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{{power names|2|eos=Named explicitly in [[Eric Doyle]]'s [[Assignment Tracker 2.0]]}}
{{power names|1|eos=This ability is explicitly named in [[Edgar's list]] and in [[Eric Doyle]]'s [[Assignment Tracker 2.0]]}}
{| border="2" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="4" class="wikitable"
==Name==
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I think we should call it physical manipulation because that is exactly what it is.
! Archives
:No. <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 22:06, 16 November 2008 (EST)
! Archived Topics
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| align=center | [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1|Nov-Dec 2008]] || <small>{{ArchiveLinks|Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1}}</small>
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| align=center | [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2|Dec 2008-Apr 2009]] || <small>{{ArchiveLinks|Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2}}</small>
|}
==Nowhere Man, Part 4==


In Nowhere Man Part 4, Doyle closed a door with his ability, but there was no human there for him to make do it. Should we add this to the limits section? [[User:Teh Krush|Teh Krush]] 20:28, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
User:Shadowulf1 13:33, 24 October 2008 (EDT) I think it should be called '''Puppetry''', '''Nervous System Manipulation''', '''Neurological Manipulation''', '''Body Domination''' or '''Motor Control'''. Besides, '''Puppet Master''' would best suit the person possessing this ability, not the ability itself...
* Yes. Definitely. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:32, 12 May 2009 (EDT)


==Telekinesis==
I vote for '''puppetry''' or some derivation of puppetry. They all but screamed it at us in the last scene. --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] 00:48, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*True, but just puppetry might not be specific enough.--[[User:Aburu|Aburu]] 00:51, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
Perhaps '''body manipulation''' or '''movement control'''--[[User:Watchmaker|Watchmaker]] 01:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*"Muscle manipulation""?--''[[User:Matchu|Matchu]]'' 01:04, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
**Might sound weird, but I think that might be too specific. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I think that just controlling someone's muscles would allow you to bend their arms. Wouldn't you need to control their bones and nerves as well?--[[User:Aburu|Aburu]] 01:07, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*** I think body puppetry is specific enough and it's general enough to allow him to control activation of another person's ability (which muscle manipulation and movement control don't necessarily allow). We should get confirmation of that if he activates Meredith ability in the next episode.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 02:50, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*** ...you don't use your bones or nerves to move your body. Bones are for structural support and nerves are for sensory input. '''Muscle manipulation''' is thus an effective name, but I feel '''puppetry''' both cleanly describes the action (as someone controlling a marionette) and how Eric Doyle himself sees it. [[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] 10:15, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
* I can confirm that Eric's ability is '''Mind control''',though no one is going to believe me. He control's the person's mind though not effecting their thoughts nor emotions. It's similar to telepathy though Eric controls the brain's body reponses rather than thoughts. If you check my older edits on Eric Doyle you`ll find that i called him the puppetmaster several weeks ago. His ability is not body manipulation as he does not control the body nor movement. He stimulates the brain in order to achive control. MOST IMPORTANT: With his ability to control the mind's bodily reponses he's able to activate one's ability and this has been confirmed within the Graphic Novel when he had a confrontation with Michael.--[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 06:25, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
** ACDC, you're speaking as an authority on the subject. Where are you getting your information? Please be specific. Thanks! -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 06:42, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
** Hey Ryan. Well my cousin gave me a few snippets of information on the subject. I know that's not specific but it's very true. Ryan remember when Eric used his ability on Michael? He activated it. As i said above Eric does not control the muscle or nerve etc. He controls their mind which is how he was able to activate his ability. I implore you to make it '''Mind control''' as it is. It's almost as if he becomes one with his opponent, in terms of mind collaboration. He ability is one of force. It all happens within the brain. Also it should not be named puppetry as, although he is a puppet collector and nicknamed the Puppetmaster, the mere activation of Michael's ability contradicts it. His ability of mind control literally seizes control of the minds (though not like telepathy) of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control so that they become puppets or slaves to Eric. He's similar to the likes of Professor X or even the Mad Hatter in terms of comic connections. --[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 07:35, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*** As what Wikipedia says: "Mind control is a broad range of psychological tactics able to subvert an individual's control of his own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions. The concept is closely related to hypnosis[citation needed][dubious – discuss], but differs in practical approach". This pretty much sums it up, i vote for '''Mind Control'''. --[[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] 11:19, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
* Hey Futurepeter. Thanks for agreeing. As i said above while descrbing Eric's ability "His ability of mind control literally seizes control of the minds (though not like telepathy) of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control so that they become puppets or slaves to Eric." However the definiton you provided is not correct to Eric's entirely as it supports Matt and Maury's advanced telepathy more than Eric's '''mind control''' as you stated in terms of the practical approach. Eric's ability is indeed '''Mind control'''.--[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 12:21, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
** "Mind control" makes the most sense to me. I don't think it would hurt to wait until next week to rename it, though. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 12:58, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*** I agree too that "mind control" is probably the best description and is the common name of the ability. Hopefully we'll get an assignment tracker to support that. However, I think the second option of body puppetry remains intact since he's a puppet master. Was there anything on Doyle's profile that Meredith was holding?--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 13:17, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
**** Fingerprints. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 13:20, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
* Hey, Ryan. Always a pleasure to see your posts. Indeed, as i said above, Mind Control would be the most prefered title as he is basically controling the mind though not emotions or thoughts as i said above. Apart from that the name is very common hence it won't cause a massive amount of confusion. Thanks.--[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 15:11, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
** I don't have a problem with '''Mind Control''', but why does forcing Michael to activate his ability discount '''Puppetry'''? Only reason I like Puppetry a little more than Mind Control is because it seems Eric has to pantomime the motions of his victim (puppet) to use his ability. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 16:18, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*** Yeah, that's also part of why I'm leaning more towards body puppetry right now, but the main reason is cause his puppetry is mentioned on screen, and the terminology "mind control" is not.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 16:27, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
**** Agreed. Also, I wasn't suggesting just plain '''Puppetry''', but perhaps a variation like you and the OP suggested. Also, I don't see much of a difference between *controlling someone's brain's control over their muscle response* and *controlling someone's muscles*. The latter suggests the ability to override the messages sent by the target's brain to their own body.[[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 16:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
***** Well, accessing an ability is more likely the direct responsibility of the brain rather than the muscles. Even so, I can see "body puppetry" encompassing ability control as well. I added the word "body" to denote that it's not simple puppetry but is control over a person's body.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 16:39, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
****** Noted on both counts. I like '''Body Puppetry'''. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 16:42, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
******* I like '''Body Puppetry''' as well. To me it seems that if Eric's ability was truly "Mind Control" then Meredith would not have been able to speak, and nor would Claire in the promo. The victims are still apparently able to think for themselves. --[[User:Aburu|Aburu]] 19:17, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
* I dislike "mind control" as it implies total psychological control of the target, not just physical. In the scene with Meredith, it looks to me as though she is aware of what Eric is doing to her, and attempting to stop it, but is unable to. It seems to me that Eric's ability can control the brain's impulses to move muscles, but not the psychological/emotional parts of the brain which would constitute total "mind control." [[User:DismantleRepair|DismantleRepair]] 20:38, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
*They're a little wordy, but we could try '''Neurological Manipulation''' or '''Neurological Control''', which seem to fit all the descriptions here but still leave things open to a degree of interpretation. Thoughts? ~~ [[User:Darmenos|Darmenos]] 21:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
** To me that seems way too vague because that seems to say that the Haitian's ability and Matt's ability could fit under here too if you use Neurological Manipulation or Neurological Control --[[User:Rayhond|Rayhond]] 22:47, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
***I think that some form of puppetry will be the best way to describe this since Doyle has to move in order to physically move the individual, but the person's body moves the same way Doyle's hands/body does. In the GN Doyle, he utilizes Michael's ability against himself, so this has to be included somehow, but I think ultimately, we're going to find out a lot more next week.--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 22:49, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
***Yes, I suppose it's a bit too vague. I say we leave it as is 'till next week's episode, since the trailer shows a situation involving him. [[User:Darmenos|Darmenos]] 22:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
* Clearly you didn't read my previous posts. Eric controls the mind but not in the way Matt, Peter or Maury control it. '''It is not neurological manipulation/control''' as that would mean he could control the paths of the brain '''the way Matt, Peter and Maury can'''. In many of the comics i have read those with Mind Control don't have to control thoughts, i know a few who only control physical actions. '''It's all to do with the mind'''. '''ASK YOURSELF THIS''': If it's Puppetry how on earth did Eric activate Michael's ability? That is not puppetry. Controlling abilities start within the brain, hence Sylar examining brains, so he controlled that part partially.--[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 06:00, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
*Where's the evidence though? --''[[User:Matchu|Matchu]]'' 06:01, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
*The evidence lies in logic. Have you read X-Men comics? '''If it is puppetry Eric could only control physical movements. BUT he activated Michael's ability which suggests that he had mind control in order to know how to use it'''. How can you use an ability if you only have physical control? There is a part of the brain that controls movement hence '''Mind control'''... --[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 06:04, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
***Logic isn't evidence. It's logical that [[Michael]] shouldn't be hurt by his own powers (see [[Meredith]], [[Ted]] etc etc) but the poor guy is. Nor is looking at other comics; yes Heroes is certainly influenced by them but by no means is it working to the same rules. '''Mind Control''' implies too much, such as the effected person wouldn't be able to speak. Another note being we, the viewer/reader, don't really know how powers work. Sylar thinks it's all to do with the brain, whilst Mohinder's looking in adrenalin.--''[[User:Matchu|Matchu]]'' 06:09, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
* I seriously think you've not listed to what i've just said. Starting with your last comment. Mohinder belives that '''abilities start within the blood/adrenal glands''' but you '''control''' them with your higher brain function. I can't explain why Michael is not immune to his ability or that Elle is not immune to certain of her offensive attacks. Mind control doesn't imply much, telepathy implies much. Mind control implies the control minds of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control. --[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 06:13, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
**I could accuse you of the same *shrugs* "'''''Mind Control''' implies too much, such as the effected person wouldn't be able to speak.''". We still don't know enough about abilities to comment fully on how they're activated except to say both adrenalin and the brain play a part.
*''"...the effected person wouldn't be able to speak."'' Where on earth did you get this from? Assumption no doubt.--[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 06:18, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
**Your argument is an assumption that Eric would have mental control over the other person. If we accept you're right, then stopping someone from speaking would surely be as easy as activating their ability, since both things lie in the brain. --''[[User:Matchu|Matchu]]'' 06:20, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
* Mind control to some degree, yes. You can't just activate someone's ability '''without''' looking into their mind. Ask me how did Peter, when in Ireland, did not know how to use his abilities? He '''forgot''' them, hence the mind and brain! Bingo! Jackpot! Explain that. How do you know Eric didn't want to control her from speaking? Perhaps he just wished to control her appendages? --[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 06:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
**Because when she did speak, he shut her up? --''[[User:Matchu|Matchu]]'' 06:26, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
*Yes but Eric Doyle has obvious got some psychological issues. Perhaps he wanted her to be curtious and abiding?--[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 07:01, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
**LOL, now we're just getting into more speculation! :) --''[[User:Matchu|Matchu]]'' 07:04, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
* Note: According to the NBC blurb for the next episode, Doyle's ability is to "take '''mental and physical control''' of others." [[User:Chrisyu357|Chrisyu357]] 08:33, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
I think they should change the definition of his ability to being able to make others replicate his movements which is a more accurate,based on what we've seen so far, definition of his power.(Joe Tebbutt)
* This one is pretty hard to call. He certainly didn't seem to be controlling Meredith's thoughts, only her actions, so I might lean toward something like '''Body Control'''. On the other hand, there's definitely a puppet theme going on with this guy, so we might end up with something like '''Puppetry''' via a canon reference. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 14:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
*The problem with naming this powers is that every name we consider ends up being an umbrella term that leaves things open for speculation, when we're capable of finding a name that's not an umbrella term, we'll have his power, if not, I guess we wait for the assignment tracker. As far as I can see, '''Puppetry''' is the most accurate name, even if it's not very scientific. The best I can come up with is '''Induced mimicry'''. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] 14:39, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
** I've been liking "puppetry" more and more...but I think it'd be a good idea to wait another week to name it. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:51, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
*** Agreed and agreed. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 14:54, 15 October 2008 (EDT))
* Chris stated above: "According to the NBC blurb for the next episode, Doyle's ability is to '''take mental and physical control of others'''." I told you. It's not just physical control, he controls part of the brain as well! Hence it should be classed as '''Mind control'''. Puppetry is a bad choice in my opinion '''because it's vague''' When you think of a puppet you think of bodily control not mental. '''Mind control is better suited'''. --[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 11:03, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
** You're arguing that "Puppetry" ignores the mental control aspect of his power. "Mind Control" seemingly ignores the physical control aspect. '''Body/Mind Puppetry''' anyone? [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 11:24, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
*** Another note: So far, we haven't seen any sign of Eric being able to control one's thoughts. That's why the "mind" portion seems weak. I'm giving the NBC blurb the benefit of the doubt when it mentions both, until we know the canonical name. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 11:27, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
**** Reflecting on it more (the Mind Control spell in World of Warcraft, for example), Mind Control could very well be the name they officially use in the show later on. Since we'll know a lot more about his power after this Monday, I'd just wait until then to make any decisions. We'll have to see how they take into account: the "puppet"-like requirement of his ability, and the fact that the victims keep control of their *thoughts* (if not actions). Should be an interesting episode. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 11:37, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
*** '''Body puppetry''' seems like the best suited name for what this ability appears to be. but like many have said, we still do not know exactly how it works or what it controls, i.e. the body or the mind, because it could perfectly be that Eric controls the body's actions via the target's mind, and it looks like that's the most logical way of using this ability; something like Mind Control could even be the official name, yes. Anyhow, the name should reflect what I see as 2 sides of the ability: ''the user's mind and the target's body''... something like '''Body Telepathy''' or '''Telepathyc Puppetry''' (I like the latter, by the way). Opinions on this? --[[User:Elchafa|Elchafa]] 12:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
**** As I said above, one possibility is '''Induced mimicry''', it's not that speculative, and as far as we know, it's fairly accurate. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] 18:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
*****ACDC- I hope this doesn't sound rude, but the ability WILL NOT be listed as Mind Control unless thats what they say in a canon source. The term just does not do a good job of describing this ability as we have seen it so far. And I'm sorry, but your cousin isnt a good source. Hes speculating like the rest of us. I'm putting my vote in for '''Puppetry''' and have a good feeling in the next episode they will probably even blatantly call it this. --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 14:21, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
*Intriguing. Action Figure i don't mean to be rude but have you read what NBC published for the synopsis for the upcoming Heroes episode? "...Meanwhile, Claire and her mother Sandra attempt to free Meredith from the thrall of escaped Villain Doyle, '''who has the ability to take mental and physical control of others'''. He controls the mind as well as the body. His ability is to control the part of the mind which causes physical movement with regard to the muscles. Hence '''Mind control''' is the best and most suitable name. --[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 15:40, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
**NBC's blurbs can be inaccurate, and they're written by an NBC staffer, not from the ''Heroes'' staff. So it's not a source to use at all. As I said before, right now, it's important to get an accurate name, so let's wait for the next episode. Hell, it's been almost a year since we've seen Alejandro's ability, and we haven't found a suitable, accurate name for it that isn't speculative.--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 15:49, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
*Thanks, Bob. I agree but i personally don't think Alejandro had an ability. He has achieved the same things Sylar and Mohinder did. --[[User:ACDC1989|ACDC1989]] 16:03, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
**The CBR interviews with Aron Coleite and Joe Pokaski confirmed that Alejandro did have an ability (forget specifically which week). That doesn't really belong here though. The point I was making is that accuracy is what's important, so we can wait a week. After next week, we should find out more about it (hopefully we'll here an on-air description or get an [[AT 2.0]] tracker on him online that will give us a specific name.--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 16:15, 18 October 2008 (EDT)


