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Talk:Neurocognitive deficit/Archive 1

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I'm sorry, but no.

"Lobotomize" was CLEARLY a description she gave, since she still doesn't quite understand what her power is. This page is pretty ridiculous (the most glaring bit being that a "lobotomy" is a specific type of surgery) --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:48, 24 December 2008 (EST)

  • I don't agree with the split and it was not discussed on the mental manipulation page. See the discussion on Talk:Mental manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:49, 24 December 2008 (EST)
    • Kill it. Psilaq Remake 23:14, 24 December 2008 (EST)
      • If it's the split that's the issue, that's one thing. I understand somebody started a discussion in a place that may not be the most intuitive (Talk:Anna). However, it wasn't the "wrong" place to start a discussion, and doesn't negate the fact that we just don't know that Anna and the Haitian have the same power. There are a lot of things that fit, and a few that don't fit exactly. But until it's confirmed, we shouldn't assume.

        If it's the name of the ability that's an issue, that's another deal. Let's look at some other possibilities. Are there other options? Is there anything else from the iStory or Red Eye, Part 1 we can use to name the ability? Mohinder describes the ability as being able to disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought. (I'm borrowing from Miami's excellent summary at talk:mental manipulation.) "Sensory perception disorientation" seems both unwieldy and too narrow. Would something simpler like "disorientation" work? I think we have enough information that we don't need to simply say "Anna's ability". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:23, 25 December 2008 (EST)

        • At the absolute least the name is entirely wrong as she does not, in actuality, lobotomize anyone. She shuts down upper brain functions. On top of this, the description Mohinder gives sounds a lot like it can apply to mental manipulation just as easily. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 01:46, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • I think merging the abilities without pointing anyone there was 'wrong'. I don't see why the term 'mental manipulation' doesn't fit her. Based on Mohinder's description, manipulation minds appears to me to be what she does and I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise, just that we don't know for sure she has the Haitian's ability. I really think that should be irrelevant in naming her ability, but would we be able to compromise have the Haitian's ability be "mental manipulation (I)" and have hers be "mental manipulation (II)"? Isn't it clear that they are both forms of mental manipulation?

          Disorientation doesn't cut it as that doesn't really encompass all she can do. Mohinder's full quote:

          "[Anna] has a truly incredible ability to shut down the upper brain functions of those around her."
          "Her abilities have been known to affect and disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought."

          So she just doesn't disorient, she can presumably affect them in other ways.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:52, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • That's what Lobotomizing does so of course it would affect affect and disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought. Her ability is to shut down the upper brain functions. Mental manipulation can do much more than just shut down that part of the brain. Anna hasn't done anything else besides lobotomizing someone. Until she does something else it would be pure speculation that she has Mental manipulation that allows for much more to be done. --OutbackZack 02:00, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • You're right, Miami, the term "mental manipulation" does fit Anna's ability. But we're not matching terms, we're matching abilities. We just don't know that Anna and the Haitian have the same ability. "Mental manipulation" also fits for describing what Candice does and what Doyle does. I have absolutely no problem calling Anna's ability "mental manipulation"...but there is a big problem in listing her and the Haitian on the same page as having the same ability. It's speculative. I suppose doing a parenthetical note would work...but so long as we're using the term for one person, I really don't like the idea of using it for somebody else to describe what might be a different power. Isn't there another term we could use? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • Throwing my hat into the ring with these 2 cents; in It Takes a Village, Part 2, the Haitian does pretty much the same thing to his village when Guillame is beating him. He also is negating his father's ability, something Anna has not been shown to be able to do with her ability (I think Ricardo was able to use his ability whilst she was using hers, not sure on that). Take it for what you will. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • Anna didn't want to use her ability on Red Eye, as she feels sorry that he lost his family and doesn't want to harm him.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • Why does the Haitian get priority for the term over Anna, then? Shouldn't it be the other way around? We know that the Haitian can affect minds turning them into zombies, turn people unconscious and erase their memories, and we know all that deals with the mind. We are also saying he can block other's powers by affecting other people's minds, and that's speculative. For all we know, the Haitian blocks powers by blocking a person's ability to produce adrenaline. However, on the other hand, we have Anna who has done nothing but affect other people's minds. If we must separate them, I think the Haitian should be removed and have Anna be mental manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • I strongly believe the name should stay. What Anna said about her ability is now cannon and should be taken into account with naming her ability. No different than what we did for Ability supercharging. Also the term isn't at all wrong. All you have to do is do a search and right away you discover if fits. Here's an example. --OutbackZack 02:17, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • Anna didn't outright name her own ability, she described it and so has Mohinder. Based on the descriptions, I favor Anna's ability as "mental manipulation". I like the term "neurocognitive deficit" as a narrower term for Anna's ability too. It was suggested previously for the Haitian's ability, but rejected due to speculation about how the ability blocking was performed. There is as-yet no such speculation in using the term to describe Anna's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:38, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • Merge it back to Mental manipulation, this is not even close. Although knowing how things around here work, I won't be suprised if this stays it's own page for a few weeks.--Piemanmoo (talk) 02:45, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • The term that she used to describe does indeed make for a proper name for her ability. Lobotomization is a real term that describes exactly what her ability does. Ability supercharging] is the the ability to supercharge other evolved human abilities, Appearance alteration is the ability ability to change one's appearance, Dream manipulation is the ability to manipulate dreams, Healing is the ability to heal others, Lie detection is the ability to detect lies. So it would make logical sense to to call Anna's ability Lobotomization because it's the ability to lobotomize others, and when you lobotomize someone you shut down the upper brain functions. --OutbackZack 02:51, 25 December 2008 (EST)
            • Lobotomization is done by cutting the nerve's in a person's brain. We don't know if that's what she does. In fact, in chapter 3 of Operation Bad Blood, she had begun using her ability on the Pinehearst contractor but got stopped due to the eclipse and the player had no lasting brain damage. That suggests to me that it's likely not a simple cutting that her ability performs but instead some kind of biochemical reaction. However, we don't really know which it is meaning it's not really the best name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:59, 25 December 2008 (EST)
              • But the term has also been use in other media (i.e. comics) resources to describe the same thing. --OutbackZack 03:01, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                • Scientific references are normally preferred over comics ones when available; also a common misnomer is still a misnomer.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:07, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                • What she said is a near cannon source and it ranks over coming up with a different term. Lobotomization is also scientific in itself. However, let's first worry about if we're going to keep this article or not. Then and only then should we worry about the name of the article. Because why worry about the name if the article may get deleted. --OutbackZack 03:10, 25 December 2008 (EST)
                  • An administrator, Ryan, already said he preferred not to recombine the articles, so I doubt that's going to happen though I would like it to. He asked us to consider a different name. "Lobotomization" wasn't explicitly used, it's a name you're taking from a description that doesn't seem to apply based on what has occurred. If we cannot agree on a name, this will become "Anna's ability" as descriptive names must be completely agreed upon in order to be used by Admin's instructions.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:20, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • In the example for a definition I provided it is stated to make (someone or something) abnormally tranquil or sluggish. Is that not what she has done?--OutbackZack 03:26, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • No, she is also capable of making a person unconscious, not just sluggish and while under the effects of her ability, Red Eye was able to make the Kill Squad express rage (not tranquility) and they didn't seem sluggish. She also claims to have had enhanced senses when she first used her ability (chapter 4, Operation Bad Blood). That is more in line with what the Haitian said about being able to read minds while erasing them, but not necessarily the exact same thing.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:41, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • Did not know some of that (said somewhere, note sure if here, that I'm not too familiar with the iStores). Alright then I agree with the name you came up with earlier. Good debate my friend. --OutbackZack 03:46, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • Thanks. I've updated it to neurocognitive deficit for now. I still think the Haitian's and Anna's abilities are the same, but this is a good second choice and the name comes from an episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:05, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • Yeah I saw that you said it was from The Fix, but I'm not recalling it. What point was the name shown?--OutbackZack 04:07, 25 December 2008 (EST)
            • It's on the Mozaic File that Mohinder shows to Nathan.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:19, 25 December 2008 (EST)
          • Woah! since when was 2 people enough to rename something? We got some "Name A kinda sorta can describe Power B, so we'll call this by Name A" logical leaps going on here that just don't seem right. I'm calling for consensus on this. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 13:58, 25 December 2008 (EST)
            • You don't really need a consensus check since this is a descriptive name and one person disagreeing with the name is all it takes to go to Anna's ability if that's what you want. Lobotomization isn't necessarily accurate and doesn't encompass the ability based on what we know, and Ryan, an administrator has said he prefers not to use "mental manipulation". I suggested we use 'neurocognitive deficit' since it has been discussed before for the Haitian's ability and the person who was supporting lobotomization supported the move so that was all the consensus that was necessary. No other names had been suggested.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • User:Shadowulf1 13:46, 25 December 2008 (EST) Wasn't her power already defined as mental manipulation? even if she only has one aspect of it, which she doesn't, it would still be classified as such... right?
          • See above comments by Ryan--being Anna's base ability isn't enough. It would be like saying Rachel Mills has time-space manipulation instead of teleportation without seeing her travel through time first.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Consensus check and argument restaments

