at all to discuss the fact another character called her a siren. Even if this ends up as it is, even with most people who voted for this simply did that and dropped out of the discussion, this opens a precedent for it to be done again in the future. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:27, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • We can't really be sure that "Siren's song" is intended to be the name for Emma's ability unless we get a reference like "Ability: Siren's song" or "Emma has siren's song". That is, "Siren's song" appeared in canon and near-canon sources, but it wasn't given explicitly.--Referos 11:47, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • The Watcher outright said "She's a siren." And Samuel called it her "siren's song". That's pretty explicit, not to mention corroborating references from two separate people. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:25, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • They're talking about a single aspect of her ability. This is the same as people saying Matt can read minds. Sure he can, but his ability allows him to do much more than that. His ability is telepathy, which accounts for many effects, including but not limited to, mind reading. Concussive sound blasts don't look like a siren's song to me. They're referring to a particular application of her ability, not to the ability as a whole. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:28, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • I didn't read the GN (ie - Watcher's comment) but if it is what is being quoted here ('She's a Siren'), then that is not, to me, naming her all. Sylar has been called a 'Serial killer...' would we have ever (meaning before his ability got officially named) taken that to refer to his ability? Grammatically, it just doesn't make sense. Samuel's comment can also be taken to be descriptive rather than named. Didn't Peter refer to her ability in a different way, earlier on when he discovered it? We never considered calling her ability 'seeing music' or whatever. The point is that there is significant opposition to the name Siren's song, and the two comments that support it in canon/near-canon are hardly definitive enough to say 'the ability was called that explicitly' (almost everyone arguing for Siren song to remain admits that in their arguments). As such, this should be renamed to Emma's ability, imo. --Stevehim 12:39, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Telepathy (as a name) in no way explains illusions, persuasion, nightmares, dream manipulation, or precognition. We were given a name, and it's the name we need to use. Peter's descriptions were confused, and he didn't know what was going on. Samuel and the Watcher's descriptions were definitive, and they knew exactly what was going on. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • On a small note, telepathy does. Telepathy literally means movement of thoughts. Movement to, movement from. Thoughts can cause persuasion, illusions, dreams, and, distantly, precognition. --mc_hammark 12:47, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Telepathy as a concept, however, is most commonly simply mindreading, and in rare instances communication by sending thoughts. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:51, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Stevehim, that's not a fair comparison. You have to take into account that Samuel's comments were directly about her ability, whereas some random person calling Sylar a serial killer is just that- just someone calling him a serial killer. The subject matter of the comments- i.e. Samuel's being about her ability and the Sylar example being just about Sylar in general distinguish those two. Yes, it's descriptive, but that in itself carries weight over just calling it "Emma's ability".—Evil Maldini 12:49, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • But if it's descriptive then it needs to cover all aspects of it. The real opposition is the fact samuel said "like" and the fact both he and the watcher were only refering to the one aspect of it. --mc_hammark 12:55, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • But it's not descriptive. The "descriptive name" tier of abilities is when we look at something like Tom's ability and say "Well, he disintegrates things, so his power is disintegration." It's when we have literally no information but what we see. This is a name given in a canon source, the highest tier. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:59, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Sorry, I wasn't refering to the naming conventions when I said "it's descriptive"- I was on about description in general.--Evil Maldini 13:01, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • But it wasn't given explicitly; now if Samuel had said your ability is a siren's song, then yes i'd support it, but the fact he only compared it to it (hence the word "like") makes it a comparison, and not explicit. --mc_hammark 13:03, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • The Watcher said "She is a siren." That's about as explicit as it gets. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:13, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • And Peter's an empath? --mc_hammark 13:16, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • "Empath" has been used (by the carnies) to refer to anyone with an empathic ability. Peter had empathic mimicry (and to a point, one could argue that ability replication is still just a weakened EM), Lydia had empathy, and Joseph had empathic manipulation. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Exactly. The same can be said of siren. There could be another ability out there with just the ability to call people to them. A siren. The point about the watcher is he only knows about that singular aspect of the ability, which in itself, could be a separate ability altogether. --mc_hammark 13:22, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Until we see another person with a similar ability, that is an assumption, which is something we're not supposed to do in naming these abilities. The show gave us "siren's song", and we can't assume that it's just a description. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:32, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • Yeah, I'm starting to think you guys are taking these names a bit too much word for word... I think it was mentioned beforehand that it was called Enhanced Synesthesia, and y'all were defending that like it was written in stone; why not include on the page that it was also referred to as a Siren's song, but keep the ability page name "Enhanced Synesthesia?

User:Shadowulf1 13:25, 10 February 2010 (EST)

