Talk:Healing touch

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources	Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources	Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources	Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities	Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities	Descriptions
6. Possessor's name	If no non-speculative description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine healing touch's name.
Source/Explanation
.

Summary

Ok, I feel we are not arriving anywhere with this discussion, so I will summarize the main points so that we can proceed in a more focused way.

• We were given three possible canon names from the episodes: "total life control", "life and death" and "healing touch". All three were explicitly given (i.e, are not based on descriptions), but "healing touch" is perhaps the most explicit as it was used to outright name Jeremy's ability in an Assignment Tracker.

• The Assignment Tracker (and hence "healing touch") might be an unreliable source since the Company thought that Jeremy could only heal.

• Our naming conventions suggest that names for abilities should cover all aspects of the ability. This would discard "healing touch". However, it is possible to have exceptions to this rule (see telescopic vision for instance).

• There has been much discussion on how abilities evolve and how we split/merge abilities with different/similar aspects. We have in the wiki both examples of not merging abilities (for instance, precognitive dreaming and precognition) and examples of not splitting abilities (for instance, Tracy's ability or the different versions of enhanced strength). So, we should treat each case separately. Let's focus on discussing Jeremy's ability only.

• "Life and death" doesn't sound like a proper ability name. This is a minor issue as having an accurate and non-speculative canon name is more important.

I think the main point is discussing whether or not to apply the "must cover all aspects" rule. If we do, Jeremy's ability is split from healing and becomes either "life and death" or "total life control". If we don't, we keep things as they are. And, please, let's discuss only Jeremy's ability; issues like Tracy or enhanced strength are actually debatable and should be kept to their appropriate talk pages or this will become a mess again. --Referos 20:44, 1 December 2009 (EST)

• What makes this name less accurate then something like telescopic vision is that the additional effect of Jeremy's ability isn't just not mentioned by "healing touch", it's the complete opposite of healing. After all, if Flint had developed the ability to manipulate water as well as fire, would we keep his ability as pyrokinesis just because he has an assignment tracker saying so?--PJDEP 22:24, 1 December 2009 (EST)
  • It seems pretty clear that the company just didn't have enough info on his ability. Ishi and Linderman can be kept as "healing touch", but Jeremy , Peter, and the Chinese woman need to be split. And while "Life and death" may not sound like a ability name, it's canon.--Ratclaws 23:08, 1 December 2009 (EST)
    • "Puppet master" does not sound remotely like an ability name, and it's used. Not to mention "Activation and deactivation," which is another ability that deals with extremes. If we can't come up with a better name for that, then I doubt we'll get a better name than "Life and death" (which is, again, canon). Whatever we decide to call it, it is clear Jeremy's ability is different. And I've said it before, but I'll say it again: We have no proof that Ishi or Linderman could kill with their ability, so saying that their ability is the same as Jeremy's is speculative. Hiro and Rachel can both teleport, but it is clear they do not have the same ability, nor do we list them as such. Just because abilities have some of the same results (teleporting, healing) does not in any way mean the abilities are the same. --Skullman1392 23:32, 1 December 2009 (EST)
      • If were going to use "Life and Death" just because Noah said that "Jeremy can control life and death", then we should also change "Cloning" into "Multiplying" because Lauren said that "Eli was a Multiplier" --Darkfiremaster13 23:57, 2 December 2009 (EST)
        • I'm not saying "Life and death" is necessarily the name we should use, but that shouldn't be an issue right now. I say for now, we remove Jeremy, Peter, and the Chinese woman, and give them their own ability page. We can discuss what to name their ability there. --Skullman1392 02:07, 3 December 2009 (EST)
        • Also the cloning page has been nominated for a spilt into cloning and multiplying, so that's probably not the best example to use.--PJDEP 02:11, 3 December 2009 (EST)
• "Life and death" was a description. And as "appropriate" as it may sound, a description loses to an explicit name given ("healing touch"). The reason we use "puppet master", despite it not "sounding like an ability name", was because it was explicitly stated. Puppet Master stayed, Healing Touch must stay. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 00:34, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • I agree that this page should stay "Healing touch" but I in no way agree that Healing touch is Jeremy's power. And descriptions are used all the time to name abilities.--Skullman1392 00:58, 3 December 2009 (EST)
    • Only when explicit names are not given. Which is not the case here. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 01:02, 3 December 2009 (EST)
      • How is "life and death" not an explicit name? Noah said "Dual ability: life and death". Yes, it's not smooth, but it's even more explicit than, say, "Bliss and horror, my father's tools" and we use that as an explicit source for Guillame's ability. I can understand that "healing touch" could take priority since it was outright named in the Assignment Tracker, but I don't agree that "life and death" is a mere description of the ability.--Referos 06:48, 3 December 2009 (EST)
      • I'm saying that Jeremy's ability is not "Healing touch" and therefore his ability was never given an explicit canon name. --Skullman1392 01:05, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • Puppet master is a different case, it describes all of the effects the ability has. However, healing touch is not appropriate considering that Jeremy was able to kill with the ability, something that is the exact opposite of killing. Assignment tracker or not, this is a special case.--PJDEP 01:53, 3 December 2009 (EST)
    • I agree entirely with PJDEP's analogy about Flint and water control. We would not keep the name Pyrokinesis in such a case because the power becomes far, far more then that, incompassing the opposite of the original name. Jeremy's case is exactly the same- healing touch does not cover all applications of his ability, and it's not the most accurate name possible (Life and Death is, for me). This is why Jeremy and Peter should be moved, and Tracy's ability moved from Freezing to something else entirely. Swm 12:16, 4 December 2009 (EST)
• I still think there are strong arguments to justify a split, but I think we reached a stalemate; perhaps we could try asking a writer whether or not Jeremy's ability can be considered the same as Ishi's and Linderman's?--Referos 11:03, 6 December 2009 (EST)
  • I don't think it's really neccesary, but that might be a good idea. --Skullman1392 12:41, 6 December 2009 (EST)

"Life control" doesn't fit, because it implies Jeremy was able to revive dead - give life, but he wasn't. And besides, healing isn't giving life. Noah was incorrect here... So the name should stay as "healing touch". AltesUTC CH 11:42, 6 December 2009 (EST)

• How does it make any logical sense that someone who has the ability of "Healing touch" can kill with their ability? It doesn't! Therefore, this needs to be split. --Skullman1392 12:41, 6 December 2009 (EST)
  • Because that's the name his ability was given. How does it make any logical sense that someone who has the ability of "telepathy" can paint the future? Or that someone with "induced radioactivity" could create an electromagnetic shockwave? Or that someone with "poison emission" could UN-emit the poison and pull it back into themselves? These abilities have very fuzzy boundaries from the get-go. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:00, 6 December 2009 (EST)
    • Many of these have been explained and others are just plain science; with telepathy matt is able to reach a plane of consciousness that precogs use to predict the future; with induced radioactivity, isotopes are moved around the body which creates the heat ted emits, but moving these around can also cause EMPs; the poison one is the only one that hasn't been explained. --mc_hammark 13:04, 6 December 2009 (EST)
      • It is the exact opposite of healing. Why would we continue to call it "healing touch" when it is very clearly much more than that? And saying that it's "the name his ability was given" is not a not a viable answer because his "ability name" does not encompass all aspects of his ability, and is therefore majorly innaccurate and misleading. --Skullman1392 13:11, 6 December 2009 (EST)
        • But it does not matter what is implied by the name. His ability was explicitly classified as "healing touch", on the show itself. That's about as canon as it gets. Doyle's ability is still called "puppet master", despite the obvious grammatical error. The show calls it "healing touch" outright. Thus, his power is "healing touch". And as for "why should we called it _____ when it is clearly much more than that?", please note that nearly every power in the show has expanded and evolved to do far more amazing things than could be originally assumed. Telepathy is one particular very strong example. Telepathy in the classic sense is strictly reading someone's mind (not even "hearing thoughts", it is an ACTIVE task). And yet, our definition includes things that have nothing to do with telepathy (persuasion, illusion, mental manipulation, precognition). Explain how it is that "telepathy" is still an acceptable ability name despite all its additional baggage, while "healing touch" is not. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:36, 6 December 2009 (EST)
          • I was going to argue how telepathy encompasses all aspects we have shown, but I won't. We must focus on this ability. Anyway, it's true that "healing touch" was used to outright name the ability, but we can't simply ignore that "life and death" was also explicitly given! Noah wasn't describing the ability; he clearly name it when saying "He has a dual ability: life and death". Given that "life and death" has the same explicitness and canon level as "healing touch", but describes the power much better, why should we treat "healing touch" as superior? Just because it appeared in a (possibly outdated) Assignment Tracker? There's nothing in our naming conventions that state that Assignment Tracker names take priority; we just generally use them because, frequently, they are the only explicit source available. However, the naming conventions are clear that an ability name must encompass all aspects of an ability.--Referos 14:28, 6 December 2009 (EST)
            • Using the assignment trackers for ability names is just a precedent we have set, that doesn't mean it will always be the best choice. If Jeremy can kill as well as heal, the name "healing touch" is not appropriate.--PJDEP 15:30, 6 December 2009 (EST)
              • Life control can be a viable name. Jeremy heals and kills by, for the sake of argument, increasing and decreasing life in a person. He can kill because he decreases life until there is no more life, but he can't resurrect people because he can't "increase" life once there is no more life for him to increase. And in answer to the telepathy issue, everything Matt does can result from pulling and pushing thoughts, which is what telepathy does. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:15, 6 December 2009 (EST)
              • On the latest episode Peter said that Rene "The Haitian" have: power negation and memory deleting. Two ability named as one, shouldn't we do the same with Jeremy? Let's take him out of the Healing Touch page and then decide what to name on his ability --Darkfiremaster13 06:47, 7 December 2009 (EST)
                • I would like to point out that Noah said that the "previous case" of this was that the woman manifested as a healer, "but it had a flip side". Not "but it was a different power completely". It implies that this power is in fact correct, but had a darker angle as well. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:51, 7 December 2009 (EST)
                  • Noah said she was the same as Jeremy, if she manifested as healer and then grew to killing as well, it's the same as Jeremy. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:00, 7 December 2009 (EST)
                    • I agree, that was what Noah said --Darkfiremaster13 23:55, 7 December 2009 (EST)

Cannot be "Life and Death"

In rewatching Strange Attractors, Noah says:

He has... what you'd call a dual ability: life and death.