Does Doyle have telekinesis? Because the last webisode showed him closing a door with his power. Sylar has also demonstrated similar aspects of this ability (with Mrs. Campbell). Could it be that they both have telekinesis, they just access it in different ways? Just a theory... -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:16, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
*I want to bring attention back to '''Puppetry'''. It's a simple name, but it's perfectly descriptive of what it is. They don't necessarily have to move how he moves, he specifically controls each part of them, like a puppet. The abilities are a null point, as a Puppeteer can control every aspect of his puppet (for special things they could add a button or an extra string.) He turned Sandra around by spinning his finger, can snap lips shut, and generally controls the person like a puppet, so if not "Puppetry", "Body control/Manipulation", but the former is far more appropriate.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 22:48, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
*It does seem like that. I always thought Doyle's power was just to control people. Sylar also demonstrated a puppet master like ability in The invisible thread, while controlling Claire. I am very unsure about this.--{{User:Catalyst/sig1}} 21:19, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
** I personally like '''puppetry''' as well. It seems to me to be the effect they were going for. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 10:36, 21 October 2008 (EDT))
*It could be that the writers are changing there minds. At first they wanted Doyle to be a puppet master but then wanted his power to be a bit broader and they changed it or are in the process of changing it into telekinesis. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:22, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
* As an effort to disprove "'''Mind Control'''", note that when Doyle forces Claire to close her mouth, '''he does not prevent her, mentally, from trying to speak'''. She is very clearly struggling against it and trying to force words out. Try yelling without opening your mouth. If it was mind control, he could simply force her to not speak. Every action Doyle performed was strictly physical, and "mind control" is FAR too vague a description, even if he has forced someone to use their ability (it could be as simple as strongly tensing up Michael's fingers, causing a discharge). "'''Puppetry'''" (moreso than "'''Induced Mimicry'''", as Doyle is not ''forced'' to perform an action to have someone mimic it) describes perfectly what Doyle does. [[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] 10:23, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
*But then again, many abilities have similar aspects but are not the same ability. This feeds into my idea that all powers stem from four or five MAIN abilities and all the other abilities are just different ways of accessing them. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:27, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
** Induced Mimicry doesn't imply Eric has to perform the actions of others, what it does imply is that Eric induces other people to mimic his actions. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] 12:05, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
**That's an interesting theory.--{{User:Catalyst/sig1}} 21:34, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
*** Exactly. I worded it poorly, but what I was getting at is that while sometimes he moves his own body and has someone else mimic the motion (eating in the last scene in Angels and Monsters, for example), he does not necessarily have to move to make someone else move. [[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] 12:44, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
**It has little proof at the moment other than that some powers do the same or similar things. I've just always thought that that would be a explainable reason for similar abilities. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:37, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
****I think the ability should be changed to Human Puppetry. It seems more of a total discrption of what he can do. Or even Physical Puppetry. All that is certian is that puppetry should be in the title somewhere.
*The actor that plays Doyle stated that his ability is to control the function of objects and people. He also said it has been shown before the door with the revolving of the gun in his first major episode appearance. This was on his twitter account, which I would try to pull up, but he's always updating it with a bunch of stuff so it would take a while. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 23:50, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
I don't like Puppet Master - that sounds more like a title than the ability - Puppetry is much more suitable. I don't like Mind Control, since their not in a hynotic state - they can still know what their doing, and move their face and eyes.
**Didn't Claire twirl the gun? I didn't see the gun twirling by itself. And Actors can say a lot about their characters but it's still up to the directors. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 08:22, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
I say Puppetry or some sort of 'Muscle Manipulation' - [[User:Rybo5000|Rybo5000]]
***The actor said he suggested the "controlling the function of objects" to the director and he liked it so they went with it. Go back and watch that scene where the gun spins. I'm sure that's what he was referring to.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 18:41, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
* I'm not a big fan of the name either...but unfortunately it's not up for discussion unless the power is given an explicit name in another [[canon]] or near-canon source... -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 07:35, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
****Odd, I remember him controlling one of the three to spin the gun. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:07, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
I personally think that this ability should be called Motion Manipulation. The name is self explanatory to the ability's function -- [[User:Catalyst|Catalyst]] 20:55, 20 January 2009 (EDT)
*****Yeah I thought so too. I'll go back through his twits and get a screen picture of it to show you guys. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:19, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
*Not sure how to upload pics on here, but here is the link to it: http://tinypic.com/m/2mmmie/3 --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:43, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
**You're right. Good find.--{{User:Catalyst/sig1}} 22:58, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
*I still swear that one of the three twirled the gun -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 15:16, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
**If someone can they should go back and watch that part. I can look around on the net to see if I can find and watch that episode.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 18:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
***It should be on the NBC site. They have all of Season 3 -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:40, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
****Hilariously enough, the pic used for the article for that episode is Doyle making Claire spin the gun. [[http://heroeswiki.com/Image:Dying_of_the_Light.jpg]]It was a mistake on the writers' and David's part. :) --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 08:30, 31 May 2009 (EDT)
**I'm sorry if any of this comes across as too sardonic, but how exactly is he able to control the movement of people and objects without telekinesis? When his ability was just controlling the movement of people it was possible some form of mind control was involved, but inanimate objects such as doors do not possess minds. The only force that describes movement that I'm aware of is kinetics, so unless the writers have decided that Doyle appeals to the Puppet God or the God of Movement or something, kinetics must have some sort of bearing on his power. With that said, I can't understand why the kinetic forces he creates can only control the movement of people and close doors, unless he's creating some sort of subconscious psychological limitation for himself. If he was, his power would actually be telekinesis, he would just be unaware of it. It's entirely possible I'm missing something really obvious, so if someone could provide sort of explanation that would be great.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] 18:56, 10 November 2009 (EST)
***Him being able to control objects was actually came from the David Lawrence III, the actor who plays Doyle. That's the only reason why he's able to do that. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 19:03, 11 November 2009 (EST)
****I get where the idea came from, I'm just wondering if there is a logical explanation for the power or if it's just a "because we said so" situation.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] 19:57, 11 November 2009 (EST)
*****I think it's just because they said so. If someone else can think up a logical explanation, please share it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:14, 12 November 2009 (EST)
******It was in the last episode of Nowhere man that he closed the door. And the way I see it is, he can only control the motor functions of anything, so possibly pushing a button, closing a door, opening a drawer. What you're saying is that he has some sort of telekinesis, where as the truth is that anyone with telekinesis has the limits of multiple abilities. They can control people physically, and if they learned to control individual atoms, they could slow their movement down causing freezing, speed movement up to cause combustion or heating, manipulate electricity, enhance their strength, fly, levitate things, imprint things, bend light to cause invisibility, and probably more. You're looking at it as this is a weak version of telekinesis, where as the truth is, telekinesis is a ''very'' broad ability, which has ''loads'' of potential byproducts. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 12:44, 12 November 2009 (EST)


==Sound Effects==
== Same as Persuasion ==
What are the sound effects for puppet master(y)? I see you guys are saying that when Sylar was controlling Clair's movements, and when he made Mrs. Campbell shut up, you heard the puppet mastery sound effects. I was just wondering what those sound effects are. :)--[[User:ERROR|ERROR]] 19:27, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
*when a puppet master shuts the mouth of someone, it sounds like a metal door closing. Not sure about the movements though.--{{User:Catalyst/sig2}} 19:33, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
*You can also sometimes hear demented laughter when the ability is being used. {{User:Thrashmeister/Autosig}} 20:36, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
Oh. Thanks.--[[User:ERROR|ERROR]] 10:46, 7 June 2009 (EDT)


== Technopathy ==
Isn't this ability the same as persuasion? Only more enhanced so that he doesn't have to speak? I hope that in the next episode this can be sorted out a bit furture... Would prevent us from creating double articles.
I think we might add a note to ''See Also'', since it's somewhat similar to Eric's ability. He controls people and objects, Micah controls machines. Your thoughts? -- [[User:Altes|Altes]] 03:42, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
Another supporting fact. In the Graphic novel:[[Graphic Novel:Doyle|Doyle]] they also make a reference to [[Eden]]. Out of all the characters they bring up [[Eden]]. In the story he hears about [[Eden]]'s death, and some how he feels sorry. mmmmhhhhhh maybe because they shared the same ability? --[[User:DarthYotho|DarthYotho]] 16:48, October 15, 2008
*You have a point. I'll agree to that.--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 09:36, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
* I considered that possibility, but I figured the idea of trying to lump them together at this point wouldn't go well given past attempts. So I'm personally content to wait at least until next week where we see more of him or hopefully are given an assignment tracker. I wouldn't be surprised if his tracker said "Persuasion" personally. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 16:51, 15 October 2008 (EDT))
* I wouldn't like his ability to be listed as Persuasion, that's Eden's power, and it works on a different way, anyone else noticed the trend of new powers that achieve the same results and effects as old powers, but through different means? [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] 18:19, 15 October 2008 (EDT)


==Once Again==
== Suggesting - Mental Domination ==
I am so sorry to bring this up again but PLEASE,PLEASE can we change the name to Puppet Master'''y'''? :-P I mean, how does adding a Y on the end of a word make it less canon? Forgive me if I sounded angry on that previous sentence, but I'm just curious. Haha--[[User:Hiroman|Ellis]] 17:15, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
*We have a near-cannon source that states his ability as "Puppet master", there's no reason to doubt this - {{User:Jenx222/sig2}} 17:23, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
** And another near-canon source lists Peter's power as "empathic '''mimcry'''". While unlikely, there could be a typo in Doyle's power, too. {{User:Altes/Signature}}


== Sylar ==
i think '''mental domination''' rather than control or manipulation. it seems as if he dominates their mental faculties thereby wresting control from the target/victim. shown in the fact that Meredith was able to 'talk smack' but could take no physical actions against Eric.


Should we add Sylar in holders of this ability?--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 11:27, 25 November 2009 (EST)
* I was thinking the same thing. When he shut Claire up, you could clearly see her trying to take control again to talk. "Mental Domination" is a very good name for this. [[User:OmniScience|OmniScience]]
* Yes. It was confirmed by [[Heroes Interactive]]. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 12:45, 25 November 2009 (EST)
**They didn't confirm it, they say that it was SIMILAR: * In this scene, Sylar is demonstrating an ability similar to which other character?


S. Meredith
== Image ==
T. Elle
U. Doyle
Reply S,T, or U.


> U
Hello my fellow peeps of the Heroes Wiki, just wanted to let you know I changed the image to something that is more informative on the ability [[User:TheEvilNoob|TheEvilNoob]] 14:16, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
*I'm going to revert it for the following reasons: first, it's from a GN, whereas we've seen it demonstrated in an episode; it's not the standard size; we'll have a better image on Monday when we see him use it more.--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 14:17, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
**But the other one is just him and Meredith kissing [[User:TheEvilNoob|TheEvilNoob]] 14:20, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
*** There's a lot of other good images to choose from at [[:Category:Images from Angels and Monsters]]. I like the one of them kissing, but the one of Meredith where you can see Doyle's hand is also nice. The one of Doyle closing Meredith's mouth by "pinching" his fingers is also nice, though it's a bit of a different direction we'd be going in. Though I do think the kissing image is the coolest. Bob is right, though, if we wait two or three more days, we'll get a different image, I'm sure. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:23, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
**** Oh I get it, dang you guys are right then [[User:TheEvilNoob|TheEvilNoob]] 14:51, 18 October 2008 (EDT)


: * Right on! Doyle the Puppetmaster can control the movements of others, locking them into place. (Similar doesn't mean he got puppet master.)--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 11:38, 25 November 2009 (EST)
== Quick Observation ==
* Check out the discussion at [[Talk:Examples of puppet master]]. It was confirmed in a message that we don't transcribe (but I transcribed on the discussion page above because I thought it would be helpful and is significant). -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 13:22, 25 November 2009 (EST)
**Where above? can't find it.--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 13:43, 25 November 2009 (EST)
*** On the discussion page that is linked above. Namely [[talk:examples of puppet master]]. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 13:48, 25 November 2009 (EST)
**** Forget what I said earlier. [[Adam Armus]] just emailed me: "As far as we're concerned, Sylar was using TK. He used the same ability to move the chairs before pinning Peter and Angela there (during the act break)." Thanks Adam! -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:50, 25 November 2009 (EST)


== Unconfirmed ==
Any else notice the similarity between Eric's ability and one mentioned on the map as an "N/A". The map says "Subject is able to manipulate the nervous system, causing major pain and also has the ability to take bodily control of one or more people." We haven't seen Eric cause 'major pain'... but this ability sounds very similar to Eric's. Can we derive a name from this or is it just a little too obscure? [[User:Seb.gwirionyn|Seb.gwirionyn]] 23:08, 20 October 2008 (EDT)


Should we add Sylar's victim at the unconfirmed list of holders of this ability? (He didn't kill Eric, so there must being someone else with this ability)--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 13:32, 25 November 2009 (EST)
== Assignment tracker==
*No, there is no evidence he took his "invasive" approach, but there is a chance he took it from eric empathicly. That's what I think since sylar asked eric if he could "control" him. This comment has been discussed before for renaming eric's ability, but I don't think anyone has thought of it as being the empathic link to doyle, both sylar and doyle wanted to be in control, so sylar would have got it from him. Chances are he got it from doyle (although speculative) but it is much more speculative to say that someone else had this ability and he killed them for it. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 13:40, 25 November 2009 (EST)
Looks like Eric's assignment tracker should be out soon. A password beginning with ED was in the latest graphic novel.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 11:24, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
**Even if he didn't kill, the person with this ability is still unconfirmed.--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 13:42, 25 November 2009 (EST)
* It's taking quite some time for the assignment tracker to come out don't you think? [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] 17:31, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
***That's assuming that he got it from another person. On his page it should simply say source unknown, like Peter's page with super speed. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 13:46, 25 November 2009 (EST)
** That happens sometimes. The tracker isn't always ready at the time the password comes out. We've had to wait a few days sometimes.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 18:14, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
****Actaully, i never got that one with peter's super speed, didn't he got it from future Daphne while fighting?--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 13:48, 25 November 2009 (EST)
*****Empathic mimicry allows him to absorb the abilities of any evolved human around him. He was around a bystander in the future street before he was around daphne, but we don't know which one he absorbed it from. It could have even been someone we didn't see offscreen from season one or basically at any point in time, but he didn't know it and only used it when he saw daphne doing it. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 13:52, 25 November 2009 (EST)
******I dont think Sylar has this ability, i read the wrong answer at the [[Heroes_Interactive:Thanksgiving]] but there still isn't really evidence. They really need to say: Sylar user Puppet master to control Angela and Peter. If we ever are able to get an interview with someone who has something to do with this ability, we should ask if Sylar got this ability--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 13:57, 25 November 2009 (EST)
******* My personal opinion is that it's been confirmed through a reliable avenue...but I asked Adam and Kay anyway. I worded the question in an open-ended way: "What ability did Sylar use to hold Peter and Angela at the dinner table?" -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:15, 25 November 2009 (EST)
******** So we just have to wait for an answer?--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 14:22, 25 November 2009 (EST)
********* To me it's clear Sylar has this ability. It's the same way Eric uses it - there's no doubt. --[[User:Powermimic|Powermimic]] 04:57, 30 November 2009 (EST)
********** Adam Armus confirmed that Sylar uses TK and NOT puppet master. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 09:52, 30 November 2009 (EST)
***********The way it's worded above it sounds as though he ''uses'' TK and not puppet master, but he has puppet master; the same way he has disintegration. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 12:17, 30 November 2009 (EST)
************No he hasn't (confirmed by Adam that he used TK).--{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 12:20, 30 November 2009 (EST)
*************You misunderstood me there. What I'm saying is that the way it's worded it sounds as though Adam is saying he ''has'' puppet master, but chooses to ''use'' tk. I'm not saying that he ''definitely does'' have puppet master. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 12:24, 30 November 2009 (EST)
**************Got it :) --{{user:Yoshi n1/sig}} 13:16, 30 November 2009 (EST)


== Puppet Master... oh my. ==
== Arg ==


The new iStory, which I thought would help clear things up about his power only seems to be making his power more confusing. He controlled a waiter, forcing him to approach their table, which seems a little too much for it to be telekinesis, yet he claims he can control the movement of the ball in the game operators sideshow, which sounds a lot like telekinesis. I'm not enjoying the whole "control the motor functions of people and objects" idea, as it doesn't seem to make any sense. What does everyone think?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] 16:32, 15 December 2009 (EST)
I may vomit.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 00:47, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
* My thoughts exactly. I can see why your first reaction was to undo the change :P --[[User:Aburu|Aburu]] 00:48, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
*I agree, i dont like it either. But it isn't TK, i bet he cant slice open someone's skull.--{{User:Yoshi n1/sig1}} 16:36, 15 December 2009 (EST)
**Would make for quite an ability name though, kinesikinesis, he "moves movement". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 17:16, 15 December 2009 (EST)
**how about a slight change to "Puppet Mastery", so it describes the ability and not the person with the ability? [[User:Ehsteve23|Ehsteve23]] 03:35, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
*** I changed it back to the way it was because the discussion wasn't over. We should first come up with a proper name and then change it. -- [[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] 05:44, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
***I have got to say, that's definitely my favorite ability name.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] 18:43, 17 December 2009 (EST)
**** I'm pretty sure that the Assignment Tracker, since it is number 2 on the naming convention, outweighs fan discussion.--[[User:Aburu|Aburu]] 06:51, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
***** Exactly right, Aburu. It may not be the best name (I would have preferred "puppetry" or even the more grammatically correct "puppet mastery") but it's the name given to us, so we use it. Unless another explicit name is given somewhere else, we'll stick with "puppet master". -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 07:12, 22 October 2008 (EDT)


== Names ==
==Puppetting==
* I did a little research on wikipedia, came up with the following names:<br>
'''Puppet Master''' (or '''Puppet Mastery''') which is on the Assignment Tracker. Variations on this are: '''Puppetry''' or '''Body Puppetry''' <br>
'''Mind control''' is a broad range of psychological tactics able to subvert an individual's control of his own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions. <br>
'''Body modification''' (or '''body alteration''') is the permanent or semi-permanent deliberate altering of the human body for non-medical reasons, such as: sexual enhancement; a rite of passage; aesthetic reasons; denoting affiliation, trust and loyalty; religious reasons; mystical affiliations; shock value; and self-expression.[1]. <br>
'''Muscle manipulation''' <br>
'''Movement manipulation or body manipulation''' <br>
<br>
Since Puppet Master (or Puppet Mastery) is on the tracker, i vote for Puppet Mastery or Puppetry.
* Why are we discussing names or even discussing voting? The name was given to us in the assignment tracker. As much as people might not like the name, it's the name the Company gave to his ability--and they are better experts than any of us. We will be keeping "puppet master". The only thing that means is that we might have to finagle how we write his ability name in narrative texts. For instance, it would be grammatically incorrect, as far as I understand, to say "Eric has the ability of puppet master." Something like "Eric is a puppet master" or "Eric has the ability of <nowiki>[[puppet master]]y</nowiki>" would work fine, I'd imagine. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 07:12, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
** Okay, i don't agree with it, but i'll go with it Ryan. -- [[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] 08:04, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
*** Yeah, I don't agree with the name (purely from a grammatical standpoint), but I'll go with it also. It's not ''wrong'', and our job is not to necessarily choose the best name, but to chronicle what's been given to us. If no name were given, that'd be a different story. But the writers know what they're doing, and they've given us a specific name, so we record it and use it. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 10:42, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
** The Tracker also gave Canfield "gravitational manipulation", which is entirely wrong. "Puppet Master" is a hideous name for this ability. At the very least make it a "skill-noun" and not a "role-noun" ("'''Puppetry'''" or "'''Puppetmastery'''", as opposed to "'''Puppet Master'''") [[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] 13:39, 22 October 2008 (EDT)