          • Evil Maldini - My 'serial killer' comment was in reference to Watcher's comment of calling her a Siren (a name that describes a person), not with regards to Samuel's comment (incidentally, it wasn't a random person that called Sylar that...most of the characters have called him that...Mohinder, Noah, Nathan, Peter, Angela, etc). As such, Watcher's comment should not be taken to naming an ability, as it did described a person. So all we have is Samuel's comment (and at best you can use Watcher's comment to bolster it...but once Samuel's comment falls, so goes Watcher's).
            As for Samuel's comment...again, it comes down to whether it was an actual naming of an ability, or if it was describing it. You can't just say that 'it's all we have, and since it's from the show it's canon and trumps all else)...we don't have a canon source for Electric Manipulation (we have a near-canon one), but I am fairly certain that I can dig up someone in the show describing Elle's power in some way...maybe like 'throwing bolts of lightning.' We don't change her ability to 'lightning throwing' simply because it was in the show, because it is clearly more descriptive than naming.
            Thus we are brought back to one question: Was Samuel's comment an actual naming of the ability, or did it describe it from his POV? There seems to be significant division on this such, I would think that would mean that the community cannot decide whether it was description or naming, which would indicate that it should probably be moved to Emma's ability. --Stevehim 14:01, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Under the current naming conventions this is name we have to keep. We don't take everything we see as evidence, only what we hear for an ability name. If this is to be challenged, it must be done at the naming conventions, but not here.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Also, I'm little disappointed with the community. If you thought that "Siren's song" shouldn't have made it to the second round of consensus, you should have said something during the few weeks the poll was open. Saying "well, it shouldn't have been there in the first place" after it gains a majority of votes isn't cool, and defeats the point of taking a consensus.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:11, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Re: The community - It can be frustrating, I understand, but people have different schedules, and cannot always get to these things in a timely fashion (eg - you'll notice that none of the admins have commented on this issue yet, except when you posted it to one of their talkpages). Personally, I long ago accepted that things that the arguments I support or put forth would not always carry through, which is why I think it is important to have these 'back-and-forth' discussions on the talk pages. That way, when some thoughts are not the prevailing ones (eg - like mine, here  ;)), there is a record of the objections and a good discussion fleshing out the points. What I mean to say is that I am fine with things like keeping this page 'Siren's song,' if that's what is ultimately decided, but like to use the discussion pages as a forum to say why I think it should be otherwise...while I would like to sway people to my way of thinking via debate (naturally), I'm also ok with just having my opinion on the matter in this tab instead. I also think that bringing things up again over time, usually when there's new evidence, but also when the community expands to get new opinions, is a good thing (eg - see the current enhanced strength talk page, or the controversy about RCR EH's being able to die or not)  :)--Stevehim 14:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Wow, wow, wow, hang on a second. I was very against "siren's song" from the very beginning, and I wasn't the only one who opposed it. Don't use the "you should have opposed it before" card, that's not going to work. I still don't understand how it managed to get to the second round when there was significant opposition to it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:15, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • Just thought of something is Samuel's comment considered 'naming the ability' and Micah's (about Niki having 'super strength,' not? I would put Micah as the more informed character if I had to choose, and there is MUCH more of a consensus to split the enhanced strength page (13 to 1 for the split) than there is here. --Stevehim 14:20, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • Like I said before, Samuel used Siren's song to describe one aspect of her ability, like other characters tell Matt to "read someone's mind" when they want him to use telepathy. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:15, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Micah's comment is one of the reasons the split is (supposedly) happening. Both were naming an ability. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • The abilities in question are vastly different, and the Emma's ability is much more complex than Niki's. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:27, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • All of the information (ie - Micah's comment, Knox's AT etc) were present before the merge, and were thoroughly discussed back then, so you can't really use that as a reason for support here until it actually occurs there, meaning it was decided that Micah's comment did not name Niki's ability (and thus Samuel's should not name Emma's, imo). As of right now, Micah's comment was deemed to be descriptive, rather than naming, or else we'd have had a 'super strength' page for well over a year...but we don't have that even today. And if Micah's comment is descriptive, I don't see how Samuel's is not. If that page gets split, then at that time that will be evidence to be used to support the Siren's song argument. Until then, the convention used there should be used here, imo. --Stevehim 15:48, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • Actually, there wasn't that much discussion when Knox's AT came out, someone simply decided to keep the page as one just because. Micah's comment was about something that was the whole of the ability, all that Niki could do was use her strength. In this case, Emma's ability has a versatility that wasn't present in Niki's, it's not the same case. A description of one aspect of the ability mustn't be used to name the entire ability, that's what people have to acknowledge. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • There was a good amount of discussion about Knox/Niki, actually. I see what you're saying with trying to encompass the whole ability, but that's been a problem many times in the past (eg - Knox's fear detection, Matt's ability to create illusions, Sylar's using TK to fly and for relative invulnerability, Freezing also including water etc). There are too many ways to apply some of these abilities for us to find all-encompassing names all the time, and I don't think we need to. If the writer's come out and state something as an ability (through a character or some other way), then it shouldn't matter if it covers all of the bases. It only matters whether or not they stated it or not. For example, if Noah had seen Emma draw people to her using her ability and explicitly stated that "her ability is Siren song," there would be no argument about what this was called. However, if he did not see her visualize music in terms of color or slice walls with it, he would not have named it based on a comprehensive knowledge of all aspects of her ability...meaning that your argument against Siren song would be the same as it is now (that it didn't address some aspects of her ability), but the matter would be settled as it would be named by a character in the show. --Stevehim 16:28, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • This isn't official because the naming conventions don't say anything about this, but from what I could understand from sysops' comments it works kinda like this with canon sources:
  • If an ability name appears in a format like "Your ability is _____", "Unique ability:_______", "You have _______", or similar, then the ability is coming from an explicit source.
  • Otherwise, the source for the ability's name is a description.

So for instance, all AT profiles are obviously explicit sources. Mohinder's comment "You are the first one with adoptive muscle memory" is an explicit source. Micah's comment "Mom, with your super strength..." is an explicit source; i.e., the ability is clearly named.

