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Talk:Freezing/Archive 3

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Really Needed? Really?

This is about, the image of Tracy turning from water into herself. I don't think this should be in the article since it doesn't really have anything to do with freezing.--Scorvi12 03:39, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

  • It's pretty obvious that the woman in An Invisible Thread was Tracy, and her ability is freezing. So until her ability is changed, this is where the example belongs.--Laudo 20:20, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

THE Discussion. Ability Development, or New Power?

Lets get this over with. Personally I think what makes the most logical sense is that Tracy's ability has always been what we are seeeing, some sort of water control. Making it a seperate ability from freezing and water mimicry altogether. We know from other character like Ted, Matt Parkman, Jr., Peter, and others that abilities are affected by the mindset and emotions of the user. So Tracy was simply unable to access the other aspects of her ability (rather than these being new aspects) when she was a "colder" person. Micah comes, inspires her, she "warms" up to him, and now she can use this part of her power (which will likely lead to her being able to control and become steam as well). Some of you might not like it, but this is how abilities have been written since the beginning. They have always been emotion and personality based. I vote we create a new article for this ability. It seems only hurtful to leave the topic undiscussed IN the articles for the most part, as this is more likely to be an answer someone is seeking since it was one of the cliffhangers from the finale. --Action Figure 13:01, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

  • I agree, I think Tracy's ability has always been something other than that, but she could only access the freezing part of it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:47, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

An Invisible Thread

So over at Talk:Tracy Strauss, the consensus has been reached that the woman in the finale was Tracy. So, until her ability is changed (if it ever is), can't we mention in her section that she can turn into water now? We have an image of it in the examples, so why not mention it? IT was the 'big' cliffhanger of the season, so no doubt people will want answers, and the may come here to get them. --Laudo 12:28, 6 May 2009 (EDT)

Water mimicry

It's not the same ability as freezing. The last image with Tracy's splashy return should not be there. -- Altes 13:21, 6 May 2009 (EDT)

  • See above. Tracy's ability is listed as Freezing for now, and this was an example of whatever her ability is. So until her listing is changed, the image should stay, in my opinion. --Laudo 17:03, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
    • We are not even sure it's Tracy. I know, I know, we have discussed it before, but... -- Altes 11:34, 7 May 2009 (EDT)
      • Every page with talk relevant to the discussions has at least one post with a confirmation that it is Tracy. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:03, 7 May 2009 (EDT)
        • Its an odd ability, they appear to be based on emotional status or mental status at points. Tracy was an Ice Queen and only knew how to be cold, but when Mica talked to her she realized that she did not have to be such a person. In that way she found a new way to use her ability. Water mimicry? probably not the best name, it is temperature based but with turning into a liquid it could be seen as changing of states. The human body is naturally solid but it is made up mainly of water. Using her ability she is able to turn her entire body into water as well as into Ice. Maybe we will see her turn into a gas at one point but so far she has moved from solid to liquid. Might be matter manipulation. If it had something to do with temperature I would think she could have broken out of the heat prison due to her sweating. --DontEatRawHagis 00:28, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
          • Matter manipulation is definitely out of the table, it would mean she can manipulate everything there is, everything that is matter. Her ability is clearly restricted to water, even if in its three states. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:13, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
        • Just looked at the wikipedia pages for freezing and melting they can be called Crystallization and an increase in Molecular Vibrations respectively. She has the power to cause Crystallization in both herself and others(ie freezing) but seems now only to cause an increase in Molecular Vibrations in herself, sort of how Alex Mac in that Nickelodeon show could turn into a puddle. MAybe these will help discern a new name for her ability. --DontEatRawHagis 13:05, 10 May 2009 (EDT)

I miss the old good Sylar

He was so good and badass with freezing... -- Altes 06:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

