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Talk:Portal:Evs Dropper-Related Graphic Novel Characters
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Undo the merge
Since the summer is just beginning and there are already 27 characters listed and most likely many more to come, I think it's better to revert this merge and keep the portals/navbars separate as they were before. I don't see this merge as helping anything. My opinion is that a related-articles page for Evsdropr is probably a good idea, but merging the portals and navbars is a bad one.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:04, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
- See Talk:Portal:Graphic Novel Characters for previous discussion on similar merges/splits related to the graphic novel characters portal.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:25, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
- I actually think it's a very good idea. Peter Steigerwald created ten new characters for the summer. I count:
- We could get into a discussion of whether The German and some of the others were part of the ten created by Peter, but that's really neither here nor there. The point is that most or all of the new major characters have already been introduced. There are lots of incidental characters who pop up here and there (I'm looking at you, Jamie Wu and escape driver!), and there may be a few more. I don't think that 27 characters--or even 37--is too many, especially since it's not likely that this portal will grow much after the summer. What will grow, however, is Portal:Graphic Novel Characters, which is already getting unruly. Eliminating some of those by combining them into one portal (namely this one) is a good idea, in my opinion. It also fits with the overall arc of the summer set of stories: evsdropr is the one thread that really ties most or all of the novels together since April 14. I wish the idea had been discussed first, but I think that grouping the summer characters under an evs-centric portal is a good idea. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:46, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
- If that's the case, then this should be converted to a master portal with the pre-merged portals as sub-portals underneath it. There's lots of incidental characters that come up so I will really be surprised if 37 is where we end up at the end of the summer; summer just began June 20th and we have at least another 11 graphic novel before the Fall premiere. I can't see keeping all the evsdropr characters to the same portal. It'll just be too big. That's what related-article pages are for, so I'm changing the tag suggestion to a split instead of a delete but keeping it as-is doesn't look good, imho.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:10, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- Why? It seems silly to have a bunch of subportals when our designation is already pretty arbitrary. We're just trying to find the best grouping for a bunch of characters, and Evs seems like a good choice. I don't see any point in further breaking down the portals by characters. I don't think of Thompson, for instance, as being a character who was part of a Donna-related novel--I think of him as having been part of the summer arc that has to do with evsdropr. But even if we were to split this portal, or to create subportals within it, I'd much rather wait until it is actually "too" full than try to guess how many more incidental characters there will be. I don't think a split or subportals are good ideas at the moment. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- There are plenty of other arbitrary groupings in the GN characters portal... And I realize you don't agree, but I already think this portal is too large. Imho, it's not how many are on a page that's important, it's that this is more than one page and the rest aren't. It just doesn't seem right to me to have one large evsdropr-related folder and the rest trimmed.--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:43, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- Why? It seems silly to have a bunch of subportals when our designation is already pretty arbitrary. We're just trying to find the best grouping for a bunch of characters, and Evs seems like a good choice. I don't see any point in further breaking down the portals by characters. I don't think of Thompson, for instance, as being a character who was part of a Donna-related novel--I think of him as having been part of the summer arc that has to do with evsdropr. But even if we were to split this portal, or to create subportals within it, I'd much rather wait until it is actually "too" full than try to guess how many more incidental characters there will be. I don't think a split or subportals are good ideas at the moment. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- I am going to agree with Ryan here. I would much rather have this larger portal than the three small ones. In my opinion, it makes locating these people easier (By avoiding things like when the portals overlap) and it keeps the Portal:Graphic Novel Characters smaller. This will eventually stop growing, but the Portal will probably never see an end to its expansion. I also agree with Ryan that the subcategories are unnecessary, but I wouldn't care much if they were created. -- Lulu (talk) 14:58, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- I still believe portals like this one should be single-page for easy browsing. Large groups for locating people, items and events are better done with related-article pages. I don't see any reason not to make a related-article page for evsdropr, so I've begun one in my userspace so you can see what it would be like. Most of the content is there, though the formatting needs a little work and some more sorting should be done.