Doyle more or less explicitly calls his ability this in the latest GN (Starting Over). He corrects Joseph on the use of it when he calls him a "controller". Since it's the same rank as the Assignment Tracker, it's an equally valid name as Puppet Master (and lacks all the problems about whether we add a "y"). We can use either one, so what do people prefer? [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 10:22, 29 December 2009 (EST)
==Why not just use "Puppetry" as Title and "Puppet Master" as "Also Referred as" in the description==
*Puppeting. Far more better name for this ability.--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 10:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)
* Use "Puppetry" or something as a Title, and "Puppet master" as "Also Known As" in the description ?? --[[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 13:44, October 22, 2008
**Honestly, they're both equally flawed. "Puppet master" may have a grammatical error but "puppeting" isn't even a real word. I'd rather stick with puppet master.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 10:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
** For anyone who doesn't understand the "Puppet Master" thing here's the explanation. The Assignment Tracker is a canon source, which is made by the writers. They no more then us anyway, so we stick with it even if we don't like it. --[[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] 13:46, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
***Also, it didn't seem like he was saying his ability name but rather describing the process, like how Claire calls her power "healing" occasionally. An explicit name given in an assignment tracker is better then one given colloquially.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 10:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
** I'm just saying, use "Puppetry" for Title, but put "Puppet Master" as a "Also referred as" in the description. Then, nothing's lost..the info's still there. --[[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 13:50, October 22, 2008
****If you're gonna say it "isn't even a real word" then that argument is out. Before Steven King invented the word, pyrokinesis was never used before, but now it's in the dictionary. If the workers at Heroes decide to give a brand new word as an ability name, then that's the one we use. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 10:33, 29 December 2009 (EST)
*** Yeah i would like to see that too.. --[[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] 13:50, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
*****That's different, pyrokinesis was created by combining the word pyro (fire) and kinesis (movement), keeping in tradition with names like "telekinesis" or "psychokinesis". Puppeting appear to be a spelling mistake, or just a result of an informal conversation. Also, pyrokinesis doesn't show up in many dictionaries, just a few (for example, my computer seems to insist that it isn't a word).--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 10:48, 29 December 2009 (EST)
* Designating names for the abilities has historically been one of the most difficult and contentious decision processes we have here. Everyone has their own opinion as to what an ability should be named. Since we can only have one name for the ability (since it's the title of the article and what we call it in other places), we needed a deterministic approach that could be applied each time a new ability was observed that would yield a consistent outcome. That need resulted in the [[naming convention]] we use here which assigns a name for an ability based mostly on how canonical the source of information is. This way virtually anyone could apply the naming convention to a given ability and wind up with the same name each time. Since "puppet master" was the name of the ability on the assignment tracker, it becomes the name of the ability here. If someone were to explicitly name it on the show itself or if they showed a different case file or assignment tracker entry, then it would get updated to reflect what was seen on the show since it's more canonical. To address part of your question specifically, we don't use "also known as" because then every ability would have a list of aliases that just reflected what some people thought it should be called. We just stick to the info given to us by the show to keep everything consistent and organized. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 13:52, 22 October 2008 (EDT))
***Puppet master is also a colloquial name, surely? It's more of a title for Doyle then saying anything at all about the ability (much like Bliss and Horror). It didn't read to me like it was a description, because why bother correcting Joseph if it wasn't something specific? [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 10:35, 29 December 2009 (EST)
** To expound upon part of what Admin was saying, the Assignment Tracker is NOT a canon source. The entries that appeared on the show were canon, but those that have only been listed in Heroes Evolutions are near-canon. We don't know for sure who wrote this entry and we don't know that it went through the same scrutiny as the episodes themselves. That said, the assignment tracker gives us an explicit name for the ability, and nothing better (descriptive or explicit) has thus far been said on the show so I agree with using it for now. Whether or not we should fix the grammar (master vs. mastery) is different story, though. I've a feeling that it was a grammatical mistake and not on purpose, and we can probably clarify that when we get to Chuck Kim's interview. Until then, I'm also not happy with leaving the error but I'm okay with it.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 15:18, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
****Also, what if, since this is the official site of heroes, the writers decided to have a look around here and found that puppet master was one thing people were arguing about, so put it in one of the gns. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 10:39, 29 December 2009 (EST)
*** What Chuck Kim interview? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 15:42, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
****The assignment tracker is far more accurate then a simple, casual discussion. As I said before, he may have been correcting Joseph about how the ability was described, not the ability name itself.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 10:48, 29 December 2009 (EST)
**** The one Admin [[Talk:Arthur's ability#Power Absorption|mentioned yesterday]] was being worked on. I'm guessing we'll probably get to interview him again eventually.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 15:49, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
*****But '''''why''''' correct him, both understood what the ability does, what would be the point of the writers adding in joseph getting it wrong and doyle correcting him? --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 10:51, 29 December 2009 (EST)
*****I don't have Kim but I do have interviews with David H. Lawrence XVII and Robert Forster, that reminds me....--[[User:Skywalkerrbf|Skywalkerrbf]] 15:55, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
****** Not neccessarily PJ. Look at Jeremy- his AT is far less accurate then the information imparted in the conversations between him and Noah. Surely Eric knows more about his own ability then the Company does? There's no rule which states we have to use their names if others are avaliable. Controlling's also a valid description of Eric's ability (it's what he does- control people), so again, why correct him if not for the name? Unless we have a clear line as to what's an explicit name (and short of him saying "my ability is puppetry" it doesn't ''get'' more explicit than this), we'll be arguing about this forever. As far as I see it, what Doyle said is equivelent to saying "No, my ability is not controlling, its puppetting." Hence, it's explicit. [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 10:55, 29 December 2009 (EST)
******Perhaps Admin can clarify what he meant. Maybe he's doing the interview himself?--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 16:01, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
******* That's P-Dizzle. Anyway, Jeremy's ability had changed since the Company documented it, so that isn't a good comparison to use. However, as you said, both "controlling" and "puppeting" are ''descriptions'', Puppet master was given explicitly as a name, not just a description of what he does. Also, not everything said about an ability is meant to name it, I really don't think that the writers put in that conversation to rename an ability. As I said earlier, it may have just been small talk. They may have simply wanted Doyle to correct Joseph to look like a smart-ass, similar to how I just told everyone to call me P-Dizzle. I just don't understand why, if they both have spelling or grammatical flaws, and both come from equally ranked sources (supposedly), it needs to be changed. We've gone with the assignment tracker nearly every time, I just don't understand why this situation should be different.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 11:04, 29 December 2009 (EST)
******* No, that's my interview. I missed Admin's message. (It's so hard to check all the edits nowadays!) He and I discussed it earlier, I just wasn't sure if it was the same interview, or if somebody else had an interview with Chuck. I didn't know it was public yet. :) So yeah, barring scheduling details, I'll be interviewing Chuck. I suppose I can set up a talk page so people can submit some questions. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:32, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
********I didn't say it needed to be changed. I said we could use either, and asked what people prefer. You were claiming that Assignment Trackers are always more reliable- Jeremy's case proved that wasn't so. I said controlling was a valid description, and therefore there was no need to put in the correction if not for something else. Even if Puppeting is a description, which I doubt, so is Puppet Master, and we've been fine using that, so there's no difference here. And as I said, you can't get much more explicit then what Doyle said. We already use names that aren't "real" words (you yourself pointed out pyrokinesis wasn't on your computer), so Puppet Master's flawed and Puppeting isn't, so they aren't actually equal. My point isn't that this is a special case- I'm saying that we've got the choice of two names, and we should whichever we think is better. Nothing more. [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 11:10, 29 December 2009 (EST)
******** It's a tentative interview at this point still. I posted a message to try to alleviate some of the discussions where it looked like they might not be getting anywhere. I'd hold off on the interview page until it's confirmed. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 16:34, 22 October 2008 (EDT))
*********The chances of it being grammatically flawed is highly unlikely, most likely, they've invented a new word as a name. I can't ever really recall any small talk on heroes, and especially not in the graphic novels, writers are always saying they wish they could do more, so it is unlikely they would waste a panel with small talk making doyle look like a smart ass. One thing we should be noting is, it's "puppetting", not "puppeting". --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 11:13, 29 December 2009 (EST)
********* I don't think the interview is going to happen...Oh well! :) -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 09:05, 15 November 2008 (EST)
********Jeremy's case only proved that assignment trackers can become outdate, something that clearly hasn't happened with Doyle. And as for the pyrokinesis argument, that word, and others that may not be "real" words have been used in other works, "puppeting" hasn't. All I'm saying is that we should follow a precedent we created, where we use the assignment tracker name regardless of whatever sources there may be. Also, there's never been ''any'' small talk on Heroes? Ever? Also, "puppetting" is a word either, so it's not like that changes anything.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 11:16, 29 December 2009 (EST)
********** Bummer! Maybe he can do it during the December break? And why are you smiling about Chuck not interviewing? :(--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 11:54, 15 November 2008 (EST)
*********Not to my recollection, no, I can't remember any small talk. And just because Heroes is the first to use this name, doesn't make it wrong. I've never before heard of an ability to control the motor functions of everything, so of course, if there's a name for it, it will be a new one. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 11:19, 29 December 2009 (EST)
*** Throwing my two cents in: I think we should switch the ability name to Puppet mastery. It causes all kinds of grammatical problems to keep it the way it is, and adding the 'y' doesn't really change the intent of the writers. If they had mistyped the assignment tracker and listed his ability as 'Puppeg master,' or Knox's ability as 'Enhanced stregth,' wouldn't we fix the spelling error? Similarly, if they listed a character as being from San Francisco, Californa, wouldn't we assume they meant California, and not a fictional location? I think, since it appears to be a spelling error, and is from a non-canon source, adding the 'y' and putting a comment in the notes section stating the difference in the assignment tracker would make things easier, while still keeping with the intentions of the writers (meaning that they've cleared things up compared to the debating that went on last week about what this ability is). That said, I understand that it may not be worth creating a slippery slope on a hotly contested subject such as ability naming, and trying to fix it by attempting to get a question into the writers is a good way to go too. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 02:46, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
**********I dislike the argument that we should use the AT names "because that's what we've always done." If another name is better (if only for not having a grammatical error), and is of the same canon rank, we should use the better name, surely? [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 11:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
**** This is the only change I would agree with. '''Puppet mastery''' will be much easier than '''Puppet master''' to work into other text, and it still draws directly from the assignment tracker. I think I'll go ahead and make this change; it can always be undone, after all. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 10:57, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
***********I do believe it calls for a vote. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 11:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
***** I reverted it. The Assignment Tracker says "Puppet master" and if we're going to deviate from that (and therefore the [[naming convention]]) there would have to be consensus first. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 11:29, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
***********There's been plenty of small talk on Heroes, more then half of Claire's conversations with Noah are nothing more then mindless banter. Puppet master isn't a description, it's explictly given as a name for the ability. "Puppeting" is undeniably as description. Also, the argument "Puppet master has a grammatical error, so puppetting is better" doesn't work because puppetting ''isn't even a real word''.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 11:27, 29 December 2009 (EST)
************Puppet Master doesn't explictly describe anything. You don't get to what Doyle can do by simply stating "my ability is puppet master". At best, it's a very loose description. Puppetting may or may not be a description, but even if it is, that no longer matters because another descriptive name (Puppet Master) is currently in use. I repeat: Pyrokinesis, et al aren't real words either, and we don't have a problem with using those when they appear in the show's media. Why is there an issue here, then? [[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 11:32, 29 December 2009 (EST)
*************This argument is going in circles. Let's just vote and see what happens.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 11:34, 29 December 2009 (EST)
* You can continue voting if you want, but I think the assignment tracker is essentially a super-canon source so the name isn't going to change. Although I would like to adjust the name too, my guess is that only an update of the assignment tracker on the AT site, or an assignment tracker appearing in an episode is going to overrule the current name.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 16:49, 29 December 2009 (EST)
**Agreed. Additionally, in regard to Doyle's correction by saying "Puppetting, actually" is likely because "controlling" implies possibly [[persuasion|mental]] [[telepathy|control]] or psychological control as well. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 16:53, 29 December 2009 (EST)
***We don't know that though. "is likely" just implies speculation. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:00, 29 December 2009 (EST)
*We only use the AT as a source for names, because we felt The Company knew far more about abilities than anyone else who were naming them. However, a case like this has never happen before. The Company's AT of the person versus the actual person. I say that since both names are nearly identical, on the same level of canon, and come from reliable sources that either name would be just fine. We can just use both names and word it as such; Puppet Master (sometimes referred to as "Puppetting"). The argument that the word isn't a real word is flaw. Remember, we document what we see, hear, or read. If that's the word that a GN writer chose to use that's a word that can and should be documented in some form or another. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 16:59, 29 December 2009 (EST)
**The Company was dedicated to (among other things) categorizing abilities. The Company (and thus, ATs) are substantially better sources of canon names than the users themselves. I would agree that the page should read: '''Puppet master''' (sometimes referred to as '''puppetting''')... --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 17:04, 29 December 2009 (EST)
***I agree with this as well. I'm sure people feel that the current name of the ability is more of a "title" name as oppose to a "verb" name, and that "puppetting" would do away with such problem. Personally, I'm happy with the current state of the article since your edit, but I wouldn't oppose the renaming of the ability. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 17:13, 29 December 2009 (EST)
** OutbackZach is not not completely correct... we were told that the assignment tracker entries were carefully reviewed by the producers before being published, so we trust them more as a source for that reason too. That the Company knew about abilities was also a reason, but it was not the main reason. On a different note, the AT has before overruled what a person called their ability... it depends on the canonicity level of the source, though... see the related [[Talk:Gravitational_manipulation#Assignment_Tracker_-_Canfield_vs._Elle|gravitational manipulation discussion]]. Regarding adding 'puppetting' as an alias/redirect for the ability name, I am fine with that.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 18:11, 29 December 2009 (EST)
***So the initial rule that we're establishing is that The Company's AT will trump the person who has the ability when giving said ability a name (as long as the ability is still the same). However, the other name should still be noted on the ability page. Correct? --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 18:38, 29 December 2009 (EST)
**** Almost, it's not really a new rule. As stated in the gravitational manipulation discussion, it depends on the canonicity level and explicitness of the source. As was the case with 'lightning', an AT canNOT be trumped by the person who has the ability giving it a name even if it is true both that the person has explicitly named it, and that the naming was done in an episode.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 19:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
***** I don't understand the example of "lightning". Elle (or was Peter? or Caitlin?) called her power "lightning" in an episode but we use "electric manipulation" from the AT, but you said that in these circumstances the AT can be trumped. In the end, I think we simply give preference to anything (profiles, documents, etc) that outright name the power with something like "Ability:____________".--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 20:54, 29 December 2009 (EST)
****** Sorry, Referos, you are correct. I had to change can to canNOT in my above comment. Please forgive my typo... Both 'vortex generation' and 'lightning' were names changed by the release of assignment tracker profiles. Vortex generation was an easy decision because the name was derived from a description, and the assignment tracker was an explicit naming. The lightning situation was tougher, cause the ability had been explicitly called lightning by characters in an episode. And although I disagreed with the decision, it was decided to use 'electrical manipulation' over 'lightning' because we had confirmation from TPTB that the assignment tracker was being reviewed by the producers, making it a super-canon/bible-like source.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 23:10, 29 December 2009 (EST)
*******I don't remember Elle ever calling her ability lightning. I remember Caitlin calling it "a thousand volts", but that's all. We got "lightning" from Peter, who used that word to "summon" the ability in "[[Petrified Lightning]]". [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 16:43, 30 December 2009 (EST)
******** I'm not sure Elle ever did call it lightning, either. However, I'm rather certain it was called lightning aloud in at least one episode... I think Peter called it lightning when talking with Caitlin, not sure of that, but it doesn't really matter at this point.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 00:05, 31 December 2009 (EST)
*I agree that "puppet master" should be kept, since it was used to outright name the ability. But just a hypothetical example, for curiosity's sake: suppose that Doyle had said "My ability is called 'puppetting'.". How would we proceed?--[[User:Referos|Referos]] 19:21, 29 December 2009 (EST)
** See my above comments.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 19:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
***Miami, this is just a query, but if the name won't be changing anytime soon can we remove the rename tag?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
****I think it stays up for at least a few days so everyone will have a chance to give their input. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 22:41, 29 December 2009 (EST)
****Since there's an unofficial poll going on, I think it's okay to keep the tag up a few more days. Many people are on vacation for the winter holidays and haven't had a chance to comment.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 23:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)


== Puppetting VS Puppet Master ==
==Humans make mistakes and errors==


'''Puppetting'''
*The writer might had a mistake or something, not all in the Assignment Tracker might be right you know. Its also made by humans like as, and we're capable of errors. It might not even really be made by the Real writers of Heroes, we don't know. [[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 03:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#--[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 11:26, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--{{User:Catalyst/sig}} 11:32, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--[[User:Swmystery|Swm]] 11:34, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--{{User:Vampirate68/sig}} | 11:36, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--[[User:Hiroman|Hiroman]] 16:59, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--{{User:Leckie/Signature 7}} 12:16, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--{{User:BoomerDay/Signature}} 12:35, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--{{User:SacValleyDweller/sig}} 16:19, 29 December 2009 (EST) it's more elegant.
#--[[User:Juba|Juba]] 23:28 29 December (CET) it's what he does v. what he is...
#--[[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:55, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--[[User:NileQT87|NileQT87]] 19:50, 29 December 2009 (EST) - Ditto with "what he does vs. what he is". I prefer puppetry (which is even more correct). Puppetting is certainly better than a description of the person instead of the ability. Actually, "puppetting" isn't really a very standard word (Firefox's dictionary doesn't recognize it)--more standard English words are "puppeteering" or "puppetry" ("puppetry" being the only word recognized)! Sometimes basic logic must trump characters speaking in completely slang terms. It's the same thing with the fact that psychometry is in no way the same thing as clairsentience (also, episode beats evolutions) on purely definition terms. Sometimes the dictionary's description of an action that utterly predates the show supersedes some character's slang.
#:It was originally going to be puppettry, but I pointed out that if we couldn't change "puppet master" to "puppet mastery", we can't change "puppetting" to "puppetry".--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#:Nearly everything in your argument supports using "puppet master" as opposed to "puppetting". Doyle is not exactly an "expert source". --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--[[User:Daevon|daevon]] 21:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
#--[[User:EvilMaldini|Evil Maldini]] 16:14, 30 December 2009 (EST)
#--[[User:Fr0z3nB0nes|Fr0z3nB0nes]] 5:46, 31 December 2009 (EST): I would prefer Puppeteering rather that puppetting, but it is better than puppet master.
#--[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Darkfiremaster13]] 00:52, 2 January 2010 (EST)
#--[[User:Gibbeynator|Gibbeynator]] 07:34, 6 January 2010 (EST)
#----[[User:ERROR|ERROR]] 21:30, 15 January 2010 (EST) For all reasons stated above. Also, I wouldn't use a canon source that has poor grammar. I would use a variation of it, like "puppetry," "puppetting," or "puppeteering."


