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Talk:List of evolved humans
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| Jan-Feb 2007 | David Berman(Actor) - Brian Davis(Character) • Sanjong/Sanjonp Iher • Shanti • Niki • Distinguish Between Show, Map, and List • Pam/Pan Green • Valcek... Valcan • Clairvoyance • Unnamed 3 (male) • More New Unnameds (from HD Screen Caps) • Potentiallys • Interactive list • Thirty Six Individuals. • Future Hiro • Eden McCain • Listing acquired powers • James Walker (confirmed Freeze Power) • Why Not Include the Genesis Files as Source Material • Asterick infinite |
Linderman
- Just to further compound things: the clip they showed at the Paley Festival doesn't confirm that Linderman is an evolved human. It confirms that he claims to be an evolved human. He should be added to this page when he displays a power, not when he says he has one.--Hardvice (talk) 15:59, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
- That's why I entered it commented out. Hopefully it will keep others from coming along after seeing the spoilers that he will have a power, and adding him prematurely, when the see the commented entry already there. This is no difference than the precedence we have done in the past with Candace and Dale. Both of them were listed before it was confirmed, yet commented out to deter anyone from adding them prematurely. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 03/15/2007 16:06 (EST)
- Right. I just don't want somebody to see that scene, which doesn't prove he's evolved, and restore it.--Hardvice (talk) 16:24, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
- I just added clarification comments within the comments themselves...hopefully that will be enough to prevent any premature showing of that row by any semi-conscious, non-trolling person. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 03/15/2007 16:36 (EST)
- Technically, the difference is that Candace and Dale were true spoilers--we already knew they had powers before they appeared. Heck, Candace was on the list, so we knew she had powers months ago. Here, Linderman is saying he has powers, and that's not always to be trusted. ... However, Malcolm McDowell did tell Entertainment Weekly he had a power, which I tend to believe a bit more than the scene referenced.... Personally, I don't mind having Linderman here commented out, I just don't think it's necessary. If somebody comes along and adds him to the list, then we should either delete it until it airs, or comment it out. By putting it in early, I feel it encourages adding spoilers to pages early. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:48, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
- Right. I just don't want somebody to see that scene, which doesn't prove he's evolved, and restore it.--Hardvice (talk) 16:24, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
- That's why I entered it commented out. Hopefully it will keep others from coming along after seeing the spoilers that he will have a power, and adding him prematurely, when the see the commented entry already there. This is no difference than the precedence we have done in the past with Candace and Dale. Both of them were listed before it was confirmed, yet commented out to deter anyone from adding them prematurely. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 03/15/2007 16:06 (EST)
Reformat
If we get rid of the actor column (which is out-of-world info in an in-world article), and merge the status column with the name (i.e. "Brian Davis (deceased)", then we can get rid of the cryptic codes in the source column and opt for things like "The List", "The Map", "The Journal". Thoughts?--Hardvice (talk) 02:10, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
- So you can see the difference and to make maintenance easier, I added a template. Here's a version of what I'm talking about:
- The "deceased" reflexes are automatic, and allow for either just a "deceased" notation (like Felipe Acerra) or a link to Sylar's victims (like Charlie). The links for powers, names, and locations are also automatic. See Template:Evolved for a rundown of how it works. Having a template will also allow us to make major changes to the formatting of the table with minimal adjustments to the template itself, so we should probably switch to a template even if we keep the current layout.--Hardvice (talk) 02:39, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
- Your proposed changes to the table improve it I think. --Mercury McKinnon 06:17, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
- Yeah I also can't disagree but we need to add CM and CC in the Glossary but CM is already used for Company Man so what's next ? -- FrenchFlo (talk) (contribs) 06:23, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
- Great changes. I, for one, am so glad to see the actor's name removed from this list...I find the parenthetical "(deceased)" note a bit superfluous. If the name is italicized, that should be enough. Maybe have a note at the top that says "Names in italics represent deceased characters". — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:06, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
- Sounds good but italic isn't enough euh... visible ? I mean the page should be clear in a 1second look, and italic vs non-italic isn't pretty easy to see unless you stay a moment reading. Can't we just
"dont know the word"them ? -- FrenchFlo (talk) (contribs) 07:09, 28 March 2007 (EDT)- That's fine. Personally, I think the italics stand out enough, but if you don't, then can leave the "deceased" on there. I don't think
strikingthem out would be a good idea since it kind of gives the impression that they don't even belong on the list. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:21, 28 March 2007 (EDT)- Well that's up to, I didn't thought about that face of the striking thing and I agree but I still believe that italic isn't enough. I mean, when they were in red, it was clear who was or wasn't alive, but italic isn't fast as red to detect. That's just my point of view and I don't think it should be considered as a consensus :) What do you think of something like that, using the ascii cross alt+0134 :
- That's fine. Personally, I think the italics stand out enough, but if you don't, then can leave the "deceased" on there. I don't think
- Sounds good but italic isn't enough euh... visible ? I mean the page should be clear in a 1second look, and italic vs non-italic isn't pretty easy to see unless you stay a moment reading. Can't we just
- Your proposed changes to the table improve it I think. --Mercury McKinnon 06:17, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
| Name | Power | Location | Sources |