The important part here is that he says it is "what you'd call" a dual ability. This implies a description, and not an official name. If he had said "He has a dual ability: life and death." it might be a different case. However, the use of "what you'd call" defeats "life and death" as an explicit name, and thus cannot be higher canon than "healing touch". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:42, 7 December 2009 (EST)

• Agree and agree! AltesUTC CH 12:49, 7 December 2009 (EST)
  • We've used descriptive names before, and while descriptive, it gives a more comprehensible explanation to what he does, which includes the killing part. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:11, 7 December 2009 (EST)
    • Now I agree that it should not be called life and death, but I still don't like the fact it's called healing touch. Here's a good way to explain why Healing touch from the assignment tracker cannot be used. Peter has ability replication, yes? Yet Edgar called him an empath. Claude called him an empath in S1 as he had Empathic mimicry. So, does our descriptive name for his present ability, top what Edgar said he has. Yes. The reason for this is; Edgar got it wrong. Just like the company did with Jeremy. It started out as healing touch, yes I agree, but then it changed. Do you not agree that Jeremy's ability is not the same as Ishi's and Linderman's, because right now, before we decide what to call it, we should consider whether it is actually the same ability.
      • I agree --Darkfiremaster13 00:00, 8 December 2009 (EST)
        • I always wondered, how does "I met an empath" imply Peter can absorb powers? Sylar, Arthur and Linda can absorb powers, none of them is an empath. Maybe Edgar meant something else? AltesUTC CH 03:57, 9 December 2009 (EST)

Jeremy's had different limits, but could do the same thing as Linderman and Ishi. Same goes for Peter and Arthur. They could both have multiple powers, but Arthur could not take them at a distance, like Peter. --mc_hammark 13:12, 7 December 2009 (EST)

• Rachel and Hiro can both teleport, but they have different abilities. Hiro can manipulate time as well. Same applies in this case. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:27, 7 December 2009 (EST)
  • Healing Touch should be invalidated as a name for consideration anyway, regardless of the status of Life and Death. From the naming conventions: " For a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability". Does "healing touch" encompass all aspects of the ability which have been displayed? No, as it completly ignores his ability to kill with it. Hence, the name should be ruled out. Swm 13:31, 7 December 2009 (EST)
• Looking at the quote, I feel as if "dual ability" was the description, not "life and death". He may have simply just coined a phrase for any ability with two major functions and made reference to it.--PJDEP 15:44, 7 December 2009 (EST)
  • No, I don't see how this shows that "life and death" is not explicit. The way I understand it, a name is explicit given if we use it exactly as it is given, and implicit if we derived it. For example, "invisibility" from "Look Claude, I'm invisible!" is an implicit name, but the assignment tracker calling it "ability: invisibility" is explicit. Noah clearly gave the term "life and death"; we aren't creating the name from a phrase like "Jeremy can give life and can give death" or something like that, so "life and death" is an explicit name, not an implicit description. Besides, as PJDEP pointed out, "what you'd call" could easily refer to the term "dual ability".--Referos 17:53, 7 December 2009 (EST)
    • When Gretchen asked if she could see Claire's power, she asked, "See what, the healing?" But it stays as "rapid cell regeneration", taken from Chandra's files. AltesUTC CH 03:57, 9 December 2009 (EST)
      • That's not the same in that both "healing" and "rapid cell regeneration" cover all aspects of her ability. Or, they don't directly oppose the aspects of her ability. Killing with a healing touch makes little sense.--PJDEP 14:01, 9 December 2009 (EST)

Guys lets decide to split Jeremy out of the Healing Touch page first and named it Jeremy's Ability while we debated on an ability name --Darkfiremaster13 00:00, 8 December 2009 (EST)

• Thank you. I feel the same way. --Skullman1392 00:10, 8 December 2009 (EST)
• I also agree. To add to the Hiro point made above. His ability name covers the dual ability. Healing touch, however, doesn't. The source trying to be used to claim his ability as Healing Touch is OUTDATED source. I feel like we're debating if the world is flat or not. --OutbackZack 20:48, 8 December 2009 (EST)
• Well, freezing doesn't cover the water control aspect, telepathy doesn't cover painting the future etc. It is just an example of ability development. AltesUTC CH 03:57, 9 December 2009 (EST)
  • We both know that freezing is an unstable example to use at the moment with the current debate. Telepathy, even though it's very stretched, does describe how Matt is able to paint the future. --OutbackZack 09:26, 9 December 2009 (EST)
    • Not really. Telepathy is the ability to control humans' minds. Matt accesses a plane of consciousness precogs use to paint the future. The connection isn't as clear as you might believe. AltesUTC CH 09:30, 9 December 2009 (EST)
      • Never said the connection was clear. Personally I think it's the worst writing I have ever seen on the show. However, as we understand it, telepathy is anything to do with the mind and the consciousness. It's the biggest stretch, but it can still be explained within the word telepathy (even though I don't like it). Healing touch is a cut and dry term. Simple explain to me how the power to heal with touch can kill someone and I'll switch sides. Until then I believe that The Company jumped conclusions before they fully understood Jeremy's ability. --OutbackZack 10:03, 9 December 2009 (EST)
      • Also, precognition is not the opposite of telepathy, but killing is the opposite of healing touch.--PJDEP 14:01, 9 December 2009 (EST)

The word kinesis, also used as a suffix implies all types of movement or motions whether minimal or many, i.e. Pyrokinesis, an ability which can be controlled by a simple hand gesture, opening and closing of a hand, performed by Meredith who also made an inside of a shipping container extremely hot by touching it. This of course didn't require much hand motions, only a plain palm to surface touch. There are more similar example, yet just that alone is demonstrating kinesis. Now, Vita- a prefix pertaining to vitality or life is suitable in describing upon this abilty the workings of it. To heal or hurt vital organs explains the functions in accordance to the name. There are not alot of accurate titles ascribed to Jeremy's ability. Overall, I think calling it Vitakinesis justifies the means. — Mphyire 21:15, 8 December 2009 (EST)

• Please, can we NOT discuss possible names for Jeremy's ability? We kinda just said that. We need to decide to give Jeremy's ability its own page (becasue it is clearly not the same as Linderman's or Ishi's) before we can decide on a name. There are two issues here, so lets get the first one out of the way before moving on to the second one, ok? --Skullman1392 00:21, 9 December 2009 (EST)
• Also, we only create ability names if there are no canon, near-canon, or common names for the ability. It's essentially a last result. Given that we appear to have a wide variety of names to choose from that originate in higher ranking sources we cannot create our own name, as accurate as it may be.--PJDEP 00:24, 9 December 2009 (EST)
  • Even though there was a canon name "Healing Touch" it does not cover all of Jeremy's ability, and on what we saw on the series clearly it was not the same as Linderman and Ishi. On the naming convention page it says that "When a possible name for an ability appears in a canon, near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications: As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability." --Darkfiremaster13 00:01, 10 December 2009 (EST)

Guys please, lets solve a problem one at a time, this discussion will not be over because we are taking two problems at a time. --Darkfiremaster13 00:01, 10 December 2009 (EST)

• We already had a consensus, 14 wanted the split, and 4 opposed.--PJDEP 01:06, 10 December 2009 (EST)
  • Technically, only 3 opposed. Just saying :P --Skullman1392 01:47, 10 December 2009 (EST)
  • Consensus isn't simply a majority vote, it's more complicated than that. The issues raised by both sides are too substantial to either move this to "Jeremy's ability" or to end the discussion completely. The continuing discussion will help sort things out. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 01:10, 10 December 2009 (EST)
    • The issue is however, that we haven't gotten anywhere beyond "Healing touch is canon, it must stay, other ability names are misleading and we don't change them" and "Killing is the opposite of healing, it can't stay, the other abilities not as misleading." It seems like there is little more to discuss.--PJDEP 01:14, 10 December 2009 (EST)
      • There are more arguements FOR the split, one major one being that since we never saw/heard of Ishi or Linderman killing by touch through their ability, it is extremely speculative to say that they have the same ability as Jeremy. Rachel has ONLY Teleportation, unlike Hiro who has Teleportation plus Time Manipulation plus Time Travel; are they considered to have the same ability? Not at all. I do not see why we consider Jeremy to have the same ability as Linderman and Ishi. If we go by that, we might as well change Rachel's ability to "Space/Time manipulation." Oh wait, that would be extremely speculative. And yet, Jeremy still has the ability of "Healing touch"? His touch also KILLS; you know, the exact opposite of healing. We had this same problem with Matt Jr.'s ability, because it dealt with two ends of the spectrum. It was decided that 'Activation" alone did not fully cover all aspects of his ability (it only covered HALF of his ability) and therefore it was disregarded as an possible ability name. And yet Jeremy still is considered to have "Healing touch"? His current ability name does not cover all aspects of his ability, only HALF of them. Therefore, it should be disregarded, REGARDLESS of what it was called on an Asignment Tracker (that was outdated). Our naming conventions state that even if an ability is named canonicly, it must be considered if said name fully covers all aspects of the ability; if it does not, the name should be changed. It is so obvious that Jeremy's ability is different it is painful, and I see no real arguements from the opposing viewpoints other than "its a canon name." And actually, saying that Linderman, Ishi, and Jeremy all have the ability of "Healing touch" is like saying both Rachel and Hiro have the ability of "Teleportation". Does it make any sense whatsoever? No. So why, after all these reasons that are as apparent as a punch in the head, hasn't this article been split yet? It's dragged on for way longer than it's needed too. It's like pulling teeth, except we aren't getting anywhere! (God alone knows why, cause I can't figure it out) --Skullman1392 01:47, 10 December 2009 (EST)
        • Actually, it was never said Linderman and Ishi had "healing touch". AltesUTC CH 02:03, 10 December 2009 (EST)
          • That further supports a split.--PJDEP 02:06, 10 December 2009 (EST)