ok, just so we can clear things up from the above mess...--SacValleyDweller (talk) 14:04, 25 December 2008 (EST)

  • Can we also clarify: Is this consensus to "change to neurocognitive deficit", since it was split from mental manipulation without consensus, or is this consensus to "merge to mental manipulation"? They seem to be in a dead heat, and which one we're debating makes a big difference. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:36, 26 December 2008 (EST)
    • Saying there is a dead heat is misleading. There is no dead heat as consensus does not work by voting. Also, mental manipulation isn't really an option as it is being considered speculative by Ryan and others (who posted on Talk:Anna) that Anna and the Haitian have the same ability due to her not blocking abilities. I disagree that that should exclude Anna and prefer mental manipulation, but without his agreement there cannot be consensus to move this ability back there. Thus, the options are really neurocognitive deficit, Anna's ability or something else. No one has yet suggested going back to Anna's ability and no one has suggested anything else.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2008 (EST)
    • I'm not planning on getting involved in this until I have a chance to catch up on the iStory (and it will probably be over by then), but I think this should be a special case. Since information was moved without reaching a consensus first, it seems to me this should be vote-based rather than needing a consensus to revert. This is, of course, up to the administrators, but since protocol was not followed initially, it seems unfair to follow it now, imho. --Stevehim 21:54, 26 December 2008 (EST)
      • Voting isn't ever used in determining ability names (if you want to ask for that to change, the best place to ask for a consensus to do so is on Help talk:Naming conventions). There have been prior name moves without consensus that the administrators have supported that either stayed or were changed to something else like the current situation. In this case, there was a consensus on Talk:Anna, including Ryan's opinion, to remove Anna's ability from mental manipulation but that was essentially forum shopping as no notice was made on any ability page that a move was being considered before the move occurred. After the move occurred to lobotomization, I asked for it to be moved back on the mental manipulation talk page and was directed instead to discuss it here. Ryan pointed out here that he didn't feel it was right for Anna's and the Haitian's ability to be named the same and asked for another name. Then, the person who had supported lobotomization and moved the page to that name agreed with me on moving it to "neurocognitive deficit" creating a new consensus so it was moved to the current name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2008 (EST)
        • I don't really want that change; I was just mistaken about what the history was. I didn't realize it was discussed at all before being moved, nor that an administrator was involved. My only point about a vote was that if something gets mvoed without discussion/consensus/administration approval, then the move should be considered void, even if it's not reverted. With that mindframe, I was suggesting that even though this is listed under neurocognitive deficit now, it really should have never been moved from mental manipulation in the first place, and so would not be fair to have to gain a consensus before reverting it back (as that sets a very dangerous precedent...we don't want people moving things and then taking a consensus to move them back, after all  ;)). I only saw the move made and your initial request to have it moved back (which, had there not been discussion on Anna's page, should have happened immediately), but since it was discussed and supported by an administator, it seems valid to me. Thus, I withdraw my suggestion about voting, and plead ignorance on this one.  ;) --Stevehim 23:26, 26 December 2008 (EST)
  • Since I brought this up, the way this whole thing started with this ability always seemed a little fishy for two reasons. One, as mentioned before, no discussion was brought up at the proper place, Talk:Mental manipulation, to perform the split in the first place. It was only brought up at Talk:Anna. Still, I kinda liked the new "lobotomization" page as a whole, so I let it slide and marked everything patrolled. Then came the second reason I brought this up; the flawed logic in the rename from the straight forward naming of this page as "Lobotomization," a name based on Anna's description, to "Neurocognative deficit," based on the premise that said term from the, Genesis files (was it?), not seen since Season One, could describe Anna's ability. The term wasn't used anywhere near it during the iStory (reading from our transcripts of it), nor when Anna was describing it. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    • It's not that it could, SVD, but that neurocognitive deficit does describe Anna's ability as far as we have witnessed it (read the description), that this name has been discussed in prior conversation on the naming of the Haitian's ability, and that lobotomization doesn't fit Anna's ability as far as we know. The reason the Haitian doesn't use this name is due to speculation on the source of his power blocking, but since Anna hasn't been described as having that, we don't have to speculate about it and can use that name. As Ryan pointed out earlier in this discussion, Candice's and Matt's abilities could also be thought of as forms of mental manipulation, but as far as we know they don't have the same ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:56, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    • Based on that, and the fact that I just looked at the "discussion" on Anna's page, I have to agree, and repropose that this needs to be hammered out in a more detailed discussion rather than a consensus. It's extremely speculative to say her ability is neurocognitive deficit, and even moreso to somehow claim that's canon. The only reference I can see is the Mozaic file folder cover, which simply has that name scribbled across it. Unless I'm mistaken, nowhere is this associated with Anna, and nowhere is it even defined as an ability beyond name, so it's speculative to even say it applies to what she can do, as it may mean something else entirely. Further, the file itself is specifically about empathic mimicry, so for all we know the names on the cover are things that Chandra supposed could be mimicked, or things he thought possible and needed scratch paper for, or any number of other things. I can understand moving her ability off the mental manipulation page, and can even understand assigning it lobotomization with a 'description' canonical level, but claiming her ability was referenced in an episode is highly suspect, imo (I'd be surprised if they even knew Anna, or the iStories, existed, back when that was done).
Summing up...this ability should either be renamed to lobotomization with a descriptive canon level, renamed to Anna's ability, or kept here with the canon level being switched to descriptive (as it currently implies that we were told in an episode that this is what the ability is, which we weren't). In any of those cases, I feel this should be discussed and decided upon, sans consensus (otherwise, the debate is essentially over, since it's unlikely the minority is going to convince the majority to change their minds, making a consensus to change it near impossible to achieve). --Stevehim 00:44, 27 December 2008 (EST)
Please hold off Stevehim and read what I said above and read the prior conversation about the term on the Haitian's page. This is not something I dragged up out of the blue, this has been discussed before for the Haitian and the Mozaic file is not just about empathic mimicry. The term is an actual commonly used scientific term in the real world for when parts of the brain are impaired or shut down, which is what Anna does. So it's a common term that was used it the show and it applies to Anna's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:56, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Didn't imply I didn't mean to imply that you brought it up out of the blue, or that I was planning on changing anything. I do see several problems though. First, if the Mozaic file is about other powers, then the description here is very misleading, and should probably be clarified. Second, I couldn't find the term 'neurocognitive deficit' anywhere on the Haitian's talk page. I'm guessing you're talking about the Amnegenesis discussion, which is interesting with regards to the science behind things, and I appreciate that in the real world the term might be used to aptly apply to Anna's ability, but we can't go by real world definitions (at least not in terms of canon). I also don't like the idea that we made a pretty big logical leap...