|---|---|---|---|
| <span id="† Diego Vela5">† Diego Vela5 | Unknown | Unknown | The List |
As you wish! -- FrenchFlo (talk) (contribs)
- Looks good, much cleaner list. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 03/28/2007 07:57 (EST)
- I'd rather just have the italics or "(deceased)". I don't think the "†" is necessary. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:18, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
- Looks good, much cleaner list. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 03/28/2007 07:57 (EST)
Footnotes
Currently "Chandra's journal entries" are out of sequence and "Amid Halebi"'s note may not be needed anymore. I was going to change them but was wondering if there was a better way. Would it be possible to use footnotes like at Wikipedia? Would this require a plugin or is it a template? -Lөvөl 13:02, 29 March 2007 (EDT)
- Heh, I thought about that too. I justified it by telling myself that they're pretty much in order by column, not alphabetically. (Though footnote #3 is still out of whack). I don't think we should get rid of the Amid note. Without doing any research into wikipedia's footnote system, I think they use templates, but I'm not positive. However, we are not real heavy on the footnotes -- if we don't use the episode or GN as a reference, we cite our source right in the article. And I only know 2 or 3 other pages that utilize footnotes -- I'm not sure it's worth trying to copy Wikipedia. ... I'll change the numbers now so I don't feel so bugged about it. :) — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:09, 29 March 2007 (EDT)
- The <ref> system does not appear to be built in to MediaWiki, but it doesn't use templates. It maust be an add-on. It might be worth getting, though. It would make this a lot easier to maintain.--Hardvice (talk) 14:15, 29 March 2007 (EDT)
- Ah, others looking for footnotes! I've been meaning to use the <ref> and </references> system (called Cite.php) at this Wiki for the longest time. (It was what I had in mind as a way to include and mark several canon statements that are seemingly conflicting by using a linked footnote to easily point out the conflict to readers.) Yes, Cite.php is an extension. You can find out more about it here.
Location tab
We need some clarification on this section. First, is it a birthplace or last known location? Since our heroes are moving around the country/world throughout the series, I think the location to refer to a permanent residence of sorts. For example, Hiro resides in Tokyo, was born in Osaka, and is currently in New York. I think Tokyo would be the correct location to place. Hana resides in Montana, though she's been all over the place lately. So, I think we should stick with what people would consider "home" for location: the location of their main domicile.--Bob 17:44, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
- Agreed. Given several of the character's seeming ability to cross the globe in seconds (i.e. HRG in Genesis), I think noting current locations is asking for trouble. I for one would prefer just confirmed residences--which works nicely since the whole reason the column is there is for people from the list and the journal, which list home locations.--Hardvice (talk) 17:51, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
- Absolutely. I mainly added this due to the back and forth with regards to the Crane boy and others whose residence may not be known, but a location is. In this case, a simple "unknown" or nothing at all would be sufficient.--Bob 17:54, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
- When I first added the location column to this page as it was being morphed into the grid, the intent was of 'prominent' or 'important' location; not birthplace. In the case of crane-boy, the only reference location we have on him is Odessa, so it should remain until another more prominent location is given. 'unknown' gives no information.....and is worthless as a resource tool. This page is a resource page on evolved humans and should help give us info on them, not hide info about them. IMO. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 05/3/2007 18:01 (EST)
- The location column should really match the "Home" line from the character boxes. (In fact I think "Location" should be changed to "Home" on the list of evolved humans.) When we start saying that something is "prominent or important" it opens up a huge window of speculation and subjective judgments. Hiro has been in NYC and Vegas much more than he has been in Japan, but it would not make sense for him to have anything but Tokyo as his location. Some characters have lived in more than one place (we know Hana lived in Israel and Montana, Eden lived in LA, NYC, and Utah) so it would make sense that they have more than one location listed. But just because a character is seen in one place or because they spend a lot of time there does not make it their home. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:26, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
- When I first added the location column to this page as it was being morphed into the grid, the intent was of 'prominent' or 'important' location; not birthplace. In the case of crane-boy, the only reference location we have on him is Odessa, so it should remain until another more prominent location is given. 'unknown' gives no information.....and is worthless as a resource tool. This page is a resource page on evolved humans and should help give us info on them, not hide info about them. IMO. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 05/3/2007 18:01 (EST)
- Absolutely. I mainly added this due to the back and forth with regards to the Crane boy and others whose residence may not be known, but a location is. In this case, a simple "unknown" or nothing at all would be sufficient.--Bob 17:54, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
Canon and Near-Canon Inclusion
Historically, this page has been an all-inclusive listing of Canon (Episodes) and Near-Canon (GNs, Heroes 360, Journal). I just found today, that the Heroes 360 AE site has a new Mailbag tab, (that is uneditable by the public unlike the AE wiki), that lists two new people with evolved powers that should probably be listed on this page for documentation. (Rick H., and Matt S.) Perhaps we should bust this page out into two lists, a confirmed primary canon list, and a suspect/secondary canon list....I'm not sure if that is best or not. But if we only hold this page as a list of primary canon only, we would have to remove alot of people from it. I think it best serves the Heroes community as an all-inclusive resource list for documentation; not one that is too scrutinized so that it only contains primary canon sources.