I would like to point out that we included Rachel and Hiro on the same page until a writer confirmed that they were separate powers. Jeremy's ability is to heal things by touch, as well as to remove health by touch. His ability is listed, by what has been considered the HIGHEST canon source in the series (The Company), as "healing touch". Everyone keeps citing the naming conventions, and how they say that names should include all aspects of the ability. However, it would appear that everyone misses the very first rule on that page, which states: If a name is given for a ability in a canon source, that name should be used, regardless of whether it is the best description or not. We have been given an explicit, canon name for this ability. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 02:55, 10 December 2009 (EST)

• The order of the rules doesn't define which one is more important or should be followed most. It just goes to show that the rules contradict each other. That's like saying A comes before B always then having a rule that says B can come before A sometimes. The rules are flawed right now and they need to addressed and fixed in order for us to settle this and many other debates. --OutbackZack 05:45, 10 December 2009 (EST)
  • For us to fix the rules, it would have to be in an order such as:
    • 1. The name must cover all aspects of the ability
      2. The name should be taken in the order Canon, Near canon, secondary, as long as this does not conflict with the first rule.
  • It would be like the 3 laws of robotics, the next one is allowed as long as it doesn't contradict any of the previous ones. --mc_hammark 13:11, 10 December 2009 (EST)
    • • haha saw I Robot last night too? I personally think setting the rules up like this would be great. --OutbackZack 13:42, 10 December 2009 (EST)
        • Are we suggesting Naming Convention Conventions? :P I think having an ordered-by-priority set of rules would be a good idea. However the rules line up from there, I'll follow suit. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:54, 10 December 2009 (EST)
          • There are rules for the naming, but there were also a guideline for it. I read it somewhere here and I like to say it again as an example: What if someone with the ability to control fire named as cryokinesis on the series that are considered as a canon, are we going to use it? Yes the first on the line of the rule was if a name from a canon was given it must be used. But it said on the guidelines that even though a name comes from a canon source the name should consider all the aspect of the ability that we have seen. Healing was appropriate for Linderman (trough touch) and Ishi (trough kiss) because we saw them heal and we didn't see them kill. On Jeremy on the other hand, Healing as they show it was only an aspect of what he can do. The description of: Rule was "An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct, especially one of the regulations governing procedure in a legislative body or a regulation observed by the players in a game, sport, or contest". While Guidelines was "A statement or other indication of policy or procedure by which to determine a course of action" --Darkfiremaster13 00:01, 12 December 2009 (EST)

Ok now...

I feel this issue has not been resolved by any means. The consensus we had was 14 people for the split and only 3 against. 8 to 1 was enough to change Toby's ability. Can we just change this one already? --Skullman1392 15:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)

• or at least get an admin's view on the matter at hand? --Skullman1392 15:17, 22 December 2009 (EST)
• The 8-to-1 was to see which of "Inflammation" and "Excruciation" was the better name, when there was little if any opposition to giving it one of the two names. This is an instance of an explicitly-named ability having its name changed, with the arguments on both sides being too large to come to a conclusion just yet. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:48, 22 December 2009 (EST)
  • And this was to see if people felt like they should be treated as the same ability, it's not about a name, it's about the very nature of the ability. Picking a name is tomorrow's problem. It was very clear that the vast majority of those who speak feel that Jeremy, and by extent Peter, didn't have the same ability as Linderman and Ishi. What that ability should be called is a matter from after this is split. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:54, 22 December 2009 (EST)
    • Sorry, that was a misleading example; I don't think Jeremy's abilty's name should be the issue, the issue is whether or not his ability is the same as Linderman's and Ishi's. --Skullman1392 15:58, 22 December 2009 (EST)
      • Yeah, I sort of misspoke as well. What I meant to imply was that the other consensus involved something with little contention on either side, whereas Jeremy's ability is the subject of some pretty heated debate. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 16:21, 22 December 2009 (EST)
        • Yet on those who spoke in the section that was archived due to the size of this talk page, 14 people were for the split and 3 were against. That's almost a 5 to 1 for the split, regardless of what the name for Jeremy's ability might be. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:44, 22 December 2009 (EST)
          • Unless we discuss an alteration of the naming conventions in a separate talk page to account for unreliable sources (like Jeremy's AT profile) and conflicts between the "must be canon" and "must cover all aspects" rules, I don't know how this discussion can proceed.--Referos 22:01, 22 December 2009 (EST)
            • I agree. The rules do contradict each other and we need to settle it. --OutbackZack 22:12, 22 December 2009 (EST)
            • This doesn't necessarily have to be about naming, the decision to seperate Jeremy from the others needs no change to occur.--PJDEP 23:24, 22 December 2009 (EST)
              • Indeed, it never should have been merged. Before Tabula Rasa aired, Linderman and Ishi's ability was called "Healing". Jeremy Greer should've been listed with "Healing touch", and Linderman and Ishi shouldn't have been merged into it. --Radicell 23:37, 22 December 2009 (EST)
  • Building off of this, does anyone have a valid argument against splitting the page? Saying that having "Healing touch" and "Healing" is redundant is not a good argument, as we have "Disintegration touch" and "Disintegration", or saying that Jeremy's ability to heal and kill would make Linderman's ability obsolete is also invalid, as we have many cases of abilities becoming obsolete (telepathy makes persuasion and illusion outdated, telekinesis makes puppet master and levitation outdated).--PJDEP 00:04, 23 December 2009 (EST)
    • The only counterargument I can think of is that these two abilities, if we consider them as different abilities, are capable of the same thing - healing others. However, seeing as there are also telepathy and illusion/persuasion/precognition, it's okay. Let's split them. AltesUTC CH 06:03, 23 December 2009 (EST)
      • Two abilities that do the same thing is merely a case of ability homology. It doesn't follow from that, that they are the same powers. I too say we should split the page. Swm 07:06, 23 December 2009 (EST)
        • I too agree with the notion to split the page. From there we can settle out the other debate. --OutbackZack 12:07, 23 December 2009 (EST)
• The "Don't Split" argument, in a nutshell:
  • The HEALING angle of Jeremy's ability is identical to the healing we saw Linderman and Ishi perform. This implies that their abilities are at least very similar, if not the same.
  • When Bennet talked about Jeremy's ability, he said that he could heal people, "but the ability evolved". Not "changed", and not "we got it wrong", and not "it was a different ability". Bennet implies that Jeremy's healing touch gained a new aspect by ability development. We haven't changed accelerated probability or ability supercharging for having an electric manipulation element, so why should this be altered because of an acknowledged development (the woman from China)? --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:57, 23 December 2009 (EST)
    • Sorry, but evolving is changing. Honestly, saying Jeremy's ability and Healing touch are the same could be wrong, but if we split them, then we are definitely not wrong, Jeremy's ability may be the same, but calling it his is not incorrect since he is a holder of it. If you see what I'm saying. --mc_hammark 13:04, 23 December 2009 (EST)
      • Exactly, Anna and the Haitian (or alternatively, Damien and the Haitian), may have the same ability, but they all have separate ability pages.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:55, 23 December 2009 (EST)
• I made a user page for Jeremy's abilty, should we just make it not a user page, and remove Jeremy and Peter from this one? I feel like just about everyone agrees on this, and if I'm correct, we would now have 15 to 2 on the consensus. (Altes agreed to the split)--Skullman1392 14:51, 23 December 2009 (EST)
  • 1. At the absolute most, we would remove everyone but Jeremy and Peter from this page, as "healing touch" is the only explicit name given to this ability in a canon setting. We cannot use the lowest-tier naming convention if we have a canon source, incomplete or otherwise. 2. Noah didn't say the Company was wrong, he said the ability evolved. Meaning the basic ability was still "healing touch", but it became more. 3. (sort of a sidenote) I do feel Anna and the Haitian have the same ability, but manifested it differently. Damien I would not agree with, only because we still don't really know just what it is his ability does. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:46, 23 December 2009 (EST)
    • What the new page will be named is irrelevant, right now, it just needs to be split. If necessary, a name change proposal can be discussed then. Splitting doesn't refute any canon sources, so there are few obstacles that should hinder it.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:53, 23 December 2009 (EST)
  • Noah also said that the Chinese woman's ability flipsided, meaning that it changed or altered itself completely.--Referos 18:03, 23 December 2009 (EST)
    • A "flipside" merely implies that there exists an aspect of the ability opposite that which they had observed before. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 18:25, 23 December 2009 (EST)
      • No offense, but that's incredibly debatable.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 18:36, 23 December 2009 (EST)
        • I find it unlikely that the killing part is a simple evolution of the healing ability. Jeremy could heal and kill before he was 20 and he had a somewhat poor control of his ability. Linderman, who had far more experience with his ability, and has been in much more stressful situations, the type of which seemed to trigger the killing part of Jeremy's ability, was never implied or alluded to be able to kill with his ability. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:43, 23 December 2009 (EST)
          • I'm alright with a split. However, there shouldn't be a debate about the names of the two abilities, especially Jeremy and Peter's: Jeremy and Peter's ability should be named "healing touch", as the name was given in a canon source. Linderman and Ishi's should be reverted to the pre-Tabula Rasa name: "Healing". --Radicell 22:06, 23 December 2009 (EST)
            • I agree with Radicell. Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs | 22:11, 23 December 2009 (EST)
              • I do not agree, but that can be debated later. I don't think Tracy's ability should still be considered Freezing, but again, that can be debated later. For now, lets just split this. --Skullman1392 01:50, 24 December 2009 (EST)
                • Done. AltesUTC CH 02:39, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Finally