Anna impairs brain functions
neurocognitive deficit is a term used in the real world to describe impairment of brain functions
neurocognitive deficit was seen on a file folder
therefore it is canonical that Anna's ability is neurocognitive deficit.

Based on that, several other things are called into question (eg - the snake mimicry vs constriction debate, listing parapsychology as a/k/a under telepathy or, prior to Dual, listing it above telepathy since it appeared on two files, etc). My main objections are:

  1. the level of canon we are assigning this is inaccurate, as it was never directly associated with Anna's ability. If we keep this name, it should be assigned level 4, and a Note about how the name appeared on the file should be added to the page.
  2. once the ability was renamed to lobotomization, it should have required a consensus to change it, based on the naming convention rules. This didn't occur, so it's unfair to claim that one needs to happen now, imo (though, despite my apparent fervor, I don't really care that much  ;)).-- Stevehim 01:27, 27 December 2008 (EST)
  • With the Mozaic file, Mohinder was showing Nathan some of his father's research including some powers that he thinks might exist to convince him of what he was saying. He wasn't claiming Peter had those abilities. Also, it isn't being claimed that it's canonical that Anna's ability is called neurocognitive deficit, just that the name is given in a canon source. Similarly, the reference for flight isn't claiming that that Nathan's ability is canonically called flight. Flight is actually a descriptive and common name for the ability that is derived from a canon source, an episode where Peter says he can fly. The power names template is meant only to show what level the source is, not the level of canonicity of the name. Finally, a second consensus did occur when everyone who voiced support for lobotomization voiced support to the new name. There were only a few people, so it was rather quick in forming. As Admin has said previously, a consensus check is not necessary to form consensus. In fact, imho, it only encourages there not to be one. PS: The discussion on neurocognitive deficit is here--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:54, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    • I'm basing this on the assumption that this wasn't discussed on a page I'm unaware of, and was only brought up above. From the point 'neurocogniitive deficit' was mentioned to the point it was changed, only two people voiced an opinion on and OutbackZack. In between, Piemanmoo voiced an objection, but it was to change it back to mental manipulation, which we can't do. On top of that, the timeframe was less than an hour and a half on Christmas, when most of the community was not around. I don't think 2 people within an hour and a half in the middle of Christmas day constitutes a de facto consensus. Granted, you two were the main ones discussing it when it was lobotomization, but that's still a far cry from calling it a consensus, imo. To boot, by your own post, this should be changed to Anna's ability. You said all it takes is one person to object to do that, and we seem to have 9...6 (most of them claiming they saw no consensus) calling for it to return to mental manipulation (which isn't an option), 7 if you count yourself ;); one who wanted to turn it back to lobotomization (to which he was told that isn't an option either); and SVD and I calling for more discussion before going with this name (though considering what you said about the canon box's meaning, I am far less objective to this now).
The way I see it, assuming MM is off the table for good, we have a real world description of what she does + that name on a folder that doesn't directly relate to her vs a descriptive name from the iStory itself. So that's a descriptive name from a near-canon source vs a common name for an ability/unofficial source (bolstered by the fact that the common name was mentioned in canon). I would think that lobotomization would trump ND based on that. At any rate, I think there's been enough doubt cast that we should not be holding to the idea that this cannot be changed without a consensus. That said, I'm still not actually opining one way or the other at the moment as to what it should be named exactly, though I will vote against supplanting the Haitian under mental manipulation, as the evidence is not currently strong enough to support having to go and change all of the Haitian's pages. I am also saying I think we should stick with ND, but reopen discussions sans official consensus to figure out what the best course of action is.  ;) Re: PS: (Thank you for the link) According to that, it seemed like both Ryan and Hardvice were arguing against it because there was no connection to the Haitian, even though it might aptly describe what he could do at the time. Wouldn't that apply here as well? --Stevehim 02:28, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    • you took the words right out of my fingers, Steve, and then some!--SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:52, 27 December 2008 (EST)
      • lol. How much do I owe ya?  ;) --Stevehim 02:56, 27 December 2008 (EST)
First off, it was OutbackZach who did the move to lobotomization, a name which was not explicitly discussed at Talk:Anna. Piemanmoo, like me, had been supporting moving it back to mental manipulation. Since that was (and still is) not possible, and OutbackZach agreed to a new name and was the person to move it originally, and since he and another person who were the only ones to voice an opinion in favor of lobotomization at the time changed their minds to that name, a new consensus had formed. There is no set timeframe for consensus. It can take a minute, an hour and a half, two weeks, or five years for everyone to agree. It's also possible there might not ever be consensus, but in this case I think there has been one in favor of the current name. Granted, it there has been not enough time for everyone to voice their opinion, but consensus continues to be evaluated.