  • That he was...Season 1 Sylar was pretty much the most badass villain on television. I think it was because he was surrounded in a lot of mystery. Now that they've delved into his life, he's become common and to well known. I think they should have killed him off in the first season. It would have saved him from "jumping the shark". -Vampirate68 20:32, 10 July 2009 (EDT)
    • Well, maybe they should have not. Sylar's return was brilliant. It was Volume Three that ruined everything, but now... Can't wait for Volume Five, huh? -- Altes 02:09, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
      • I agree with you Altes, V3 Sylar wasn't the greatest, but V5 should be pretty cool.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 02:16, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
      • :) -- Altes 09:59, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
        • V2 Sylar was pretty good as well. The whole not having powers thing was pretty cool too. Maybe they should have had him return in the end of V2, but just made him dissipear again, becoming a guest star again. I think it would have made his character mysterious again. V3 Sylar was just too wimpy. -Vampirate68 09:12, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
          • Having an invincible villain is cool, but it should not last for too long. Arthur was killed off. Samson, I believe, used to be very powerful. Linda Tavara was killed. But Sylar lives no matter what. But, like I said, can't wait until Volume 5, I'm glad they've made something unusual. -- Altes 09:59, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
            • They should have given him a power that dealt with force fields or something like that and not RCR. Sylar was cooler when he wasn't invincible as he actually thought about his plans, instead of just charging in. -Vampirate68 14:01, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
              • I agree. I hate how Sylar keeps looking for redemtion. Here is the new line; Sylar, Claire, and Gretchen= good guys. Peter, Emma, Matt, Hiro, Edgar= good guys that get bullied around to the point of being bad guys. Samuel= bad guy, with his block headed Eli friends and all. HRG is questionable, like always. It's a shame. Sylar made such a good bad guy, he was sick and twisted and even a bit mad. Samuel is way to level headed to be bad as$. But you are right, Sylar and Peter were way to powerful (and they went kill-joy on Peter's power), and the only ones that he realy uses are Telekinesis and Regenarating. There needs to be some cool twist to his power, like to keep all his abilities he has to kill someone once a week, or something like that.--Dance4thedead 14:11, 6 February 2010 (EST)
  • Samuel is FAR from level-headed. He sank a town because his girlfriend didn't want to live with him, destroyed his birth home because someone was rude to him, wrecked a police station because they killed someone he didn't even know, and plans to murder thousands of people so he and his kind can be respected and feared. I'd say Sylar's far more mentally stable then he is, and that's including the psychopathy and hunger. Swm 15:05, 6 February 2010 (EST)

this will be good against transportation and space-time manipulation

Freezing could be the only way of killing somebody with transportation and space time manipulation but only if the person has not had time to respond. 50000JH

If the person has no time to respond, a bullet can do the job too. Mateussf 13:27, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
Or phasing, if you can sneak up to the person. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
Well doesn't that apply to anything? If you've got the element of surprise, you don't even need a power to kill an evolved human! I don't think Hiro would respond well to a knife in the back. With Rapid Cell Regeneration and Impenetrable Skin being exceptions, of course :P--Kooliki 22:04, 3 October 2009 (EDT)

In the sense of abilities. --50000JH 10:08, 1 October 2009 (EDT)50000JH

Tracy issue

Okay. The reason for my thinking is that Tracy is no longer limited to just freezing things, she can now transform her entire body into water and project water (Similar to Water Mimicry). I would suggest Hydrokinesis because by definition, it is the control over water (including temperature). The only reason I think Tracy should be classified as having a different power is because no other character has displayed the same aspects of her ability. The other characters with the ability Freezing have only demonstrated the ability to lower the temperature of selected targets. Tracy, on the other hand, can mimic, control, and freeze water. Proposition for a name change/merge/creation of a new ability should wait until season 4 starts, but I'm just throwing this out there now. Comments?--Bender 21:08, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