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:59, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- The Portal:evsdropr-Related Graphic Novel Characters is the only way to go, as I see it. To split into "Donna Dunlap related GN character", "Penny Logan" ditto etc. isn't merely difficult to do, since most of this characters appears in each other's novels - when read as one story, its obvious that the GNs starting with Donna's Big Date, Part 1 really has evsdropr as the central character (albeit he's unseen). Pierre 17:16, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- I still believe portals like this one should be single-page for easy browsing. Large groups for locating people, items and events are better done with related-article pages. I don't see any reason not to make a related-article page for evsdropr, so I've begun one in my userspace so you can see what it would be like. Most of the content is there, though the formatting needs a little work and some more sorting should be done.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:59, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- If that's the case, then this should be converted to a master portal with the pre-merged portals as sub-portals underneath it. There's lots of incidental characters that come up so I will really be surprised if 37 is where we end up at the end of the summer; summer just began June 20th and we have at least another 11 graphic novel before the Fall premiere. I can't see keeping all the evsdropr characters to the same portal. It'll just be too big. That's what related-article pages are for, so I'm changing the tag suggestion to a split instead of a delete but keeping it as-is doesn't look good, imho.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:10, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- I'd rather see this remain one portal, too. The problem isn't necessarily that the divisions would be arbitrary, but that that arbitrariness will make it hard to figure out who goes where, and make it hard to find related characters who are split between various portals or subportals. And if we repeated characters from (sub)portal to (sub)portal, then it would seem arbitrary and confusing who gets which navbar. The only real way to deal with all of the overlaps and interrelations is to keep them all on one portal. If this really needs to be split (and I don't think it does ... at worst, it's slightly over a page, and on my screen, it's all one page still), then I'd say we're better off just doing a two-page alphabetical split (which wouldn't be nearly as confusing and overwhelming as our old "everybody in one alphabetical graphic novel portal").--Hardvice (talk) 18:30, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- Will make it hard? We seem to have been managing alright with this as a split portal for 10 issues of the graphic novels. It's rather straightforward to make sure they aren't repeated as each character gets only one navbar. As for finding related characters, that's what related articles pages should be for.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- I have not been managing alright with the split up portals. I always forget which characters are in which portal. It's hard to remember who we are calling a Donna-related character and who we are calling a Sabine-related character, and why we're not calling anybody a Thompson-related character, etc. It's so much easier and less confusing (especially for the more casual reader) to simply locate the Evs-related portal and choose the character from there...and my computer is showing only one page--even my older computer is showing just over one page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- Exactly. The "So-and-So GN Related Characters" page works great when you have main characters from the show who have relatively minor characters associated with them and only them. It doesn't work particularly well with a whole bunch of characters interwoven from a bunch of different novels with a bunch of different lead characters, many of whom are also supporting characters in another's novel. The one thing they all have in common is the Evsdropr thread. I'd rather have a big portal than have people keep wondering why So-and-So isn't on Such-and-Such portal and whatnot. I think related articles pages might be a great answer for some of the bigger characters, but it doesn't solve the problem of people looking in the wrong portal for someone we have somewhat arbitrarily decided belongs elsewhere. The portals are here to help people find articles they're looking for, not to impose an artificial and strained taxonomy just so we can make sure nobody ever has to scroll.--Hardvice (talk) 00:53, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
- That's exactly the fundamental difference of opinion we have. My opinion is that the portals are for browsing, not for searching or easily finding characters or other articles. We have at least three other "better" tools people can use for finding things directly: the search box, categories and related articles pages. Assuming no one else shares my opinion, I'll remove the rename tag next week.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:39, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
- I agree with you on other issues, MV, but on this, I don't share your opinion. One portal with a central character makes much more sense to me than numerous portals with characters somewhat arbitrarily assigned to each other. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
- I can't speak for how everyone uses them, but I can say that when the portals were implemented, they were meant to be a sort of visual search. If, for example, you wanted the article on Linderman's hotel manager but didn't know her name, you could go to minor characters and find Miss Sakamoto. If you wanted to read the article on the gun used by company agents but weren't sure how the article was named, you could go to weapons and find the Company's guns. To me, the ability to find people where you expect them to be, particularly with minor characters whose names are often mere descriptions, is paramount. You can type stuff in the search box all day and not realize that the girl from the burning building is Sheila, but you can find her easily in the portal. Yes, we have other ways to search, but they all rely on the user knowing what to search for. Only the portals provide an easy visual search. (Related articles pages don't because they aren't exhaustive.)--Hardvice (talk) 21:58, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