At the current time, none of those wanting the merge back to mental manipulation (including myself) have said they opposed using "neurocognitive deficit" as a second choice. Ryan said the only reason he didn't support this name for the Haitian was because it didn't explain the Haitian's power blocking. That is not a problem for Anna. Hardvice said that there was no direct canon connection between this name and the Haitian, but he clarifies that that is also true of other descriptive names we have used and adds that in those cases we have a source that shows the name corresponds to the ability (the source doesn't have to be in-story). For the Haitian, Hardvice, like Ryan, thought it was speculative to say that the power blocking was caused by just shutting down a portion of someone else's mind, so the term was speculative to him. This is a similar case without that reason for to shout speculation. For Anna, we have its use in numerous legal and medical/scientific sources supporting that the term applies for her ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:47, 27 December 2008 (EST)

I'm fairly certain Ryan's going to voice his views on this this evening.

What other descriptive names have we used for abilities that have no in-story conection to the abilities they describe? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 13:22, 27 December 2008 (EST)

There are several, including "body insertion", "plant growth", "elasticity", "forcefield projection", "luminescence", and "omnilingualism".--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:51, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Didn't imply (part 2) EDIT: Much of the following no longer matters due to the consensus result section, but I'll leave it here for the heck of it.  ;)

--Stevehim 13:36, 27 December 2008 (EST)

--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:58, 27 December 2008 (EST)

--Stevehim 13:41, 28 December 2008 (EST)

--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2008 (EST)

  • Just a quick reply to one point for clarification (so I'll abandon the tables this time). The point I was trying to illustrate with mediumship wasn't that the ability name has to be related in meaning to the ability, but that it should be directly linked to it in-story, if used. Otherwise, it belongs in the Notes section, as initially proposed in the mental manipulation discussion. (Imo)If we go with the name it should be specified that, though we are calling her ability neurocognitive deficit, and neurocognitive deficit was named in the show on the folder, there is not necessarily a connection between the two. --Stevehim 01:08, 29 December 2008 (EST)
    • I think you mean that it should be noted on the ability page that Mohinder has not explicitly referred to her ability as "neurocognitive deficit", and that it was just a term he used whose meaning matches her ability. I think it's okay to say that they are connected in meaning. Does that sound good?--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:21, 29 December 2008 (EST)
      • Sounds good.  :) --Stevehim 01:47, 29 December 2008 (EST)
        • Ok, I added that to the notes section. If the wording's not okay, feel free to correct it.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:45, 29 December 2008 (EST)
  • Wow, collapsible tables for comments. Hmm, that's new! :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:09, 28 December 2008 (EST)
    • It's nice that it cuts down on the scrolling. :)--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2008 (EST)

Merge back with Mental manipulation

  1. was there any consensus to split it apart from MM in the first place? Why do we need one to correct it?--Piemanmoo 20:17, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  2. If there wasn't a consensus before splitting the article, I say we merge it back before deciding on any further course of action. --Ciwey 21:42, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  3. Psilaq Remake 21:50, 25 December 2008 (EST) No reason not to re-merge.
  4. Same reasons as the people above. --Mike N. 18:39, 26 December 2008 (EST)
  5. Yamawhata? 21:42, 26 December 2008 (EST) If nothing else, move MM to this one instead. I still think Neurocognitive Deficit provides not only a description, but a mechanism for the Haitian's power. I haven't yet seen any good reason to separate the two other than 'Anna has not wiped someone's memory.' That should be a good enough reason to split Knox's ability from enhanced strength - Knox hasn't used his ability without someone being afraid. Besides, we have plenty of examples of people with the same ability doing things that others can't, but we never disputed those, did we? If we're going to use a level 5 name (description) we made up, I don't think we can differentiate between two abilities which both fit our description - this manipulates the mind, so it is mental manipulation plain and simple. --Yamawhata? 02:42, 27 December 2008
    • Didn't even notice mental manipulation was not a canon source. I support this proposal. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 02:08, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    There was no consensus to split it in the first place, and the description given by Mohinder fits the profile of Mental Manipulation. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:24, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  6. --laughingdevilboy 10:18, 30 December 2008 (EST) (In light of new GN)
  7. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:42, 30 December 2008 (EST) Adding this back in again, second choice to Neurocog.
  8. --MiamiVolts (talk) 14:07, 30 December 2008 (EST) (In light of new GN, see comments below that both people's ability has now exhibited all of the same effects)
  9. ----HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 01/14/2009 17:06 (EST) Both Anna and the Haitian do Mental manipulation as their ability. Their level of experience and type of mental manipulation are both different and similar, but so was Matt and Maury and Niki and Knox not too long ago...and they've always fallen under the unbrella of Telepathy and Enhanced strength respectively.
  10. --Steely McBeam - (talk) 12:30, 11 March 2009 (EDT) Exact same reason at HDS.

Merge the Haitian's ability here

  1. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:37, 27 December 2008 (EST) In light of Yamawhata?'s argument and bits listed elsewhere on this page.

Keep as Neurocognitive deficit

  1. --NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 14:15, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  2. --Max 15:58, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    --laughingdevilboy 17:47, 25 December 2008 (EST) In light of new GN
  3. --Dracomaster4 20:38, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  4. --Litox 14:20, 26 December 2008 (EST)
  5. --Henryp
  6. --Witchy2006 15:52, 26 December 2008 (EST)
  7. --Ikkian 17:19, 26 December 2008 (EST)

Keep as Lobotomization #-- laughingdevilboy 16:16, 25 December 2008 (EST)

  • Lobotomization isn't an option since it does not accurately encompass her ability based on what we know. Would you rather her ability be called just "Anna's ability"? That is the only other option at this time unless you suggest another.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:43, 25 December 2008 (EST)
    • sorry I didn't realise, if that's the case I will add my name to Neurocognitive deficit --laughingdevilboy 17:47, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • The term itself is wrong, regardless of accuracy. A lobotomy is a specific type of surgery. This is not. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:24, 25 December 2008 (EST)
  • --SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:56, 27 December 2008 (EST) this is based on Anna's, and therefore canon's, description of the ability's effects, and it should have remained this for a few days more until we had more voices on the matter.
    • Anna's near-canon (not canon) description is that her ability works like a lobotomy, not as one, and it doesn't fit what we know about her ability as I detailed above. It should have been discussed first at mental manipulation for a few days before it was moved, but it wasn't so the move should have been undone. Would you rather have the name be Anna's ability? I don't think lobotomization is an option.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:58, 27 December 2008 (EST)
      • OK, near canon, then. Anna's ability would be my second choice at this point in time. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 13:09, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    • There were no voices to move it to "lobotomization" to begin with, and the detail she gave was a near-canon description, not a canon definition. If we don't call Daphne a "speedster", there's no reason we need to call Anna's ability "lobotomization". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:48, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Consensus result