'''Puppet Master'''
* And it's not that "we don't lke it", We just think it's wrong grammar and everything -- [[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 03:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 11:27, 29 December 2009 (EST)
** Why are we assuming that the writers made a mistake...''twice''? It's explicitly listed two times on the page. It's reviewed by the writing staff more than once. The grammar is not wrong, it's just not ideal. I'm astounded that we're taking a name that was explicitly given to us twice and we're considering changing it or varying it. There is no evidence that there's a mistake, no evidence that it's a typo, no evidence that there's a grammar goof. It makes the grammar tricky, but "puppet master" can absolutely be the name of his power. It's not the name I would personally choose, but I'm not on the creative team. To go against what the writers have given us seems very backwards to me. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 15:42, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#--[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 12:07, 29 December 2009 (EST) (for two reasons. 1) ATs have always been assumed a "slightly higher" level of canon than the other near-canon sources. 2) "Puppetting, technically" can still be a reference to his ability as "puppet master(y)". He wouldn't say "Puppet mastering, technically".)
*** AFAIK we've yet to see a Assignment Tracker power name given, then later changed — although from a story perspective, that might be interesting. E.g., the Company finds out about someone's power and labels it, but then later discovers that it (like some discussions here) don't reflect the full depth of that power. Alternately but less clever, would be funny (but perhaps cruel) if an awkward name was put down to see how we react! ;) Here's to Doyle the Puppet Master! *creepy music plays* Re: origins, didn't Arthur Conan ''Doyle'' once write something like, "The puppet isn't the master?" --[[User:Torley|Torley]] 00:25, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
#----{{User:Yoshi n1/sig1}} 17:44, 29 December 2009 (EST)
# ATs give scientific names for abilities. Monica's ability was named both muscle mimicry and adoptive muscle memory in the episodes, but we use AMM because it was given by Mohinder, a scientist. And "puppetting" is a description. {{User:Altes/Signature}} 06:44, 30 December 2009 (EST)


== Consensus for rename to puppet mastery ==
== How I believe this ability works ==


I noticed that a lot of people don't like this ability because it can't be explained. I further noticed somewhere that someone called it a "magical" power. Here's my 2 cents. As I understand it from the AT profile diagram, Doyle can attach "mental strings" to people and objects. With those strings he can push and pull things, like pull a door shut, or push someone's hands together. That's what you do when you play with a puppet, you push (or ease) the strings or pull them to make the puppet do something. With that said, nowhere would the ability allow him to pin someone up against the wall, slice someone's head open, or make things fly around. Hence why it's so different from telekineses. Now if you wanted to speak in terms of evolution theory for the ability; it's possible that over the thousands of years that this ability evolved from telekineses. Which is why they're somewhat similar. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 14:28, 31 December 2009 (EST)
* Since it's come up a few times, I want to see if there's consensus for making an exception to the [[naming convention]] and renaming this "puppet mastery". The change is relatively minor and mostly grammatical, but we need consensus first since the term was explicitly listed. This section is '''not''' for discussing any other different names for the ability. It's solely to determine whether we should alter the grammar and name it '''puppet mastery'''. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 11:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
*That's actually a pretty good explanation Zack, I'm impressed. He'd have to be able to curve these strings, however, in order to close the door like he did in ''Nowhere Man''. That's plausible though, and I'm glad someone finally came up with a logical explanation.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 14:47, 31 December 2009 (EST)
** On a semi-related but not directly-related note, people may want to check out the discussion at [[Help talk:Naming conventions#Conflicting sources]] and the subsequent threads on that page, as to whether description-derived names from the show should trump explicit names for abilities from the assignment tracker. If we decided to go that way, I think this would likely not be an issue. So far only SVD, myself and a couple administrators have left their opinions there.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 12:06, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
**I also think thats a pretty good explanation. Only, I think telekinesis would have evolved from this rather than the other way round, as it allows full mental manipulation rather than by only mental strings.--[[User:Fr0z3nB0nes|Fr0z3nB0nes]] 21:40, 31 December 2009 (EST)
***The reason I had it the other way around is because Puppet Master comes off as a more a well defined ability. Whereas telekineses is all over the board. I actually figured that some of the genes for telekineses might be present in flight, levitation, disintegration, Trevor's ability, etc. Again, it's just good'o fan boy theories. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 14:11, 1 January 2010 (EST)
*One inconsistency, how did he make Michael activate [[laser emission|his lasers]] if he creates mental strings?--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:20, 6 January 2010 (EST)
**I'm sure there's he could pulled to make it go off. Something biological. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 20:33, 6 January 2010 (EST)
***You just gave me an image of a pull-string (the kind you pull on dolls to make them talk) in the back of Michael's brain. In all seriousness however, I suppose he could have lassoed an electrical impulse or something.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:36, 6 January 2010 (EST)


===For the rename===
== Doubt ==
# I don't have any objections. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 11:35, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
# I '''support''' the change. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 11:36, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I support the change.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 11:41, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I support the change. Despite what the Assignment Tracker says, "Puppet master" really is not a viable name for an ability. <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 12:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I support the rename -- humans are capable of mistakes, and the writers are humans as we kno..haha XD [[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 14:40, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# Rename it!!! or you can put a better name in the title, but put your beloved "puppet master" in the description, atleast the information's not lost..[[User:Witchy2006|Witchy2006]] 14:43, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I '''support''' the change. "Puppet Master" is a role, "Puppet Mastery" is an ability. (PS. There have been typos in the dubs of what Hiro says, the writers are not incapable of making mistakes.) [[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] 14:52, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I '''support''' the change. [[User:Invareday|Invareday]] 14:58, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I support the rename. It just the letter "y" after all. --[[User:TraverseTown|TraverseTown]] 15:12, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# Definately in favor of '''Puppet Mastery''' sound much better then "Puppet Master". --<span style="font-size: 8pt; font-weight:bold;"> [[User:Futurepeter|Futurepeter]] ( [[User:Futurepeter|U]] - [[User_talk:Futurepeter|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Futurepeter|C]] ) 15:45, 23 October 2008 (EDT))</span>
#* It worries me that we're making decisions based on whether something sounds better than something else. Hmm. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:28, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#** It not about that "it sounds better",its the grammar we're talking about here. [[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 16:44, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#*** No, the vote above lists the reason as sounding better. I'm not sure what's wrong with the grammar--what issue are you running into with the grammar? -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:49, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#**** It's the "role" vs. "ability" argument. '''Puppet master''' would be like calling Nathan's ability '''Flier'''. Supporting a name based on "sound" is wrong, but the role v. ability argument is a little different. The text of the name as seen in the tracker is left intact, with just a '-y' to make that difference. I don't think the writers made a mistake putting down '''Puppet master''', but it seems like they meant it as in "Eric Doyle is a Puppet Master". In terms of "Eric Doyle has the ability of..." (a context in which every other ability name works with, AFAIK), the "-y" makes it work. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 16:54, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#***** Not "[[bliss and horror]]"--that's something that Guillame creates. Guillame doesn't have bliss and horror--he creates bliss and/or horror in others. The "Soandso's ability" titles don't work ("Alejandro has the ability of Alejandro's ability?"). I also wouldn't say that Elle has the ability of lightning--she creates lightning. To change the name that's given to us (or to assume we know what they meant when they put it down) is to say that we know better than the creative staff of ''Heroes''. I don't like the implications of that. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 17:22, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#****** So you'd be against renaming, say, [[intuitive aptitude]] to intuitive aptitude if Sylar's AT profile listed it as "oogaboogalolwut"? With all due respect... I certainly don't mean to disrespect anyone... but if an ability name fails to make sense, then I believe exceptions should be made for those cases. (of course, in cases such as bliss and horror and soandso's ability, we don't really have any other choice considering that's all we have) The people behind Heroes are human beings after all. They make mistakes. Thinking that we know better than them might be wrong, but thinking that they're far beyond our comprehension is wrong too. They're the authorities, of course, but we shouldn't follow them blindly. <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 18:52, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#******* What are you talking about? Sylar's profile lists his ability explicitly as "intuitive aptitude". But theoretically yes, if the writers decided to make a change to some other name, I would absolutely go with that name, even if it made no sense to me. I surely understand that the writers are not perfect and I don't think they're beyond our comprehension--to think so would be ludicrous. But to assume that this is a mistake with no evidence is just the same. The term "puppet master" is listed on the assignment tracker twice. I take that to mean that there are pretty good odds that it was purposefully chosen. In fact, it's speculative to assume it's a mistake. I don't think we should follow blindly, but I also don't think we should shut our eyes to the explicit information given to us. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 19:00, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#******** I was speaking hypothetically. But just to clarify... if the name of pyrokinesis was actually given as cryokinesis ('''hypothetically''') on Flint's AT... you'd go with cryokinesis? And also I think we do have some evidence that it is a mistake... the fact that it's grammatically incorrect. Yes, it is listed twice as "puppet master." But note that the name/description is copy/pasted directly from the actual text. They could have made one mistake in the text, then copy/pasted it over into the image, making another mistake. I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's certainly possible. Besides, the person writing the AT profiles appears to be quite the wordsmith... I don't see how they could intentionally name his ability "puppet master." (on another note, the title of Eric Doyle's AT page is "'''Assigment''' Tracker 2.0"... just thought that was worth noting) <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 19:11, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#********* Assuming (hypothetically) that we didn't have a situation in which two sources conflicted each other (i.e., Flint's profile says "pyrokinesis" and another person with the same ability but a different name listed would be cause for much discussion)--so like if Flint's page never said pyrokinesis, but said cryokinesis instead? Yeah, I'd definitely be in favor of that instead. It wouldn't be my first choice of a name if I were to name it myself, and it there are holes in the perfection of the name (as there are with [[telescopic vision]] and others), but if that's what the writers are saying the Company names the power, then that's what we should name the power too. I know writers make mistakes, yes, but I trust them enough to know what they're doing so that if they're explicit enough with a name, there's a reason for it. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:27, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#********** With all due respect, you're contradicting yourself there... "I don't think we should follow blindly"? Listing Flint's ability as one that creates and manipulates ice despite obvious visible evidence that he does, in fact, create fire, is following blindly in my opinion. And there can't possibly be any reason for listing it as cryokinesis other than it being a mistake (albeit a very grave one that is unlikely to happen). <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 21:02, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#*********** You seem to be leaving the hypthetics of the situation you created and moving into more specific territory, but I'll go with you. Cryokinesis does not mean the ability to create and manipulate ice. Cryokinesis means "cold movement". I assume that if the writers listed the ability to create fire as "cryokinesis", it's because they understand that the character is moving cold away from the area in a way that creates heat and fire. But I think your real question is about what to do when the writers make a mistake. It happens all the time, and we use our best judgment. That's the part about not following blindly. However, I don't think this is a mistake. To assume it's a mistake is speculative. After scrutiny and editing and deliberation from the writing staff, this is the name they came up with and listed twice on the page. But, just to be sure, I've sent out a few emails to some of the writing staff to make sure since there seems to be so many people questioning it. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:18, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#************ I guess we'll find out shortly, then. And as one of those who still question it and don't think it's speculative to do so--thanks.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 23:24, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#************ Heh, you always find some way to refute my points Ryan. (I mean that in the best sense of the phrase) That's a good point about the cryokinesis situation. However, I'm still steadfast on the pro-Puppet mastery debate. Hopefully we'll get this cleared up soon... <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 23:30, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#************* The respect is mutual, Thrashmeister. :) -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 23:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#************ [[John O'Hara]] is the editor of the assignment tracker profiles, and the creative team reviews them. Sometimes John writes the profiles himself, and sometimes he gives them out to the GN writers. I don't know specifically who wrote this one, and I don't have John's contact information to find out. But [[Ollie Grigsby]] assures me they are edited and reviewed for accuracy and cohesiveness/continuity with the rest of the show. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 08:06, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
#************* Thanks, Ryan. That's some good info and answers a couple of my questions. However, it's a generic response and doesn't satisfy me as to the ability name in Eric's profile. If you can't get John's contact info from NBC, you might want to try [http://www.teambravobears.com/contact.shtml ElectricBear Studios], as it appears from IMDb that he could have been editor for their 2005 film (they do direct-to-video films for children).--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 12:28, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
#************** I've put out a few feelers for to contact him through ''Heroes'' staffers. I've done that before, but never such a concentrated effort as this. I think either my contacts didn't follow through, or John is one of those guys who would rather just do his job and not talk to "outsiders" like me. I can respect that. We'll see what turns up, though. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 12:56, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
# I support the rename. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 17:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I'll list my vote of "It don't matter to me" here. --{{User:SacValleyDweller/sig}} 18:19, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I'd prefer Puppet Mastery. Seriously, what's the harm in that? I'm guessing a Puppet Master would have Puppet Mastery. Puppetry is pulling it a little further away from the original name, but I say Puppet Mastery fits it well enough... [[User:Kortu|Kortu]] 18:49, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# Ahh Lighting 2.0! Personally I do not think we should have to be boxed in by policies similar to [[wikipedia:WP:IAR|Wikipedia]]. The Assignment Tracker is not a bible and should not be treated as such. Besides if every time we mention this people we refer to it as Puppet mastery which redirects to puppet master because of grammatical implications, it seems quite pointless not to rename it. {{User:Seclusion/sig}} 00:30, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
# As much as I don't like the idea of changing the name the AT gave us, one little -y couldn't hurt. --[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 15:32, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
# I support the rename --[[User:LeoChris|LeoChris]] 16:51, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
# My fellow peeps of the Heroes Wiki, "Puppet Master" is a person, and adding a "y" to the end is STILL canon. Adding the "y" at the end will make the name appropriate. All you people who are whining about the "y" making it "un-canon" are simply wrong and need to get over it. [[User:TheEvilNoob|TheEvilNoob]] 19:34, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
# I support the rename. Since we all are (should be) educated invidiuals, I believe that we should be capable of telling the difference between a noun (Puppet master) from an adverb (Puppet mastery). I mean, look at it this way. Eric Doyle has the ability of puppet master. If that doesn't tell you something then, I suggest you guys need to go back to the third grade. [[User:Titan3510|Titan3510]] 20:24, 28 October 2008
#* Let's not be rude....Also, "puppet mastery" is a noun, not an adverb. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:31, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
#** Sorry. Kinda annoyed that we have to have this discussion but hey, no pain no game. Anyways, isn't puppet mastery used in this context as an adverb because having puppet-like mastery is a verb that describes another verb. [[User:Titan3510|Titan3510]] 20:48, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
#*** No problem. Discussion is good, hurtful comments aren't. :) ... Adverbs modify adjectives, verbs, or other adverbs. Nouns, as you know, are people, places, or things. Both mastery and masters are nouns. "Having puppet-like mastery" is a phrase that has a verb participle (having) and a noun (mastery). It doesn't describe any other verb--I'm not sure a phrase ''can'' describe a verb, or at least not in the way you're describing. It's not an adverb though. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:00, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
# [[User:Yamawhata?|Yamawhata?]] 20:35, 29 October 2008 (EDT) We should be accurate to the canon, but not at the expense of the language.
# "Eric has the ability of puppet master..." "Eric has the ability of puppet mastery..." I know which I prefer. [[User:Isaacthepainter|Isaacthepainter]] 10:22, 3 November 2008 (EST)
# I support the change. "Puppet Master" just doesn't sound 'right' next to all the other abilities, not to mention the grammatical issues. --<font face="Copperplate Gothic Light">The Mysterious</font> <font face="Viner Hand ITC"><big>[[User Talk:Major Despard|<span style="color:#660000;">Major Despard</span>]]</big></font> 23:11, 3 November 2008 (EST)
#I support the change,mainly for the reasons stated above me. --[[User:Crazylicious|Crazylicious]] 20:50, 4 December 2008 (EST)
# Even though I don't like the canon name, we need to correct the grammer errors. --[[User:Litox|Litox]] 09:46, 10 December 2008 (EST)
# [[User:IceGhost78|IceGhost78]] Let's do this
# FOR AND FOR AND FOR AND FOR the rename. Puppet Master sounds like a job or something. Even Eric Doyle's ability sounds better. I rather have this ability renamed to "The Ability Which Controlled Meredith Claire And Sandra In Dying Of The Light" then to have it as puppet master. Change it already!--[[User:JLYK|JLYK]] 18:37, 29 April 2009 (EST)