On the other hand, things like "Ando, you're like a supercharger!" is a descriptive source for supercharging, because the ability is being given a description. "Tina Ramierez can exhale chlorine gas" is a descriptive source for chlorine gas exudation. "Marcus can crumple things" is a descriptive source for crumpling. So yeah, "You can bring people to you, like a Siren's song" or "She's a siren" are descriptive sources for Siren's song.

Obviously, names from explicit sources take precedent, but it's better to use one from a descriptive source than a fan-invented term...

Regarding the move, I agree with IE that it was done prematurely. If I remember correctly, "music and emotion integration" had the lead for a few days, but the page wasn't moved instantaneously. Why do this now? Additionally, I think that a flaw with the current consensus check is adding counter-arguments in order to "unoppose" names. I felt that it kinda becomes a game of hot potato. You add an opposition, I add a counter-argument, you add a counter-counter-argument, I add a counter-counter-counter-argument, etc, whoever is the last one to post something wins. That doesn't seem like a consensus to me.--Referos 15:22, 10 February 2010 (EST)

  • Strength of argument is (or at least is supposed to be) more important than actual votes, I believe. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:27, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Level 5 is names we come up with as descriptions. If it's from a canon source, it's a level 1 no matter what, description or not. As for electric manipulation and enhanced strength, those abilities had an assignment tracker, which is an exception to the naming conventions due to its explicit nature. However, Emma's ability does not have one, so we stay with the canon name. And IE, if you opposed "Siren's song" in the second round of consensus, why didn't you remove it? I only added it to the poll because it had not been crossed out, but it still could have been removed. It's just sour grapes at this point. Consensus check will not work if we refuse name supported by the majority because "it never should have been there in the first point". Also, this is all beside the point that "siren's song" is the only name to be mentioned in a canon source. It doesn't matter whether it was a description or not, unless we have a more explicit canon or near-canon source (like an assignment tracker, or even a GN description) we must stick with this name. Like I said above, if you think this is an issue, go to the naming conventions article, there is already a debate there. Here is not the place to debate issues with the naming conventions.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:29, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • I did strike it out, more than once, but every time someone added a counterargument, even a half *ss argument, they'd uncross it. Check the page history if you want. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:36, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • I'd check, but this pages history is now ridiculously long due to this debate. I'll take your word for it. I apologize for my comment then, but you could see where I was coming from. Regardless, this debate is going in circles.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:38, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Enhanced strength had an AT for Knox, not for Niki. Just to point out, the second round of the consensus check (ie - the poll) had 6 votes for Siren's song and 5 for Music and emotion integration...that is hardly a reason to move something to Siren's song (and since there were 13 total votes, it's not even a majority; it's a plurality). As for the naming conventions, that's not what they say at all. A description from a canon source is trumped by "Names in common use in other works," and a consensus is needed to take the description in any case. If no consensus can be reached, then Holder's ability trumps description. It's not really sour grapes, as this was brought up directly after the article was moved (well, before then actually, but again right after). According to the naming conventions and consensus rules, this article should not have been renamed. Additionally, Siren's song violates several of the naming convention guidelines pertaining to descriptive names. --Stevehim 16:40, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • It's a canon name. Level 5 are descriptive names we come up with. Enhanced strength is in the middle of a split, MaEI had 4 votes.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • PJ, it's like I said about a million words ago- so long as we treat canon as priority, black and white, this debate is futile. We either get used to this, or mount a charge to change the naming conventions. Simple as. --Evil Maldini 16:48, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Right, I've been trying to get people to direct the attention to the naming conventions article as opposed to this isolated case.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:49, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Checked over 50 revisions, will check more, but here's what I found: me crossing out Siren's song, after you (PJDEP) and I discussed it at length, PJDEP uncrossing it. I remember now, I didn't cross it immediately because we were still discussing the name, but it stopped for a while, and since your argument for it account for smashing walls was the figurative of boats smashing due to the sailors being distracted by the song, I crossed it. Then a while later you came in and uncrossed it. I also remember getting loads of edit conflicts. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • PJDEP wrote: "It's a canon name." - that's one of the things being debated here. As I stated earlier, that there is a debate for splitting enhanced strength is not remotely the same as it being split...there was a larger debate back when it happened. Since it is not yet split, it is evidence that things said by characters aren't always explicit names of abilities. If the page is split, then you can use it as evidence to support Samuel's statement. MaIE has 5 votes, though it seems one came after the move...but 6-4 is not much better than 6-5. --Stevehim 16:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • The reason you gave for crossing it out was "(If sonic manipulation goes for not using all aspects, so does this)". That was after a user crossed out a majority of names for that reason. However, since sonic manipulation was uncrossed, I restored "siren's song", if I remember correctly,--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:02, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • I'm sorry, let me correct myself. Sonic manipulation was crossed out due to the above reason, but that reason does not apply to canon names. Sonic manipulation was also uncrossed later.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:04, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Like I said, I didn't cross names immediately because there was still discussion on them, so when I saw that others were being crossed out for a much simple reason, I crossed that out for the same reason. Before MaEI, I was rooting for sonic manipulation. So I guess we fall back to Samuel describing the ability or the aspect of ability issue. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:06, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • What is this? The debate for Health Care reform or a person's ability name? Has it cross anyone else's mind that some people might be "wrong" for lack of a better term, but are just not willing to see it or admit it? If that's the case, I don't see this debate ending anytime soon. Some of us are just way too stubborn to agree with a name from a list of excellent sounding and well though up names that would work. --OutbackZack 17:18, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Should we really be calling it 'Health Care Reform?' That seems more descriptive to me, and we already have an explicitly stated canon-name for it.  ;) --Stevehim 17:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • I can't believe I'm going to say this, but, technically, this page cannot be named "Siren's song" because the infamous "must cover all aspects" rule still exists. I fully agree with PJDEP that we should be discussing the naming conventions; I mean, how many examples do we need to realize it isn't working, in the sense that it only creates fruitless debate instead of swiftly solving things?--Referos 18:24, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • For the last time, the "all aspects" rule is only for lowest-tier names for which we have been given no hint of a name. This is not the case here. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 18:34, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • That's my entire point! The naming conventions haven't been fixed to remove/alter this rule and that was what? three months ago? Currently that rule applies to all names, so if go by the book, we explode!--Referos 18:45, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • Pain is the way the body tells it's in danger, because it's been harmed. Claire's body feels less pain because it heals fast, and because it knows it will heal, it no longer hurts. Shape shifting wasn't meant to work with clothes, it was a retcon. Telephones convert electricity into sound, his ability includes that conversion potential. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • My point is, these names do not account for these specific aspects of their abilities. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 19:12, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Ricard, you're missing my point entirely. I'm not really arguing whether that rule is correct or not. Read the naming conventions, and notice that the "all aspects" rule, contrary to what you said, do not refer to only level 5 names. In fact it appears in the section related to names form canon, near-canon and secondary sources and to all names, explicit or not. Again, I will stress that I'm not arguing right now whether this rule is correct or not, but if we go by the book, exactly as the naming conventions tell us to do, we run into the same problem as Jeremy's power and Tracy's power. The big problem is that the naming conventions (this rule specifically) do not reflect what the community has chosen. Again, I'm not arguing if it's correct or not, but that should be fixed ASAP, regardless of how it's fixed.--Referos 19:15, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • The admins have clarified that the "all aspects" rule does in fact only factor into Tier 5 names. Additionally, if the show gives us something canon, it honestly doesn't matter what the community has chosen. The show supersedes anything we debate over. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 19:50, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • But what happens when canon contradicts itself? --Stevehim 20:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • When that happens with dates, we usually put a link to a notes section and mention both sources, but I don't think we can do that in this case. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:39, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Yeah, probably doesn't work beyond dates. I actually should have posted this on the naming conventions page, as the point I was leading to is more apropos to there. It does somewhat relate to Ricard's comment in that we'd have to decide one way or another, and in that case the community debate would supersede canon. --Stevehim 20:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)