  • Since SacValleDweller would rather have lobotomization or Anna's ability over the current name, I think an administrator will likely move this to "Anna's ability" since there is no longer consensus for the current descriptive name. However, I'll leave it up to an administrator to decide whether or not there was a consensus for the current name before SVD's opinion and perform the move, if needed. I think there was consensus, but there are those who are saying that a certain amount of time and people must contribute for there to be consensus. If that is deemed so, what is the threshold for how much time and how many people that must voice 100% agreeing opinions before it can be called consensus?--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:29, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    • I didn't exactly mean to say that we should have exact minimums for consensus, but just that a few hours on a day when most people aren't around is probably too short. As for how many people are needed to voice opinions, I don't think that can be quantified either. If, in 35 minutes, a bunch of people have voiced their opinions and hammered out an agreement, that's reasonable, imo. If, on the other hand, a week has gone by and nobody but two or three people seem willing to discuss the issue, and they agree, that seems fair as well. I think it just needs to be a generally reasonable amount of time for a community discussion to have occurred (even if it never does). --Stevehim 13:54, 27 December 2008 (EST)
    • In light of several arguments made on the page, I added on option to merge the Haitian's ability here, since a lot of people prefer "neurocognitive deficit", a lot of people want the two merged, and those who want the merge seem okay with merging them here. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:31, 27 December 2008 (EST)
      • Ryan has already said he opposes moving the Haitian's ability to "neurocognitive deficit" in the previous discussion for the reason that it is speculative to assume it can explain the Haitian's power blocking.--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:35, 27 December 2008 (EST)
        • That issue could probably be revisited due to new information. Based on Mohinder's comment about where the powers originate from, shutting down a portion of someone's mind, namely the part that sends a signal to the adrenal glands, could explain the power blocking ability. --Stevehim 13:40, 27 December 2008 (EST)
          • Yes, I think that is still his opinion but he will likely confirm it himself. In any case, Ryan said already in this discussion on this page that he thought that Anna's and the Haitian's ability should not be listed on the same page.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:22, 27 December 2008 (EST)
            • With the information we have right now, I'm not convinced the Haitian and Anna have the same ability. I'm not sure "neurocognitive deficit" would be the right term to describe what she can do (it seems more like just trying to forcefully match a term with a definition), but it's probably better than "lobotomizing". I don't really have an opinion on either of the term "neurocognitive deficit" itself--I mean, it's not my favorite, but I wouldn't "vote" against it. However, since it's not a canon/near-canon name, but a descriptive name, it would need to have consensus. I don't think we're at a point right now where we can say whether or not we have consensus. I'd wait until Tuesday to see if we have any more information from Red Eye, Part 2. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:39, 27 December 2008 (EST)
              • You're right, the naming of this ability did seem forced, and that was another facet of my objection to the naming of this ability to "neurocognitive deficit" in the first place.--SacValleyDweller (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2008 (EST)
            • Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying Anna and the Haitian have the same ability, just that with the new information, an argument could be made to move the Haitian off of mental manipulation to here, as the ability now could cover all aspects of his ability. I don't really think this is a good idea, since mental manipulation works for him too and would be a real pain to change; I just wanted to point out that the debate could be reopened due to new information. As to not knowing the mechanism behind what the Haitian does...that applies to almost every ability. --Stevehim 13:41, 28 December 2008 (EST)
              • Yeah, I got that that's what you were saying. And I agree with you, I don't really think this is a good idea, either. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:09, 28 December 2008 (EST)

new gn

In Red Eye Part 2, Anna mentions that she has gained contorl over her ability, and erases the memories of two guards. That, and the opening blurb describes her power as "mind altering". Mind=mental and altering=manipulation. Based on these two things, I think we should have ample evidence that Anna and the Hatian have the same power.--Piemanmoo 06:14, 30 December 2008 (EST)

  • I agree with Piemanmoo that they should be merged, but please no one jump and move this yet since the main reason they were split in the first place is not because of the lack of memory erasing but the lack of power blocking. I'm not sure if it is clear enough to everyone that it was Anna who stopped the guards' primal rage, and that Red Eye didn't just decide to stop using his ability. It's clear enough to me.--MiamiVolts (talk) 06:37, 30 December 2008 (EST)
    • I think in light of the new GN that it is obvious that Anna's power is Mental Manipulation. I think we may have been a little hasty in deciding that it was different, I think I should have waited to see both parts of the GN before I made a comment. --laughingdevilboy 10:17, 30 December 2008 (EST)
      • I agree on the merge back, Anna has now shown two out of three effects of the Haitian's abilities: shut down brain functions and erase memories. And considering she mentioned she's getting better with her ability, this could mean she'll be dampening powers soon. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:41, 30 December 2008 (EST)
        • Agreed on the above. As an added bonus, the fact that she was able to wipe their memory and knock them out without touching them implies she is actually stronger with that aspect of the power than the Haitian. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:55, 30 December 2008 (EST)
          • I disagree. I see the new graphic novel as even stronger evidence that Anna does not have the same ability as the Haitian. The Haitian never killed anybody with his power, whether he had poor control or good control over it. Anna has never blocked anybody's abilities, even when she wanted Red Eye to stop using his power. I believe Anna and the Haitian can do similar things: they can both make people forget things. But I believe even Arthur made Angela forget things with telepathy (Villains). And we've seen other characters alter the minds others. Sure, Anna can make people forget things, but we don't know that she has the same ability as the Haitian. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:36, 30 December 2008 (EST)
            • I believe that the "I have blood on my hands" comment was a reference to her using her making easier for Ricardo to use his abilities, she didn't directly kill anyone, but she considers herself guilty for facilitating it. And Arthur also used the Haitian's ability on Hiro, that confirmed by BTE. By the way, are there going to be any interviews of that kind anytime soon? This could be a way to settle this matter. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:42, 30 December 2008 (EST)
              • In Villains, Arthur used telepathy on Angela and made her forget some conversations. Small point that doesn't have much to do with this conversation, but I just wanted to point out that there are other abilities that will make a person forget things. The Haitian doesn't corner the market on erasing memories. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:12, 30 December 2008 (EST)
                • Well not completely, Linderman asked what wasn't in her mind, but if you look at Angela said, the more accurate question would be what's not happening in her mind. Angela said that Arthur had something big to do, and that it had to be done, she said herself she couldn't quite remember what. To me, that can come across as him blocking the memories instead of simply erasing them, if he had erased, Angela couldn't have said the things she did. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:21, 30 December 2008 (EST)

Yeah, I've been wondering when the final BTE for Volume Three is going to be. Anyway, let's take a look at what each person has been able to do:

The Haitian:
Three shown facets for each (making humans into zombies, knocking humans unconscious, erasing memories) are nearly identical between them, the only difference being the method (remote action versus touch). The only difference is that the Haitian can also block abilities (though that could be attributed to her still learning how to use her power). In addition, while Anna has not killed anyone with her power, it is possible that the Haitian killed Baron Samedi using his. So we're in sort of a bind, where a majority of each's powers are in fact identical, but there are aspects one has done that the other has not. As a final note, there are variants on powers that are combined already. Take Matt and Maury's telepathy. Maury himself says "It just starts at mindreading, and then it becomes so much more." While Maury had more aspects of telepathy under his control (while Matt was very specifically only mindreading) they were considered one power (a power that is STILL evolving -- note that Persuasion and Illusion eventually became effective facets of Telepathy). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:54, 30 December 2008 (EST)
  • Added note after the recent edit: It would appear both characters have some degree of control over four nearly identical aspects of this ability. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:40, 30 December 2008 (EST)
    • Actually, the Haitian did mess with people from a distance in It Takes a Village --Yamawhata? 12:57, 30 December 2008 (EST)
      • Ah damn, forgot about that. Edited the above bit to reflect that. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:11, 30 December 2008 (EST)
  • The Haitian also made Matt Parkman unconscious remotely (One Giant Leap), and as far as we know, neither Anna or the Haitian has killed anyone with their power. As for blocking abilities, it does look as though she blocked Red Eye's control over the Ithaca security officers. What are we missing?--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:20, 30 December 2008 (EST)
    • I wasn't sure whether or not to add remote knocking out, since there was some speculation as to whether the Haitian knocked him out, or if Parkman tried so hard to hear his thoughts that he simply passed out. I'll add it though. And good point on Anna pushing back Red Eye's power to "release" the men. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:40, 30 December 2008 (EST)
      • Anna still hasn't shown to be capable of recalling memories like the Haitian, but, seriously, it appears that they both share the same ability. One could argue that Anna makes bubbles appear, but that's probably a GN "effect"; for example, the sky turns red when Ricardo uses his power, but "skycolourkinesis" is not an aspect of primal rage.--Referos 14:19, 30 December 2008 (EST)
        • Right, in the case of memory, all that should matter is that she is erasing memories. The Haitian also reads memories, but only while he is erasing them.--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:29, 30 December 2008 (EST)
          • The bubble effect doesn't bother me at all. Even the reading of memories seems like an advanced function of erasing memories, which I can buy is something that either Anna can develop or is specific to the Haitian. But I just don't buy that she can block the powers of others. She never stopped Claire from using her ability. She never stopped Red Eye from using his ability. She made the guards stop shooting, but it appears she did that by lobotomizing them or altering their minds or whatever it is that she did to them, not to Ricardo. She's never stopped anybody from using their abilities as far as I can tell. The way I read it, the Haitian and Anna have similar abilities that accomplish similar things, but they don't have the same ability. I will email J.T. Krul and David Wohl and ask them about Anna's power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:33, 30 December 2008 (EST)
            • Thanks for contacting the writers. That's likely the best route for verification. As to the questioning of whether Anna has power blocking, I will point out, that imho, it shouldn't matter how Anna blocked Red Eye's ability to influence the security officers but only that she did block it using only her ability. Also, recall that in all the previous instances where we she used her ability in combination with Red Eye's, it strengthened the effect of his ability. If, in Part 2, she was not blocking the effects of Red Eye's ability somehow, the security officers should have become more violent, not less.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:03, 30 December 2008 (EST)
              • I think it very much does matter how Anna blocked Red Eye's ability, especially if we're using that to determine whether or not Anna has the same ability as somebody else. If she hit them in the head with a baseball bat and knocked the guards out, we wouldn't consider her to have blocked any abilities. Her ability didn't block Red Eye's ability--it knocked out the guards. Also, her ability never stopped Claire from regenerating, yet the Haitian has shown that he can stop a regenerator (I Am Become Death). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:12, 30 December 2008 (EST)
                • But Anna didn't stop Red Eye's ability's effects with a bat or some other means, she did so using her mental power alone. And also, I would point out that Anna has shown previously in the iStory that she is able to selectively apply her ability. In Part 2, Anna didn't erase Claire's memory of the incident, so why would we assume that her ability was applied to Claire at all? The Haitian has also selectively applied his ability. For instance, he let Elle fire lightning bolts at Adam while simultaneously blocking Peter's abilities in Four Months Ago, and more recently in Duel, Sylar was able to use his telekinesis while the Haitian blocked only Arthur's powers.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2008 (EST)
                  • Nathan was also able to fly in front of the Haitian (Hiros). But I don't know if that's a case of the Haitian "allowing" them to use their abilities, or a case of the Haitian not being able to block certain abilities. The Haitian has blocked a regenerator every time they've been around him, as far as I can tell. He's never "selected" not to use it....I don't know, we're getting kind of theoretical at this point, and it's just not very clear one way or the other. I think it's possible they have the same power--but I think it's just as possible that they don't. Ultimately, I need clarification, either from an in-world source that shows more clearly that they have the same ability (Anna clearly blocking the abilities of another person, for instance) or clarification from a writer. I just put out two emails. Hopefully at least one writer will respond. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:47, 30 December 2008 (EST)
                    • It would be really funny if one writer confirmed that they have the same ability while the other said they don't.--Referos 15:59, 30 December 2008 (EST)
                    • The Haitian has been around the regenerator known as Adam multiple times, yet never blocked his ability, right? If he had blocked Adam's ability, Adam would have turned to dust from old age like when Arthur took his ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:53, 30 December 2008 (EST
  • Not necessarily, the Haitian's power is not definitive. He blocked Daphne in Germany, if it was a complete block, she wouldn't have been able to walk, yet she did. Matt has gotten something from Bennet's mind when the Haitian was screening him twice. Arthur managed to fight his way against the Haitian. We don't how it would have happened with Adam, perhaps he'd block the healing aspect and not the anti age aspect. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:03, 30 December 2008 (EST)
    • In that situation, the Haitian didn't know Daphne had an ability as far as we know so it's likely just a generalized protective field and not focused on her. In addition, Daphne was not right next to the Haitian and approached him only when he was knocked out so I guess you could say that the distance dampened the effect. In the cases with Adam, the Haitian presumably knew who Adam was and of his ability so he could selectively choose not to block his ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:16, 30 December 2008 (EST)

1) With new evidence, I say this belongs back at Mental manipulation.
With regards to "Anna can't do everything that the Haitian can do," Consider these similar precedents:

2) With regards to the Haitian and the regeners, I dont think it is possible for the regen TO be blocked by Mental manip. Have we ever seen a case where the Haitian was around and Claire or Adam was injured and could not regenerate? The only cases where regen may be blocked would be cases where regen is not the native ability of the target; like Arthur, who had to go get regen; and Peter, who mimics it. In all likelihood, they have to go through the extra step of remembering a trigger (even something reflexive) for the regen to kick in (Peter and the glass shard notwithstanding, as Clare was there for Peter's body to scan and mimic from). THIS is what would be blocked in those cases. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 17:23, 30 December 2008 (EST)