Sweet, well at least that's finally settled :D Should we jump right into the next discussion we all know is coming? --Skullman1392 03:14, 24 December 2009 (EST)

• Tracy's ability? Oh, I can tell it's gonna be an epic battle! AltesUTC CH 03:33, 24 December 2009 (EST)
  • Lol, I still can't believe this actually happened.... I thought it would be trapped in purgatory forever like Trevor's ability.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:23, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Renaming to Life and death

This can't become Life and death, not only is that a horrible name like another one I could mention, but Healing touch was given in a canon source! What are everyone elses thoughts about this? -- Leckie -- Talk 08:56, 24 December 2009 (EST)

• I agree all the way. With Healing touch and Bliss and horror.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 08:58, 24 December 2009 (EST)
  • Additionally, the use of the term "life and death" was used as a description (by Noah to Tracy), not as a definition. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:40, 24 December 2009 (EST)
    • We've used descriptive names before, and "life and death" takes in consideration the killing aspect of his ability, something "healing touch" doesn't. We use bliss and horror, and Matt Jr.'s ability ended up being named activation and deactivation through consensus, the "and deactivation" being added precisely to account for the opposite effect of activation. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 09:45, 24 December 2009 (EST)
      • The difference is that "activation" wasn't given in a canon source, while "healing touch" was. --Radicell 09:49, 24 December 2009 (EST)
        • And I have mentioned this before, but activation and deactivation describes an an action, because of the 'tion. Life and death and bliss and horror doesn't sound right because it is a sort of description of the power. Say this out loud, "My ability is Life and death." and "My ability is bliss and horror." Sound right to you?--Catalyst · Talk · HL 09:55, 24 December 2009 (EST)
          • (And before anyone says it...) We got sort of pinned down to puppet master because of an assignment tracker, despite "puppet mastery" being a clearly better name. We have avoided correcting basic grammar due to a canon source. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:58, 24 December 2009 (EST)
            • Life and death is simple, it's accurate (more than "healing touch") and was actually said by some in the show, it's not like activation and deactivation, which we came up with. Suppose someone says "I have the healing touch", the last thing you expect that person to do when he touches someone is to kill them. It's like the "what if" example someone gave using Flint, pyrokinesis and water. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:00, 24 December 2009 (EST)
              • I'm not saying healing touch is the best name either. And when that person said life and death, they didnt say, "his ability is life and death." They said it to compare or describe it in an easier way. Better yet, he just mentioned the properties of the ability.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 10:04, 24 December 2009 (EST)
              • As I have mentioned above, we cannot use healing touch because it does not encompass all aspects of the ability, which is clearly stated to be a requirement in the conventions. "Healing touch" only covers half of Jeremy's power- the healing. It says nothing about the killing, so it can't be used. Life and Death is basically the only name we have that suits that convention, hence we should use it. It's also of an equal rank in the hierarchy to healing touch (both were seen in an episode) so that isn't an issue. It might not be a perfect name or even a good one, but it's the only one we've got that fits our rules. Therefore, we should use it. Swm 10:22, 24 December 2009 (EST)
                • On the other hand, telepathy doesn't say anything about seeing and painting the future, but there is a connection, although complicated, and it was explained. The same may apply to Jeremy, we just have no explanation because there's no BTE this season. :( AltesUTC CH 10:43, 24 December 2009 (EST)
                  • But with telepathy, the connection is between things that are normally unrelated, not between opposites. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:54, 24 December 2009 (EST)
                    • Exactly. Besides, Matt's ability is something of a special case, as you rightfully point out Altes. As for Jeremy, I refer again to the analogy of Flint- had his pyrokinesis allowed him to control water as well, would we keep the name pyrokinesis, even though it's clearly far more then that? I certainly think we wouldn't. Why do it here, then, given the case is exactly the same? Swm 10:55, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Health Manipulation

Just trying to brainstorm. I know some hate the "this" and "that" names so Health Manipulation came to mind. I'm not going to fight for it, but I figured it would get some creative juices flowing. Thoughts? --OutbackZack 12:48, 24 December 2009 (EST)

• It's better than the ones being considered.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 12:56, 24 December 2009 (EST)
  • I gotta admit, its better than Healing touch -- Leckie -- Talk 13:09, 24 December 2009 (EST)
    • This page shouldn't be healing touch, that name on the assignment tracker was based on Linderman's and Ishi's ability, and this page should be called Jeremy's ability just now, but the name Health manipulation is a great choice. I like it. --mc_hammark 13:12, 24 December 2009 (EST)
      • I still like "life and death" better because of its higher canon status, but "health manipulation" seems to be a viable name. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:26, 24 December 2009 (EST)
        • There's no way "health manipulation" can be a viable name; it's a descriptive name while "life and death", "life control" and "healing touch" are all canon.--Referos 13:36, 24 December 2009 (EST)
          • That's another debate in itself. Like I said, I'm not gonna fight for it, but something needs to pick that at least covers all aspects of the ability. --OutbackZack 13:45, 24 December 2009 (EST)
            • What about Life Manipulation? Again, just trying to think of something that covers all aspects of the ability. --OutbackZack 13:49, 24 December 2009 (EST)
              • The only thing I can think of is "life flow control", since Noah said that the Chinese woman could control the flow of life, giving it or taking it away.--Referos 13:51, 24 December 2009 (EST)
                • Alright, you cant take everything a character says to consideration for an ability name. "The flow of life" is just an expression as was "life and death". I am ok with either life or health manipulation. But everything someone says isn't them calling it the ability name.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 14:22, 24 December 2009 (EST)
                  • I agree on the name --Darkfiremaster13 00:49, 25 December 2009 (EST)
• I can't see why we'd use a descriptive name when we have at least two names that are from the episodes (Life and Death and Healing touch). Swm 14:34, 24 December 2009 (EST)
  • Finally Jeremy was taken out of the same page as Linderman and Ishi. I agreed on what said above Healing Touch doesn't include all aspect of Jeremy's ability even though it was from a primatech file, but I think Noah said in the episode that the ability evolved into "something else". On Life and Death, I think Noah just said it to describe what Jeremy can do to Tracy.--Darkfiremaster13 00:49, 25 December 2009 (EST)

Naming conventions

Shouldn't we discuss the issues with the naming conventions before we try to change the name of this ability? The only reason I'm suggesting this is that 90% of the arguments here have to do with previous debates over naming conventions, i.e. "Tracy's ability name was kept freezing even though it does more then that" "Matt's ability was kept telepathy even though it does more then that" "Knox/Ando/Edward's ability was kept the same, even though it does more then every other person with the ability can do" "The first rule of the naming convention says to use the highest ranking name, even if it does not explain all aspects of the ability" "Another rule says that the name should reflect everything the ability can do, and not just an aspect of this" "If we changed this, we'd have to change everything else", etc. It seems like we'd be more likely to achieve closure if we addressed the root of the problem, rather then one specific case. I'm not saying that the debates here are pointless, and we did manage to split the article, but we would avoid so much name changes and unchanges and redirects and archiving if we simply discussed the source. Just an idea.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:43, 24 December 2009 (EST)

• Although I agree about the naming conventions and about tracy's ability, I have to disagree about matt. His telepathy does explain how he can paint the future. --mc_hammark 14:45, 24 December 2009 (EST)
  • I wasn't necessarily saying that it doesn't, I was simply using an example of something that is the subject of debate among our community. For now at least, my comment is complete neutral on all of the aforementioned cases.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:49, 24 December 2009 (EST)
• Completely agree. No matter what, the naming conventions will have to be revisited independently of what happens here: if we keep Jeremy's ability as "healing touch", it means that the "must cover all aspects rule" is in fact void and must be removed. On the other hand, if this is renamed, it means that the accuracy of a name is more important than its canon level. Given that this will be also crucial to solve issues like Tracy, it will be more productive to discuss the naming conventions first.--Referos 14:56, 24 December 2009 (EST)
• Agreed. It would solve so many other issues, or at least lead to their resolutions. --Skullman1392 14:58, 24 December 2009 (EST)
  • Since we're first and foremost an encyclopedia, I believe we must prioritize accuracy over canon source. We should first see which are the names that cover all aspects of the ability, and then see which is the most canon of them. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:04, 24 December 2009 (EST)
    • I agree with Empath about what should take precedence (and I also think the need for clarification obvious, from what's transpired here). Our goal should be to be as accurate as possible. Part of that is picking the most accurate name for the character's abilities, even if that means not being as canonically accurate as possible. Swm 15:19, 24 December 2009 (EST)
      • • We need to take this discussion to the Naming Conventions discussion page. I'll start it and we'll continue from there.--OutbackZack 15:22, 24 December 2009 (EST)
    • A reminder that Heroes Wiki is not an encyclopedia. It's a wiki that chronicles the series, and so shouldn't be treated like a Wikipedia. --Radicell 22:13, 24 December 2009 (EST)
      • And by extension, our goal is to chronicle what has been given to us from Heroes -- and not necessarily what is most accurate. --Radicell 22:14, 24 December 2009 (EST)
• Click here to continue the discussion where it would count most. --OutbackZack 15:28, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Keep at Healing Touch