  • Tracy can also freeze objects that contain no water, so I'd rather say she has two different powers - freezing and water mimicry. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
    • Just a theory, but maybe she makes some water infiltrate the object before freezing it. Mateussf 16:08, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
      • No need for such a giant title, I've shrinked it. Now for the subject, I do agree that Tracy's ability no longer fits freezing as it is, but seeing that no other water mimics (Elisa, Essex, liquid man) showed cold and ice related abilities, I don't think Tracy should be moved over to water mimicry. That still leaves the issue of what to call her ability, so far she's shown water mimicry effects and freezing effects, accounting for control over water and temperature (since she has frozen things without water). I fear we may end up with "Tracy's ability". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:42, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
        • Whats bad about Hydrokinesis?-- By Danko CH 16:45, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
          • Yeah, Hydrokinesis sounds good.Catalyst · Talk · HL 16:46, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
            • It doesn't cover the freezing part of her ability, not entirely. She has frozen things that had no water in it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:18, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
              • Such as...(flowers and people contain water)-- By Danko CH 17:23, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
                • IE is right. She did freeze the tag on her stolen clothes in Cold Snap. I guess Hydrokinesis isn't the best name for it.Catalyst · Talk · HL 17:28, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
                  • A shame I like it-- By Danko CH 17:35, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
                    • She also froze her telephone when she panicked over killing the reporter, when she was trying to turn herself in. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:19, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
                      • Let's not forget that there is water in the very air we breathe so, there is water (however little there may be) on all the objects that have been frozen by Tracy, so Hydrokinesis is not a totally invalid name to call the ability she possesses. However, I would also propose Hydro-cryokinesis to deal with the "freezing" aspect of her ability if you think that the small amount of water idea is too far fetched. --Bender 21:58, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Regarding a name change: we were given a name for Tracy's ability in a canon source. We can redefine the limits of her ability and tell how it's evolved, but I really don't think we should change the name of it until we have some confirmation that that the power is actually a different or new power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
    • The best way to exaplain it is that her ability has never been freezing, though it looked a lot like it due to ability homology. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:50, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
      • Or maybe we should leave it as freezing after all. Edward can also produce electrical arcs with his ability, although it seems to have no connection with seeing the variables of situations and moving oneself to the selected outcome. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
        • Actually, there is. By moving himself to the location so fast, he could pick up a lot of stactic electricity through friction, normally that would do anything (otherwise Daphne could also zap people), but since his ability involves probability, he can use probability to make the unlikely likely and so on. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:13, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
      • Explaining the phenomenon with the idea that Tracy never had the ability of freezing at all is not a good idea at all. Her power has been confirmed to be freezing numerous times. She definitely froze things. Her power is now evolving. She does not have a new power, just a power that has new limits and capabilities. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:14, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
        • Thing is, becoming water makes no sense in an ability named freezing. It's related to it, but it doesn't go with the name. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:39, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Water manipulation or H2O manipulation (so noob-like) would fit if her ability really is evolving from Solid(Freezing) -> Liquid (Water) -> Then definitely the end will be Gas.
Reply to Danko: "Such as...(flowers and people contain water)."
  • When Tracy tried to drown Noah inside a car. She manage to seal the car by freezing the holes with ice. (By "holes", I mean anything that would cause the water to come out) --NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 16:33, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
  • I think Tracy should be removed from this page and given her own ability page. Clearly she can do more than freze things. Like IE said, this seems like a case of Ability Homology. Her power seemed like freezing, but was actually that and more. Unless we completely rename this page and note the fact that James Walker and Sylar never advanced their abilities as far as Tracy... --Skullman1392 01:30, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Tracy has been confirmed to have an ability called "freezing". We shouldn't be determining whether or not she has the same ability as others, but what the limits of the ability are. Similarly, we wouldn't remove Arthur from the page about telepathy simply because he hasn't cast an illusion, or Maury from the page because he hasn't painted the future. Abilities develop for some characters, but the name of the ability doesn't change. That doesn't mean we should remove the character from the page, either--it means we update the limits of the ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:59, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Well then, the limits need to be updated, if we're leaving them all on the same page. I would do it, but I don't really know how to write it... --Skullman1392 11:59, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
  • I appreciate the fact that we follow Canon sources to name abilities, however, leaving it as simply Freezing defies Canon sources when you think about it. Yes, Canon-ly, we have a source which states her power is "Freezing" but surely the episodes which have displayed that her ability is more than simply Freezing are also Canon sources? Canon sources are listed as simply 'episodes'- well episodes have shown she can do more than Freeze so...--Evil Maldini 15:46, 25 December 2009 (EST)
  • I always assumed that Tracy can controll water - and freezing water IS controlling water. So in season 3 she simply didn't have access to her full potential --Sebi 12:05, 9 January 2010 (EST)

I like the H2O manipulation: water is normally the liquid name and ice the solid name so H20 manipulation. User50000JH 15:57, 16 January 2010 (EST)

Prodigals, part 1

The graphic novel clearly states she has water and ice manipulation abilities, can we now change the name to cold water and ice manipulation. daevon 07:28, 17 November 2009 (EST)