    • I agree 100% with SacValleyDweller. All our evidence shows that the Haitian can only block mental powers (telepathy, empathic mimicry) and not physical powers (induced radioactivity, rapid cell regeneration). Since it has been suggested in the iStory that Primal Rage works via pheremones, it would be logical to deduce that Ricardo's power is a physical one that cannot be blocked by MM. --Piemanmoo 18:01, 30 December 2008 (EST)
      • He blocked Daphne's super speed and Hiro's space-time manipulation (though whether STM is mental or physical is somewhat unclear). --Stevehim 18:08, 30 December 2008 (EST)
        • The Haitian blocked Peter and Future Peter's regeneration in I Am Become Death (see the image). He has also blocked super speed, enhanced strength, and sound manipulation, which are physical powers. But no matter how many examples we come up with against or in support of them having the same powers, and no matter the logical leaps we make (yes, saying that Ricardo's power is a physical one that cannot be blocked by mental manipulation is very logical), we have no confirmation that Anna and the Haitian have the same power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:11, 30 December 2008 (EST)
          • Shouldn't common sense dicate that they have the same power? Is there really a chance the writers would give Anna all the capabilities of the Haitian, but make it another power altogether? That's like suggesting Claire and Adam have different powers because we haven't seen her not age. Sure, common sense tells us they are the same power, but we dont have confirmation.--Piemanmoo 18:22, 30 December 2008 (EST)
            • I agree, we are really splitting hairs at this point. We have a single point of argument against versus a veritable stockpile of information suggesting otherwise. Why does it matter which powers the Haitian has blocked? Anna's only had the opportunity to block two powers thus far, Claire's and Red Eye's. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 18:57, 30 December 2008 (EST)
              • I think that the Haitian and Anna, due to their mind-meddling powers, only prevent the concentration/willpower required to activate an ability, they do not block it per se like the eclipse. For instance, the Haitian could block Daphne's conscious acceleration, but not the passive effect of her ability, which allows her to walk normally despite her disease. He couldn't block Nathan's flight because it was a reflexive, instinctive impulse, a literal "fight or flight" moment when he was about to be bagged and tagged. He couldn't block Ted's in Company Man because it was activated, again, impulsively when he was shot. He cannot block Claire's regeneration, because it is a passive ability that requires no activation, but he can block Peter from regenerating, since he has to consciously recall the power. So, I don't think the power blocking aspect should be a factor preventing us from merging the two abilities.--Referos 19:50, 30 December 2008 (EST)
              • Richard, though it's a moot point, Anna also had the opportunity to try to block Mohinder's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:01, 30 December 2008 (EST)
                • We don't know that the Haitian was unable to block Nathan or Ted, just that he didn't. --Stevehim 20:30, 30 December 2008 (EST)

Rene can also see memories, this is seen in it Takes a Village. I can't see him remotely Knock a humans unconscious in the gallery of mental manipulation in season 1, homecoming or one giant leap. what abilities does Anna block.[50000JH 17:54, 25 December 2009 (EST)]

From JT

Got an email back from J.T. Krul. Not much information to help us name the power. I asked, "Could you tell me anything more about Anna's ability? Does that mean her power is like the Haitian's? Does she erase memories? Can she block others' abilities?" He said, "As for Anna's abilities, she can shut down the upper brain functions of those around...hence the lobotomizing comment." Hmm. Doesn't help much, does it? :) Hopefully I'll hear back from David Wohl sometime soon. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:18, 1 January 2009 (EST)

  • ...d'oh. That was basically the info we'd already been given, oy :P --Ricard Desi (t,c) 22:39, 1 January 2009 (EST)
  • I think this is a good time for a facepalm. So... *facepalm* Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:41, 1 January 2009 (EST)
  • ...If any of those GN writers would just take a little time each week to see the effects their work has on our site, it would be a better world. </frustration> --Yamawhata? 23:25, 1 January 2009 (EST)
    • Speaking of getting info each week, anyone happen to know why Behind the Eclipse #12 still has yet to get posted? --Ricard Desi (t,c) 23:30, 1 January 2009 (EST)
      • Though they never said so, I think the BTE's are not being posted during the hiatus.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:41, 2 January 2009 (EST)
        • Oy, I hope they do one more, they seemed to be implying there was (at least) another one at the end of #11. Guess we'll have to wait and see. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 23:44, 2 January 2009 (EST)
        • Maybe we should just send them another email and say "We'd like to know, does Anna have the same power as the Haitian? Yes or no."--Piemanmoo 00:26, 6 January 2009 (EST)

From David Wohl

Hey all. Some good news--well, good information, at least. I got an email back from David Wohl today. I asked him pretty much the same questions I asked JT Krul. He said, "With regard to Anna, as far as I know, she has the ability to sort of short circuit people's minds. At first she was only able to go full bore and her victims were permanently disabled with what amounted to an overwhelming psionic blast, but now, as she studies more, she's finding she has more control over her power and can make the effects only temporary. In my mind, she didn't erase people's memories (unlike the Haitian), they just didn't remember what happened because the event was so traumatic, like people who have brain injuries never remember the accident. I think that as she gains more focus and understanding, she could pinpoint different areas of the victim's brain and cause different effects, but that's just me! The Haitian seems to have much more control over his power than Anna does. She's more raw." Very good information. Thanks, David! -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:02, 6 January 2009 (EST)

  • Thanks David! So is that good enough for you to let us move this back to mental manipulation, Ryan?--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2009 (EST)
    • I think David was pretty specific about how Anna's ability is different from the Haitian's ability, that she never erased any memories, and that the memory loss was due to being involved in a traumatic situation, not an ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2009 (EST)
      • This doesn't really help us much. All we have is a writer telling us that his personal opinion is that Anna's ability is not the same as the Haitian's yet, but maybe later she could develop hers to be the same. (Sounds kinda the same as telepathy to me.) I'm not sure his opinion carries the same weight as an explicit declaration (and he was pretty specific that this was just an opinion) but what he says about 'permanently disabling victims' because she didn't have enough control...isn't this exactly what the Haitian did the first time his ability manifested? --Yamawhata? 19:35, 6 January 2009 (EST)
        • He's pretty much saying that Anna and the Hatian are at different levels of control with the same power, but I can see how someone could see that as saying their powers might be different. Ugh, getting a straight answer from writers is like getting blood from a stone. I for one hope we can give them a question that the can only answer straight-out. "Hey David, sorry to bug you again, but everyone wants to have one question settled once and for all. Do anna and the hatian have the same power?". It'd be nice if they could answer that, and save us all the hassle of squabbiling over it.--Piemanmoo 19:50, 6 January 2009 (EST)
          • Yeah, Piemanmoo is right. David wasn't specific at all, though I was hoping the information he provided about Anna's ability would be enough to change both Ryan's and others' minds. Oh well, maybe J.T. will reply and we can get some more clarification.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2009 (EST)