Nothing conclusive, but the last two episodes seem to imply that Sylar doesn't have puppet master. My reason for this is, after he arrived at the carnival and started to cut Samuel, Samuel says "You could have killed Doyle, you didn't" and Sylar responds "Oh, I'll get to him...." and then makes references to a feast and how the carnies will make him more powerful. He may have simply wanted to kill Doyle for the hell of it, but when combined with the feast reference, it seems like he wants to acquire Doyle's ability, which would obviously be redundant if he already had it. Again, nothing that totally excludes Sylar from this ability, but definitely something to consider.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 16:23, 5 January 2010 (EST)
===Against the rename===
* I don't think thats the reason for killing doyle, i personally think he has pm, altought i'm not saying it is so!
# As much as I hate it, it is what they gave us. We have "Bliss and horror" as an ability name, which is terrible. Puppet Mastery suggests that he masters puppets and doesn't really imply that it's about humans. They seem to have named his ability directly for him, which doesn't help either, but removes that it's specifically about literal puppets (I think.). Hopefully they change it. It is, however, what they gave us, so we really shouldn't bend the standards.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 12:24, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
But its like you said, its hard to know what he has :p with all the commotion around his ability. -- ([[User:WaterRatj|WaterRatj]]) 21:09, 6 January 2010 (EST)
#* "Puppet mastery" doesn't suggest he masters puppets any more than "puppet master." They did give it to us and we're not talking about renaming the ability itself (i.e. making something like "lightning emission"), but rather only changing the grammar so that it fits more appropriately with the other ability names so far. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 12:37, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
#** (Admin beat me to it, but I'll post my thoughts anyway) Just curious, how does '''"Puppet Master"''' not also suggest that "he masters puppets"? And how does it imply that it involves humans, any more than '''Puppet Mastery'''? I don't see a difference in meaning between the two; I just see correct grammar with "Mastery". "Bliss and horror" is indeed extremely awkward, but the grammar is proper for it at least. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 12:39, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I do not support a rename. I know that the assignment tracker pages go through a lot of scrutiny and get double and triple checked. They are debated and discussed among the writers a lot. The phrase "puppet master" is given to us--''twice''--on the assignment tracker page. If we start to assume that things are mistakes when they aren't, we run a dangerous course of speculation. The writers know more about the power than we do and they chose the name for a reason. It's not my favorite, but it's a fine name. I'm not understanding the arguments for renaming it. If it causes grammatical issues, pipe the link: <nowiki>"Eric Doyle can [[puppet master|control the movements of others]]." If one wants to use a derivative, [[puppet mastery]] links here, and you can also just type "[[puppet master]]y".</nowiki> Our job as wikians is to document and chronicle everything. The name given to us is "puppet master", not "puppet mastery". If we don't document that as the title of the page, we are not doing our jobs. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 13:00, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#* Ryan, perhaps you can clarify some questions I had about the checking that is done for the assignment tracker? I listed some new questions at [[Interview talk:Joe Tolerico#Next time]]. Also, there's a line I like from ''The Lost World:Jurassic Park'', "whatever you study, you also change". We're not just Wikians, but Heroes Wikians and have our own policies which we all get to decide on for how we want to document and chronicle the content of the show and things related to it. Those policies are continuously up for review and debate, so your argument that we would not be "doing our jobs" is rather circular. That said, I understand the desire to go with what is given to us in black and white, but disagree with it. It seems awfully silly to me to not correct grammar. A change in terminology is different story, as it can imply a different meaning, but not correcting grammar can be an even slipper slope. For just one example, if we had "fly" for Nathan's ability name, that might imply that Nathan's ability could expand into him turning into a fly (which is not at all correct based on the show).--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 15:02, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#** There is no incorrect grammar in listing his ability as "puppet master". None. It's not ideal, but it does work, and it is correct. And even as our policies might evolve, our basic mission is still the same--to document and chronicle the world of ''Heroes''. If the name is given to us more than once as "puppet master", to change it (even by adding a ''y'' to the end) is going against what has been explicitly given to us. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 15:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#*** Actually, I think that saying his ability name is "puppet master" is incorrect grammar. [http://www.answers.com/topic/master Master] means an expert, someone possessing a refined ability. [http://www.answers.com/mastery Mastery] means possession of a refined ability. Both are nouns, but they have different meaning. Also, the assignment tracker doesn't put it in the form of a sentence. The name is in a box and in a picture above a diagram of the guy, so the intention could have been to name the man, not the ability.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 16:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#**** And we don't have to put it in the form of a sentence either. There are about five places where we need to list "puppet master," just as the assignment tracker has it--and none of them are sentences. It should be listed as "puppet master" in the title of the page about the ability, in [[Eric Doyle]]'s infobox, in the [[list of abilities]], in the list of [[evolved humans]], and in [[Portal:Abilities|related portals]]. All other times, the power name can be used in a pipe link, as we do with most powers. For instance, it would be incorrect to say "Eden [[persuasion]]ed Matt"--something like "Eden [[persuasion|commanded]] Matt" is correct. Likewise, it would be incorrect to say "Eric [[puppet master]]ed Meredith"--instead something like "Eric [[puppet master|controlled]] Meredith" would be appropriate. But the name given to us is no accident and is not a mistake--to believe that we know better than the writers is just plain wrong. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:46, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#***** There's actually one place we need to put it in a sentence...the opening one on the page, defining the ability. That's what I have the most problem with, as it's grammatically incorrect to say 'Puppet master is the ability to...' I could accept the link piping idea, but I think Miamivolts makes a good point that we do have to make decisions that sometimes don't exactly conform to the information we've been given (eg - combining the electronic and digital communication pages). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 17:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#****** If the lead sentence is an issue, wouldn't this work? "Eric has the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will. The Company's assignment tracker profile for Eric lists this ability as '''puppet master'''." -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 17:40, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#*******My problem with that is it directly associates Eric with the ability, rather than a making a general statement about it. There's no reason to assume he's the only one who has or will have it. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 17:51, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#*******I see what you're saying...but while he's the only one shown to have this ability, it's fine. But if it's still a problem for some, the wording can simply be changed to "The Company's assignment tracker profile for Eric lists his ability as '''puppet master'''. This is the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will." Another choice is "The Company calls the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will "'''puppet master'''"." -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 18:09, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#********* Alternatively, "'''Puppet Master''' is the company's name for Eric's ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will" --{{User:SacValleyDweller/sig}} 18:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#********While not the ideal phrasing, I do think that: "The Company calls the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will 'puppet master'" is probably the best way to put (and I'd have no argument with) it, if things remain as they are. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 19:14, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#********* I'll go ahead and put that then, since it's better than what's up there now. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:20, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# I think "puppet master" works. -[[User:Level|Lөv]][[User talk:Level|ө]][[Special:Contributions/Level|l]] 13:06, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
# --{{User:Pinkkeith/sig}} 16:01, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#Ryan is right. [[User:FutureSNLWriter|FutureSNLWriter]] 19:26, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#Yes - RGS is right. Sorry it took me so long to see it (might blame it on English being my 2nd language?) --[[User:Pierre|Pierre]] 20:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
#I'm fine with leaving it as "Puppet Master". Keep it simple; despite linguistic inconsistency, it's clear (and clearly remarkable, since we're discussing it) what it means. But gosh forbid we see a Muppet Apprentice later on! :p --[[User:Torley|Torley]] 00:27, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
# Puppet Master works just fine, and is even seen in an episode (forgot the name, Canfield's big story one.) --[[User:UrNoob|Max ]]21:12, 22 December 2008 (EST)


== Motion Manipulation ==
==Voting Results==


Looks like a better name to me :P --[[User:Ritamiller|Ritamiller]] 14:19, 7 January 2010 (EST)
# only half of the "for" are "against". So I'd say the rename should be made. --[[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 15:33, October 24, 2008
#* This would be a mistake; discussion is still ongoing above. I wouldn't change anything yet. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 15:45, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
#* Consensus does not work like that. It must remain '''puppet master''' unless everyone agrees it should be renamed. The default action is to stick with the [[naming convention]] which requires us to use '''puppet master'''. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 16:03, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
#** If that were true, Admin, (that 100% of people need to agree) then either the administrators need to hold their own consensus check for the gravitational manipulation discussion, or it needs to be renamed to vortex creation. There was not consensus from everyone to change the policy to allow assignment tracker content to trump descriptive-formed names from the show.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 17:32, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
#*** It has always been that way. The policy may have been ambiguous. A name based on a description is still a name '''we're''' making up. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 17:34, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
#**** It hasn't always been that way. Back before the assignment tracker existed, we defined "flight" as canon (level 1). It's another form of "fly", which was a term used in the show. We can of course change that to level 5 now, but technically that is a change of policy that was not decided by consensus.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 17:39, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
#***** Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of changing this to "puppet mastery". I don't personally find grammatical changes to be important enough that they should get in the way of a logically sounding name that conforms with the other ability names. Fly to flight is ok in my book, too. As long as we're not adding words or fundamentally altering the name, I would have no problem with it. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 17:43, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
#****** One of the folders in the [[Genesis Files]] is labeled "Human Flight Potential". In ''[[Genesis]]'', Peter says, "So I went to the library to see if I could find anything on human flight." Then he reads from ''[[Activating Evolution]]'' itself: "Genes determine obesity, blood pressure. Out of the 30 billion possibilities, one might contain the potential for human flight." -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 19:36, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
#******* Good find, Ryan. Though it's not necessarily a better source, and I've listed my reasons at [[Talk:Flight]].--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 20:42, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
::::::::Puppet master sounds like a profession. It should be changed to '''Puppet mastery'''. Now.--[[User:Citizen|Citizen]] 20:14, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
::::C'mon guys. The results are in. Everyone knows within their core that puppet master isn't a proper name to describe an ability. It's not even grammatically proper. So, why are you guys still fighting to keep it even though it makes no sense. [[User:Titan3510|Titan3510]] 17:38, 6 November 2008 (EST)


Kinesikinesis...--[[User:ERROR|ERROR]] 21:33, 15 January 2010 (EST)
==Bring back the "Eric's Ability" name at the current time, till we find the answer==


I [[#Arg|said]] that last month, but only as a joke, please do not use it. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 10:34, 16 January 2010 (EST)
*We should put "Eric's ability" in the title of all the pages of the ability, till we find the answers we needed, because some visitors of the page would find it comfusing. ---[[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 19:29, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
* No --[[User:TheEvilNoob|TheEvilNoob]] 19:38, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
* No --[[User:Piemanmoo|Piemanmoo]] 19:46, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
**Give a valid reason, "Why Not?" [[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 19:56, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
** No --[[User:TheEvilNoob|TheEvilNoob]] 20:30, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
*** We have been given a name for the ability, so we should use it. If there are any visitors who come here looking for [[Eric's ability]], they will be redirected to this page. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:31, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
**** Exactly. While there's some debate as to whether it should become puppet mastery, there's certainly no disputing that puppet master was provided to us. It wouldn't make sense to move it back to "Eric's ability" just because we're discussing an alternative. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 20:35, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
*****Admin, you're an administrator, you can change if you know your right.You dont need other people to back you down because they want to see what they want... [[User:Witchy2006|Witchy2006]] 20:39, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
****** It doesn't work that way. :) The wiki is built on the idea of collaboration and equal say. If I were to force things upon people just because I could all the time then it would discourage collaboration and would make the site pretty crummy. I'm not always right and it wouldn't be fair to force people to accept my views. Instead my (and everyone else's) goal should be to try to approach every situation objectively and try to persuade people. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 21:20, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
*I'm just sayin "for the meantime" [[User:NiveKJ13|NiveKJ13]] 20:46, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
** I agree with Admin on not reverting the name to "Eric's ability". I think Admin still needs to reconcile a couple things in regards to consensus as I pointed out in the previous thread. However, assuming it is decided not to change the grammar, my opinion is that leaving the name with the error would still be better than not having the name at all.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 20:58, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
*** I don't see anything left to reconcile. It looks all addressed to me. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 21:20, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
**** Then you missed my point. I wasn't pointing out flight as something that needed to be changed, but as an example to point out the falsity of a claim.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 21:32, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
***** I still don't see it. I don't consider "flight" to be a name we invented so it doesn't affect how canonical it is... so I don't see how it reflects anything new with the policy. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 21:33, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
****** That was part of the point. It is something old where we had agreed to change the form of a word to be the name of the ability. The source for the power name template had a quote with "fly" in it, not "flight", and has done so for over a year. Ryan thought that we could have used a different quote, but the fact remains that we didn't so that's irrelevant.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 22:19, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
******* I'm not sure about the 'Flight' issue, but I would ask for a clarification on the consensus rule check...are we really saying that the only way to change things is with 100% of the vote? That seems a bit too much, imo, as all it would take is one person to support the opposing side and the consensus discussion would, essentially, be over (or would have to revert to everyone trying to convince that one person to change their mind). I could see that things in this case, where it's just over 2 to 1, with a substantial ''number'' of people on each side, do not support a change, but 100% seems a bit drastic to me (just my opinion though, and I will obviously accept whatever majority or executive decisions are made :)) PS to the OP- I don't think renaming this to Eric's ability is worth it either...while I still think adding the 'y' would be fine, that's the ''only'' change worth considering, as we've been given a name for the ability from a reliable source.--[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 00:13, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
******** See Wikipedia's article on [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for a better understanding as to what it is. There are no votes here. 100% agreement is not an accurate requirement. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 00:56, 25 October 2008 (EDT))
********* My brother if you start using Wikipedia as a source for things here, you know how many flame wars will start? [[User:TheEvilNoob|TheEvilNoob]] 18:55, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
********** Errr, he linked to a Wikipedia ''policy'' page to give an idea of what is meant by "consensus." Most of Wikipedia's policies are pretty standard fare. [[User:GabrielPetrelli|GabrielPetrelli]] 19:15, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
*********** Agreed. Wikipedia's policies for running their site are not subject to the same type of questioning of accuracy as their general article archive (though even that's good for general use), and there's no reason not to source it. That said, I read the article 3 times and still have no clear understanding on what constitutes a consensus. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 18:36, 26 October 2008 (EDT)


==Name==
==Creations==
Guys, we have a near-canon source for '''puppet master''' and a near-canon description for '''puppetting'''. Stop trying to invent new names for the ability, we're not overturning near-canon sources for them. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 20:23, 12 January 2010 (EST)
People keep saying we have been given a name for the ability, but the only thing we have been given is a nickname for Doyle himself. "Puppet Master" was not referring to his ability's name, but rather his own personal dubbed name. [[User:Dean Harper|Dean Harper]] 00:31, 8 November 2008 (EST)
*I think we may need a new template on the top of all of the discussion pages for abilities that asks the user to examine the naming conventions and why the current name was chosen before suggesting new name changes.--[[User:PJDEP|PJDEP]] - [[User Talk:PJDEP|Need further explanation?]] 20:28, 12 January 2010 (EST)
* His [[assignment tracker profile]] said: "Unique Ability: Puppet Master". -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 00:47, 8 November 2008 (EST)
==Any chance of a rename?==


It hasn't been discussed for a while and I've been curious about the rename tab on the ability name. So..any chance of a rename for the ability to either 'Puppetting' or 'Puppet Mastery'? Or would all prefer to let it stay the same? Nobody seems interested anymore for a rename.--[[User:Realistic|Realistic]]
== Voting... ==
*If we look at the poll above "Puppetting" have more votes, so if we'll change the name I think it would be "Puppetting". But if we're still basing on AT it will stay the same --[[User:Darkfiremaster13|Dark Master]] 07:01, 31 January 2010 (EST)
** We use the name that was explicitly given to us. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 11:51, 31 January 2010 (EST)
***And that is...Puppet Master or Puppetting? Both seems to be explicitly-given enough--[[User:Realistic|Realistic]]
**** Puppet master, unfortunately. [[Assignment Tracker 2.0/Eric Doyle|See here]]. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:31, 31 January 2010 (EST)