  • The graphic novel doesn't state that, but the intro page does. The intro page is not written by any of the writers or graphic novel crew, so it isn't a canon source. --Radicell 07:31, 17 November 2009 (EST)
    • It is a more accurate name for her ability than the one we currently have though. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:54, 17 November 2009 (EST)
      • I agree, I think Tracy's power should be Water and ice manipulation. It does indeed describe her power in more detail than Freezing does. I know many people aren't fans of splitting pages, but I've been thinking her power should be categorized as something other than Freezing since we learned she could manipulate and mimic water as well. --Bender 17:47, 17 November 2009 (EST)
        • water and ice manipulation sounds the most accurate. It describes her ability best. daevon 18:55, 17 November 2009 (EST)
          • I'm very torn because I really like the name "water and ice manipulation". However, I also believe that we should stick to canon (and near-canon) sources. The introduction to a graphic novel is not such a source. Nathan's files, as seen in Dual, are a canon source. Begrudgingly, I think we should keep "freezing" until we receive a canon or near-canon source that renames the ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:57, 17 November 2009 (EST)

This has been discussed elsewhere, but it deffinately applies here: This section states:

  • When a possible name for an ability appears in a canon, near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications
  • As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability.

Freezing is only an aspect of her ability and does not fully describe what she can do. Therefore Freezing is not and accurate name for her ability. It describes James Walker's ability fully, but Tracy needs to be split from this page and given a new ability page (saying that James Walker was/would be able to mimic and control water is as speculative as saying that Rachel Mills will learn to control time as well). This page does not need a name change, but Tracy needs to have a new ability page called Water and ice manipulation. --Skullman1392 00:49, 18 November 2009 (EST)

I think Skullman has a point, because the Company named Jeremy's ability before he discovered he could drain life - therefore, his power is more than just a "healing touch". Tracy's ability was named before she was shattered by Danko, so her ability is more than freezing, too. But still, I'm opposed against renaming any of these abilities, because there are other examples when a name doesn't properly describe an ability - gravitation manipulation, electric manipulation etc. These names are too wide, and the possessors of these abilities displayed very few effects. And it's okay... Dura canon, sed canon. Let it be. Green.gif AltesUTC CH

  • I wanna draw some attention to how the intro page worded it. "Finally finding acceptance and freedom with her water and ice manipulation abilities." Abilities. With an S. I think we can keep Freezing and add a Water manipulation page, and accept that she has two separate (though connected) abilities. This extra page would also include Donald Essex since he can do more than just mimic water properties.--Riddler 01:37, 18 November 2009 (EST)
    • I believe there were other examples like "telepathic abilities" or "healing abilities", I should look for them Green.gif AltesUTC CH
  • It should also be noted that an intro has been used to name an ability. Talk:Bone_spike_protrusion. I don't see why it wouldn't apply here.--OutbackZack 05:57, 18 November 2009 (EST)
    • The difference is that with the spikes, the GN source was a higher level than the previous name ("spike protrusion", which was a descriptive name). However, here we already have a level-1 name ("freezing"), which cannot change unless another level-1 name shows up. --Radicell 06:02, 18 November 2009 (EST)
      • But the level 1 name is outdated. It can only apply to her ability up until that point. Afterwards her ability has drastically change and a new description has been released. Even if it is a level 2 source. We need to not only factor in the level of the sources, but the time of reference as well.This isn't the first time we went from a level 1 to a level 2 Talk:Electric_manipulation --OutbackZack 06:05, 18 November 2009 (EST)
        • I'm all for "Water and Ice manipulation", Freezing on Nathan's files was correct at that time, but has since been outdated with the development of the ability. And if someone doesn't know exactly what an ability is, their say shouldn't count as cannon. Take Edgar for example, he calls Peter an empath, meaning he has empathic mimicry, although we all know that he has ability replication. He got it wrong. --mc_hammark 15:05, 18 November 2009 (EST)
          • I want to repeat that I believe we can create a page for Water manipulation and keep Freezing as it is, include Donald Essex on the Water manipulation page, and accept that Tracy has two connected abilities and put her on both pages.--Riddler 18:10, 18 November 2009 (EST)
            • I would be all for it too. Anything to make it clear that "freezing" isn't her only ability. --OutbackZack 18:18, 18 November 2009 (EST)
              • I don't go with that, it would be the same as saying she has two abilities. No one has more than one natural ability. What she does have is an ability with multiple effects. Matt has telepathy, yet he can make others do as he wishes, make people forget stuff, make people see stuff is not there, make people don't see stuff it is there, see the future... It's the same with Tracy, though the link with between the different effects of her ability aren't as clear. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:27, 18 November 2009 (EST)
              • I would be in favour of this change, simply because it's a more accurate name for her ability then the current one. The fact the older name is used in an episode shouldn't really matter if that name is clearly unsuited for the purpose, as it seems to be here. For example, let's say Danko has the ability of Pyrokinesis, which has been clearly demonstrated. An episode names it as being Freezing, while it's called Pyrokinesis in a GN. Should we follow the pyramid and use what would clearly be a very wrong name, just because it's been in an episode? Clearly not. Why, then, would we do it here? The difference in names is less extreme, but ultimately it's a case of the same thing- less canonical but more accurate (Water/Ice Manipulation), vs more canonical and less accurate (Freezing). Radicell and Ryan's stance seems to lead to the latter, but since the ultimate goal of these articles seems to be to be as accurate as possible, I suggest we opt for the former. Not least because the point about Nathan's files, and the Company's AT for Jeremy being true at that time has merit. They were correct at the time because, as far as the authors knew, that was all they could do. Since they've since been proven wrong in that belief, at least in Tracy's case, the names we use shouldn't cling to them. That's my opinion, anyway. Swm 18:19, 19 November 2009 (EST)
                • I agreed renaming Tracy's ability into "Water and Ice Manipulation", but I think the Freezing page should stay since James Walker have it and Sylar have it in season 1.--Darkfiremaster13 00:10, 4 December 2009 (EST)
                  • AGREE --01:24, 4 December 2009 (EST)
                    • I second that. daevon 01:50, 5 December 2009 (EST)