- I've removed the rename tag as I said I would; the consensus is clearly in favor of keeping this as it now is. Just to clarify my opinion: When you go from portal to portal, not knowing how the article is named, I consider that browsing. In that way, I look at portals as like the store windows of a shop. You should be able to see some of the store items inside, but not necessarily the whole store unless the store is small enough. I think this page is large enough be split, if not into subportals then by alphabetically as expressed below. I think of the split as making the portal into a kind of like a rotating display.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
- That's exactly the fundamental difference of opinion we have. My opinion is that the portals are for browsing, not for searching or easily finding characters or other articles. We have at least three other "better" tools people can use for finding things directly: the search box, categories and related articles pages. Assuming no one else shares my opinion, I'll remove the rename tag next week.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:39, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
- Exactly. The "So-and-So GN Related Characters" page works great when you have main characters from the show who have relatively minor characters associated with them and only them. It doesn't work particularly well with a whole bunch of characters interwoven from a bunch of different novels with a bunch of different lead characters, many of whom are also supporting characters in another's novel. The one thing they all have in common is the Evsdropr thread. I'd rather have a big portal than have people keep wondering why So-and-So isn't on Such-and-Such portal and whatnot. I think related articles pages might be a great answer for some of the bigger characters, but it doesn't solve the problem of people looking in the wrong portal for someone we have somewhat arbitrarily decided belongs elsewhere. The portals are here to help people find articles they're looking for, not to impose an artificial and strained taxonomy just so we can make sure nobody ever has to scroll.--Hardvice (talk) 00:53, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
- I have not been managing alright with the split up portals. I always forget which characters are in which portal. It's hard to remember who we are calling a Donna-related character and who we are calling a Sabine-related character, and why we're not calling anybody a Thompson-related character, etc. It's so much easier and less confusing (especially for the more casual reader) to simply locate the Evs-related portal and choose the character from there...and my computer is showing only one page--even my older computer is showing just over one page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- Will make it hard? We seem to have been managing alright with this as a split portal for 10 issues of the graphic novels. It's rather straightforward to make sure they aren't repeated as each character gets only one navbar. As for finding related characters, that's what related articles pages should be for.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
Another alternative
If we don't care about size, we could switch to a different format for grouping graphic novel characters. NBC.com has been detailing the evolutions history by season in the official walkthrough (up to Maya y Alejandro for Season One, and the rest thus far in Season Two). We could group the characters and novels the same way, and then the distinction would not be "arbitrary" since NBC.com is doing the same. I'm not a big fan of the idea since the size would be much larger, but I would prefer something more equal than what we now have due to this merge.--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:43, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- Size wouldn't larger if we do the "15 characters with alphabeticalness" thing like with the episodes. Maybe have a different section for characters who are also in the television show as well. Limitless. (did anybody understand what I meant?) --DocM 17:30, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- I think you meant to split it up alphabetically in separate pages as with the episodic characters. I suggested that before but splitting it that way was deemed an "arbitrary" split as well.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:21, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
- Seems like we could use it now. I'd prefer it. --DocM 11:13, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
- I think you meant to split it up alphabetically in separate pages as with the episodic characters. I suggested that before but splitting it that way was deemed an "arbitrary" split as well.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:21, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
"Splitting the portal" revisited
I just taught that, even though I still favor not splitting this portal, I should give an example how to break it down to sub-portals. It's been quite clear that the evsdropr GNs (and the characters) could be sorted by four main Company agent partnerships; Donna & Thompson (the central partnership in Donna's Big Date, Career Choices & Trust Issues), Bianca & Devin (Berlin central partnership), Sabine & Julien (Root and Branch central partnership), and Penny and Connie (Faces central partnership). Consequently, we would end up with these four sub-portals:
- Donna Dunlap & Thompson, Jr., Felicia, Leonard Cushing, and Jamie Wu
- Penny & Connie Logan, Teleporter, Teleporter's girlfriend, Manhattan target, and Thompson's colleague
- Sabine Hazel & Julien Dumont, Escape driver, Level 5 agent, Antarctica clone, Australia clone, Congo clone, Decoy clone, Escape clone, and Hartsdale clone
- Bianca Karina & Devin Patterson, Gael Cruz, The German, and The German's informant
There are problems with this though. Gael and Devin both appeared in other novels prior to Berlin. In addition Gael played a major role in several GNs, and is by no means tied to Bianca, albeit him being engaged to her. Finally, for obvious reasons, evsdropr him(/her-)self can't go into just one of these four possible subportals. This has me thinking that keeping them in one portal only is better, but I'm not as sure as I once was. Pierre 16:54, 22 July 2008 (EDT)