== Heat generation ==
The voting has been going on for over a month. It seems pretty clear that a rename is in order, like it or not. [[User:FutureSNLWriter|FutureSNLWriter]] 20:54, 20 November 2008 (EST)
* Consensus here isn't majority. It's unanimity. The explicitly named ability name stays.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 21:19, 20 November 2008 (EST)
** That's dumb, there's always going to be someone who doesn't agree. --[[User:Powermimic|Powermimic]] 23:55, 21 November 2008 (EST)
***If you read our [[naming convention]], you'll see the only mention of a consensus being needed is for descriptive names, which this is not. From the page: "Descriptive names: If the ability has not been named and a common name for it does not exist, a descriptive name of the ability is appropriate, so long as it does not lend to speculation. A consensus must be attained for this level." Since this name was explicitly stated in a near-canon source, there is no consensus necessary. The voting was started before the name was revealed on the [[AT 2.0]].--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 00:33, 22 November 2008 (EST)
**** Bob, the consensus check here was begun by Admin '''after''' the assignment tracker was released to see if there was consensus to alter the grammar and call the ability "Puppet mastery".--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 00:45, 22 November 2008 (EST)
*** It was also stated (by Admin) that unanimity does not need to exist for a consensus change to be effected. I'm still not sure what exactly needs to be done for this to occur though, even after reading the wikipedia link provided. '''If''' there aren't set rules, I could see this going either way. On the one hand, we have a significant number of people (7) voting for the name to stay as it is, so it is a somewhat strong minority (and not a case of an individual simply being difficult and bucking the trend). On the other hand, there is a 3:1 ratio for adding the 'y,' which is a pretty high percentage of the population agreeing it should be changed. Again, I'm not sure what the exact rule is on forming a consensus, but 75% of the people voting one way is statistically noteworthy. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 01:13, 22 November 2008 (EST)
**** I believe the way Admin has phrased it is that it needs to unanimity of those who have expressed an opinion. That's why in the past it has been noted that saying why your preference leans one way or the other is just as important as saying what your preference is.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 01:23, 22 November 2008 (EST)
***** At the very least there certainly has to be a consensus among reasonable people that the name '''should''' be changed. By default (i.e. without full consensus) we keep the name we're given, but if there's full consensus then it could be renamed. Without getting into a matter of policy, full consensus can override policy since it reflects a unanimous view of the people here which is ultimately the most important thing. But without consensus (which I define as agreement among reasonable people to at least not '''disagree''') we'd stick to the naming convention so we'd use the exact name we're given. ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 01:35, 22 November 2008 (EST))
****** Can we confirm then that Admin assumes everyone who has expressed a preference above is reasonable? How does Admin assess if a person is reasonable?--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 01:44, 22 November 2008 (EST)
******* No offense to Admin, but this is a community, and any unreasonable preferences should be pretty apparent by the community. On a tough topic like this, the consensus probably should be decided by one of the four administrators, or at least a senior user in good standing, not just Admin.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 17:56, 22 November 2008 (EST)
******* I would ''guess'' Admin considers all users reasonable off the bat, only disqualifying the ones who resort to vandalous contributions and/or illogical reasoning (eg - The power should be changed from Puppet Master to Brain Drain because my pet rutabaga told me it should). --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 21:40, 22 November 2008 (EST)
******** You have a pet rutabaga, too? Small world! -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 22:23, 22 November 2008 (EST)
********* I know lets call it Blackmailinises Lol [[User:Gabriel Bishop|Gabriel Bishop]] 11:57, 28 November 2008 (EST)Gabriel Bishop


Ok. I've figured out a way we can re-name it to puppet mastery. Mrs Comey listed next to "heat generator". From this canon source we derived that her ability is "heat generation". Eric is listed next to "puppet master". So, given that we can derive "heat generation" from "heat generator", why can't we derive "puppet mastery" from "puppet master"? --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 13:15, 1 March 2010 (EST)
== Movement Manipulation, or Muscle Manipulation? ==
*I was just thinking the same when I was looking at Edgar's list. It would definitely be a better name!--[[User:Imax99|Imax99]] 15:35, 1 March 2010 (EST)
*Because the current name was given explictly, and Mrs Comey has no contradicting source. The fact is, if they wanted to call the ability "puppet mastery", they would have done so.--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 15:37, 1 March 2010 (EST)
**I actually have another point but I'll refrain from saying it, lest I incur the wrath of the Heroes Wiki community....--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 15:41, 1 March 2010 (EST)
***No, no, please, tell us. We promise to be gentle. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 18:31, 2 March 2010 (EST)
****<small>No, no. You're all vicious, allll of you....</small>--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 19:25, 2 March 2010 (EST)
*****Oh go on. --[[User:Mc hammark|mc_hammark]] 12:43, 3 March 2010 (EST)
* This ability has been explicitly named "puppet master" in the [[Assignment Tracker 2.0]] field for "Unique Ability" section. It has been explicitly named [[:Image:At diagram Doyle.jpg|in this diagram]]. It was named the same thing in [[Edgar's list]]. I don't know of any place where it was called "puppet mastery". If there is a place, it is certainly not as explicit as any of the three places we have seen it consistently named the same thing. I personally prefer the name "puppet mastery", but it's not about my personal preference. The name "puppet master", for whatever reason the writers have chosen, has been given to us on a number of occasions, and it's the name we should use. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 00:17, 4 March 2010 (EST)
** We can derive heat generation from heat generator then?--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 00:57, 4 March 2010 (EST)
*** [[Edgar's list]] is a mix of names of abilities, descriptions of abilities, and descriptions of people. If, say, and Assignment Tracker were to be released about Mrs. Comey, and it were to name her ability "heat generator" (Lord help us!), then that's what we would call her ability. But since we have no other source for the name of her ability, we can use logic to say that "heat generator" refers to Mrs. Comey and not her ability. I wish we could do the same for Doyle's ability, but we can't. We've been given an explicit name for his ability in two other places, and we've never been given another explicit name for it. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:27, 4 March 2010 (EST)
****Right, right. I just wanted to make sure I didn't make a mistake when I renamed her ability.--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 17:09, 4 March 2010 (EST)


"Puppet Master" just seems like a undeveloped form of telekinesis now that it moves objects.--[[User:Boycool42|Boycool42]] 21:39, 14 March 2010 (EDT)
Surely one of these names would be better than Puppet master? after all, he is manipulating ther Muscles or/and movement. [[User:Fred1793|Fred1793]] 18:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)
*Someone came up with a theory that it was like "string telekinesis"; Doyle attaches mental strings to pull them about (like a puppet master, get it? :P)--{{User:PJDEP/signature1}} 21:40, 14 March 2010 (EDT)
* The name was explicitly given in Doyle's [[assignment tracker profile]]. See [[:Image:At diagram Doyle.jpg]]. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 18:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)

== Update the Limits section? ==

After Dual, shouldn't the limits section be amended to say that Doyle's influence CAN be overcome, specifically by(though not necessarily limited to) Telekinesis? ~~[[User:Darmenos|Darmenos]] 19:52, 16 December 2008 (EDT)
* I was under the impression that it was willpower (...somehow), cus Doyle has been shown to be able to prevent his victims from using their powers. But yeah, it should be added that it can be overcome. --[[User:BardinessBoy|BardinessBoy]] 21:01, 16 December 2008 (EST)
** I was actually under the impression that Doyle got scared and lost his concentration.--{{User:SacValleyDweller/sig}} 21:05, 16 December 2008 (EST)
*** Really? I went by kinda quickly, but I remember him being pretty confident at the begining. Also, he got a nosebleed, which implies he was mentally overpowered. --[[User:BardinessBoy|BardinessBoy]] 21:09, 16 December 2008 (EST)
**** It was the look in his eyes, looked like he was scared s***less! (good acting on [[David Lawrence]]'s part!)--{{User:SacValleyDweller/sig}} 22:20, 16 December 2008 (EST)
*** At first I assumed it was [[telekinesis]] and, while that's the most likely cause, it's speculative to say so right now. The nosebleed is usually consistent with someone's power being stretched to the limit (eg - [[Matt]] with [[the Haitian]], [[Peter]] with [[Vault|the vault]]), and so that's all we should say right now. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 02:27, 22 December 2008 (EST)
**** After thinking about this some more, I'm going to revise my statement that the most likely cause of [[Sylar]] overpowering [[Doyle]] was telekinesis. I think it may be more likely that it was [[intuitive aptitude]]; meaning Sylar was gaining understanding of what Eric was doing and then making it harder for him to do so. If Sylar was going to use telekinesis, he could've just tossed Eric across the hall, or forced Eric's hand down (we've seen Sylar use tk without his hands, iirc). And I don't really see how he'd be using telekinesis to cause a nosebleed either, unless he was somehow squeezing Eric's head with it. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 14:56, 23 December 2008 (EST)

==Bodily Possession==

User:Shadowulf1 20:46, 21 December 2008 (EST) IMHO, I have something to add. For those of you who couldn't figure the name, it is apparent that his ability was Possession. I will tell you why:

1.) He controls people movements (and use of abilities)

2.) The subjects have no conscious control, and only one person ([[Sylar]]) has been shown able to resist him...and that's only because he had a [[Telekinesis|superhuman ability]]

3.) He must maintain concentration over the person he controls

4.) He has only been shown able to control one person at a time

I thought by now someone would have come up with this but personally I just realized it myself (the name may sound too spirity and supernatural for some, but that's basically what it is...Possession)

* Actually he was controlling Clair, Meredith and Sandra all at once at his store, and then Sandra and Sylar at once in Primatech, so number 4 is wrong. [[User:D Toccs|D Toccs]] 08:13, 23 December 2008 (EST)
** I'm guessing you mean ''Meredith'' and Sylar at Primatech, but I don't think he was actually controlling Meredith there...she just seemed paralyzed with fear. You are absolutely correct about him controlling the three ladies at his store though. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 08:28, 23 December 2008 (EST)
***okay well controlling numerous people at once means he simply has advanced possession.--[[User:Shadowulf1|Shadowulf1]] ([[User talk:Shadowulf1|talk]]) 12:16, 25 December 2008 (EST)

==I suggest we rename [[Sylar]] to "Douglas"==

*Isn't this a far better name? On a serious note, can we just remove new comments about renaming powers in discussions from now on? It is apparent that everytime we have a terrible sounding name for an ability, 5 people will come in, and either skip all of the previous discussion to post their "genius" new idea for a name, or they do read it all and post anyway thinking that teir new name is so good everyone will forget the conventions and go for it. It really clutters up these discussions. Is it against the rules to do this? --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 01:21, 22 December 2008 (EST)
* Sadly, yes. :( But I think a better name for Sylar is "Sassafras". -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 01:33, 22 December 2008 (EST)
** Seconded! :) --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 02:19, 22 December 2008 (EST)
***Close, "Sassafras-''kinesis''"... seriously though, maybe on pages like this there should just be a gian warning at the top? I know the naming box is up there, but apparently it isnt eye-grabbing enough. The bow on the main article page that says there is a debate is big and colorful and seems to lead newbies in to do their worst, maybe the same thing would stop some? --[[User:Action Figure|Action Figure]] 12:56, 22 December 2008 (EST)
* Now this is a debate I can ''really'' sink my teeth into. --[[User:DocM|DocM]] 13:11, 22 December 2008 (EST)

== Motor Control Possession ==
It's a far better name and applies greatly to eric's ability. [[User: Paul The Tree| Paul The Tree]] 03:08, 24 December 2008
* Unfortunately, it's not ever used in the world of ''Heroes''. We follow [[naming conventions]] to name an ability. "Puppet master" was explicitly given as the name of Eric's ability in his [[assignment tracker profile]]. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 03:12, 24 December 2008 (EST)
**Wish they'd have just had Mohinder say what the name of the ability was just like they did with Monica's ability in Season Two. [[User:Dracomaster4|Dracomaster4]] 18:45, 24 December 2008 (EST)
*** That would have been nice, wouldn't it! Fortunately, Doyle's [[assignment tracker]] listed the ability name pretty explicitly. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:45, 24 December 2008 (EST)
**** ''Why, oh why'' are there still discussions on "This is a better name, let's use this!" when we have explicit near-canon names? The only point of argument (and even this has been pretty much squashed) was "puppet master" versus "puppet mastery". --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 21:51, 24 December 2008 (EST)
**** User:Shadowulf1 12:19, 25 December 2008 (EST) No, it's really not a better name, and not entirely accurate...Eric can also control use of powers. I think it should just be Possession; not too specific, not too broad, not too presumptuous, and not too pseudo-scientific. Motor Control Possession is too specific, and pertains only to his control of motion, while entirely leaving out his control over the use of superhuman powers... it's Possession.

== Just noticed... ==

The citation for the name [[empathic mimicry]] is: ''"Empathic Mimcry"{{sic}} is explicitly named in Peter's tip in the Assignment Tracker Map.'' It's a typo. It's also ''explicitly'' listed. Assignment Tracker Map's verified tips are basically on the same level as the Assignment Tracker profiles themselves. So why is the name for Peter's ability not '''empathic mimcry'''? The point I'm trying to make here is that if we're correcting something explicitly named like the spelling of Peter's ability name because it's incorrect, why can't we rename this ability to '''puppet mastery'''? <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 23:43, 27 December 2008 (EST)
*That's actually a really good point. Typos happen. --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 05:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)
**The reason is because the ''Heroes'' crew that upkeeps certain "near canon" sources take names from this site that are originally created. We coined the terms "Empathic Mimicry" and "Intuitive Aptitude". IA was used explicitly on [[Sylar]]'s [[assignment tracker]], whereas [[Peter]] was not explicitly created. The AT map isn't as great a quality of the assignment trackers, but there is a tip that is listed. According to our [[naming convention]], [[Company]] listings for abilities take precedence over descriptions. Furthermore, there are certain sources that are valued over others, which includes the assignment trackers over the assignment map tips. So, the name for EM should remain. However, I don't see how this discussion applies to puppet master, so if it is to continue, it needs to be on the [[empathic mimicry]] page.--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 05:27, 28 December 2008 (EST)
***I thought its application was pretty apparent. Both "empathic mimcry" and "puppet master" were explicitly listed in near-canon sources, yet we're refusing to correct the mistake in "puppet master" whilst correcting the one in "empathic mimcry." <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 11:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
****In the shortest terms: They made a typo spelling out "Empathic mim_cry", it's possible they did the same with "Puppet master_". --[[User:Ricard Desi|Ricard Desi]] ([[User talk:Ricard Desi|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Ricard Desi|c]]) 11:31, 28 December 2008 (EST)
***** User:Shadowulf1 15:55, 31 December 2008 (EST) True. At least it would make more sense this way, if no better name could be thought of than puppet master or puppet mastery...
Bump for justice. <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 20:03, 20 January 2009 (EST)
*I think the skipping of the y is plausible, but it's more likely that they meant to put master. I prefer mastery though. -- {{User:Tristan0709/Signature}} 21:28, 20 January 2009 (EST)

==Physical Manipulation?==
It's said as Eric's ability in the Heroes application for MySpace...
*Unfortunately, we are bound to using the name given by Eric's [[assignment tracker]], which gives his ability name as 'Puppet master'. Bummer, I know.--[[User:Crazylicious|Crazylicious]] 22:59, 10 January 2009 (EST)
**I think this sounds better too. [[User:Serojay|Serojay]] 06:45, 18 February 2009 (EST)

==Episode [[Dual]]; "Control"==

*I just noticed, didn't Sylar said to Eric,

"You really think, you can '''''control''''' me?"

**Is this a canon source now?:
#It was stated in the show.
#Similarly to Peter saying he can "fly", which then later converted to "flight".
#imo, it sounds much better anyway XD
--{{User:NiveKJ13/sig1}} 19:28, 4 January 2009 (EST)
* I'm not sure what you're proposing here. "Control me," would be more of a description of what was happening than an ability name. It's similar to how people say Parkman can "read minds," or how Molly can "find people." It's already included in the description of the ability, so this just backs that up. I'm sorry if I've completely misinterpreted what you were proposing, as I feel I have. --[[User:Stevehim|Stevehim]] 19:45, 4 January 2009 (EST)
** The name of Eric's ability was explicitly given in his [[Assignment Tracker]] file. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:04, 4 January 2009 (EST)
*I'd rather not have "Control" because we already have a [[Graphic Novel:Control|graphic novel of the same name]]. -- {{User:Tristan0709/Signature}} 21:32, 20 January 2009 (EST)

==Has Sylar acquired it?==
I was just rewatching [[Trust and Blood]] (specifically the Sylar and the Campbells scenes) and realized that at one point, Sylar literally makes Mary "shut up" by closing his fingers together, extremely similar to Eric's signature movements. I also think it was a different noise heard than the standard "telekinesis whoosh." While yeah, the argument stands that it's probably just telekinesis, it is possible that Sylar has indeed acquired Puppet master(y) (perhaps off-screen, maybe not even from Doyle). -[[User:Whizzles|Whizzles]] 16:04, 11 February 2009 (EST)
* Good observation. Check out the related discussion at [[Talk:Sylar#...Puppet master?]]. Ultimately, I think we don't have enough information to say which ability he was using. I'm tending to think it was Eric Doyle's ability, especially since the people did what Sylar wanted them to yet were squirming the whole time--very much like Doyle's victims. But no way would I state that unequivocally in an article since we just don't know enough. Sounds like a great question for CBR... -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:57, 11 February 2009 (EST)
** If you're sending to CBR, deadline is tomorrow to appear among next week's questions; just a heads-up.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 17:02, 11 February 2009 (EST)
*** I sent in a couple questions yesterday. We'll see if anything gets answered. ::crosses fingers:: -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 21:03, 12 February 2009 (EST)
** Just a quick note about Mary and Luke being restrained; that was definitely telekinesis, I think. Before he restrained them, Sylar opened his hand wide open and thrust his fingers forward at both Luke and Mary with the telekinesis sound effect. <small>'''Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ [[User:Thrashmeister|U]] | [[User_talk:Thrashmeister|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Thrashmeister|C]] ]'''</small> 18:04, 11 February 2009 (EST)
*** To make them sit it was definitely telekinesis, I still think that shuting Mary up was telekinesis, he's done more than that to Audrey before. I know writers aren't supposed to give away everything that happens at once so they can build suspense up, but I if they know how much we discuss this things, I doubt some of them don't find it amusing. [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 18:08, 11 February 2009 (EST)
*Thanks for the link, RGS. Coulda sworn I'd looked at Sylar's talk page for a similar discussion before posting here. :P -[[User:Whizzles|Whizzles]] 18:04, 12 February 2009 (EST)
**I'm pretty sure he used puppet master. He was using telekinesis to hold them down, but that was definitely puppet master to shut her up. It made the sound cue. But he didn't kill doyle, and as far as we know he hasn't done anything empathic with him. Maybe it's just a small oversite on the writers part.