Page renaming

I think we should change name of this ability to cryokinesis.

  • This has been discussed many times. Look around in this page for the answers other received.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 11:51, 28 November 2009 (EST)

Split Article

I'm sorry, but this talk thing is to confusing. So I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but i think we should split the articles like what they might be doing with Jeremy's ability. Because obviously these abilities are different, and the name freezing doesn't cover all of the things Tracy can do. --Scorvi12 02:21, 9 December 2009 (EST)

  • I agree, because on the naming convention page it says that: "When a possible name for an ability appears in a canon, near-canon, or secondary source, it is important to consider whether the name describes the ability itself or merely one or more of its effects or applications: 1) Some abilities allow for multiple effects; for example, Hiro's ability allows him to manipulate space-time, with separate effects of teleportation, time-travel, and chronokinesis. While all of these names have appeared in various sources (teleportation and time travel in canon sources, chronokinesis in a secondary source), each describes only an aspect of his ability. Therefore, none of the three can be considered a canon source name for his ability as a whole; 2) As a general rule, for a possible name to be considered the name of an ability, it should include at least all aspects of the ability which have been displayed; otherwise, it is considered to be the name of an aspect or effect of the ability; 3) Such a name may also include or imply aspects of the ability which have not yet been seen. This differs from a descriptive name, which should not imply aspects of the ability which have not been seen. So long as the name provided includes all that is known, it can be assumed to be a canon, near-canon, or secondary source name, and should be treated accordingly." --Darkfiremaster13 00:06, 10 December 2009 (EST)
  • Okay, the writers have told us several times that abilities can manifest in different ways. What's happening with Tracy is pretty clearly (to me at least) that she is able to freeze things as normal, but after freezing herself solid, is able to liquify herself. Her main power is still freezing. Suddenly everyone is majorly gung-ho about splitting off articles when there's no reason to jump the gun. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 22:59, 25 December 2009 (EST)
    • I agree, the name Freezing really does explain her entire ability so well. --OutbackZack 23:58, 25 December 2009 (EST)
      • I think it's fine the way it is. Until we get a canon source that says her ability is something other than freezing, there's no reason to change it. The show isn't here to help us, we're here to help the show. If that makes any sense. --Piemanmoo 01:16, 26 December 2009 (EST)
        • How does it help the show to leave her ability as Freezing? Sure most people who are on the wiki have seen the show and thus know Tracy does more than freeze things, but I think it is extremely important to make the information on the wiki understandable to a newcomer. Follow me for a minute: a newcomer is on the site and reading an article that mentions how Tracy "floods Noah's car" and the words "floods Noah's car" form a link to her ability. The newcomer would click on the link, which would lead him to a page titled "Freezing". This would confuse the heck out of the newcomer. What does flooding some guy's car have to do with freezing things?! This causes much confusion for the person. Now, if "floods Noah's car" links to a page titled "Water and ice manipulation", that makes much more sense. Flooding his car, oh, she can manipulate water, I get it. But if we blindly follow an outdated source, we cause confusion, and how does that help the show? Changing cases such as these would help the show, by making the show more understandable and less confusing when presented on the wiki. --Skullman1392 03:34, 26 December 2009 (EST)
        • It's a slipperely slope. We make exceptions for this one ability for the naming conventions, then all our hard work could come tumbling down. I say we press harder for the BTE questions to be about ability names. Only then should we be able to change the names of ability with canon names.--Piemanmoo 04:06, 26 December 2009 (EST)
          • If someone sees "floods Noah's car", then sees the page is titled "Freezing", they can continue reading the page to see how this ability is capable of that. I think you are vastly underestimating the overall intelligence of the random site visitor. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:16, 26 December 2009 (EST)
            • I never said the random visitor couldn't keep reading, but there is still that initial confusion. And even if said visitor continues reading, does that mean it makes any sense to him or her? Why on God's green earth would anybody name an ability that gives the user control over water and the ability to freeze objects simply Freezing? It makes no logical sense whatsoever (and to be completely honest, it makes us as a wiki look ignorant). --Skullman1392 05:08, 26 December 2009 (EST)