My thoughts

The above discussion is great. A lot of good points. Somebody called it a stalemate. I agree. I wanted to share my thoughts since admins were requested to share opinions here. But please remember, my opinion does not and should not carry any more weight than anybody else's. That said, my overarching mission on this site is to chronicle what the writers give us, even if we don't feel it's perfect. I like the name "Siren's song", but it's not a perfect name. Likewise "enhanced synesthesia". Neither completely covers every part of the ability. Since neither name was given to us explicitly, I wouldn't be opposed to a hybrid of the two names, like "synesthetic siren's song". It's has alliteration, but it's a bit of a mouthful. So if we decide to go with one of the two names that have been suggested to us, I would prefer "siren's song" simply because it was given in an episode, and "synesthesia" was not. I know the word was said in an episode, but I feel it was a description of the condition, not the ability. Heroes Interactive said that Emma has a form of synesthesia. That's great information, but I feel it should be superseded by the two mentions in the episodes. The HI content must go through the approval process with the producers, but the approval process is nowhere near as rigorous as the approval process (and scrutinizing) done by the writers for the episodes. (Additionally, I take Samuel's and The Watcher's expertise on the ability over Dr. Coolidge's.)

In short, I would be fine with either of the two names (well, three, if you count "synesthetic siren's song"), but I lean much more towards "siren's song". I will check the scripts for any other clues. The above discussion is long, so if I missed any points that need to be addressed, let me know. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:31, 10 February 2010 (EST)

  • I would also prefer "siren's song", but I wouldn't mind "synesthetic siren's song", although I feel as if that's overkill. Also Ryan, could you shed some light on the consensus issue? If we didn't have a name from any canon material, would "siren's song" still be the most appropriate name, due to it's majority in the consensus poll?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 18:34, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • "Synesthetic siren's song" works for me. Also, thank you Ryan, for the response.  :) --Stevehim 18:56, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Now I'm probably just being difficult, but it was still a plurality, not a majority.  ;) --Stevehim 19:02, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • Semantics....--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 19:55, 10 February 2010 (EST)
        • It's really not. To take an extreme example, if you had 101 votes in 100 categories, the category that got 2 votes would be a plurality, but not a majority, and you'd basically view it the same as any other category (ie - you'd need to convert 49 other people to your way of thinking to attain a majority). In this case, one category has 6, one has 5, and there are two other with 1 each. I don't know why 6/13 would carry any more weight than 5/13 when trying to form a consensus (which isn't based on majority in any case). --Stevehim 20:03, 10 February 2010 (EST)
          • I was joking.....--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:08, 10 February 2010 (EST)
            • Oh...sorry.  :) As a side note, regardless of how this ends, shouldn't 'Siren' be listed as an alias or nickname for Emma? --Stevehim 20:36, 10 February 2010 (EST)
              • Probably not, he called her a siren. He didn't call her "Siren". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:37, 10 February 2010 (EST)
                • Don't worry about it ;). I don't see an issue for listing "siren" as an alias for Emma also.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:51, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • My opinion:

-When naming these supernatural phenomenon there should be a MAIN CATEGORY (the ability's name), and all additional functions should derive from that MAIN CATEGORY (certain leeway is tolerable). So 'Telepathy' is sufficient because 'pushing an idea' falls under the reasonable SUBCATEGORY of what telepathy could logistically allow. However, 'freezing' is not sufficient because the subcategory of 'turn your body into water' doesn't fall under the realm of what freezing allows. If anything, the MAIN CATEGORY should involve controlling water, allowing freezing to be a reasonable subset. (Yes, I basically just said "Eff Canon! Powers evolve; and so must their names"[no pun intended])
-When I first saw the name 'Siren's Song' I was COMPLETELY confused (there's no indication that it is a power; just a song that belongs to a character named Siren). I thought Siren was some random character introduced in an iStory. When I clicked it, I realized it was about Emma. It may be a clever name that Samuel coined but it is just a subset of 'Emma's Ability'. I could entertain an argument over "Emma's Song" [HOWEVER, this does not explain seeing sound waves/colors of a dropped mug of tea]. I really hate to call things "X's Ability", but it just has to apply in this instance. I mean, it involves: synesthesia, striking, and seduction. I don't know anything that would make a proper MAIN CATEGORY. --Halfxwitted 02:58, 11 February 2010 (EST)

  • Going by Samuel's comments, I'm now thinking the writers meant that Emma's synesthesia is simply a medical condition she developed, similar to how Niki and Nathan had MPD for a bit. I wouldn't consider it part of her power. As to the character issue, 'Siren's song' isn't just a name Samuel coined, it's referencing a Greek myth (see my thread below). I think, though, that the name is confusing in how it is spelled. I think the spelling should be plural (Sirens' song), so everyone can know it refers to the myth. I'm waiting to get script confirmation before changing it to that, though. As for not covering the striking part of her ability, I agree that it doesn't... I don't think it's a perfect name... but since it's a coined name, it doesn't have to be.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:55, 11 February 2010 (EST)
    • But seeing sound as color is a part of her ability. Peter was able to replicate it. If this was simply a condition, Peter wouldn't be able to see sound. And if you think about it, it has to be part of her ability. She's seeing sound, but with regular synesthesia, the senses cross together, you see sound when you hear sound. Emma is deaf, she can't hear, so hearing can't overlap with sight. Unless they reveal that she has some degree of hearing, regular synesthesia wouldn't account for what happens to her. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:51, 11 February 2010 (EST)
      • Right, the medical condition came with the ability when Peter replicated it. Peter also got 'the Hunger' when he took Intuitive Aptitude from Sylar... I don't consider 'the Hunger' as part of the ability, but rather a condition the ability causes--a side effect, like Abe's blindness or Knox's sense of fear. I'm also not sure if Peter only copies the ability, but that's a different issue... As to the condition itself, I'm thinking Emma has all the parts for hearing, it's just that her brain wasn't getting the signal until her ability kicked in, and then the signal went to the wrong part of her brain, causing the synesthesia. Just saying that's how I like to think of it.--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:40, 11 February 2010 (EST)

Can I be honest

I think that given the recent development of abilities in the last two volumes, a lot of the abilities don't seem to be the same as we initially thought. For example, it is perfectly plausible that Tracy always had a different ability with those two aspects, but only showed one first (much like Hiro first showed time manipulation before teleporting). If it were up to me, I'd probably say for all the abilities, rename them to X's ability and over the next few months we can decide, one ability at a time, whether that person has the same ability as another person, or whether it is different. Does anyone see where I'm coming from? --mc_hammark 20:44, 10 February 2010 (EST)

  • Or, if you really think it's necessary, we could leave the ability names as they are but start a debate anyway. I don't really see a need for it though.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:50, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  • I thought about suggesting that, but most of them could just be done right away, and then what's the point of changing them to begin with except to make excess work. What I would suggest would be going through all of the abilities, making a list of the ones that are controversial in some way or require debate, and then taking it from there, if that's the path you want to go down. However, almost anything that would be on the list has already been exhaustively debated, often several times, so I don't really think we're going to get anywhere new...we're just going to have versions of what's going on here on 10 other pages as well. --Stevehim 20:52, 10 February 2010 (EST)
    • Well think about it, we're having debates over whether names should be called X or Y, when what we should really be asking is, do they really have the exact same ability? The prime example is Tracy. --mc_hammark 20:54, 10 February 2010 (EST)
      • It's really an issue of needing more specific naming conventions, imo (not that the ones we have aren't good...they provide a great framework, but we need to adapt to the evolution of the show). I posted something about Tracy there, if you want to check it out. --Stevehim 20:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)

Myth and Commonality

I was asked to leave my comments as well. I think Ryan summed the situation up nicely a couple threads above, and I agree with keeping this as 'Siren's song'. I'll add, though, that my personal opinion is that the writer's are trying to convey an analogy for Emma to the Greek myth of the Sirens (legend says there were at least two), who lured sailors to their island using their enchanting music and voices. So even though she lures with a musical instrument instead of singing, I think that's why "siren's song" could be thought of as a common name for her ability. BTW, thanks, Ryan, for checking the scripts for us. Can you check in the script whether it is called out as "Sirens' song" (possessive plural)? My opinion on which spelling to use yields to the script, though I think the plural spelling makes more sense and is more easily understandable.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:25, 11 February 2010 (EST)

  • That was Samuel's line from Upon This Rock, right? Unfortunately, I only have scripts for Close to You onwards. I don't have the script for Upon This Rock.