This page, is the most inclusive and fully documented list that exists that I am aware of, from all Heroes sites, for documenting Evolved Humans, or possible/suspected evolved humans. I would hate to see it diminish instead of grow.
Regardless, we should probably update the leading paragraph of this page explaining the 'canon' criteria, and linking to the Canon page so others will be clear on the inclusion rules. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 06/26/2007 16:28 (EST)
- I don't think we need to link to a help page from the intro text of a page. That seems really awkward and unnecessary--one's an actual content page, the other is a behind-the-scenes meta page about this Wiki. And I don't really think the mailbag falls within the "near canon" scope of other Heroes 360 content because it appears to be fan-submitted (according to the AE.org main page), so it's really no different than me saying I'm an evolved human and adding myself to the list.--Hardvice (talk) 16:43, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
- I agree 'if' it is possible to submit emails to the mailbag...but from what I can determine about it, it is no different than Hiro's blog....only official NBC Hero people can update it....not regular people like you and me. It therefore is a list 'they' have created, no different than Hiro's Blog entries....or Hana's entries....or the entries on the other 360 sites. If you can determine that regular people like us can submit to the mailbag, then I agree that Rick H. and Matt S. should not be listed. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 06/26/2007 16:47 (EST)
- It's more like the tips on Hana's blog. On Hana's blog, you sent text messages, and NBC posted them. Some were pretty ridiculous and definitely not canon. On AE.org, you send an email to Mohinder's address (which used to be on the front page of the wiki, with a suggestion to email him, back when I could get the wiki to come up--screenshot here) and NBC posts them. It's still fan-created content, even if it's moderated through NBC.--Hardvice (talk) 16:52, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
- The letters seem to be written in universe, so they are ether written by NBC or they only picked fan letters that were in universe (which they didn't seem to do on Hana's website), they also removed any way for fans to send more so the frist is more likely. They are still non cannon though, but so are the names on the interactive map, especially Joe Landers. Ether all the non canon should be moved or include these and have a note like the others. -Lөvөl 13:05, 29 June 2007 (EDT)
- Since this is ultimately an encyclopedia/resource site for all things Heroes, I think we should be inclusive not exclusive in our list of Evolved Humans. Otherwise, who is going to have a more complete and thorough documented resource? Before we ever got to a point of considering exclusion or removal, we should simply restructure our list(s) to be explanatory enough to allow all Evloved Humans to be included and documented. The webspace isn't suffering, and until NBC starts to through out evolved humans by the hundreds that we can't keep up with to document, we should do our best to have the most complete list. My point in starting this discussion really had nothing to do with inclusion/exclusion from the list based on canon, but moreso whether separate groupings of the list should be made with consideration of the levels of canon. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 06/29/2007 13:16 (EST)
- Reading through them they appear to me to be fan-created. It looks like they just picked ones that were well-written and in-universe. Since they're fan-written and not mentioned elsewhere their canonicity (even extending as far as near-canonical sources) is highly suspect. They shouldn't be included here unless we see them mentioned elsewhere on a truely canonical or near-canonical source. When canonicity is in doubt, err on the side of non-inclusion. On pages focusing on canonical information (which is virtually every page short of user pages, fan creations, theories, and spoilers), the canonicity must be satisfied primarily above all other things. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for me to call myself an evolved human on a page focusing on canonical information just because I want to pretend to be one. (Admin 13:21, 29 June 2007 (EDT))
- The letters seem to be written in universe, so they are ether written by NBC or they only picked fan letters that were in universe (which they didn't seem to do on Hana's website), they also removed any way for fans to send more so the frist is more likely. They are still non cannon though, but so are the names on the interactive map, especially Joe Landers. Ether all the non canon should be moved or include these and have a note like the others. -Lөvөl 13:05, 29 June 2007 (EDT)
- It's more like the tips on Hana's blog. On Hana's blog, you sent text messages, and NBC posted them. Some were pretty ridiculous and definitely not canon. On AE.org, you send an email to Mohinder's address (which used to be on the front page of the wiki, with a suggestion to email him, back when I could get the wiki to come up--screenshot here) and NBC posts them. It's still fan-created content, even if it's moderated through NBC.--Hardvice (talk) 16:52, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
- I agree 'if' it is possible to submit emails to the mailbag...but from what I can determine about it, it is no different than Hiro's blog....only official NBC Hero people can update it....not regular people like you and me. It therefore is a list 'they' have created, no different than Hiro's Blog entries....or Hana's entries....or the entries on the other 360 sites. If you can determine that regular people like us can submit to the mailbag, then I agree that Rick H. and Matt S. should not be listed. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 06/26/2007 16:47 (EST)