It was given an explicit canon name. If you guys aren't ready to change Freezing or Puppet Master, you shouldn't change Healing Touch. If the naming conventions need work then disscuss changing them, rather than trying to fix each ability name one at a time. --Piemanmoo 16:36, 25 December 2009 (EST)

• Yes, we are discussing possible changes to the naming conventions.--Referos 16:48, 25 December 2009 (EST)
  • That logic doesn't work when you realise that Freezing probably should be changed as well. If Samuel's ability evolved to let him control fire as well, would you keep the name Terrakinesis? There already is a discussion on the naming conventions, but one of them as they are clearly states that an ability name must cover all aspects of a power. Healing touch doesn't do this with Jeremy, so it can't be used as a name here. Swm 16:54, 25 December 2009 (EST)
    • The show called it "healing touch", and the job of this wiki is to chronicle the show, not correct it. While the naming conventions are being edited, the current ones are in effect, and "healing touch" is what this ability should be called. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 22:56, 25 December 2009 (EST)
      • However, there is also a motion to call Linderman's ability "healing touch" (a motion that you started, I believe). Since we have decided that Jeremy and Linderman have different abilities, they cannot have the same name.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 23:34, 25 December 2009 (EST)
        • I agree on what PJDEP said, and beside Noah said on the same episode "a canon" that an ability could evolved into "something" else --Darkfiremaster13 00:24, 26 December 2009 (EST)
        • I don't recall us deciding they are distinct powers. We decided to separate them such that, until we can decide whether or not they are the same, the term "Jeremy's ability" would still be correct in the meantime. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:06, 26 December 2009 (EST)
          • Noah technically said in the episode that the ability evolved into something else and that the company mistakenly named the ability, right? --Darkfiremaster13 06:50, 29 December 2009 (EST)
            • He did say it evolved into "something different" (which does imply that originally, it was just healing touch). However, he never said the Company named it wrong. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  • You guys are missing the point. I'm saying that if Jeremy's ability was split from healing touch, why wasn't Tracy's ability split from freezing? We don't have freezing listed as being just James Walker and Sylar, and Tracy's ability on it's own page. But we're doing bascialy the same thing for this page. Why the double standard? As long as Tracy is listed as freezing, Jeremy should be listed as Healing Touch. If you want to discuss changes to the naming conventions and so forth, I'm all for it be my guest. But until that discussion is complete we must keep this at healing touch. --Piemanmoo 01:12, 26 December 2009 (EST)
    • Then we would likely have to move Edward out of accelerated probability, Matt Parkman out of telepathy, etc. The writers have told us that abilities manifest in different ways. Not every ability is uniquely manifested. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:06, 26 December 2009 (EST)
      • No, we wouldn't. Edward's ability was considered different than accelerated probability until a writer confirmed that he had the same power as his son, but that it manifested differently because it was tampered with. Same with telepathy/precognition; for some time we considered that Parkman had two abilities until the writers said otherwise. The point is: it's okay not to split abilities if there's confirmation that they are the same, but to do so in cases like freezing, with no confirmation given, is much more problematic.--Referos 09:20, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • I agree, and beside (hope it's alright) Professor X of X-men can also read minds, control people, push thoughts into someone, he can even stops peoples movement in the movie, but he was still called a Telepath. --Darkfiremaster13 00:43, 1 January 2010 (EST)

Another case of Original vs. Current

Okay, I'm about to pull the biggest flip-flop in recent memory, but in watching Tabula Rasa again, the way Noah speaks about how Jeremy's ability changed is pretty key. The exact quote is that it "evolved... into something very different". We don't have any cases on the wiki of any NATURALLY changing abilities that can be considered separate (the only ones we have as far as I know are empathic mimicry to ability replication and Mohinder's ability to enhanced strength), but I think it might be possible that the following would be true:

1. Daniel Linderman's ability, Ishi Nakamura's ability, and Jeremy Greer's original ability are all one: healing touch.
2. Jeremy Greer's current ability is in fact something else (possibly "life transferal", in contrast to age transferal).

I'd say at this point I'm willing to submit that the abilities are different (but still similar -- think telepathy vs. illusion), but I feel the way the ability evolution is addressed, that Jeremy has had an ability become a completely different ability. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:41, 26 December 2009 (EST)

• Hmmm... possible, but I think it is more likely his ability was always the ability to heal and kill, he simply couldn't access the killing part at a young age. The same way Tracy's ability was always complete water manipulation, but she could only acces the freezing aspect of it before she was shot. This is a more common theme than complete ability changing, and considering the relation of his "two abilities" (he can heal with both) this seems much more likely. --Skullman1392 05:14, 26 December 2009 (EST)
  • Good theory. However, it's difficult to prove, because the situation you describe isn't any different, visually, from what Skullman describes. It's impossible to tell whether the killing was in him all along and he couldn't access it, or whether his power actually changed. Though Skullman's theory fits better with what we've seen on the show so far, it does bring up an interesting question, however- if an ability changes by a large enough degree, is it still the same ability? One might argue Doyle's Puppet Master power has become Telekinesis, as he can move more then just people since Nowhere Man. I certainly think it's possible for one ability to effectively become another. That's not to say it merely encompasses all elements of another power (Telepaths can do everything people with persuasion can do, but Telepathy =/= Persuasion), but rather that it actually is a different power. The clearest case of this would be a scenario where somebody lost an attribute of a power (say a Jeremy who could no longer heal people). But again, how would this be different from a case where that part of the power was still there, but couldn't be accessed? I think it's possible, but I don't know how you'd actually recognise it if it happened. Swm 06:24, 26 December 2009 (EST)
• I've been thinking about this ability too, and the more I think about it the more I believe that all three healers (Linderman, Ishi and Jeremy) all had the same ability. This is entirely speculation, but if you think about it, unless Linderman's ability had a mind of its own, he should have been able to kill as well. He "cured" his mother's cancer, which most likely involved him eradicating her tumors. He reduced the amount of cells in her body. If he could do that, it isn't to much of a leap to say he could reduce cell matter elsewhere, whether it be blood or brain tissue, both things that would kill a person. And even if his ability limited him to killing cancer cells only, not normal cells, he could have increased cell matter in someone's arteries the same way he increased cell matter to repair Heidi's spinal column, which is something else that could potentially be fatal.

Of course, all of the above is assuming that "normal" healing could be controlled, and wasn't simply limited to touching a person and automatically healing whatever problem was wrong with them. But, given that the writers have never touched upon that before, it could go either way. Peter never killed with the ability, he only used it to heal, only wanted it to heal. Does anyone else think it would be weird for the writers to create a whole new power for a character that would die an episode later when Peter could have used the "original" healing to the same effect?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:56, 26 December 2009 (EST)

• Hmm, saying that Jeremy's original ability was "healing touch" and his current ability is now something else solves the issue, I think. But if your ability is recorded in your DNA, you need to alter your genes to change you ability, so I'm not fully comfortable with saying that Jeremy's power evolved into a new one. Still, it's better than saying he has the same ability as Ishi and Daniel.--Referos 11:00, 27 December 2009 (EST)

Life-Force Manipulation

Jeremy first can heal and have "Life-Force Projection" that was named as "Healing Touch" by the company. But as he grows-up he begins to have "Life-Force Absorption" were he doesn't project life but absorbs it and killing the victim. I found this ability description on one site:

• Life-Force Projection/Absorption is the superhuman ability to psychically absorb and/or return the vitality of subjects. The first faculty of this ability entails Life-Force Absorption or Power Drain, which can leave a foe fatigued to the point of extreme overexhaustion. One with this ability could eventually absorb enough life-force to kill foes and/or return oneself to full vitality. However, this ability is also accompanied by the ability Life-Force Projection or Power Transfer, in which one could restore enough life-force to rejuvenate vitality of those who are tired or nearly-dead, or to resurrect recently-dead (intact) subjects.

If you combine both we can have Life-Force Manipulation. This makes sense since he can't revive his parents since they are dead for a long time, but he revives Peter who died a few seconds later. --Darkfiremaster13 00:55, 1 January 2010 (EST)

• I think this is the best option yet.--Evil Maldini 07:14, 1 January 2010 (EST)
  • No. If we are given canon names that could describe an ability, we must use these; we cannot invent our own names.--Referos 10:07, 1 January 2010 (EST)
    • I think that is why there are discussions on the naming convention because of the canon name that doesn't describe the whole ability itself. --Darkfiremaster13 00:16, 2 January 2010 (EST)
      • Yes, but both "life and death" and "life flow control" accurately explain all the aspects of Jeremy's ability, so we don't need to create any name ourselves.--Referos 09:11, 6 January 2010 (EST)
        • If were going to use "Life Flow Control" I'm not going to be against it, but "Life and Death"? if were going to base a name from what a character have said then let's also change "Cloning" into "Multiplying" since it was also said by a character and accurately explains too, as I see now "Cloning" was not even nominated for a name change. --Darkfiremaster13 01:25, 7 January 2010 (EST)
          • Cloning was nominated to be renamed to "Multiplying", but Julien's Assignment Tracker called the ability "cloning" and we treat the ATs as A Bible That Cannot Be Contested.--Referos 09:23, 7 January 2010 (EST)
            • Ok, yeah I see Cloning nominated for a name change last year after the episode were Lauren said "multiplier". But I'm still against "Life and Death", "Life Flow Control" was fine for me though. --Darkfiremaster13 06:11, 8 January 2010 (EST)

why the move?