              • I have to agree with Skullman. It's not clear what's happened to Tracy's power (I suscribe to the thesis that her power was always water manipulation, but all she could do at first was freeze it), but Freezing (the ability to decrease the temperature of matter) is not an accurate name for what Tracy can do. May I also point out we have another canon source that gives her a power a different name (from the Prodigals GNs), so why not use a slightly-less-canon (on an arbitrary scale, remember) name that fits the power far better? Swm 06:32, 26 December 2009 (EST)
                • I agree --Darkfiremaster13 00:10, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                • Actually, the phrase "water and ice manipulation" came from the description before the GN. For starters, GNs are considered near-canon (while episodes are considered canon, obviously), and the descriptions on the comics are not always written by Heroes writers (and in many cases are written by NBC staff). It could be outright incorrect. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 01:00, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                  • Like that honestly stopped us from using them to name abilities. --OutbackZack 01:28, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                    • When we've had no other alternatives, perhaps. Can you give me an example of an ability named because of a GN intro? --Ricard Desi (t,c) 02:40, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                      • Bone spike protrusion (btw sorry that it comes off as external, idk how to link internal)--OutbackZack 03:00, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                        • All Under the Bridge, Part 2 says is that he sends bone spikes in every direction, a description (when "spike protrusion" was already a suggested ability name). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:10, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                          • And if not for the description at the beginning of the GN specifying that the spikes were bone, the name would still be Spike protrusion. So, yes, the name does come from the description (if not extlicitly). --Skullman1392 04:29, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                            • But you're talking about the ultimately miniscule detail that the spikes he protrudes are in fact bone, not an entirely different ability in action. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:33, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                              • Where has it ever been stated that her ability is an entirely different one from before? Both examples show more about their respective abilities. Therefore, both examples should change the name of the abilities based on new information. Not to say that it wasn't known Tracy could manipulate water before Prodigals, but where else has it been so explicitly stated?--Skullman1392 05:11, 27 December 2009 (EST)
                        • (And to link internally, you would do something like this: [[Bone spike protrusion]] and it'll look like this: Bone spike protrusion) --Ricard Desi (t,c) 04:12, 27 December 2009 (EST)
  • The name "water and ice manipulation" is clearly not outright incorrect. We've seen her manipulate both ice and water. It's perfectly accurate, and so it's irrelevent whether it was written by a Heroes writer or an NBC staff writer (and impossible to check). Yes, Freezing is technically higher up the hierarchy, but it now only describes an aspect of her power, like Healing touch with Jeremy. Therefore, it's invalid as a name for Tracy's power, and should only be used until we have an alternative. We now have said alternative, so we should use it. Swm 06:22, 27 December 2009 (EST)
    • We've always considered the GNs description as a secondary source; so "water and ice manipulation"'s canon level is indeed lower than that of GNs or episodes, but still better than a fan-created term. Regardless, as splitting/renaming Tracy's ability is directly connected with issues with the naming conventions, it's better to redirect this discussion to the current debate (see here) on whether or not to alter the naming conventions.--Referos 10:48, 27 December 2009 (EST)
  • I think that the pages should definately be split into "Freezing" and "Water and Ice Manipulation". The reason being that this description describes all aspects of Tracy's ability and not just the freezing/ice part. Even though the term freezing was shown on the show which is a primary canon source it is outdated because this was before Tracy's ability evolved into her control of water. The graphic novel while being a secondary canon source is more recent and describes all aspects of her ability. I think it's better to change the name because this way it describes everything she can do and not just a portion of it.--Heroesfan110 2:48, 3 January 2010 (EST)
  • Split! the Canon information (which I think we're too hung up on) is outdated. Surely in-show experts would reclassify her ability given the new information that we've seen. "Water and ice manipulation" sounds good to me. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:43, 18 January 2010 (EST)