    Regarding the name. I've actually always seen the term written "siren song". In other words, the word "siren" isn't used as a noun (either in the singular or the plural), but it's used as an adjective, modifying the word "song". This usage would be similar to "mountain bike", "paper towel", or "pickle jar", where the first noun is used as an adjective to modify the second noun. So for our purposes, we wouldn't have to worry about making the "siren" plural or singular. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:27, 11 February 2010 (EST)

    • I'm pretty sure Samuel's quote was in Upon This Rock. Using 'siren song' would be a good way to sidestep the issue; I'm not opposed to calling it that, either.--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:06, 11 February 2010 (EST)
      • It was Upon This Rock, yes. And actually, "siren song" does make more sense than "siren's song". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:07, 11 February 2010 (EST)
        • Well, if nobody's opposed, let's go ahead and make that move. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:53, 11 February 2010 (EST)
          • I don't oppose, but why is it more accurate to have it as "siren song" as opposed to "siren's song"? Samuel definitely used the plural tense.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:57, 11 February 2010 (EST)
  • It's not more or less accurate...but if we use the word "siren" as an adjective, it solves the problem of whether or not we use the plural or singular. How do we know that Samuel used the plural? "Siren song", "siren's song" and "sirens' song" all sound the same to me. Plus, I've most often seen it written "siren song" in books... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:55, 11 February 2010 (EST)
    • He definitely said either "Siren's" or "sirens'". But I see your point. If it's necessary, I'm okay with it.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:31, 11 February 2010 (EST)
      • Siren song sounds better to me, I don't think I've seen it any other way... I'm all for the move. --Skullman1392 23:59, 11 February 2010 (EST)
        • I'm certainly not against the move, but didn't we have this same problem with puppet master vs puppet mastery? --Stevehim 00:05, 12 February 2010 (EST)
          • Puppet master was because of an AT that explicitly (mis)spelled it out for us. Not the case here. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 00:07, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  • How is something said in an episode not as explicit as seeing a word on paper? --Stevehim 00:14, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • 1) Since it was said out loud we can't be sure he actually said "Sirens song" it could have been "Siren song" they both sound extremely similar. 2) Even if he did mean for the word "Siren" to have a "s" on the end of it, we don't know if is would be "Sirens' " "Siren's" or even "Sirens". By calling it "Siren song" we speculate the least and have the best name. --Skullman1392 00:19, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • I don't know if we have a way to check (I assume closed captions don't work...does anyone have access to scripts) the actual wording, but I would say that if there is an 's' at the end, then of the proposed forms (siren's, sirens', sirens, siren), siren is the most speculative as you would be knowingly changing the word (removing a letter). Personally, I would lean toward Siren's song because the possessive makes more sense than the plural in that Emma is one person. --Stevehim 00:25, 12 February 2010 (EST)
        • Well said, Skullman. Also, the big difference between this ability and Doyle's is the explicitness of the name. We have a little "wiggle room" because Samuel was making a bit of a comparison, rather than saying "Your ability is called such and such."

          Stevehim, I don't have the script for Upon This Rock, unfortunately. And closed captioning is a good aid, but is not always reliable. (They still mistakenly call Linderman "Bob" in Season One.) There's nothing more speculative about "siren song" than "sirens' song" or any of the other forms given. We don't know if we're adding a letter or removing a letter since all the forms you listed sound exactly alike. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:10, 12 February 2010 (EST)

          • That's the fine line I'm trying to nail down so there won't be problems in the future (or at least so I won't annoy everyone with pages of debate) about naming things. When does 'explicit naming' carry with it 'wiggle room,' and how do we decide when or how much we have (meaning, how do we determine that Samuel was 'making a comparison' as opposed to 'describing the ability,' which seems to be one of the main issues debated above)? Like I said, I am not opposed to renaming this Siren song...I'm just trying to use this (and other) opportunities to clarify our naming conventions a bit. Also, if we do change this, it also needs to be changed on the abilities's still listed as enhanced synesthesia there (I'd go change it now, but I figure it's best to wait until we decide if we're keeping the 's' or not first). --Stevehim 11:08, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  • I believe the use of the word "like" gives sufficient wiggle room to make it "siren song" (considering "siren song" is an actual term). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:15, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • In an exhaustively rambling nutshell, I more meant that saying something has 'wiggle room' because it was a comparison seems to make it less explicit in the sense that it brings up the question of 'what is explicit naming' vs 'explicitly named comparison' vs 'description of ability.' I do agree that since we don't have any way to tell if there is an 's' there (unless anyone here is a phoneticist, or Dale Smither), then it is not explicit in terms of 's' vs 'not s' and we can do what we decide. As such, if the 'wiggle room' was only in reference to the 's' vs 'not s,' then yes, there is no issue. But once we say Samuel's comment is a comparison, that seems to me to indicate it is at least not as explicit as other explicitly named abilities, and I was just trying to find the line so we could refine things and avoid this sort of debate in the future (though I confess, I do love these long debates and think it's one of the things that makes this wiki great). --Stevehim 11:25, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • Explicitly named abilities would include anything from the Assignment Tracker profiles. Nathan's files and Edgar's list also explicitly name abilities. So do the Genesis files. When Mohinder told Monica, "You're the first we've met with adoptive muscle memory," and Monica replied, "So that's what it's called," that was explicit. However, similes, metaphors, and comparisons are not explicit. They serve as excellent touchstones and have helped name abilities very often, but they would be overruled if we ever had a more explicit name for an ability--like, if the name of the ability was listed somewhere in a form, or as a title, or somebody used the ability's name. "Siren song" is a good example of a name used from Samuel's comparison, when he says that Emma's ability is "like a siren song." He never names her ability, but he gives us a comparison that we can turn into a name.