I've not seen the episodes yet, but was this named in either of the two, or did we reach a consensus or something, or did the user just move it without any discussion based on what they thought? Agin, I've not seen the episodes yet so just a yes is necessary if it is a legit move, thanks. --mc_hammark 13:39, 5 January 2010 (EST)

• The ability itself was not shown in either episode, so I'm fairly certain that the move is not legitimate. I think it may be some vigilante who took it upon himself to "improve" the wiki. However, even if may have missed something, there should still be some type of discussion before a move.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:19, 5 January 2010 (EST)
  • I think it was a vigilante, the name it was given can do many things not just to control life, but we only saw him heal and kill. And I agree there should be some discussion before a move like what we did on the other. --Darkfiremaster13 02:38, 6 January 2010 (EST)

Unofficial poll

Sorry to do this, but I've seen this unofficial poll everywhere in this wiki (on pages that was nominated for name change)

Healing Touch (The name given by the company)

1. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 08:40, 9 January 2010 (EST)
2. --Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs | 08:52, 9 January 2010 (EST)
3. --TanderixUTCR 16:29 (Italy), 9 January 2010 (EST)
4. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:33, 9 January 2010 (EST) (I'm also okay with Life and Death and Jeremy's ability)

Life and Death

1. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:38, 9 January 2010 (EST)
2. --Jenx222 | U / T / C | <inlcudeonly>08:00, 7 January 2012 (EST) 15:50, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Life Flow Control

1. --Leckie -- Talk 13:09, 9 January 2010 (EST)
2. --Hiroman 19:56, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Life Transferal

Health Manipulation

1. --Catalyst · Talk · HL 08:52, 9 January 2010 (EST)
2. --Leckie -- Talk 13:09, 9 January 2010 (EST)
3. --ERROR 20:28, 20 January 2010 (EST) - I like this one best, because it describes the ability in full, "life flow control" sounds a little unprofessional, and "life and death" is just a description. "Life transferal" and "life force control" both fit the bill, too, but like Intuitive Empath said, Peter's exhaustion could just be due to overuse, so life transferal is speculative. Health manipulation does, however, imply Jeremy could cause minor health problems, but Peter demonstrated the ability to heal all but those problems, and as the ability has that discussion-triggering flipside, it logically follows that those health problems could be inflicted, too.

Life-Force Manipulation

1. --Darkfiremaster13 23:53, 8 January 2010 (EST)
2. --Scorvi12 08:47, 9 January 2010 (EST)
3. --Catalyst · Talk · HL 08:52, 9 January 2010 (EST) Either one of the two is fine by me.
4. --Hiroman 19:56, 9 January 2010 (EST) Either this or my other choice is ok by me.
5. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:38, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Why it couldn't be Healing touch

The name given to Jeremy's ability by the Company is an outdated name. They called it as they saw it and not what it became. That's like calling A "A", but when it turns to B, you want to keeping calling it "A". If someone can give me another reason why we should keep it as Healing touch besides the canon argument, I'm willing to let up. --OutbackZack 13:02, 9 January 2010 (EST)

• I'm fine with "healing touch", "life and death" and "Jeremy's ability". As long as it's one of those three I won't complain. I wouldn't necessarily reject "healing touch" just because it doesn't encompass the entire ability however, we did the same with Tracy, so unless we're willing to change precedence for all (which is something I haven't really formulated a strong opinion for or against), we shouldn't make an exception for one.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 13:10, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  • With the second part you said, I think it would be difficult to use one current issue to support or argue against the other. Only because there's no way both can be resolved at the same time. With that said, one issue will have to be solved before the other. --OutbackZack 14:38, 9 January 2010 (EST)
    • PJDEP, does that mean you'd be opposed to all the other names proposed? -- Leckie -- Talk 15:27, 9 January 2010 (EST)
      • Yes, why?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:34, 9 January 2010 (EST)
• The prime concern is that it may be an extension of the same ability, not a different one. And because there is not enough evidence to overrule the ability name given by the Company, "healing touch" is still a valid option. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:11, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  • What about what Noah said, and this isn't a direct quote but close to it, "it evolved into something entirely different"--OutbackZack 14:38, 9 January 2010 (EST)
    • I believe he says "but it evolved into something very different" (not "entirely", which does make a difference). Which implies that while they didn't exactly hit a bullseye, they may not have been altogether wrong. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:11, 9 January 2010 (EST)
      • • "A" is very different than "B". So we need a name that is "very different" than healing touch for this ability. --OutbackZack 16:43, 9 January 2010 (EST)
      • Ok, something I find really annoying in this whole discussion: people keep using examples, such as Tracy, to justify inaccurate names. THE TRACY MATTER IS STILL IN DISCUSSION MUCH LIKE THIS ONE. Just because we haven't reached a conclusion it doesn't mean that the current situation is the consensus. This goes for every ability we have an issue with effects and name. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:38, 9 January 2010 (EST)

why was it changed from "jeremy's ability"?

Calling it healing touch is wrong. That name was based on Linderman's and Ishi's abilities, so their ability should be healing touch! We have decided that Jeremy's ability is not the same as theirs so his cannot be healing touch. I think it's high time we got someone else in to help, and get an admin to protect the page from moves and edits. --mc_hammark 15:10, 9 January 2010 (EST)

• While I don't agree that calling it healing touch is wrong, it shouldn't have been moved back without some resolution.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:12, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  • Mc hammark, there is a canon source for the name, which trumps "Jeremy's ability". The only way we can move it to ANYTHING BUT Healing touch is if we come to a complete consensus. We haven't done that, and likely won't. Since it was explicitly named, we HAVE to keep it. Don't move it back.--Riddler 19:15, 9 January 2010 (EST)
    • Furthermore, the name is NOT based on Linderman/Ishi's ability, otherwise they would already have been merged. Jeremy's ability was named by a one of Noah's documents.--Riddler 19:19, 9 January 2010 (EST)
      • Noone can come to an agreement about healing touch so it should be neutral and be left as jeremy's ability.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 19:21, 9 January 2010 (EST)
        • Catalyst, since it has an in-show source, the default name for the page has to be just that. To put it back to Jeremy's ability, we'd need a consensus for that. No consensus doesn't always mean "User's ability." This needs to be noted somewhere.--Riddler 19:24, 9 January 2010 (EST)
          • The in-show name is outdated in-show, Jeremy's ability is the only 100% accurate name while there is no consensus. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:26, 9 January 2010 (EST)
            • Freezing is also outdated. Keep that in mind.--Riddler 19:27, 9 January 2010 (EST)
              • Freezing involves other people, it still has to be split, this was already split from Ishi and Linderman. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:30, 9 January 2010 (EST)
                • You know what I meant. Tracy's involvement in it is outdated. If her ability is split from that article and named "Tracy's ability", then I can agree with this being named "Jeremy's ability". If it's left alone, this must be left alone. --Riddler 19:32, 9 January 2010 (EST)
                  • We might even bypass that if the on-going poll splits the page in the current proposition. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:34, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Moving this page

The name we've been given for this ability is "healing touch". The name was given very explicitly in a canon source. We can debate the name all we want, but in the end, our job as wiki editors is simply to archive. Despite our debates and strong feeling for or against the name, we will go with the name that is given to us. Whether it's right or wrong, or whether it only names an attribute or not is not the question. I know his ability has evolved to do other things, but we don't know if the name of his ability has changed. On a personal note, I can't always say why writers choose the names they do, and I certainly don't always agree with the names that the writers give us...but the important thing to remember is that we should archive what's given to us. So please don't move this page from "healing touch" until we're told that the name has changed. Thank you. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2010 (EST)

• Ryan, I disagree. You say that it's irrelevant if a name cover all attributes of an ability; but the naming conventions claim otherwise. But the very same naming conventions indeed say that only canon names should be accepted. That was the entire point of the discussion: the "must cover all aspects" that currently exists in the naming conventions is conflicting with other guidelines, so moving this page to anything but Jeremy's ability is arbitrary and unjustified, since any guideline to be used is void in this case. If the admin team thinks this page should be called "healing touch" and that's non-negotiable, that's fine, but please fix the naming conventions first, or this sort of thing will keep happening again.--Referos 11:22, 10 January 2010 (EST)
  • I agree with Referos, and Noah did describe the ability as more, using other terms than Healing touch. Just because The Company said it was Healing touch however many years ago does not mean they were right. The Company is not infallible, they can make mistakes, too. --Skullman1392 12:46, 10 January 2010 (EST)
    • You're right, the Company isn't infallible. But it gave us an explicit name and we don't have a consensus agreeing on anything to change it. We have to go with whats given unless we can come to a consensus, and no consensus does not always mean it drops to the lowest level of the naming convention. --Riddler 12:52, 10 January 2010 (EST)
      • I have to agree with Referos as well, Ryan. Whether or not it names all attributes of an ability is exactly the right question, because if it doesn't, the conventions state we cannot use it. This is true whether it comes from the Company or anywhere else. If the conventions need changing, that's a seperate debate that must be held first. Swm 12:55, 10 January 2010 (EST)
        • And that seperate debate has been started at the naming conventions article. If anyone wants to weigh in, please go there.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:56, 10 January 2010 (EST)
          • We're not here to question whether or not the name that's been given to us matches the power exactly, or whether it names all attributes. If the name of the power is "healing touch", then that's the name of the ability, and all the other attributes that might be associated with the power should be described in the body of the article. No, the Company is not infallible, but we have no reason to believe that they're wrong in naming the ability, especially since they had encountered others with the same ability and the same change to the ability (to take away life as well as give life). I'm not sure what needs to be changed in the naming conventions--it states very clearly that if a name is given for a ability in a canon source, that name should be used, regardless of whether it is the best description or not. Only when we are coming up with a descriptive name should the name be rejected if it doesn't cover all aspects. If you can be more specific about what changes need to be made to the naming conventions, I will gladly bring it up with the admin team, and a broader team if needed. But until then, our standard is and always has been that when a name is given to us, we use it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:09, 10 January 2010 (EST)
            • If there was nothing wrong with the naming conventions, we wouldn't be having such a lengthy discussion about possible changes to it. No convention or guideline is perfect, there will always be flaws and cracks, but not to mend those cracks if possible seems like giving up on it. The very fact we call it a convention does that. It's too strict. Guidelines, while setting conventions for how things should be done also leaves open the possibility of doing something different should a situation in which it doesn't work, it's more flexible. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:38, 10 January 2010 (EST)
            • "As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability." This is listed under "names derived from canon sources" section, where episodes are listed as a canon source. This appears to conflict with the rule you cite, Ryan, but there's nothing there about this only applying for descriptive names as opposed to generally. Hence, the debate is over which of the two rules should take precedence in cases like this one and Tracy's power- and this is why people suggest that whether "healing touch" covers one attribute or all of them is indeed important. Swm 18:36, 10 January 2010 (EST)
              • Yes. Ryan, the point of the discussion wasn't really whether or not to use "healing touch"; it was pretty much a flaw in the naming conventions. As Swm pointed out, currently they state that even a canon name can be discarded if it doesn't cover all aspects of the power. This is a contradiction because, as you said, a canon name cannot be invalidated, ever. Since the naming conventions explode, we have nothing to justify naming this page, whether "healing touch", "life and death" or "fipojfpioe". The naming conventions must be altered, or they will remain void.--Referos 20:00, 10 January 2010 (EST)
              • Ah, I see where you're talking about. It does say in general, which is softly referring to times when people mention an ability's name in passing, not when they are given explicitly. For instance, Hiro's ability is sometimes called "time travel" in conversation, but that certainly doesn't cover all aspects of his ability, so it's rejected. Ditto the Haitian's ability being called "memory wiping". Luckily, in those two cases, the name of Hiro's ability was able to be derived from an overarching conversational comment from Hiro about being able to manipulate the space-time continuum (and then the name was later given to us in a canon source). In the Haitian's case, we were able to create a description that covered all aspects.