== Examples ==

Since there are more than eight examples, would it be a good idea to make an examples page? [[User:Intuitive Empath|Intuitive Empath]] - [[User talk:Intuitive Empath|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Intuitive Empath|Contributions]] 12:01, 18 February 2009 (EST)
*Yeah since he's back there'll probably be more too, I'll go ahead and make the examples page now. --[[User:Radicell|Radicell]] 06:29, 4 March 2009 (EST)

== let us make the name change ==

[[User:IceGhost78|IceGhost78]] well more people outnumber it so shouldnt we change the name, because puppet master is a person and its still canon because it has the name in it if you add a y
:: [[User:IceGhost78|IceGhost78]] yeah it is i just said it still has the same name just with a y
::: Thats not the same --[[User:Betamax|Betamax]] 21:25, 14 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Betamax, its not allowed to swear in the site. Please remain civil. --{{User:NiveKJ13/sig1}} 21:33, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

== Make A List ==

Here We Go:
Make a list of all possible names, add your own if you want, then if you want to vote for it, add your name beside it. Mine First

Human Puppetry --[[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 07:46, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
* We do not vote hear, we look for consensus. --{{User:Laughingdevilboy/signature}} 10:51, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
** Additionally, when a name for an ability is explicitly given, there is nothing to vote on--nor do we need to find consensus. The main issue being discussed (months ago) on this page is whether or not there was a grammatical error on Doyle's [[assignment tracker]] file. Ultimately, there is no consensus whether a mistake was made or not. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 16:56, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
* Not that it matters, but Wikipedia calls it "Puppet mastery". [[User:BoomerDay|BoomerDay]] 15:18, 11 April 2009 (EDT)

== David H Lawrence Thoughts ==

I have recently emailed an have been emailed back by David H Lawrence, the actor who portrays Eric Doyle. He say's it's called "intricate physical manipulation of people and objects". I just want to know if this can be used in any way to name the power correctly. If a copy of the email is needed on here then cansomeone tell me how to put it on. That or I could forward it to anyone who wishes to see it.--[[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 12:11, 29 April 2009 (EDT)
*That's a description not a name. And I don't think the actor overrides an assignment tracker.
**I never said he did. I just wanted to know if it would help in any way. Obviously not. If you don't think it's a name then just use physical manipulation, but I think the mention of objects is worth a mention as it is not included so far. And please remember to sign your name. --[[User:Mc hammark|Mc hammark]] 16:37, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

==Nowhere Man, Part 4==

In Nowhere Man Part 4, Doyle closed a door with his ability, but there was no human there for him to make do it. Should we add this to the limits section? [[User:Teh Krush|Teh Krush]] 20:28, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
* Yes. Definitely. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 20:32, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

==Telekinesis==

Does Doyle have telekinesis? Because the last webisode showed him closing a door with his power. Sylar has also demonstrated similar aspects of this ability (with Mrs. Campbell). Could it be that they both have telekinesis, they just access it in different ways? Just a theory... -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:16, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
*It does seem like that. I always thought Doyle's power was just to control people. Sylar also demonstrated a puppet master like ability in The invisible thread, while controlling Claire. I am very unsure about this.--{{User:Catalyst/sig1}} 21:19, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
*It could be that the writers are changing there minds. At first they wanted Doyle to be a puppet master but then wanted his power to be a bit broader and they changed it or are in the process of changing it into telekinesis. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:22, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
*But then again, many abilities have similar aspects but are not the same ability. This feeds into my idea that all powers stem from four or five MAIN abilities and all the other abilities are just different ways of accessing them. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:27, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
**That's an interesting theory.--{{User:Catalyst/sig1}} 21:34, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
**It has little proof at the moment other than that some powers do the same or similar things. I've just always thought that that would be a explainable reason for similar abilities. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 21:37, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
*The actor that plays Doyle stated that his ability is to control the function of objects and people. He also said it has been shown before the door with the revolving of the gun in his first major episode appearance. This was on his twitter account, which I would try to pull up, but he's always updating it with a bunch of stuff so it would take a while. --[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 23:50, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
**Didn't Claire twirl the gun? I didn't see the gun twirling by itself. And Actors can say a lot about their characters but it's still up to the directors. -[[User:Vampirate68|Vampirate68]] 08:22, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
***The actor said he suggested the "controlling the function of objects" to the director and he liked it so they went with it. Go back and watch that scene where the gun spins. I'm sure that's what he was referring to.--[[User:OutbackZack|OutbackZack]] 18:41, 16 May 2009 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 01:41, 15 March 2010

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine puppet master's name.
Source/Explanation
This ability is explicitly named in Edgar's list and in Eric Doyle's Assignment Tracker 2.0.
Archives Archived Topics
Nov-Dec 2008 [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]]

Dec 2008-Apr 2009 [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error message]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag]] • [[Talk:Puppet master/Archive 2#

Extension:DynamicPageList3 (DPL3), version 3.6.1: Error: MediaWiki\Extension\DynamicPageList3\Query::buildAndSelect: The DynamicPageList3 extension (version 3.6.1) produced a SQL statement which led to a Database error.<br/>The reason may be an internal error of DynamicPageList3 or an error that you made; especially when using parameters like 'categoryregexp' or 'titleregexp'. Usage of non-greedy <code>*?</code> matching patterns are not supported.<br/>The error messag|

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Nowhere Man, Part 4

In Nowhere Man Part 4, Doyle closed a door with his ability, but there was no human there for him to make do it. Should we add this to the limits section? Teh Krush 20:28, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

Telekinesis

Does Doyle have telekinesis? Because the last webisode showed him closing a door with his power. Sylar has also demonstrated similar aspects of this ability (with Mrs. Campbell). Could it be that they both have telekinesis, they just access it in different ways? Just a theory... -Vampirate68 21:16, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

  • It does seem like that. I always thought Doyle's power was just to control people. Sylar also demonstrated a puppet master like ability in The invisible thread, while controlling Claire. I am very unsure about this.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 21:19, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
  • It could be that the writers are changing there minds. At first they wanted Doyle to be a puppet master but then wanted his power to be a bit broader and they changed it or are in the process of changing it into telekinesis. -Vampirate68 21:22, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
  • But then again, many abilities have similar aspects but are not the same ability. This feeds into my idea that all powers stem from four or five MAIN abilities and all the other abilities are just different ways of accessing them. -Vampirate68 21:27, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
    • That's an interesting theory.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 21:34, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
    • It has little proof at the moment other than that some powers do the same or similar things. I've just always thought that that would be a explainable reason for similar abilities. -Vampirate68 21:37, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
  • The actor that plays Doyle stated that his ability is to control the function of objects and people. He also said it has been shown before the door with the revolving of the gun in his first major episode appearance. This was on his twitter account, which I would try to pull up, but he's always updating it with a bunch of stuff so it would take a while. --OutbackZack 23:50, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
    • Didn't Claire twirl the gun? I didn't see the gun twirling by itself. And Actors can say a lot about their characters but it's still up to the directors. -Vampirate68 08:22, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
      • The actor said he suggested the "controlling the function of objects" to the director and he liked it so they went with it. Go back and watch that scene where the gun spins. I'm sure that's what he was referring to.--OutbackZack 18:41, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
        • Odd, I remember him controlling one of the three to spin the gun. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:07, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
          • Yeah I thought so too. I'll go back through his twits and get a screen picture of it to show you guys. --OutbackZack 20:19, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
  • Not sure how to upload pics on here, but here is the link to it: http://tinypic.com/m/2mmmie/3 --OutbackZack 20:43, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
    • You're right. Good find.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 22:58, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
  • I still swear that one of the three twirled the gun -Vampirate68 15:16, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
    • If someone can they should go back and watch that part. I can look around on the net to see if I can find and watch that episode.--OutbackZack 18:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
      • It should be on the NBC site. They have all of Season 3 -Vampirate68 21:40, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
        • Hilariously enough, the pic used for the article for that episode is Doyle making Claire spin the gun. [[1]]It was a mistake on the writers' and David's part.  :) --Action Figure 08:30, 31 May 2009 (EDT)
    • I'm sorry if any of this comes across as too sardonic, but how exactly is he able to control the movement of people and objects without telekinesis? When his ability was just controlling the movement of people it was possible some form of mind control was involved, but inanimate objects such as doors do not possess minds. The only force that describes movement that I'm aware of is kinetics, so unless the writers have decided that Doyle appeals to the Puppet God or the God of Movement or something, kinetics must have some sort of bearing on his power. With that said, I can't understand why the kinetic forces he creates can only control the movement of people and close doors, unless he's creating some sort of subconscious psychological limitation for himself. If he was, his power would actually be telekinesis, he would just be unaware of it. It's entirely possible I'm missing something really obvious, so if someone could provide sort of explanation that would be great.--PJDEP 18:56, 10 November 2009 (EST)
      • Him being able to control objects was actually came from the David Lawrence III, the actor who plays Doyle. That's the only reason why he's able to do that. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:03, 11 November 2009 (EST)
        • I get where the idea came from, I'm just wondering if there is a logical explanation for the power or if it's just a "because we said so" situation.--PJDEP 19:57, 11 November 2009 (EST)
          • I think it's just because they said so. If someone else can think up a logical explanation, please share it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:14, 12 November 2009 (EST)
            • It was in the last episode of Nowhere man that he closed the door. And the way I see it is, he can only control the motor functions of anything, so possibly pushing a button, closing a door, opening a drawer. What you're saying is that he has some sort of telekinesis, where as the truth is that anyone with telekinesis has the limits of multiple abilities. They can control people physically, and if they learned to control individual atoms, they could slow their movement down causing freezing, speed movement up to cause combustion or heating, manipulate electricity, enhance their strength, fly, levitate things, imprint things, bend light to cause invisibility, and probably more. You're looking at it as this is a weak version of telekinesis, where as the truth is, telekinesis is a very broad ability, which has loads of potential byproducts. --mc_hammark 12:44, 12 November 2009 (EST)

Sound Effects

What are the sound effects for puppet master(y)? I see you guys are saying that when Sylar was controlling Clair's movements, and when he made Mrs. Campbell shut up, you heard the puppet mastery sound effects. I was just wondering what those sound effects are. :)--ERROR 19:27, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

  • when a puppet master shuts the mouth of someone, it sounds like a metal door closing. Not sure about the movements though.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 19:33, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
  • You can also sometimes hear demented laughter when the ability is being used. -Sincerely, Thrashmeister » talk- 20:36, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

Oh. Thanks.--ERROR 10:46, 7 June 2009 (EDT)

Technopathy

I think we might add a note to See Also, since it's somewhat similar to Eric's ability. He controls people and objects, Micah controls machines. Your thoughts? -- Altes 03:42, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

  • You have a point. I'll agree to that.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 09:36, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Once Again

I am so sorry to bring this up again but PLEASE,PLEASE can we change the name to Puppet Mastery? :-P I mean, how does adding a Y on the end of a word make it less canon? Forgive me if I sounded angry on that previous sentence, but I'm just curious. Haha--Ellis 17:15, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

  • We have a near-cannon source that states his ability as "Puppet master", there's no reason to doubt this - Jenx222 | U / T / C 17:23, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
    • And another near-canon source lists Peter's power as "empathic mimcry". While unlikely, there could be a typo in Doyle's power, too. AltesUTC CH

Sylar

Should we add Sylar in holders of this ability?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 11:27, 25 November 2009 (EST)

  • Yes. It was confirmed by Heroes Interactive. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:45, 25 November 2009 (EST)
    • They didn't confirm it, they say that it was SIMILAR: * In this scene, Sylar is demonstrating an ability similar to which other character?

S. Meredith T. Elle U. Doyle Reply S,T, or U.

> U

* Right on! Doyle the Puppetmaster can control the movements of others, locking them into place. (Similar doesn't mean he got puppet master.)-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 11:38, 25 November 2009 (EST)
  • Check out the discussion at Talk:Examples of puppet master. It was confirmed in a message that we don't transcribe (but I transcribed on the discussion page above because I thought it would be helpful and is significant). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:22, 25 November 2009 (EST)

Unconfirmed

Should we add Sylar's victim at the unconfirmed list of holders of this ability? (He didn't kill Eric, so there must being someone else with this ability)-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:32, 25 November 2009 (EST)

  • No, there is no evidence he took his "invasive" approach, but there is a chance he took it from eric empathicly. That's what I think since sylar asked eric if he could "control" him. This comment has been discussed before for renaming eric's ability, but I don't think anyone has thought of it as being the empathic link to doyle, both sylar and doyle wanted to be in control, so sylar would have got it from him. Chances are he got it from doyle (although speculative) but it is much more speculative to say that someone else had this ability and he killed them for it. --mc_hammark 13:40, 25 November 2009 (EST)
    • Even if he didn't kill, the person with this ability is still unconfirmed.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:42, 25 November 2009 (EST)
      • That's assuming that he got it from another person. On his page it should simply say source unknown, like Peter's page with super speed. --mc_hammark 13:46, 25 November 2009 (EST)
        • Actaully, i never got that one with peter's super speed, didn't he got it from future Daphne while fighting?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:48, 25 November 2009 (EST)
          • Empathic mimicry allows him to absorb the abilities of any evolved human around him. He was around a bystander in the future street before he was around daphne, but we don't know which one he absorbed it from. It could have even been someone we didn't see offscreen from season one or basically at any point in time, but he didn't know it and only used it when he saw daphne doing it. --mc_hammark 13:52, 25 November 2009 (EST)
            • I dont think Sylar has this ability, i read the wrong answer at the Heroes_Interactive:Thanksgiving but there still isn't really evidence. They really need to say: Sylar user Puppet master to control Angela and Peter. If we ever are able to get an interview with someone who has something to do with this ability, we should ask if Sylar got this ability-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:57, 25 November 2009 (EST)
              • My personal opinion is that it's been confirmed through a reliable avenue...but I asked Adam and Kay anyway. I worded the question in an open-ended way: "What ability did Sylar use to hold Peter and Angela at the dinner table?" -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:15, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                • So we just have to wait for an answer?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 14:22, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                  • To me it's clear Sylar has this ability. It's the same way Eric uses it - there's no doubt. --Powermimic 04:57, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                    • Adam Armus confirmed that Sylar uses TK and NOT puppet master. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:52, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                      • The way it's worded above it sounds as though he uses TK and not puppet master, but he has puppet master; the same way he has disintegration. --mc_hammark 12:17, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                        • No he hasn't (confirmed by Adam that he used TK).-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 12:20, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                          • You misunderstood me there. What I'm saying is that the way it's worded it sounds as though Adam is saying he has puppet master, but chooses to use tk. I'm not saying that he definitely does have puppet master. --mc_hammark 12:24, 30 November 2009 (EST)

Arg

The new iStory, which I thought would help clear things up about his power only seems to be making his power more confusing. He controlled a waiter, forcing him to approach their table, which seems a little too much for it to be telekinesis, yet he claims he can control the movement of the ball in the game operators sideshow, which sounds a lot like telekinesis. I'm not enjoying the whole "control the motor functions of people and objects" idea, as it doesn't seem to make any sense. What does everyone think?--PJDEP 16:32, 15 December 2009 (EST)

  • I agree, i dont like it either. But it isn't TK, i bet he cant slice open someone's skull.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 16:36, 15 December 2009 (EST)
    • Would make for quite an ability name though, kinesikinesis, he "moves movement". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:16, 15 December 2009 (EST)
      • I have got to say, that's definitely my favorite ability name.--PJDEP 18:43, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Puppetting

Doyle more or less explicitly calls his ability this in the latest GN (Starting Over). He corrects Joseph on the use of it when he calls him a "controller". Since it's the same rank as the Assignment Tracker, it's an equally valid name as Puppet Master (and lacks all the problems about whether we add a "y"). We can use either one, so what do people prefer? Swm 10:22, 29 December 2009 (EST)