        To make the point a little differently, we could take Samuel's quote and make the ability name "song of the siren" if we wanted. However, the minute we are given something explicit (like an Assignment Tracker), we would use whatever is listed there. If Emma's AT listed her ability as "siren music" that's what we would use, regardless of what Samuel said. Hope that makes sense about the "wiggle room"... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:26, 12 February 2010 (EST)

        • It does, and thank you for the clarification. However, the main argument on this page was that it was an explicit naming of an ability. If it really was more of a description of an ability (and I still don't think it was...I think it was a description of an aspect of an ability, as per my grammar argument below), does that still trump near-canon material (meaning we can take canon ability descriptions from characters over names we read in the iStories and GNs (and GN intros)? --Stevehim 14:14, 12 February 2010 (EST)
          • "Siren song" (or "sirens' song" or any other way it can be spelled) is neither a description of the ability or an explicit naming of the ability. It's a metaphoric comparison of Emma's ability to an actual Greek myth. For our purposes, it describes the ability well...until we are given an explicit name for the ability. To answer your question, though, a description given in a canon source does not trump an explicit name given in a near-canon source. For instance, in chapter 2 of Operation Splinter, Tim Pope explicitly names Red Eye's ability as "primal rage". Now, if Red Eye were ever to appear on the show and somebody were to describe his ability (like "Did you see that guy? He was suppressing everybody's subconscious!" or "I was so scared when he cast feelings of anger upon me!"), we wouldn't use a descriptive term (like "subconscious suppression" or "anger casting") because we've already been given an explicit name for the ability, regardless of the in-world source from which it came. (GN intros aren't part of the GN, by the way--they're not considered a canon or near-canon source.) Hope that all makes sense...In short, explicitness trumps all. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:04, 12 February 2010 (EST)
            • It certainly clears up that part of the general naming conventions (ty once again), but it also certainly makes me more curious why, if siren's song is not an explicit name, it takes the place (that is, was sufficient enough for a page move despite opposition) of enhanced synesthesia. I'm having a hard time reconciling that 'siren song' is a 'form of synesthesia,' so it seems to contradict that source. I know it (siren song) outranks the source (canon vs near-canon), but the fact that A. it is less explicit (to me, especially since they state her ability is a form of synesthesia...the phrase ability seems VERY relevant here), B. it does not directly name the ability, C. it, grammatically speaking, refers to an aspect of the ability only, and D. it is not from a knowledgeable character makes me very uncomfortable with this.

              Most importantly, was a 'metaphoric comparison of Emma's ability to an actual Greek myth' enough to move a previously named page, despite heavy opposition to the move? I do not think we should be in the habit of moving pages and then arguing backwards to support said move. --Stevehim 15:49, 12 February 2010 (EST)

              • I didn't move this page. However "a form of such and such" is not the name of an ability. Also, Heroes Interactive is a secondary source, not a near-canon source. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:01, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                • I didn't mean that 'a form of synesthesia' was a name of an ability, but it is a description that states her ability is a form of synesthesia, which siren song is probably not. That's immaterial though...the main point: was should the page have been moved based on the voting that went on, or based solely on that quote? It seems so, which I have no objection to if those are the rules we have...I'm just trying to get as much info so we don't have to go through this every time a new power without an explicit name arrives.  :) --Stevehim 12:15, 13 February 2010 (EST)
                  • Good luck with that--it seems like every time a new unnamed power arrives, our wiki erupts in an avalanche of discussion! :) The reason given for the move was the vote, but that should not have been the reason. (The reason states that consensus was taken, but there obviously wasn't consensus, so I wouldn't put too much stock in the reason given at the time.) To be honest, I saw the move, but I didn't see the reason for the move. What's important is not the reason the move was made, but the reason the move stuck--and should stick. The reason an administrator or anybody else didn't move the page back was because of Samuel's quote (coupled with The Watcher's quote). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:20, 14 February 2010 (EST)
                    • To be fair, I did also mention that the name was said in a canon and near-canon source. It was the Watcher's additional comment that motivated me to change.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 02:27, 14 February 2010 (EST)
                • I'm the one who moved it, because a) "Siren's song" had a majority (or plurality if you must, Stevehim ;)) and b) it is the only name, description or not, mentioned in a canon source. The point is, there is no other canon material that can be used to refute the name "siren's song". If something more explicit came along, even if it were in a GN, we would use it, but that is not the case.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 23:13, 12 February 2010 (EST)
                  • I know...I'm just trying to figure out what the criteria is for moving pages. If it's once we have something from a canon source (when we really have nothing or not much else from any other source), even if that something is not a name. I know that the voting, as it stood, would not be enough to move a page normally (though now that it's done I don't care all that much, despite pages of protestation)...was just trying to find out what is exactly. --Stevehim 12:15, 13 February 2010 (EST)
  • The exact quote is: "Your emotions can become one with the music... you can bring people to you... like a Siren's song." It's Siren's not Siren, I think! Plus the language of the sentence pretty much states it should be 'Siren's'.--Evil Maldini 11:31, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • If that's the exact quote then I renew my objection (futilely, I accept...just figured I'd voice my opinion now that I see the full quote) to any sirens being present in the ability name at all. 'Like' is not the same as 'as,' and in fact implies that it is 'not' the ability name. The first part of that quote seems to be a description of her ability (emotions-music synergy)...the second part a description of an aspect of her ability (luring people in), and the third part is Samuel (who is about as low on the informed character totem pole as you can go, albeit tied with more than half the Heroes characters) trying to make an analogy as to what this aspect is like ('Siren(s) song' connecting with his description of her overall ability, as opposed to the 'luring aspect' of it, is at best, grammatically awkward). 'Like' (almost always) implies similarity, which implies that it is not exactly the same.