                Some time after the naming conventions were developed, we decided that explicitness takes precedence over canonicity. That doesn't really affect the case here, but an offshoot of that decision would be that if a name is explicitly given, we use it. I can certainly update the naming conventions so that the part you're quoting says, "As a general rule, for a non-explicitly given name to be considered the name of an ability..." That probably does need to be updated. However, the rest of the naming convention still stands--if a name is given for a ability in a canon source, that name should be used, regardless of whether it is the best description or not. It's not a perfect set of guidelines, but it certainly does work. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2010 (EST)

                • Anything could work, but it certainly wouldn't work as well as it could if it was different. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:12, 10 January 2010 (EST)
                  • I thought it was our job to correctly archive the show. Just because we are given an ability name does not mean it is correct. Correctly archiving the show would take into account all aspects of a person's ability when naming it, not just a name stated, but everything the user has been shown to do. It is wrong to name an ability from an outdated source that is no longer correct. Sure, years ago, Jeremy could only heal things, so The Company called his ability Healing touch. But his ability has since evolved to not only a healing touch, but a killing touch as well. Saying that Jeremy has a Healing touch is only stating an aspect of his ability, not his ability in its entirety. Healing touch is not his only ability, and should not be considered as such. It would make no sense to somebody new on the site to come to a page that has "Jeremy {[kills}] a man" with "{[kills}]" linking to a page titled "Healing touch". Said user would become confused, wondering why on earth anyone would name an ability that causes the user to kill through touch, "Healing touch". It makes no logical sense to the user, so he or she discredits our website as unreliable and inaccurate, especially if the user has seen the show! They know Jeremy can both heal and kill, so why should his ability be called "Healing touch"? It makes us look ignorant to keep it as such, when it is so obviously and clearly more than that. It is, notable, that the Company misdiagnosed his ability as only a healing touch; in fact, I think this should deffinatly be mentioned on the page, but this not mean his ability should still be named that way. --Skullman1392 20:33, 10 January 2010 (EST)
                    • If the Company used the name "healing touch" to describe Jeremy's ability, that's what we use too. That would be correctly archiving the page. We correctly describe the ability on the article itself, not in the title. Yes, it's obvious that Jeremy's ability has mutated or changed, much like Tracy's and Matt's and others' have. But we don't know that the name of the ability has changed. Until we know that, it would be supposition to assume anything else. Ultimately, we go with the name that was given to us. Always have, always will. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2010 (EST)
                      • Then I guess what I don't understand is why so many people blantantly follow rules set years ago, without even considering the need for change. Who said rules can't change? For some reason, it seems like certain people on the wiki are completely and utterly blind to the need to change certain things. "Nothing is set in stone." So why does the wiki have to remain completely unchanging when that isn't the way the world works? Things change and evolve; we should change with them. --Skullman1392 00:02, 11 January 2010 (EST)
• Query for you Ryan. You say it is supposition if we assume any name that's not been used on the show. But if the name we choose is inferred directly from actual canon evidence (i.e. episodes), how are we speculating? Example: if we called Jeremy's ability "healing and killing" (awful name I know, but bear with me), because that's what he's been shown to do (he can heal, and he can kill), there's no original thinking there at all, just like when we're not when we put the information in the article itself. This would also apply to Tracy and something like "water manipulation". Surely we cannot be said to be speculating if everything we use is backed up by the evidence, including the ability's name? However, we are speculating if we say that the writers want his ability to still be called "healing touch", because we've no evidence for that. If we're going for the least amount of speculation possible, therefore, the name shouldn't remain healing touch at all. Swm 05:46, 11 January 2010 (EST)
  • Now, this upcoming idea may sound just as awful, but it could theoretically be possible that Jeremy's ability to "kill" is not actually an ability to kill at all. It is theoretically possible that Jeremy used his ability (of "healing touch") to heal himself using his victim's health, and simply healed himself so intensely that nothing was left. Look at what happens when Peter uses it. He heals someone, and his own life energy is substantially weakened (to the point where he may wind up dying trying to save someone). What if an aspect of this ability, is the ability to reverse the effect. Healing yourself at the cost of someone else's life energy. This could even explain (if we were to entertain the notion of combining the two abilities) Ishi's death immediately after healing Hiro's memory. And take Linderman. He has known about his ability for about 30 years, during which time he could have found ways to channel his power to less weaken him afterward. Anyway, my point is, it is possible this is still a healing-centric power. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:52, 11 January 2010 (EST)
• This debate is starting to become very clear. It's looking like this:
  • "Here is the name."
  • "The name is wrong."
  • "But that's the name they gave us."
  • "Well, it's wrong, let's change it."
  • "The rules say we go with the name they gave us."
  • "Then the rules are wrong, let's change those."
  • "An admin says the canon rule is correct, we can't change it, even if we want to."
  • "Then the canon rule is wrong, let's change everything."
• Here's the situation, guys. We were given a canon name by the writers, by the most knowledgeable in-canon source: The Company. We have no other explicit names given to us in a canon setting. Every other suggested name was a description given by one character, at best. A description in a canon source cannot overrule an explicit name in a canon source. If we attempt to change that rule, then literally every ability name in the wiki is open to debate, interpretation, and change, despite the writers of the show telling us otherwise. This ability was named healing touch, and this is the only name we are able to choose from. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:46, 11 January 2010 (EST)
  • Now that Ryan cleared up the misunderstanding of the rules I'm fine with the name. I only debated for the name change because of the unclear guidelines that had supported it. --OutbackZack 15:23, 11 January 2010 (EST)
    • An excellent summary of the debate, Ricard (no sarcasm). The thing is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that final conclusion. Just because it would mean we would need to debate a lot, possibly all of the other ability names if we change our rules, it doesn't follow therefore that the correct course of action is to keep the current ones. It simply means we've adopted a possibly unsuitable policy for a long period of time and now need to correct it (which I believe is the case). Saying "to do this would require a lot of work, therefore it's not the right thing to do" doesn't seem a strong argument to me. Swm 14:19, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Still a healing power?

Separating this from the above debate because it only just occurred to me, but it might help explain exactly what this power is doing, and (meanwhile) possibly support "healing touch" as still being a correct name. Now, the big concern is that Jeremy can kill using his ability. But what if the killing is not the ability, but a side effect of the ability?

Now, let me explain. When Peter uses this ability to heal the hospital patients, he is visibly weakened by using it. His own life energy is being depleted by healing others. Now, let's take the opposite approach. We witnessed Jeremy kill a man using his ability. What if he was able to reverse his ability? The biggest flaw in Linderman's ability was that he could heal anyone, but he couldn't save himself. What if healing touch could be used to heal yourself using someone else's health? Jeremy could have, out of reflex and possible fear of being hurt, uncontrollably healed himself, at the cost of the other man's health (and ultimately, his life). Thus, this ability could still be described as a "healing touch". It's just that the one being touched and the one being healed need not be the same person.

Now, in addition, we can observe this ability from the perspectives of Linderman and Ishi. Linderman used this ability to heal, but had over 30 years of experience with his ability. It is possible that he learned how to no longer be exhausted by the use of his ability, but after the trauma of the Vietnam War, did not attempt to explore his ability much more than knowing he could heal (whereas Jeremy's confusion and fear may have "unlocked" the darker side of it, in a subconscious attempt to protect himself). Now we see Ishi, who herself is dying. It is possible she was aware of the darker side of her ability, however, let us see her surroundings. She lives with her husband Kaito, a Company founder (not risking his life to cure her cancer), and her son Hiro (whom she would never risk harm to of any sort). She may not have known where the ability could go, and if she did, she would almost certainly not use it to harm anyone. When she healed Hiro's memory and transfered the catalyst to him, the flipside killed her.