Unofficial poll

Sorry to do this, but I've seen this unofficial poll everywhere in this wiki (on pages that was nominated for name change)

Keep at Freezing

  1. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 08:38, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  2. --Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs | 08:53, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  3. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:23, 10 January 2010 (EST)
  4. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) I believe we should use the names that are given to us, even if they're not perfect.
  5. -- Dean 22:41, 22 January 2010 (EST)

Split the page into Freezing and Water and Ice Manipulation

  1. --Darkfiremaster13 23:57, 8 January 2010 (EST) (Same as what the others are saying, let's split the page since we already do it on Ando and Paulette)
  2. --Skullman1392 01:48, 9 January 2010 (EST) Ando and Paulette were split, but Tracy and James aren't? Doesn't make sense to me.
  3. --Hiroman 09:40, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  4. --Swm 05:58, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  5. --Catalyst · Talk · HL 09:35, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  6. --TanderixUTCR 16:25 (Italy), 9 January 2010 (EST) (James Walker freezing and Tracy Strayss Water and Ice Manupulation)
  7. --Sebi 12:13, 9 January 2010 (EST) (same as Tanderix)
  8. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:56, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  9. -- daevon 15:59, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  10. --Boom D  12  16:10, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  11. --PUSHPIPE 16:17, 13 January 2010 (EST)
  12. --Leckie -- Talk 16:22, 13 January 2010 (EST)
  13. --Ratclaws 17:36, 13 January 2010 (EST)
  14. --Scorvi12 23:01, 15 January 2010 (EST) - If Ando and Paulette's abilities are being split, then so should Tracy and James.
  15. --mc_hammark 07:45, 16 January 2010 (EST)
  16. --Heroesfan110 17:00, 17 January 2010 (EST)
  17. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2010 (EST) the outdated name would surely be changed to something like this by an in-show expert if one were in a position to.
  18. --"The Listener" I think it should be changed and I am gonna make a page to show this? Enough people support it PLUS Ability augmentation and Red lightning were split without consensus so I think this is fair???? any objections?
  19. --ERROR 22:40, 21 January 2010 (EST) - For all reasons stated above. Also, if Tracy's ability was the same as James Walker's ability, you'd think Sylar would have done the things Tracy has done, i.e. water mimicry. That would have been very useful for him to have, yet he didn't use it. The only conclusion, therefore, is that he could not have done those things.
    Honestly, I feel like the intense heat torture, followed up by her cold snap, is what caused Tracy's ability to evolve. She was put into such an extreme situation, that her ability was forced to evolve in some way to survive. Had Sylar been put through the same, he might have evolved as well, but he had freezing for only 35 days before he lost it. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:22, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    I agree. I don't see her developments as an entirely new ability; I see it has her reversing her ability. Freezing makes water solid, turning things (including herself) into liquid would be the reverse of that. "Poison emission" does not account for absorbing poison, which would be considered the "reverse" of that ability, but we use the name regardless. Now, I'm not suggesting that's a bulletproof argument, I'm just sharing my particular view on the matter.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:20, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    Still the same ability, but the name wouldn't account for it. Using the poison emission example, it's just emit and absorb. Water isn't just water and something else. If Tracy's ability was what she had and the opposite she'd have temperature manipulation, freezing things and heating things. Her ability is about water, be it liquid or solid, and who knows, maybe even vapor, but that is for the next power upgrade if she ever gets it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:45, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    Freezing makes things solid, the reverse of that would be turning something into liquid. But I was only offering a personal opinion above.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:14, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    Actually, freezing things slows down the atoms/molecules to a slower rate of movement, which can have the effect of turning liquids into solids. --mc_hammark 17:17, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    I never said that it didn't....--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 17:18, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    No, you said it makes things solid, which it doesn't always... some things are already solid and they don't become solid. If anything, by looking at physics, the opposite of freezing would be heat generation by speeding the molecules up, which would result in solid things melting, and the water would evaporate into gas. --mc_hammark 17:32, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    That's depending on how her power works, it looks like she just freezes water in or around an object, and doesn't directly manipulate molecular movement. Regardless, I never meant the above to be a debatable point, I was simply stating my opinion.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:45, 22 January 2010 (EST)
    I'm in favor of the split, but that explanation of freezing is not exactly correct. Without getting into phase diagrams, densities and pressures and what's going on at a molecular level, freezing (except in one case...liquid helium) denotes a phase change from liquid to solid, due to lowering of temperature. You don't 'freeze' a solid, because that does not represent any phase change. --Stevehim 23:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  20. --heroesobsession 17:14, 10 February 2010 (EST)
  21. --Stevehim 23:58, 10 February 2010 (EST) I believe once liquid water was involved, freezing no longer describes the ability.