      That said, that is all based on the current naming rules and strictness we must adhere to to avoid the slippery slopes of speculation. In reality, it was probably the writers poetically giving us a name (pun intended) rather than just state 'Person X has ability Y,' which if done over and over makes for poor writing, but our current rules don't allow for us to make calls like that, afaik. --Stevehim 11:50, 12 February 2010 (EST)

      • Even if it wasn't explicit enough, The Watcher confirmed it by saying "She's a siren." Meanwhile, there are no other more explicitly-named possibilities for it. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:53, 12 February 2010 (EST)
        • Siren is a description of a person, not an ability. As for the meanwhile, that's a 'naming conventions' discussion we're probably better off letting lie, or we'll have to archive this page again by the end of the day. ;) --Stevehim 12:07, 12 February 2010 (EST)
          • Ah no, Stevehim, I used that direct quote as we were torn between whether it was Siren song or Siren's song. Later in the same ep, Samuel says to Emma "If you ever want to help more of us there's a place I want you to visit... we could use a doctor, and a Siren." He also, explictily calls her a Siren.--Evil Maldini 12:37, 12 February 2010 (EST)
            • I'm certainly not disputing that...what I am saying is that Siren plainly refers to a person, not a power, and while it can be used to supplement the 'Siren song' quote, on it's own it is no different from calling Matt a 'mind-reader' or Claude a 'ghost' doesn't, by itself, give us a name for her power. If we didn't have the 'Siren's song' comment, we would certainly not call (or at least certainly not say we had to call) her ability 'Siren's song. So, for me, the only quote that really matters is the Siren's song one you provided, especially since the main argument is that siren's song is an explicit naming (and, as such, does not require any supplementary information...once you try to use supplementary information, it is to address the argument that it is not an explicit naming after all).
            • It has been argued that this is an explicit naming of an ability, and that is why we have to accept it (otherwise, this ability would still be enhanced synesthesia, as it would have never been moved). What I am saying is that since it uses the term 'like' it is not the same thing (according to the strictness of our current naming conventions) as saying 'this is the name of the ability.

              Moreover, the sentence can easily be read so that Siren's song was referring to an aspect of the ability (luring people) rather than the description of the overall ability (emotions becoming one with the music)...not only can it be read that way; it more grammatically correct to do so (eg - If I say..."My Porsche is a great can hit speeds of 100 mph in less than 6 a cheetah," it is more appropriate to assume that cheetah is referring to the ability of the car to reach high speeds fast, as opposed to referring to the overall car itself. Not a perfect example I know, but it was off the top of my head (actually was just word substitution for our quote).

              Let me reiterate that I understand this issue has been decided, so I am not trying to 'beat a dead horse...' I am just clarifying my position based on the first time I have seen (other than when I saw the episode) the actual full quote. In other words, I don't expect this to change anything.  :| --Stevehim 14:06, 12 February 2010 (EST)


On a slightly related note, I think there's an even better analogy in myth I think the writers can make--and that's to Orpheus.

I got these tidbits from Wikipedia:
In Argonautica, which tells the adventures of Jason and the Argonauts, Jason recruits Orpheus to assist him when they passed the island of the Sirens. When Orpheus heard the Sirens' voices, he drew out his lyre and played his music more beautifully than they, drowning out their voices, and saving the ship. Poets like Simonides of Ceos said that, with his music and singing, he could charm birds, fish and wild beasts, coax the trees and rocks into dance, and even divert the course of rivers. He was one of the handful of Greek heroes to visit the Underworld and return; even in Hades his song and lyre did not lose their power.
I like the analogy to Orpheus, since according to legend, like Emma, he played an instrument, could charm creatures/people with his music, and could cause his music to move things (i.e. a river). Sadly, I don't think the myth of Orpheus is commonly known like that as that of the Sirens. So if the writers had Emma reply that, no, her gift was more like Orpheus's tune, I don't think much of the audience would know what she was talking about. Since 'Siren's song' is the only canon analogy, I don't think we should rename the ability to 'Orpheus's tune', just wanted to share some insight. :)--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:25, 11 February 2010 (EST)
  • I like that. All we need now is a situation where Samuel is holding Hiro captive, but Emma plays a tragic sad song which warms his heart and he says he'll release Hiro if she can walk him out of the carnival without looking back at him until they are out. Only she looks back once SHE is out, causing him to teleport all the way back to Samuel. :)--Evil Maldini 06:12, 11 February 2010 (EST)
    • Hahaha nice! If they did that, I'd think we'd have to rename it :P --Skullman1392 23:56, 11 February 2010 (EST)