So, gigantic post, but I think if we consider this power as the ability to heal at the cost of another's health, Linderman's, Ishi's, and Jeremy's abilities remain consistent and singular. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:42, 11 January 2010 (EST)

• It's possible, and a nice theory, but still a theory. Peter could have just been over using the ability. We all can run, but at some point we get tired and can't run anymore. Same could be said for abilities. However, because Healing touch was only name for Jeremy and not for Linderman or Ishi, I support the separation. --OutbackZack 15:54, 11 January 2010 (EST)
  • TBH, I feel that it's completely the same ability, but just with an evolution that linderman hadn't discovered. Claire no longer feels pain, but sylar still does, Tracy can turn into water, but no one else with freezing demonstrated it, Flint learned how to make his fire "extra hot" etc . . .Gamerelite1 22:57, 18 January 2010 (EST)

Nothing will happen here

Not to be rude to people who are actually interested in this topic, but I think this ability will simply end up again as "Jeremy's ability", though there is an AT on his ability. People will simply counter the fact that this is an ability called as "Healing touch" becuase it could also kill, not just simply heal and then another will contradict this claim and so on and so forth... this is an endless debate that people will son forget like Gordon's and Trevor's abilities.

I know my opinion doesn't count much, seeing that I'm a newbie here but I guess I probably should say what's on my mind to clear my head up. What if the most cannon sources that are given to the audience are incorrect or not fitting to the site's naming conventions? Say if Mohinder(from the TV episodes) calls Meredith's ability "Heat Generation", would the site follow it when it could clearly do more than that(make fire, to be specific)? I think that the wiki is torn between following cannon sources(even if the names are clearly wrong or unjustified)and naming abilities by themsleves and giving justice to all aspects of the ability. --Realistic

• This is an argument that's been had before, most recently at the talk page of the naming conventions, including more or less that exact point. The current rules are that if we're given an ability name, we must use it regardless of how accurate it is. Many people (based on the unofficial polls and the debates over this), think this is a flawed policy, including myself. However, the debate over it seems to have stalled at the moment. Swm 07:04, 20 January 2010 (EST)
  • The rules are (as far as I've heard) intended to say this: If we get an explicit canon name, use it. If we get multiple, choose the most-correct one. If we have no explicitly-named names, then we choose a descriptive name which covers all aspects. The "covers all aspects" part is strictly for descriptive names. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:51, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    • And that set of rules lead us to the currently immense debacle over canon vs. accuracy. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:56, 20 January 2010 (EST)
      • The "most correct" one when we have multiple names is the one deemed to be the most canonical (on what is an arbitrary scale), not the most accurate, right? An interesting use of correct there, but I understand the point. Since PJDEP agreed to disagree with me in the discussion, nobody else has yet responded to my arguments on the subject, yet nobody's said anything about a change. Swm 06:18, 21 January 2010 (EST)
        • I always reply to people, I have already made my point in all on-going discussions, I just need someone to reply to them. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:31, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Life-Flow Manipulation

This name cannot be considered reliable, because healing touch was only given in the assignment tracker as this boy's ability when they thought that was all he could do; so since it was revealed he could control the flow of life itself, it should be called (duh) Life Flow Manipulation... It only makes sense--Shadowulf1 14:17, 22 January 2010

• Please remember to sign your comments in the future. In response to the supposedly invalid name "healing touch", if you read even a fraction of the discussions above you'll understand why the article has kept its name.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:30, 22 January 2010 (EST)

• I've been thinking about it... how could you "manipulate" life? As far as I know, even if you're injured, dying or in any bad physical condition, you still have one complete life force(or soul, for that matter)and it's not damaged in any way. If you take it from a paranormal point of view, a soul is another "thing" from a body and it cannot be harmed unless the person is ultimately killed. Thus I don't think that you can "give" or "restore" life due to aforementioned reasons. That would the power of God, technically. So how could you describe somebody healing as "manipulating" life force?--Realistic
  • I've explained my side for the life-force thing above, I didn't made it up. I got it from the Activating Evolution website, don't know why we're not using it as a source isn't it the name of the book that Chandra wrote? --Dark Master 06:56, 27 January 2010 (EST)
    • Life, life force, or anything similar in this case refers to physical integrity. Manipulating it translates as harming or healing. Once dead, life isn't there anymore, so there's nothing to manipulate. Darkfiremaster13, do know that there is an Activating Evolution site that is part wiki, and has abilities as crazy as Mr. Muggle theories, among them comicbookkinesis. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:17, 27 January 2010 (EST)
      • Haven't really browse the whole site yet --Dark Master 07:25, 27 January 2010 (EST)
        • Uh, don't remember asking you to tell me whether I read the discussion or not; I did read some of, that's beside the point; since the person who created this series has credentials in theology and divinity and included a power like Mediumship, it's quite clear that we can assume that life-force flow, at least in the heroes universe; to control this flow would imply the name of the ability be called Life Flow Manipulation, Mr. Rudeness; no need to get snippy about why you kept the name, because if it's inaccurate, it's inaccurate. Besides, the file in Assignment Tracker was even stated (by HRG) as being outdated (the name given before they knew that he could control the flow of life both ways); now as for the sig, let's not get nit-picky; if you knew who I was in the first place, please just sign for me like you did, since you know so much. I'm a bit forgetful, so please try not to harp on little things like that; it seems a bit petty if you ask me.

User:Shadowulf1 13:44, 3 February 2010 (EST)

• • • • • I added your signature out of kindness, and politely reminded you to add it in the future. I wasn't reprimanding you or being petty. If anything, your reaction was petty, but I'm not going to focus on that. We try not to assume things when picking ability names, especially when we have a name from a canon source. Once again, if you read some of the discussions above, you'll understand why the name cannot be changed from "healing touch". Also, assuming how the ability works based on a writer's background is extremely speculative, and cannot be used as evidence.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:16, 3 February 2010 (EST)

• • • • • • ("If you read even a fraction of the discussions above..."; that WAS snarky, whether you intended to be or not, and I DID read the discussion, believe it or not; it's just that if you're paying attention to the name given in the Assignment Tracker, you should also pay attention to the true function of the ability, and what HRG said in regards to the true function of this ability)

So the name that you have for this ability (Healing touch) will just disregard the fact that he can also harm with his ability? OK, making sure that I'm not crazy when I conclude that you're being an orthodoxical know-it-all User:Shadowulf1 17:04, 4 February 2010 (EST)

• As has been said numerous times, it is not our job to decide that what the show explicitly says is wrong. We were given "healing touch", so that's the name we use. Also, if you could refrain from insulting members of the site, that would be nice. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:15, 4 February 2010 (EST)
  • You don't need to speculate. If the show shows a scene with the sky and characters say it's pink with black stripes, even if they show it as blue, we say it's blue, noting that the characters say otherwise. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:40, 4 February 2010 (EST)
    • Thanks, IE, I was thinking the same; and to you other two people if HRG already mentioned that Assignment Tracker 2.0 was incorrect in the naming of the boy's ability, then shouldn't you say the same? And don't take it as an insult; it's fact; some people just like to have all the answers (which is being a know-it-all) and go strictly by the book, even if the book is dead wrong... That's orthodoxical...

User:Shadowulf1 22:53, 4 February 2010 (EST)

• • • • Noah never said that the assignment tracker was incorrect, he simply implied that he was unaware that Jeremy's ability would change that way. That isn't enough evidence for a name change. We aren't here to make assumptions or speculate, we use the information the show gives us. The only explicit canon name we got was "healing touch", so that's what we go with. Everything else is noted within the article, we don't disregard it. Also, I would hardly say that I'm an "orthodoxical know-it-all", all I did was remind you to add your signature and inform you that this debate has been held several times in the past.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 23:05, 4 February 2010 (EST)

User:Shadowulf1 23:17, 4 February 2010 (EST) did you see what you said? "...he simply implied that he was unaware that Jeremy's ability would change that way..."; yes, he never explicitly said "this ability is no longer healing touch, it is now Life-Flow Manipulation", but he did say that the ability changed; therefore, one can conclude by any logical process, that the ability is no longer simply a healing touch, but is now something more...yes???

• • • • • No. Obviously, the ability can do more then heal, that's what we have the article for. It explains all aspects of the ability and doesn't leave anything out. However, the name of the article is not up for debate. We just don't know for certain that the writers didn't intend for "healing touch" to be a permanent name. Therefore, we cannot assume that we can change the ability name to something like "Life-flow manipulation". The only exception would be if Noah did say that quote you have written above.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 23:22, 4 February 2010 (EST)

• I agree, he does say it changed. So I think the ability name should change too right? But the problem was on the naming convention that we have. There are a lot of ability now that needed to be change because the name doesn't cover all the aspect, but we still keep it because it was shown on a canon source. I think we should discuss about the convention first --Dark Master 23:27, 4 February 2010 (EST)
  • This wiki is here to catalog the show, not interpret it. If any name of anything is given explicitly in a canon source, it trumps any other source of lesser explicitness. Period. Plus, ability names need not cover all aspects of an ability, that's what the page is for. The only time covering all aspects is importnat is if we need a descriptive name for an otherwise unnamed ability. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 23:30, 4 February 2010 (EST)
    • Noah said that "abilities can change into something else", I think that was the way of the writers to tell "us" that there are things not permanent even for the name that they give and if the company was still alive they will change the file according to what they can do "now". The "Healing Touch" for Jeremy was outdated and I think the company will change the files and give the ability a name that fits on what he can do now don't you think. --Dark Master 01:13, 5 February 2010 (EST)
      • The moment you start with "I think..." is the point where we have to stop. The rest of your statement is speculation, and we do not speculate. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 02:30, 5 February 2010 (EST)
        • Don't you think the company would change the name if they see what he can do now? They will change it surely that's what they do they keep the files "updated" on what the specials can do. But now that the company is gone there was no way assignment tracker can be updated, that's why the writers make a company agent "Noah" said those things. --Dark Master 02:43, 5 February 2010 (EST)