This is ridiculous

Why has this not been re-merged yet? Both powers do exactly the same thing, except one person hasn't shown one of the aspects. Even if in the next graphic novel we find out that Anna can suppress people's powers, that still wont be enough to merge it back will it? It's unbeliveable, you might as well give Adam's power it's own page because Claire hasn't shown the anti-aging aspects. This is retarded. --Piemanmoo 12:19, 14 January 2009 (EST)

I agree, to be honest. We've had a confirmation (albeit not exactly a ringing one), so I really think it should be merged, again.--IotV 12:40, 14 January 2009 (EST)

I believe that we have a situation that these two powers are similar but different. Kind of like the enhanced strength situation. The Haitian has been shown to use his power only once without touch and when he did that he wiped all of the people's minds completely. Yet they were just zombies walking around not comatose. Now Anna has been shown to use her power without contact if I remember correctly every time she has used it. Anna's power, as said by one of the writers, that it shuts down the upper brain functions. When she used her power in the beginning she put people in a comatose state not in a zombie state two very similar states but different. Also Anna makes people pass out without contact if the Haitian and her had the same power but the Haitian is just more experienced with the power wouldn't you think that he wouldn't risk touching people to knock them out and just do it without contact if they had the same power. Two powers similar and some of the same aspects but different don't you think?--Iceman 12:56, 14 January 2009 (EST)

There is only one Enhanced Strength page, and it's plausible that Anna simply is more powerful than the Haitain. And didn't the Haitain knock someone out without touching them in The Eclipse, Part Two?--IotV 13:06, 14 January 2009 (EST)

I understand there is only one enhanced strength page bad example. Better example Hiro and Rachel both can teleport but Hiro can do other things that Rachel can't. If it is the same power the why would one that has known about and used the power longer be weaker doesn't make sense. There aren't degrees of a power unless it is experience. Also don't remember him ever knocking anyone out without contact. Might be wrong but I stand by that they can do the some of the same things but are different abilities.--Iceman 13:14, 14 January 2009 (EST)

Both Anna and the Haitian have displayed uses of the four aspects of this power. Anna has always used it remotely, while the Haitian tends to use it through direct contact. Different means to the same end (Niki doesn't need fear to get strong, but her and Knox both have enhanced strength). And who are we to say that experience determines the strength of a power? Peter and Sylar pick up on it pretty damn quick, and show the proficiency of the person they took it from. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:07, 14 January 2009 (EST)

  • I know of no confirmation of Anna using the ability to erase people's minds. David Wohl said that she "sort of short circuit people's minds" and that in his mind, "she didn't erase people's memories". He was specific that her ability was not like the Haitian's and that people "didn't remember what happened because the event was so traumatic." That doesn't sound like the Haitian's mind erasing at all.
    I know of no confirmation that Anna has blocked anybody's ability. Claire was able to use her ability in front of Anna, and so was Red Eye. If she can block abilities, she has not yet demonstrated it. Until she does so, it's not confirmed.
    Ultimately, it sounds like Anna and the Haitian have similar abilities, but not the same ability. If they do have the same ability (like, if they are at different levels of the same ability), that fact hasn't been confirmed. We shouldn't jump to conclusions, especially in a case that has evidence against the conclusion being drawn. I know that makes people upset and I'm well aware that I'm in the minority here, but until we have confirmation of the powers being the same (and not just similar, or not just accomplishing some of the same things), we shouldn't merge the two pages. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:58, 14 January 2009 (EST)
    • IMO the bigger problem that is rising here, is not really that they do/dont have the same power, but that the haitian's power is named is such a very generic, umbrellish way, that it makes it natural for most to want Anna placed under that naming convention; because she fits it (Mental Manipulation) as much as he does. Perhaps if the Haitian's power's name was more specific (memory and power blocking ability) or whatever, it would prevent the conflict over Anna's name. Just my observation. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 01/15/2009 09:07 (EST)
      • I agree with you, HDS. Anna certainly does a form of mental manipulation. She also does not have the same power as the Haitian. I'm not sure of another name for the Haitian's ability other than "the Haitian's ability" though. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:48, 15 January 2009 (EST)
        • Why not memory manipulation for the Haitian? He manipulates their memory to prevent them from being able to access their abilities or to remember things. Covers both bases, and makes his power less generic and more specific, since we have folks now, and may have more in the future, who do other different types of "mental manipulation". It's just too generic a term to keep on one specific ability now. I'm going to nominate his power page's name be changed to a more specific and less generic memory manipulation name. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 01/15/2009 11:22 (EST)
          • Let's go back to the concept of switching this page with MM for a minute. When the Haitian was introduced, there was a group of people (myself among them) arguing that Neurocognitive Deficit should be the name for his ability because, frankly, there was nothing else it could possibly be referring to. That seems to have been a good enough reason to name this page ND, although as I recall it wasn't good enough then. But look at the timeline - Anna wasn't around when ND was 'invented' if you will, and neither was her ability. If we are to argue that they are separate, surely ND should be applied to the Haitian's ability rather than Anna's; since Anna's ability didn't exist at the time the term ND was provided to us, it should not be used for her ability. MM, on the other hand, is a community-created name, which as I recall not many people thought described the Haitian's ability at all, but could not come up with a better name for it. --Yamawhata? 16:57, 15 January 2009 (EST)
            • I don't think "neurocognitive deficit" should be used for either ability. We don't know to what power the Mozaic file was referring. I think this page should be called "lobotomization" and the Haitian's ability page should be called "mental manipulation". Yes, it's a broad term that could describe the powers of many others, but I don't think it needs to change. I think people just need to realize that Anna also manipulates minds, but she does not have the same power as the Haitian. In a similar vein, Matt can cast illusions using telepathy, but he does not have Candice's power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2009 (EST)
  • I know I am too late, but it bothers me that this "deficit" cannot be the name of her power, it is the damage, the "deficitation", so at least it should be called Neurocognitive impairment... --Juba 12:01, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

iStory update

So, who's up to it? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:50, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

Ability Portal

Is the only thing keeping this page from being in the evolutions ability portal the fact that the only images came from a graphic novel? --Elemental Manipulator [ U | T | C ] - When in doubt, ask BTE 02:33, 28 April 2009 (EDT)

  • It isn't listed because abilities that appear in the graphic novels are automatically excluded from being listed on the Evolutions' portal. Graphic novel content is ranked higher than Evolutions' content.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:44, 28 April 2009 (EDT)
    • Then wouldn't Primal rage be a gn ability instead of an evolutions ability? --Elemental Manipulator [ U | T | C ] - When in doubt, ask BTE 02:48, 28 April 2009 (EDT)
      • Primal rage is an exception because it was demonstrated with a live-action sequence, which means it trumps gn's. If the gn contained a photograph of Ricardo using his ability that wasn't drawn or painted, then his ability would revert to a gn ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:07, 28 April 2009 (EDT)