  • Puppeting. Far more better name for this ability.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 10:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • Honestly, they're both equally flawed. "Puppet master" may have a grammatical error but "puppeting" isn't even a real word. I'd rather stick with puppet master.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • Also, it didn't seem like he was saying his ability name but rather describing the process, like how Claire calls her power "healing" occasionally. An explicit name given in an assignment tracker is better then one given colloquially.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • If you're gonna say it "isn't even a real word" then that argument is out. Before Steven King invented the word, pyrokinesis was never used before, but now it's in the dictionary. If the workers at Heroes decide to give a brand new word as an ability name, then that's the one we use. --mc_hammark 10:33, 29 December 2009 (EST)
          • That's different, pyrokinesis was created by combining the word pyro (fire) and kinesis (movement), keeping in tradition with names like "telekinesis" or "psychokinesis". Puppeting appear to be a spelling mistake, or just a result of an informal conversation. Also, pyrokinesis doesn't show up in many dictionaries, just a few (for example, my computer seems to insist that it isn't a word).--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:48, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • Puppet master is also a colloquial name, surely? It's more of a title for Doyle then saying anything at all about the ability (much like Bliss and Horror). It didn't read to me like it was a description, because why bother correcting Joseph if it wasn't something specific? Swm 10:35, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Also, what if, since this is the official site of heroes, the writers decided to have a look around here and found that puppet master was one thing people were arguing about, so put it in one of the gns. --mc_hammark 10:39, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • The assignment tracker is far more accurate then a simple, casual discussion. As I said before, he may have been correcting Joseph about how the ability was described, not the ability name itself.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:48, 29 December 2009 (EST)
          • But why correct him, both understood what the ability does, what would be the point of the writers adding in joseph getting it wrong and doyle correcting him? --mc_hammark 10:51, 29 December 2009 (EST)
            • Not neccessarily PJ. Look at Jeremy- his AT is far less accurate then the information imparted in the conversations between him and Noah. Surely Eric knows more about his own ability then the Company does? There's no rule which states we have to use their names if others are avaliable. Controlling's also a valid description of Eric's ability (it's what he does- control people), so again, why correct him if not for the name? Unless we have a clear line as to what's an explicit name (and short of him saying "my ability is puppetry" it doesn't get more explicit than this), we'll be arguing about this forever. As far as I see it, what Doyle said is equivelent to saying "No, my ability is not controlling, its puppetting." Hence, it's explicit. Swm 10:55, 29 December 2009 (EST)
              • That's P-Dizzle. Anyway, Jeremy's ability had changed since the Company documented it, so that isn't a good comparison to use. However, as you said, both "controlling" and "puppeting" are descriptions, Puppet master was given explicitly as a name, not just a description of what he does. Also, not everything said about an ability is meant to name it, I really don't think that the writers put in that conversation to rename an ability. As I said earlier, it may have just been small talk. They may have simply wanted Doyle to correct Joseph to look like a smart-ass, similar to how I just told everyone to call me P-Dizzle. I just don't understand why, if they both have spelling or grammatical flaws, and both come from equally ranked sources (supposedly), it needs to be changed. We've gone with the assignment tracker nearly every time, I just don't understand why this situation should be different.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:04, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                • I didn't say it needed to be changed. I said we could use either, and asked what people prefer. You were claiming that Assignment Trackers are always more reliable- Jeremy's case proved that wasn't so. I said controlling was a valid description, and therefore there was no need to put in the correction if not for something else. Even if Puppeting is a description, which I doubt, so is Puppet Master, and we've been fine using that, so there's no difference here. And as I said, you can't get much more explicit then what Doyle said. We already use names that aren't "real" words (you yourself pointed out pyrokinesis wasn't on your computer), so Puppet Master's flawed and Puppeting isn't, so they aren't actually equal. My point isn't that this is a special case- I'm saying that we've got the choice of two names, and we should whichever we think is better. Nothing more. Swm 11:10, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                  • The chances of it being grammatically flawed is highly unlikely, most likely, they've invented a new word as a name. I can't ever really recall any small talk on heroes, and especially not in the graphic novels, writers are always saying they wish they could do more, so it is unlikely they would waste a panel with small talk making doyle look like a smart ass. One thing we should be noting is, it's "puppetting", not "puppeting". --mc_hammark 11:13, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                • Jeremy's case only proved that assignment trackers can become outdate, something that clearly hasn't happened with Doyle. And as for the pyrokinesis argument, that word, and others that may not be "real" words have been used in other works, "puppeting" hasn't. All I'm saying is that we should follow a precedent we created, where we use the assignment tracker name regardless of whatever sources there may be. Also, there's never been any small talk on Heroes? Ever? Also, "puppetting" is a word either, so it's not like that changes anything.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:16, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                  • Not to my recollection, no, I can't remember any small talk. And just because Heroes is the first to use this name, doesn't make it wrong. I've never before heard of an ability to control the motor functions of everything, so of course, if there's a name for it, it will be a new one. --mc_hammark 11:19, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                    • I dislike the argument that we should use the AT names "because that's what we've always done." If another name is better (if only for not having a grammatical error), and is of the same canon rank, we should use the better name, surely? Swm 11:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                      • I do believe it calls for a vote. --mc_hammark 11:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                      • There's been plenty of small talk on Heroes, more then half of Claire's conversations with Noah are nothing more then mindless banter. Puppet master isn't a description, it's explictly given as a name for the ability. "Puppeting" is undeniably as description. Also, the argument "Puppet master has a grammatical error, so puppetting is better" doesn't work because puppetting isn't even a real word.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:27, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                        • Puppet Master doesn't explictly describe anything. You don't get to what Doyle can do by simply stating "my ability is puppet master". At best, it's a very loose description. Puppetting may or may not be a description, but even if it is, that no longer matters because another descriptive name (Puppet Master) is currently in use. I repeat: Pyrokinesis, et al aren't real words either, and we don't have a problem with using those when they appear in the show's media. Why is there an issue here, then? Swm 11:32, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  • You can continue voting if you want, but I think the assignment tracker is essentially a super-canon source so the name isn't going to change. Although I would like to adjust the name too, my guess is that only an update of the assignment tracker on the AT site, or an assignment tracker appearing in an episode is going to overrule the current name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:49, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • Agreed. Additionally, in regard to Doyle's correction by saying "Puppetting, actually" is likely because "controlling" implies possibly mental control or psychological control as well. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 16:53, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • We don't know that though. "is likely" just implies speculation. --OutbackZack 17:00, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  • We only use the AT as a source for names, because we felt The Company knew far more about abilities than anyone else who were naming them. However, a case like this has never happen before. The Company's AT of the person versus the actual person. I say that since both names are nearly identical, on the same level of canon, and come from reliable sources that either name would be just fine. We can just use both names and word it as such; Puppet Master (sometimes referred to as "Puppetting"). The argument that the word isn't a real word is flaw. Remember, we document what we see, hear, or read. If that's the word that a GN writer chose to use that's a word that can and should be documented in some form or another. --OutbackZack 16:59, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • The Company was dedicated to (among other things) categorizing abilities. The Company (and thus, ATs) are substantially better sources of canon names than the users themselves. I would agree that the page should read: Puppet master (sometimes referred to as puppetting)... --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:04, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • I agree with this as well. I'm sure people feel that the current name of the ability is more of a "title" name as oppose to a "verb" name, and that "puppetting" would do away with such problem. Personally, I'm happy with the current state of the article since your edit, but I wouldn't oppose the renaming of the ability. --OutbackZack 17:13, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • OutbackZach is not not completely correct... we were told that the assignment tracker entries were carefully reviewed by the producers before being published, so we trust them more as a source for that reason too. That the Company knew about abilities was also a reason, but it was not the main reason. On a different note, the AT has before overruled what a person called their ability... it depends on the canonicity level of the source, though... see the related gravitational manipulation discussion. Regarding adding 'puppetting' as an alias/redirect for the ability name, I am fine with that.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • So the initial rule that we're establishing is that The Company's AT will trump the person who has the ability when giving said ability a name (as long as the ability is still the same). However, the other name should still be noted on the ability page. Correct? --OutbackZack 18:38, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Almost, it's not really a new rule. As stated in the gravitational manipulation discussion, it depends on the canonicity level and explicitness of the source. As was the case with 'lightning', an AT canNOT be trumped by the person who has the ability giving it a name even if it is true both that the person has explicitly named it, and that the naming was done in an episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
          • I don't understand the example of "lightning". Elle (or was Peter? or Caitlin?) called her power "lightning" in an episode but we use "electric manipulation" from the AT, but you said that in these circumstances the AT can be trumped. In the end, I think we simply give preference to anything (profiles, documents, etc) that outright name the power with something like "Ability:____________".--Referos 20:54, 29 December 2009 (EST)
            • Sorry, Referos, you are correct. I had to change can to canNOT in my above comment. Please forgive my typo... Both 'vortex generation' and 'lightning' were names changed by the release of assignment tracker profiles. Vortex generation was an easy decision because the name was derived from a description, and the assignment tracker was an explicit naming. The lightning situation was tougher, cause the ability had been explicitly called lightning by characters in an episode. And although I disagreed with the decision, it was decided to use 'electrical manipulation' over 'lightning' because we had confirmation from TPTB that the assignment tracker was being reviewed by the producers, making it a super-canon/bible-like source.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:10, 29 December 2009 (EST)
              • I don't remember Elle ever calling her ability lightning. I remember Caitlin calling it "a thousand volts", but that's all. We got "lightning" from Peter, who used that word to "summon" the ability in "Petrified Lightning". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:43, 30 December 2009 (EST)
                • I'm not sure Elle ever did call it lightning, either. However, I'm rather certain it was called lightning aloud in at least one episode... I think Peter called it lightning when talking with Caitlin, not sure of that, but it doesn't really matter at this point.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2009 (EST)
  • I agree that "puppet master" should be kept, since it was used to outright name the ability. But just a hypothetical example, for curiosity's sake: suppose that Doyle had said "My ability is called 'puppetting'.". How would we proceed?--Referos 19:21, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • See my above comments.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • Miami, this is just a query, but if the name won't be changing anytime soon can we remove the rename tag?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • I think it stays up for at least a few days so everyone will have a chance to give their input. --OutbackZack 22:41, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Since there's an unofficial poll going on, I think it's okay to keep the tag up a few more days. Many people are on vacation for the winter holidays and haven't had a chance to comment.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)

Puppetting VS Puppet Master

Puppetting

  1. --mc_hammark 11:26, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  2. --Catalyst · Talk · HL 11:32, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  3. --Swm 11:34, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  4. --Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs | 11:36, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  5. --Hiroman 16:59, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  6. --Leckie -- Talk 12:16, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  7. --Boom D  53  12:35, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  8. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 16:19, 29 December 2009 (EST) it's more elegant.
  9. --Juba 23:28 29 December (CET) it's what he does v. what he is...
  10. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:55, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  11. --NileQT87 19:50, 29 December 2009 (EST) - Ditto with "what he does vs. what he is". I prefer puppetry (which is even more correct). Puppetting is certainly better than a description of the person instead of the ability. Actually, "puppetting" isn't really a very standard word (Firefox's dictionary doesn't recognize it)--more standard English words are "puppeteering" or "puppetry" ("puppetry" being the only word recognized)! Sometimes basic logic must trump characters speaking in completely slang terms. It's the same thing with the fact that psychometry is in no way the same thing as clairsentience (also, episode beats evolutions) on purely definition terms. Sometimes the dictionary's description of an action that utterly predates the show supersedes some character's slang.
    It was originally going to be puppettry, but I pointed out that if we couldn't change "puppet master" to "puppet mastery", we can't change "puppetting" to "puppetry".--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    Nearly everything in your argument supports using "puppet master" as opposed to "puppetting". Doyle is not exactly an "expert source". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  12. --daevon 21:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  13. --Evil Maldini 16:14, 30 December 2009 (EST)
  14. --Fr0z3nB0nes 5:46, 31 December 2009 (EST): I would prefer Puppeteering rather that puppetting, but it is better than puppet master.
  15. --Darkfiremaster13 00:52, 2 January 2010 (EST)
  16. --Gibbeynator 07:34, 6 January 2010 (EST)
  17. ----ERROR 21:30, 15 January 2010 (EST) For all reasons stated above. Also, I wouldn't use a canon source that has poor grammar. I would use a variation of it, like "puppetry," "puppetting," or "puppeteering."

Puppet Master

  1. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:27, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  2. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:07, 29 December 2009 (EST) (for two reasons. 1) ATs have always been assumed a "slightly higher" level of canon than the other near-canon sources. 2) "Puppetting, technically" can still be a reference to his ability as "puppet master(y)". He wouldn't say "Puppet mastering, technically".)
  3. ---- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 17:44, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  4. ATs give scientific names for abilities. Monica's ability was named both muscle mimicry and adoptive muscle memory in the episodes, but we use AMM because it was given by Mohinder, a scientist. And "puppetting" is a description. AltesUTC CH 06:44, 30 December 2009 (EST)

How I believe this ability works

I noticed that a lot of people don't like this ability because it can't be explained. I further noticed somewhere that someone called it a "magical" power. Here's my 2 cents. As I understand it from the AT profile diagram, Doyle can attach "mental strings" to people and objects. With those strings he can push and pull things, like pull a door shut, or push someone's hands together. That's what you do when you play with a puppet, you push (or ease) the strings or pull them to make the puppet do something. With that said, nowhere would the ability allow him to pin someone up against the wall, slice someone's head open, or make things fly around. Hence why it's so different from telekineses. Now if you wanted to speak in terms of evolution theory for the ability; it's possible that over the thousands of years that this ability evolved from telekineses. Which is why they're somewhat similar. --OutbackZack 14:28, 31 December 2009 (EST)

  • That's actually a pretty good explanation Zack, I'm impressed. He'd have to be able to curve these strings, however, in order to close the door like he did in Nowhere Man. That's plausible though, and I'm glad someone finally came up with a logical explanation.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:47, 31 December 2009 (EST)
    • I also think thats a pretty good explanation. Only, I think telekinesis would have evolved from this rather than the other way round, as it allows full mental manipulation rather than by only mental strings.--Fr0z3nB0nes 21:40, 31 December 2009 (EST)
      • The reason I had it the other way around is because Puppet Master comes off as a more a well defined ability. Whereas telekineses is all over the board. I actually figured that some of the genes for telekineses might be present in flight, levitation, disintegration, Trevor's ability, etc. Again, it's just good'o fan boy theories. --OutbackZack 14:11, 1 January 2010 (EST)
  • One inconsistency, how did he make Michael activate his lasers if he creates mental strings?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:20, 6 January 2010 (EST)
    • I'm sure there's he could pulled to make it go off. Something biological. --OutbackZack 20:33, 6 January 2010 (EST)
      • You just gave me an image of a pull-string (the kind you pull on dolls to make them talk) in the back of Michael's brain. In all seriousness however, I suppose he could have lassoed an electrical impulse or something.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:36, 6 January 2010 (EST)

Doubt

Nothing conclusive, but the last two episodes seem to imply that Sylar doesn't have puppet master. My reason for this is, after he arrived at the carnival and started to cut Samuel, Samuel says "You could have killed Doyle, you didn't" and Sylar responds "Oh, I'll get to him...." and then makes references to a feast and how the carnies will make him more powerful. He may have simply wanted to kill Doyle for the hell of it, but when combined with the feast reference, it seems like he wants to acquire Doyle's ability, which would obviously be redundant if he already had it. Again, nothing that totally excludes Sylar from this ability, but definitely something to consider.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:23, 5 January 2010 (EST)

  • I don't think thats the reason for killing doyle, i personally think he has pm, altought i'm not saying it is so!

But its like you said, its hard to know what he has :p with all the commotion around his ability. -- (WaterRatj) 21:09, 6 January 2010 (EST)

Motion Manipulation

Looks like a better name to me :P --Ritamiller 14:19, 7 January 2010 (EST)

Kinesikinesis...--ERROR 21:33, 15 January 2010 (EST)

I said that last month, but only as a joke, please do not use it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:34, 16 January 2010 (EST)

Creations

Guys, we have a near-canon source for puppet master and a near-canon description for puppetting. Stop trying to invent new names for the ability, we're not overturning near-canon sources for them. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:23, 12 January 2010 (EST)

  • I think we may need a new template on the top of all of the discussion pages for abilities that asks the user to examine the naming conventions and why the current name was chosen before suggesting new name changes.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:28, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Any chance of a rename?

It hasn't been discussed for a while and I've been curious about the rename tab on the ability name. So..any chance of a rename for the ability to either 'Puppetting' or 'Puppet Mastery'? Or would all prefer to let it stay the same? Nobody seems interested anymore for a rename.--Realistic

  • If we look at the poll above "Puppetting" have more votes, so if we'll change the name I think it would be "Puppetting". But if we're still basing on AT it will stay the same --Dark Master 07:01, 31 January 2010 (EST)
    • We use the name that was explicitly given to us. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:51, 31 January 2010 (EST)
      • And that is...Puppet Master or Puppetting? Both seems to be explicitly-given enough--Realistic

Heat generation

Ok. I've figured out a way we can re-name it to puppet mastery. Mrs Comey listed next to "heat generator". From this canon source we derived that her ability is "heat generation". Eric is listed next to "puppet master". So, given that we can derive "heat generation" from "heat generator", why can't we derive "puppet mastery" from "puppet master"? --mc_hammark 13:15, 1 March 2010 (EST)

  • I was just thinking the same when I was looking at Edgar's list. It would definitely be a better name!--Imax99 15:35, 1 March 2010 (EST)
  • Because the current name was given explictly, and Mrs Comey has no contradicting source. The fact is, if they wanted to call the ability "puppet mastery", they would have done so.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:37, 1 March 2010 (EST)
    • I actually have another point but I'll refrain from saying it, lest I incur the wrath of the Heroes Wiki community....--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:41, 1 March 2010 (EST)
      • No, no, please, tell us. We promise to be gentle. --mc_hammark 18:31, 2 March 2010 (EST)
  • This ability has been explicitly named "puppet master" in the Assignment Tracker 2.0 field for "Unique Ability" section. It has been explicitly named in this diagram. It was named the same thing in Edgar's list. I don't know of any place where it was called "puppet mastery". If there is a place, it is certainly not as explicit as any of the three places we have seen it consistently named the same thing. I personally prefer the name "puppet mastery", but it's not about my personal preference. The name "puppet master", for whatever reason the writers have chosen, has been given to us on a number of occasions, and it's the name we should use. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:17, 4 March 2010 (EST)
    • We can derive heat generation from heat generator then?--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 00:57, 4 March 2010 (EST)
      • Edgar's list is a mix of names of abilities, descriptions of abilities, and descriptions of people. If, say, and Assignment Tracker were to be released about Mrs. Comey, and it were to name her ability "heat generator" (Lord help us!), then that's what we would call her ability. But since we have no other source for the name of her ability, we can use logic to say that "heat generator" refers to Mrs. Comey and not her ability. I wish we could do the same for Doyle's ability, but we can't. We've been given an explicit name for his ability in two other places, and we've never been given another explicit name for it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:27, 4 March 2010 (EST)
        • Right, right. I just wanted to make sure I didn't make a mistake when I renamed her ability.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 17:09, 4 March 2010 (EST)

"Puppet Master" just seems like a undeveloped form of telekinesis now that it moves objects.--Boycool42 21:39, 14 March 2010 (EDT)

  • Someone came up with a theory that it was like "string telekinesis"; Doyle attaches mental strings to pull them about (like a puppet master, get it? :P)--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 21:40, 14 March 2010 (EDT)
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