Image

Should we use this image?

Powers Tracy Freezing Flower.jpg

-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:57, 15 January 2010 (EST)

Surely If...

Surely if Ando and Paulette's abilities were split, Tracy and James' deserves to be split! --Scorvi12 04:55, 18 January 2010 (EST)

I agree, let's split Tracy and James ability. --Darkfiremaster13 06:31, 18 January 2010 (EST)

  • Difference is an explicit "expert-given" name for Tracy's ability.--Riddler 08:11, 18 January 2010 (EST)
    • But, it was given before her ability had evolved into having control over and becoming water/ice. --Scorvi12 08:16, 18 January 2010 (EST)
    • Who said Nathan is an expert on ability names? --Skullman1392 11:46, 18 January 2010 (EST)
      • An explicit name is of no value if it fails to accurately describe the ability in question. I favour a split. Swm 11:52, 18 January 2010 (EST)
        • Out of the Heroes "reality", Nathan did not come up with Freezing in those files he handed to the president. The writers or whoever said freezing because it was near an entire volume until they chose to giver her water mimicry. Those files on her seem pretty clear that they are out of date.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 11:55, 18 January 2010 (EST)
          • Seem pretty clear that they're out of date. We don't know for sure. The difference between Tracy and James/Ando and Paulette is that, since freezing is an actual phenomenon in the real world, it was pretty easy to tell that James and Tracy had the same ability at first, whereas something like "ability supercharging" is not something to can be clearly observed to be the same, if that makes any sense. Also, neither Ando or Paulette had their ability explicitly named, but Tracy did.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 13:10, 18 January 2010 (EST)
            • Ando's ablity was like Paulette with an addition of its property to act as an electricity. Ando was the "charger" and the evolved human was the "appliances", an appliance like a cellphone was needed to be charge with electricity to be used. On Heroes case he amplify the ability of others through the electricity that he produce, but like normal electricity it was dangerous to normal people that's why his ability was dangerous to normal people but can help the evolved one. --Darkfiremaster13 00:12, 19 January 2010 (EST)

Weakness

Since Tracey has evloved her ability to water, I wonder what is her weakness, since it is like Claire Healing ability but better.--50000JH 16:37, 19 January 2010 (EST)

Thank you for answering the question, I feel bad for disagreeing with some of your descisions and I don't blame you if you say why did you ask it then. I see Telekinesis and telepathy could work against puppet master as it doesn't stop the thoughts only their movements. This is just a thought because she activates the ability using her thoughts than her actions so she is not using an action she could turn into water. Even through it been shown on the show Elle electrocuting when Kyle pour water on her this in my experience is false. In school I remember doing an experiment, where we had two metal or carbon rods, a battery water in a bowl and a bulb which was connected with Crocidle clips and wires, just using pure water with no minerals to ionzise the water in the bolw, the light didn't conduct, but when salt was added the light bulb did as it sodium in the water. Heating and Mircowaving she just evorapates and just condensate and cool back into water. Sorry I should put this in the question, Claire had a spot in which she could be killed, do you think Tracey would have anything similiar.--50000JH 11:52, 20 January 2010 (EST)